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Actually, I accept the basic premise of Jeff Caufield's new book, General Walker and the Murder of President Kennedy; the Extensive New Evidence of a Radical Right Conspiracy (2015).

General Walker was clearly the mastermind of the JFK conspiracy, in my reading.

However, I disagree with a few points of Caufield's conclusions. Mainly, to connect Lee Harvey Oswald with General Walker, this new book resorts to the 1971 theory by Gareth Wean, namely, that there was a "false flag" conspiracy against JFK that went awry.

My theory is that the actual connection between Lee Harvey Oswald and General Walker is a man named George De Mohrenschildt, as expressed by his 1977 manuscript, I'm a Patsy! I'm a Patsy!

In this manuscript -- as well as in his Warren Commission testimony, George De Mohrenschildt reveals his hatred toward General Walker. It is well known that Lee Harvey Oswald looked up to George De Mohrenschildt, and this was the actual motive for the attempt on Walker.

I think that Dr. Caufield missed this connection. Otherwise, Dr. Caufield's book is brilliant -- the best book on the JFK CT of any book so far in the 21st century.

HAPPY LABOR DAY,

--PaulT rejo

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On 11/2/2015 at 11:58 AM, Paul Trejo said:

I repeat again -- this isn't a joke to me -- if anybody has any real, solid evidence that Ruth Paine had a lesbian relationship with Marina Oswald, I invite you to share it in this thread, where I will give it careful consideration.

My project is to catalog all the accusations about Ruth Paine in JFK research -- I find this one only in insinuations by William Manchester and noplace else. Is there any more?

Regards,

--Paul Trejo

I've been looking into a few things regarding the Paine's. It is apparently a very sensitive subject and this thread is way to bloated to read fully or even scan for what I am looking for. But I did find Paul's post and it seems genuine. He seems to want to be a clearinghouse for certain aspects of our overarching discussion, one of those aspect appears to be The Paine's.

What stuck me is two things. 

1. They seem to have a Brother and Sister aire about them.

2. Does anyone else see the "Hapsburg Jaw" aka "Mandibular prognathism" in the both of them. I think I see it in the youtube video interview in their home after the assassination.

???

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1 hour ago, Michael Clark said:

I've been looking into a few things regarding the Paine's. It is apparently a very sensitive subject and this thread is way to bloated to read fully or even scan for what I am looking for. But I did find Paul's post and it seems genuine. He seems to want to be a clearinghouse for certain aspects of our overarching discussion, one of those aspect appears to be The Paine's.

What stuck me is two things. 

1. They seem to have a Brother and Sister aire about them.

2. Does anyone else see the "Hapsburg Jaw" aka "Mandibular prognathism" in the both of them. I think I see it in the youtube video interview in their home after the assassination.

???

Michael,

I see no "brother and sister" aire between Michael and Ruth Paine -- but what you are probably perceiving is the mood of a divorced couple who did not divorce on nasty terms, but chose to be civil to each other during their separation -- and who also wanted their children to grow up with both parents, and didn't want their kids to see them fighting all the time.

I see no Hapsburg Jaw in them -- but of course they have the speaking habits of the wealthy classes of the East Coast.  They both came from wealthy families.  Michael's family was notoriously wealthy.  They were both college educated at fine schools -- they met in college.  They both sang in choirs in college, and they both traveled Europe singing, IIRC.  Yes, they were rich.

Ruth Paine seemed accustomed to three-month summer vacations, ending in mid-September.  It was at the end of her 1963 summer vacation that she drove from the East Coast to New Orleans to pick up Marina and June Oswald, and drive them to Texas, so that she could register Marina at Parkland Hospital to have baby Rachel.  (This is because Marina was eight months pregnant and had no medical insurance, no money, and Lee Oswald was out of work again for the third time in a year.)

Yes, the Paine's were rich.  This has been seen as a crime in itself by some CTers.   What a laugh.

Regards,
--Paul Trejo

Edited by Paul Trejo
typos

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PT: General Walker was clearly the mastermind of the JFK conspiracy, in my reading.

 

LOL:lol:

Yep Paul, you can tell by all the  ersatz accusations Caufield made and which I outlined  in my review and showed they went nowhere.

And then after all that has been exposed, you have the cajones to write that authors like Newman, Melanson, Fonzi, and Bill Davy are all up a tree since they have fallen for the hocus pocus that somehow the CIA was a major player.  

Keep on pushing Harry Dean and Caufield on us.  Mayeb we will all see the light sooner or later.  In the next century.

Oh, and I forgot, Ruth was that kindly, innocent Quaker lady who, although she never even took in a stray cat before, just had to save Marina from that madman Lee.

Did she also have to sabotage the dead Oswald by working with Hoover to get Oswlald's Minox camera away from him and into Michael's eager hands?  

Edited by James DiEugenio

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And Paul, in looking over some older threads I happened to come across a couple from 3-4 years ago in which you sung Peter Dale Scott praises. More recently you have been very unkind in your assessment of Scott, in keeping with your latter day conclusions regarding CIA complicity and any researchers who dare to go down that path.

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7 hours ago, Paul Brancato said:

And Paul, in looking over some older threads I happened to come across a couple from 3-4 years ago in which you sung Peter Dale Scott praises. More recently you have been very unkind in your assessment of Scott, in keeping with your latter day conclusions regarding CIA complicity and any researchers who dare to go down that path.

Paul B.,

Yes, there was a time in 2011 when I thought that Peter Dale Scott was impressive.  But in his later publications it became clear that he was merely repeating himself, and making money on his clever term, "Deep Politics," which is a literary term, because he is a professor of English, not of History or Political Science.

The term has no real meaning.  Scott's material after his first book is boring, repetitive, and adds nothing to the understanding of the details of the JFK assassination. 

The real key is the ground crew -- and Peter Dale Scott doesn't give a darn about the ground crew -- or about any of the details anymore.  He's off on his quasi-Marxist social critique of America.  What a bore.

Regards,
--Paul Trejo

Edited by Paul Trejo
typos

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Ruth and Liddy, from this thread:

http://educationforum.ipbhost.com/index.php?/topic/9146-g-gordon-liddy-and-marathon-oil—1962-to-1963/

I only have some sketchy information that has started taking foggy shape in the Wayback Machine on this at the moment, but it was such a head-turning curiosity to me that I felt I ought to at least get this topic started, hoping and believing that it is going to grow significantly.

G. Gordon Liddy was in the FBI from 1957 until September 1962, and prior to resigning in September 1962 had been involved in COINTELPRO. In his autobiography, "Will," he leaps from 1962 to 1965 with hardly a nod to anything in between except Too Much Information about the rhythm method, birth control pills, the Catholic religion in relation to all of that, and his crisis of faith.

Before getting into the little bit of substantive data he does let slip out, let me mention that in a sworn deposition, Liddy moved his resignation from the FBI an entire year, claiming that it was September 1963 instead of September 1962. Oh, what a difference a year makes.

When Liddy "resigned" from the FBI in September of 1962, he went to work at this father's law firm, which recently had moved from we-know-not-where to Wall Street in New York City. And one of Sylvester Liddy's clients was Marathon Oil.

Liddy is extremely cagey and vague about dates during this period. Efforts are being made to get records that will open this up, and any information that can be supplied on this by anyone will be invaluable. But here are a few interesting coincidences in time and place leading up to Liddy's pretty thoroughly unexplained "resignation" from the FBI:

  • On 3 August 1962, the CIA's Louis "Jolly" West, of the Department of Psychiatry, Neurology, and Behavioral Sciences at the University of Oklahoma School of Medicine, killed an elephant with a massive dose of LSD.
  • On 5 August 1962, Marilyn Monroe was found dead, purportedly a suicide.
  • On 13 August 1962, a congressional hearing was held regarding Ruth Hyde Paine's brother-in-law John Lindsay Hoke, associated with the CIA front organization, Agency for International Development (AID). Ruth Hyde Paine's father, William Avery Hyde, was in some way also connected with AID (but little information can be found on his role with AID). The hearings were over financial improprieties in a project of boat development between AID and Hoffman Electronics Corporation of California under circumstances which Congressman Hardy described as "collusion."
  • On 21 August 1962, the CIA granted an Approval for Liaison by CIA Engineering Staff with John Lindsey Hoke, who had been cleared for classified information up to and including Top Secret since 19 April 1954.
  • On 27 August 1962, George De Mohrenschildt sent a chart of Haiti and surrounds from Port-au-Prince, Haiti, to a Mr. Raigorodsky of Dallas, Texas, marked with various claims of development DeMohrenschildt purportedly was planning. Although the chart doesn't say so, DeMohrenschildt was in league with Clemard Joseph Charles at the time.
  • On or about 1 September 1962, G. Gordon Liddy retired from the FBI and went to work for his father's law firm on Wall Street in New York City, where he would remain, primarily, into sometime in 1965—bracketing the Kennedy assassination. And one of the accounts of the firm at the time was Marathon Oil.
  • On Tuesday, 25 September 1962, CIA's Mrs. Van Sast called Naval Intelligence wanting to know John Lindsay Hoke's Top Secret "clearance and basis."
  • On Tuesday, 25 September 1962, an article about John Lindsay Hoke appeared in the Washington Daily News titled "AID Official Has Wings Clipped." The article simply charged that Hoke has been alleged to have been planning to "make personal profit from" a venture for AID.
  • On Friday, 28 September there was this CIA notation regarding Ruth Hyde Paine's brother-in-law John Lindsay Hoke: "EAB card reflects on September 28, 1962, Subject's Security Officer advised that SAC was cleared for access to classified information up to and including Top Secret." 
  • On Friday, 9 November 1962, the Assistant United States Attorney, Frederick G. Smith, quietly declined to prosecute John Lindsay Hoke, saying that the violations of federal law by Hoke were "merely of a technical nature."

Okay, I've just got to stop right there. Don't you love the way these scum operate? If the Hoke Joke doesn't rip open the whole squirming bag-o-maggots that is Washington, D.C. for you, check to see if your breath will fog a mirror.

Now, there's lots else going on around all of this, but these are some of the very interesting things surrounding G. Gordon Liddy's rather sudden and unexplained "resignation" from the FBI (and COINTELPRO) to go off to the Big Apple and work with Daddy Liddy on Wall Street in Daddy's law firm—which had Marathon Oil as one of its clients.

Of course, also there in New York City on Wall Street at the time was the investment firm of Train, Cabot and Assossiates—CIA front for WUSALINE and the WUBRINY operations tied to Thomas James Devine and George H.W. Bush. And it is while G. Gordon Liddy is working there on Wall Street that Clemard Joseph Charles and George DeMohrenschildt are known to have been in New York City in April 1963, including their visit to Train, Cabot, after which Clemard Joseph Charles met with vice president of Chase Manhattan Bank Jerry W. Johnston and secured a loan of $1 million dollars—as long as it was backed by the CIA front AID (who Ruth Hyde Paine's father and brother-in-law BOTH were working for at the time).

And who else was in New York City during this fertile period in 1963? James McCord, of CIA's Manhattan Field Office. In fact, there are some indications that McCord may even have been the "Special Agent In Charge" of the Manhattan Field Office.

And I'm going to leave this here at the moment, except to say that one of the offshoots of this little research investigation is a trip G. Gordon Liddy took sometime in 1963 to Ohio and trips to Washington, D.C., puportedly on the Marathon Oil account.

And while this is still being narrowed down, it's beginning to look like Liddy's little D.C. and Ohio trips very well might have coordinated awfully closely with Ruth Hyde Paine's little trip to Washington, D.C., to Philadelphia, Pennsylvania, and to Ohio between 24 August and 10 September 1963. And if that's not scary enough, look at this little section of timeline:

  • On Thursday, 22 August 1963, the CIA again granted an Approval for Liaison with John Lindsay Hoke "on a continuing basis," reaffirming his clearance for classified information "up to and including Top Secret."
  • Three days later, on Sunday, 24 August 1963, Ruth Hyde Paine traveled to Baltimore, Maryland, then the next day to Washington, D.C. "to stay with sister." And "sister" happens to be Sylvia Hyde Hoke—who has a CIA-blessed secret clearance from AID, and whose husband is John Lindsay Hoke.
  • Five days later, on Thursday, 29 August 1963, Ruth Hyde Paine left the Hokes and went to Paoli, Philadelphia, just outside Philadelphia, to "wait for" her father would will join her there. Her father, of course, is William Avery Hyde, also of AID.
  • On 10 September 1963, Ruth Hyde Paine left Paoli for Ohio to see "relatives and friends." Also in Ohio is the headquarters of Marathon Oil—where G. Gordon Liddy was afoot around this time.

 

 

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Again: Ruth Hyde Paine may have come from a wealthy family -- but that is no crime.

Ruth Paine was an idealist -- a Quaker -- and she took Marina Oswald into her home because Marina was pregnant, had no insurance, had no money, and Lee Harvey Oswald was out of work for the third time in a year. 

Marina Oswald was eight months pregnant in September 1963, when Ruth Paine took her in.  Lee Harvey Oswald had been out of work for more than two months at that point.  Marina was practically starving as LHO was playing spy games with Guy Banister at 544 Camp Street.

To try to portray Ruth Paine -- the Quaker Charity Lady -- as anything sinister, shows a callous disregard for poverty-stricken pregnant women and for charity in general.

Regards,
--Paul Trejo

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On 11/16/2015 at 8:59 PM, James DiEugenio said:

Now that Paul is at least temporarily gone, I will post here.

When I wrote that it was open season on the Paines, I did not mean what I think PT thought I meant.

All I meant was that now that all the camouflage around them has dissipated, people can now see them for who they really are and evaluate them by real standards and real circumstances.

Before Carol's milestone work, we could not do that. It was her, Steve Jones, and Barbara La Monica who did the real digging into the Paines. To say that all there is is the Bancroft connection, that is simply wrong. Whether it is deliberately wrong, I do not know.

But to just focus on Michael, his family was Boston Brahmin all the way. He was offspring of both the Cabot and Forbes families, who go back all the way to just about the Puritans. His uncle was governor and ambassador to the Phillipines. Prior to his death, Cameron Forbes then joined his relatives on the board of United Fruit. Also on that board was Michael's cousin, Thomas Dudley Cabot, who was actually a former president of United Fruit.

Now where was Thomas in 1951, along with his brother, John Moors Cabot? They were both in the State Department interacting with the likes of Maurice Gatlin--Guy Banister's buddy-- over preparations for the CIA overthrow of Arbenz. In the early sixties, Thomas was president of Gibraltar Steam ship Corporation, which leased a barren island off the coast of Honduras. That land was called Swan Island. And Gibraltar was a CIA front company. It owned no ships. But it was on that island, through the Gibraltar front, that David Phillips established Radio Swan, used as a psy war arm of the CIA invasion of Cuba during the Bay of Pigs. (Destiny Betrayed, Second edition, p. 196)

Need I add, that Michael was in receipt of trust fund money from both families--Forbes and Cabots--in 1963?

If you want to ignore all of this, then fine. But don't say it does not exist. Or its "weak". Michael Paine had relatives involved in two major CIA covert invasions?

Carol Hewett is an excellent researcher who backed up everything she wrote with documents. She never got the credit or attention she deserved. While others in this community, who never came close to her achievements, somehow did. Which is one reason she is not active anymore. (She is also retiring from the Florida BAR and moving north.)

But that's our research community. It took something like 35 years to see the Paines clearly. And then people get angry because Carol did such good work on them. Go figure.

There is so much great info in this thread. My interest in then Phillipines, MacArthur and Landsdale was piqued by the above post.

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Yes, one has to be almost purposely avoiding the truth when they say they don't see any relevance to all these Michael Paine family connections and Michael Paine's own political background, interests and activities.

During the time he was interacting with Lee Oswald and Marina he wanted to go to these extreme political group meetings and talks including one with Oswald himself, just as a passing fancy?

And what the heck was Ruth Paine's sister's employment background? We all know it wasn't that of kindergarten teacher.

And Micheal Paine's prevarication regarding the "we know who was responsible" telephone call where his questioner gave him an escape route by stating this call happened on a different date than it actually did, gives even more weight to the MP suspicion realm.

Edited by Joe Bauer

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21 minutes ago, Joe Bauer said:

Yes, one has to be almost purposely avoiding the truth when they say they don't see any relevance to all these Michael Paine family connections and Michael Paine's own political background, interests and activities.

During the time he was interacting with Lee Oswald and Marina he wanted to go to these extreme political group meetings and talks including one with Oswald himself, just as a passing fancy?

And what the heck was Ruth Paine's sister's employment background? We all know it wasn't that of kindergarten teacher.

And Micheal Paine's prevarication regarding the "we know who was responsible" telephone call where his questioner gave him an escape route by stating this call happened on a different date than it actually did, gives even more weight to the MP suspicion realm.

The fact, as I understand it, that Bell, General Dynamics and Dallas itself were about to dry-up and blow away without the TFX contract and the Vietnam war ties the Paines to the plot, arguably, when you throw in the the CIA connections. Add the corporate security functions, the United Fruit/NOLA angle....... it just becomes such a juggernaut, and the Paines are just right there in the thick of it all. It just begs for a full analysis and all I have is just a pile of legos in front of me.

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On 5/9/2017 at 11:04 PM, Joe Bauer said:

Yes, one has to be almost purposely avoiding the truth when they say they don't see any relevance to all these Michael Paine family connections and Michael Paine's own political background, interests and activities.

During the time he was interacting with Lee Oswald and Marina he wanted to go to these extreme political group meetings and talks including one with Oswald himself, just as a passing fancy?

And what the heck was Ruth Paine's sister's employment background? We all know it wasn't that of kindergarten teacher.

And Micheal Paine's prevarication regarding the "we know who was responsible" telephone call where his questioner gave him an escape route by stating this call happened on a different date than it actually did, gives even more weight to the MP suspicion realm.

Joe,

I'm certainly not purposely avoiding the truth when I say that I see no relevance to Michael Paine's family connections and Michael Paine's own political interests, as you imply.

Michael's parents were rich.  Yet Michael's father was a Trotskyite Marxist.   Michael didn't grow up with his father, but as a high-school freshman, his mother let him visit his father one summer. 

It was eye-opening for Michael, because his father opened his large house in California to a wide assortment of Marxists in intellectual meetings.  Michael heard them argue and debate, and saw clearly that one had to join one Communist group or another, to have any recognition at all.

At the end of the summer, Michael Paine realized that he had nothing in common with any of the Marxist Parties.  Not one of them.  He would continue his higher education in engineering, and leave the Marxist politics to the hoi polloi.   Michael's hobby was Madrigal singing.  He toured Europe as a Madrigal singer.

One of the reasons that Michael Paine was unimpressed with Lee Harvey Oswald, was because Oswald refused to join any Marxist group.  Oswald liked to repeat phrases from Marx, to show off, but Oswald had no interest in working in a real project.  Michael realized that Oswald was a dilettante.

Any truly educated person could see this.   For example, this is from the testimony of Baron George De Mohrenschildt about Lee Harvey Oswald:

Mr. JENNER. Did you have the feeling that his views on politics were shallow and surface?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Very much so.
Mr. JENNER. That he had not had the opportunity for a study under scholars who would criticize, so that he himself could form some views on the subject?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Exactly. His mind was of a man with exceedingly poor background, who read rather advanced books, and did not understand even the words in them. He read complicated economical treatises and just picked up difficult words out of what he has read, and loved to display them. He loved to use the difficult words, because it was to impress one.

Regarding the political interests of Michael Paine in 1963, there was one aspect of Oswald's politics that they both had in common -- namely -- gathering information about Right Wing groups in Dallas.  They didn't have exactly the same interests, but slightly so.   Thus, on the evening of October 23, 1963, Michael drove Lee to downtown Dallas to hear the US Day Rally by General Walker, as Michael himself went to a John Birch Society meeting -- just to see what it was all about.

There was one other thing.  Michael Paine liked to talk to young college students at coffee houses.   (This was when he was separated from Ruth Paine.)   He evidently boasted to a group of young students that he personally knew a Marxist who had lived in Russia, who also returned to the USA.  They were impressed.  One of the students told the FBI.

As for Ruth Paine's older sister, although she was indeed a psychologist for the CIA, she never spoke about her work.  (CIA employees are not allowed to speak about their work, even to family members).  So, Ruth didn't know much about it when asked.  Simple.

Finally -- as I've stated several times on this Forum -- Ruth Paine told me personally (12/2015) that when Michael Paine called her on 11/22/1963 and said, "We both know who's responsible," they tacitly meant the Dallas Rightwing, which had published the WANTED FOR TREASON:JFK handbill, as well as the WELCOME, MR. KENNEDY, TO DALLAS black-bordered ad.   So, that's been asked and answered.

Regards,
--Paul Trejo

Edited by Paul Trejo
USA

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