Jump to content
The Education Forum

Recommended Posts

Let us now see how the problem of the camera not being on the inventory, and the film discrepancy was solved. More from DB 2:

On December 8, two weeks after the Paine household search was concluded, with three cameras already in evidence, Robert Oswald picked up a box of Oswald's articles at Ruth Paine's house. Inside this box was the Imperial Reflex camera, which did use 620 roll film.

When the policemen who searched the house were asked about this camera, four of five said they did not see it during the search. And they did recall going through many boxes. Robert kept the camera for over two months. On February 24, he turned it over to the FBI. On February 1, Marina said the Cuera and the Stereo Realist appeared to be Oswald's two cameras. On February 19, Marina now said she could not recognize the Stereo Realist. Then , on February 25, when shown the newly retrieved Imperial Reflex, she now said it was Oswald's. In the interval between the February 1 and February 19 FBI interviews, Marina had temporarily lived with Robert Oswald, who had the Imperial Reflex at that time. On August 12, the Stereo Realist camera was finally given to Ruth Paine, who said it was hers. Apparently, she never looked for it in that entire six month time span. (DB 2, p. 202-03)

Edited by James DiEugenio

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

More about the Walker Note:

On December 4, five days after she delivered Oswald's "Walker Note" in Marina's book, Ruth Paine was visited by two Secret Service agents. They were returning the "Walker Note" since they thought it was from her. (Recall Marina's grand jury testimony about the Secret Service suspecting Ruth was associated with the CIA.) Ruth said she had not seen it before. But she now used this opportunity to give the agents even more exhibits. As in the Walker instance, these would help the FBI and Warren Commission bolster another dubious part of their case: namely that Oswlad had been to Mexico City prior to returning to Dallas in early October.

Ruth said the following items were found in her home, more specifically in the chest of drawers used by Marina. One was "Rules for Betting card used at a thoroughbred racetrack. A second item was a Spanish-English dictionary with a handwritten notation, "watch jai-lai game." (DB 2, p. 203)

Hmm, the Dallas Police sure missed a lot of evidence over their two day and 11 hour search of the Paine residence, didn't they? But it did not matter. Because Ruthie was there to back stop them.

Edited by James DiEugenio

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Please do not miss the obvious point in all this:

The so called "Walker note", the photo of Walker's house, and the first person to name Oswald as taking part int he Walker shooting (Mike Paine) , all these come from Ruth and Michael Paine.

As noted above, when the case about Oswald in Mexico was getting weak, Ruth was there for that also.

And when Hoover needed someone to get rid of the Minox camera, he told local agent Bardwell Odum one of the people he should talk to was Ruth Paine. And boy did she come through for J. Edgar on that one also.

So please, the whole put upon Quaker charity, Good Samaritan act wears thin in the face of facts. Which lead us to the conclusion that perhaps no one was more instrumental in making the (ersatz) case against Oswald than Ruth and Michael Paine.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Rest assured Trejo will miss the point, or spin it his way. Paul - when it comes to the Paines, there are too damn many coincidences. Know anyone else whose family is so thoroughly CIA connected? Don't know of any other Christian do-gooders who were up to no good? The world is teeming with examples.

The files which were collected from the Paines household which somehow disappeared you prefer to think never existed. So you trust what the DPD put in evidence eventually but not the extemporaneous list of stuff they say they gathered? Isn't that backwards? We know that Hoover took charge of any and all evidence. Isn't it more likely that the 6-7 boxes of files were deep-sixed? Aren't you curious what they contained and who they belonged too?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Paul

I tend to believe, as you do, that Ruth Paine was an innocent (albeit close) bystander to the events of Nov. 22.

<snip>

Note left by Oswald.---On December 2, 1963, Mrs. Ruth Paine turned over to the police some of the Oswalds' belongings, including a Russian volume entitled "Book of Useful Advice." In this book was an undated note written in Russian. In translation, the note read as follows:

<snip>

James C. Cadigan, FBI handwriting expert, testified that this note was written by Lee Harvey Oswald.

Jim root

Jim, thanks for chiming in here. I'm glad to see a lot of activity and discussion on Ruth Paine. I hope to address all of these points in the days to come. My copy of James DiEugenio's 2012 edition of DB is on its way.

As for this very important note, written by LHO to Marina on the night he want to shoot Walker, we have James DiEugenio and others here claiming that Ruth Paine herself forged it!

Greg Parker's name was raised last week on the topic of Ruth Paine, and months ago I confronted him on this very issue. Greg has a friend who is also a Russian translator, who analyzed the errors in the Walker Note, compared with the errors in LHO's letters written in Russia -- and concluded that there were more errors in the Walker Note -- suggesting a possibility that two different writers could be involved.

Greg Parker's friend added, however, that this was very preliminary analysis, and urged lots more analysis. Greg Parker, however, sped past that last part, and concluded -- on the basis of "expert" evidence, that the Walker Note wasn't written by LHO.

My objection was this -- if a person was in a hurry, or worried or nervous, about to commit a crime and perhaps get arrested -- is it not possible that a person in that situation might make more grammatical errors in a Note than usual?

I was never offered an answer. Of course, the key in this case is that Handwriting Experts have already analyzed the Walker Note, and have demonstrated scientifically that the handwriting did belong to LHO.

It's settled for science -- but it's not settled for those who have an irrational bias against Ruth Paine.

Regards,

--Paul Trejo

Edited by Paul Trejo

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Rest assured Trejo will miss the point, or spin it his way. Paul - when it comes to the Paines, there are too damn many coincidences. Know anyone else whose family is so thoroughly CIA connected? Don't know of any other Christian do-gooders who were up to no good? The world is teeming with examples.

The files which were collected from the Paines household which somehow disappeared you prefer to think never existed. So you trust what the DPD put in evidence eventually but not the extemporaneous list of stuff they say they gathered? Isn't that backwards?

We know that Hoover took charge of any and all evidence. Isn't it more likely that the 6-7 boxes of files were deep-sixed? Aren't you curious what they contained and who they belonged too?

Well, Paul B., I'm interested in facts, and not in mere suspicion. "Too damn many coincidences" simply isn't a good legal case. In fact, it's only somebody's opinion that these are coincidences in the first place.

As for the alleged files collected from the Paines household -- Ruth Paine identified them for the public. They consisted of two boxes of Folk Dance records, two boxes of her old college papers, one box of Lee Harvey Oswald's FPCC fliers brought from New Orleans, and one box containing a 35mm film projector.

People who project their suspicions onto Ruth Paine should be ashamed. If you believe there are "six filing cabinets" full of Cuban Sympathizer files -- then show us a photograph of them. There were plenty photographs taken. But no. Not one single photograph of the alleged six filing cabinets.

If there were any such files -- even one single Rolodex -- then it came from the offices of Guy Banister, where LHO worked -- and who kept a large file of Cuban Sympathizers at 544 Camp Street. That was his main business. If (and only if) those were found, and are now missing, it's because the FBI has been hiding *everything* that belonged to Guy Banister.

Jim Garrison himself proved that. As I say, I don't agree with Garrison's conclusions, but many of his findings were golden.

And Jim Garrison never brought one single charge against Ruth Paine. So, I think people here are barking up the wrong tree -- however, I'm very pleased to look at all the issues, one at a time.

Regards,

--Paul Trejo

Edited by Paul Trejo

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

quote Paul Trejo: "My objection was this -- if a person was in a hurry, or worried or nervous, about to commit a crime and perhaps get arrested"

like if you shot the president unlike the cool calm collected unflappable harvey oswald

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

quote Paul Trejo: "My objection was this -- if a person was in a hurry, or worried or nervous, about to commit a crime and perhaps get arrested"

like if you shot the president unlike the cool calm collected unflappable harvey oswald

Well, Martin, I deny that LHO shot the President. On *that* day LHO had nothing to be worried about -- or so he thought.

Regards,

--Paul Trejo

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Let me quote from Destiny Betrayed, second edition, on the so called Walker Note:

The Dallas authorities had spent a large part of two days looking through Ruth's home for evidence against Oswald. Their inventory list was 49 pages long. Somehow they missed a note which was inside a book. It was a note allegedly written by Oswald in Russian, which ominously tells Marina what to do if he was in jail, and how to find him there. Why did Ruth produce this book at the time?

She said Marina had to have two books with her. One was entitled Our Child and the other was Book of Helpful Instructions. She had to have them since Marina used them each day. (This while Marina was being detained at a hotel and under 24 hour watch by the FBI and Secret Service.) The note was then found in the latter book by the Secret Service. The note was not dated and did not have Oswald's latent fingerprints on it. This even though the note took up almost one side of a sheet of paper. But also interesting is this: the FBI did happen to take seven latent fingerprints off the note; yet none of them match Lee or Marina. Prior to this, the police had retrieved photos of the exterior of Walker's house from Ruth Paine's garage. It was the confluence of these three elements--the news article, the photo, and the note--that provoked the FBI to take a new look at the Walker Case. Yet even Wesley Liebeler of the Warren Commission asked an obvious question: Why would Oswald keep the incriminating note and photos around for well over seven months? (pgs. 200-01)

The pictures of the outside of Walker's home, along with the famous backyard photographs...both were found at the Paine home. The official story maintains that both photos were taken with an Imperial Reflex camera. Now, during its two searches, the police confiscated three cameras. They were listed on their November 23rd inventory report. One was an American made Stereo Realist. One was a 35 mm Russian camera called a Cuera. The third was listed as a small German camera with with black case and chain. The last was the miniature Minox spy camera which, as we shall see, the FBI desperately wanted to go away.

There was an evidentiary problem here in relation to the photos. All three cameras produced pictures equivalent to 35 mm photos. Yet the photos in evidence were developed on 620 roll film. (p. 203)

Thanks, James, for continuing this particular debate about the WALKER NOTE, which I regard as one of the most important issues of the JFK assassination. Also, thanks for quoting from the 2nd edition of DB, which is still on the way from amazon.com for me.

I find nothing suspicious in the Dallas Police missing a note inside a book. After all -- these guys took two boxes of Folk Dance records, two boxes of college papers, a box of LHO's FPCC fliers, and a box containing a 35mm projector, and logged it as "six filing cabinets full of pro-Castro Cuban names."

The DPD were about as efficient as the Keystone Kops -- only not as polite, according to Ruth Paine.

Anyway, it is famously called the WALKER NOTE (or the WALKER LETTER). It is written in longhand, and a US Government expert concluded it was LHO's handwriting.

But that's not good enough for those who wish to blame the JFK murder on Ruth Paine, the Quaker Charity lady.

OK, let's see the actual issues grounding the accusations.

(1.0) Why did Ruth produce this book at this time?

(1.1) Because Marina Oswald wasn't permitted to return to Irving where she had left all her clothes, all her baby clothes, all her materials.

(1.2) Ruth Paine prepared a number of Care Packages for Marina Oswald, including household items she needed and requested. Ruth gave these Care Packages to the Irving Police to give to the Dallas Police to give to the Secret Service to give to Marina Oswald. One of the items in that package was a Russian book on "Household Hints" and child care.

(1.3) Ruth Paine was astounded when two Secret Service men came to her door the next day -- angry and rude -- and accused Ruth Paine of trying to send a "coded message" to Marina Oswald.

(1.4) Of course Ruth denied it -- it was a false accusation. She never saw it before in her life. End of story. The Secret Service didn't even let her read the whole thing -- just the first few lines.

(1.5) The Secret Service was way out of line with their accusation -- but it wasn't the first time, nor the last.

(1.6) Anyway, that's why Ruth Paine produced that book at that time.

(2.0) Even though Marina was indeed under 24 hour watch by the Secret Service.

(2.1) Nevertheless, guys, Marina had *two tiny babies! HELLO!? Does anybody think the Secret Service was going to take care of Marina's babies? HELLO!? Did the Secret Service provide a nanny for Marina? HELLO!?

(2.2) The note did not have LHO's or Marina's fingerprints on it -- because Marina put it in her book seven months prior. Note that the note didn't have Ruth Paine's fingerprints on it, either.

(2.3) The FBI says that this note spurred them to take a new look at the WALKER CASE. Dick Russell, however, claims that the FBI learned about LHO and the Walker shooting on Easter Sunday 1963. Hmm.

(2.4) Liebeler asked, Why would LHO keep an incriminating note around for seven months? The answer is obvious -- he didn't -- Marina did; exactly as she testified, to hold it over LHO's head in the future.

(3.0) LHO's Backyard Photographs were found at the Ruth Paine home --

(3.1) Because EVERYTHING THAT OSWALD OWNED WAS AT RUTH PAINE'S HOUSE!

(3.2) Again -- because Marina Oswald was EIGHT MONTHS PREGNANT, and because LHO was OUT OF WORK, Ruth agreed to move the Oswalds to her home in Irving, Texas.

(3.3) This is because Ruth Paine is a sweet, Christian Quaker Charity lady! This is obvious to those who aren't biased.

(3.4) Ruth Paine had never seen those Backyard Photographs in her life. The story about them didn't come from Ruth!

(3.5) The fact that these Backyard Photographs showed signs of Fakery can be traced to Oswald's days at Jaggers-Chiles-Stovall, when he abused company equipment to make his Alek Hidell Fake ID, and other artifacts.

(3.6) If people actually read Marina's testimony -- she claimed that she took ONE and ONLY ONE photograph with that Imperial Reflex camera -- and she didn't know where the other shots came from. The WC lawyers browbeat her, and shouted and her, and forced her to change her story -- but she just said "I don't know about that -- I took only one photo."

(3.7) This is good evidence that LHO made all the Fake versions of the Backyard Photographs himself.

(3.8) George De Mohrenschildt was one unwilling recipient of this bizarre photograph. LHO was proud of it.

(3.9) Roscoe White was another recipient of a pose that the WC never even saw! Jack White says that the chin, neck, shoulders, right wrist and stance of the Backyard Photographs are really those of Roscoe White! I think he makes a very strong case! Now, Roscoe knew LHO at Atsugi. Both were Marine hotheads. (Ricky White says Roscoe White shot JD Tippit and was one of the snipers at JFK.)

There is much more to be discussed on this topic alone.

Regards,

--Paul Trejo

Edited by Paul Trejo

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

quote Paul Trejo: "My objection was this -- if a person was in a hurry, or worried or nervous, about to commit a crime and perhaps get arrested"

like if you shot the president unlike the cool calm collected unflappable harvey oswald

Well, Martin, I deny that LHO shot the President. On *that* day LHO had nothing to be worried about -- or so he thought.

Regards,

--Paul Trejo

quote Paul Trejo: "My objection was this -- if a person was in a hurry, or worried or nervous, about to commit a crime and perhaps get arrested"

like if you shot the president unlike the cool calm collected unflappable harvey oswald

Well, Martin, I deny that LHO shot the President. On *that* day LHO had nothing to be worried about -- or so he thought.

Regards,

--Paul Trejo

From a Frontline interview with Robert Oswald:

In your mind, are there questions about whether Lee shot President Kennedy?

There is no question in my mind that Lee was responsible for the three shots fired, two of the shots hitting the president and killing him.

If you truly understand what happened that day (and are not following some dead end tangent like some people are won't to do), you will know that here Robert is telling the truth about his brother Lee. Lee, and at least one other person, was up in the window in his white shirt showing a rifle and firing it to draw attention to the TSBD. Sure as shootin', as they say in Texas.

Now the Harvey fellow, who was not in the sixth floor window and was an innocent patsy, was somewhere near the entrance to the building when the shooting occurred and was not related to Robert in any way, shot no one that day, as he attested. "I didn't shoot anyone," Harvey yelled to reporters and he was telling the truth.

It's all very simple and if you understand the plan and don't get sidetracked by sideshows as some do it all falls into place.

Edited by Martin Blank

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

PT: Anyway, it is famously called the WALKER NOTE (or the WALKER LETTER). It is written in longhand, and a US Government expert concluded it was LHO's handwriting.

No kidding.

But take a look at what the HSCA said about it.

PT:Note that the note didn't have Ruth Paine's fingerprints on it, either.

How is that ascertained?

Because as far as i know the only exemplar comparisons were with the Oswalds. And there were prints found on it.

This whole thing about the WC portrait of the Paines as triple distilled Good Samaritans has collapsed into a hundred pieces. And it started happening about 20 years ago with the sterling work of Carol Hewett. She tracked down who these people actually were, which you will not find one iota of in the WR. They both come from families of spies. And people here actually try and say, well that doesn't mean a blasted thing. Like every family in America has this same background.

Oh really, how many people here are descended from the first families of America, that is the Cabots and Forbes? Please, raise your hands!

How many people have a brother or sister who worked for the CIA, but they were forbidden to talk about it?

How many people had a father who worked for the AID?

How many people visited their sister recently but forgot where she lived, and, in fact, eventually forgot the state in which she lived in?

Now, here is the clincher: who here are part of a family who had all of those characteristics?

(Sound of crickets in the night.)

In the face of facts like that, its almost shocking to me that some people here are still trying to put those hundred pieces back tiogether and return us to the days of the WC.

Edited by James DiEugenio

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Ruth Paine was a false evidence provider par excellence: - Ossis Mexico Bus ticket, Ossis handwriten concept of the typed letter to Russian embassy, the Imperial Rflex Camera, the Walker Photo besides it, the walker note...Ruth Paines Garage was a prop room filled with appropriate stuff for the lone-nut-coverstory.

KK

Edited by Karl Kinaski

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

From a Frontline interview with Robert Oswald:

In your mind, are there questions about whether Lee shot President Kennedy?

There is no question in my mind that Lee was responsible for the three shots fired, two of the shots hitting the president and killing him.

If you truly understand what happened that day (and are not following some dead end tangent like some people are won't to do), you will know that here Robert is telling the truth about his brother Lee. Lee, and at least one other person, was up in the window in his white shirt showing a rifle and firing it to draw attention to the TSBD. Sure as shootin', as they say in Texas.

Now the Harvey fellow, who was not in the sixth floor window and was an innocent patsy, was somewhere near the entrance to the building when the shooting occurred and was not related to Robert in any way, shot no one that day, as he attested. "I didn't shoot anyone," Harvey yelled to reporters and he was telling the truth.

It's all very simple and if you understand the plan and don't get sidetracked by sideshows as some do it all falls into place.

I tend to agree with you, Martin, that Robert Oswald knew more than he was willing to share. As Jeff Caufield suggests, Robert Oswald didn't want to tell the truth about his own Right-wing politics, and he didn't want to tell the truth about LHO's Right-wing politics (that he was working for Guy Banister).

This is only one of the things that Robert Oswald wanted to hush up.

Another thing Robert Oswald wanted to keep secret was that he had a love affair with Marina, his sister-in-law.

Another thing Robert Owald took to his grave was the reason why he hated and despised Michael Paine, and by proxy, Ruth Paine. Why? He was asked for years. "I'm not telling," is the only answer he ever gave.

But the explanation is clear if we consider the Right-wing scenario, and extend Michael Paine's hatred of General Walker along with the same hatred expressed by George De Mohrenschildt and Volmar Schmidt.

One who knows the facts can easily surmise that the shooting at General Walker was what totally ruined LHO's life. Everything went downhill from there.

One gets the idea -- or at least I do -- that Robert Oswald knew more about the Walker shooting -- and the participants -- than the Warren Commission wanted us to know. Robert Oswald cooperated 100% with the Warren Commission -- ultimately.

BTW, Ron Lewis in his 1992 self-published book, Flashback: The Untold Story of Lee Harvey Oswald, claims that when he knew LHO in New Orleans in the summer of 1963,LHO told Ron that Guy Banister was blackmailing him because he found out about the Walker shooting.

I think this is going to be the source of the most new revelations about the JFK murder.

Regards,

--Paul Trejo

Edited by Paul Trejo

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Ruth Paine was a false evidence provider par excellence: - Ossis Mexico Bus ticket, Ossis handwriten concept of the typed letter to Russian embassy, the walker note...Ruth Paines Garage was a prop room filled with appropriate stuff for the lone-nut-coverstory.

KK

It does seem that way, Karl, and I can see your point. Yet consider the same facts from another perspective:

(1.0) All of LHO's possessions were there in Ruth Paine's garage (except the few items he kept in his four-wall rooom in Dallas) simply because LHO had once again fallen into bankruptcy in New Orleans -- he had no job and his wife was 8 months pregnant -- and Ruth Paine was a Quaker Charity lady.

(1.1) Based on those facts, it is REASONABLE that all of LHO's belongings were at Ruth Paine's garage.

(2.0) Nevertheless, there is another squiggle to this -- the fact that LHO lied to Ruth Paine from start to finish.

(2.1) LHO told Ruth Paine he was going to Houston to look for work (and not to Mexico City).

(2.2) The Lopez Report (FOIA Release 2003) demonstrates scientifically that LHO was in Mexico City with a Fake Leftist Resume which had been constructed in New Orleans under the supervision of Guy Banister, Ed Butler, Carlos Bringuier, David Ferrie and Clay Shaw.

(2.3) But Ruth Paine never believed that LHO ever went to Mexico. When she saw LHO's "Mexico City Letter" on her desk on November 9th, it rattled her, but she just believed it was FICTION. She was upset that the FBI had been to her house on November 1st and November 5th, but in his "Mexico City Letter," LHO claimed that the "notorious FBI" is "no longer interested in me in Dallas."

(2.4) This was a big, fat, screaming lie, thought Ruth Paine, and she showed it to Michael Paine. Michael thought the letter was written to "Dear Lisa" (instead of "Dear Sirs") and he told Ruth not to pry into LHO's personal mail.

(3.0) LHO had lied to Ruth Paine and to Marina Oswald continually. The most common lie LHO told both of them was, "I always do everything alone. I have no accomplices of any kind." That was a lie, as Jim Garrison ably proved (despite his many faults).

(3.1) THIS IS WHY THE WARREN COMMISSION USED THEIR TESTIMONY FAR MORE THAN ANY OTHER TESTIMONY.

(3.2) If you want to make the case that LHO was a "Lone Nut", then the best evidence would come from the two women who were closest to him -- Marina Oswald and Ruth Paine. Ruth never even saw LHO *speak* to anyone else. No friends. No phone calls. no visitors. Ever.

(3.3) This doesn't make Ruth Paine a L-I-A-R or a JFK Conspirator -- it only makes her another one of the Victims in the JFK saga.

(3.4) Ruth Paine told the TRUTH *as she knew it*. But clearly, clearly, Ruth Paine didn't have all the FACTS at her disposal.

(3.5) So, please give Ruth Paine the benefit of the doubt, unless you have stronger evidence than rank suspicion.

Regards,

--Paul Trejo

Edited by Paul Trejo

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Please sign in to comment

You will be able to leave a comment after signing in



Sign In Now

×