David Von Pein Posted December 17, 2015 Share Posted December 17, 2015 (edited) ALBERT DOYLE SAID:The information was gotten from [the] FBI for the Money Order on the 23rd.DAVID VON PEIN SAID:Chief Curry's "order letter" announcement came at about 7 PM Dallas time on November 23rd. The money order was not found until approximately 9:35 PM EST (8:35 PM Dallas time). So the "$12.78" announcement made by Curry and fed to the media and newspapers was NOT being based on the discovery of the "money order". It was the "order letter" that had been found up to that point at 7 PM CST. Now, I guess CTers who are bent on finding ANY inaccuracy at all to justify their staunch belief that the rifle transaction was totally fraudulent could complain about the amount shown on Oswald's "order letter" (i.e., the Klein's order form; CE773)--which was $19.95--not being released to the press by the FBI. But the $21.45 amount was a figure that Police Chief Jesse Curry was probably not aware of when he announced to the press in the DPD hallway at about 7:00 on Saturday night that the "FBI has the order letter for the rifle".ALBERT DOYLE SAID:Hargrove is saying [the] FBI deliberately reported the incorrect $12.78 price because they were adjusting for the phony Dial Ryder installation of a scope.DAVID VON PEIN SAID:But the FBI didn't even interview Dial Ryder until Monday, November 25th. So that theory is dead in the water before it ever gets off the ground.From Ryder's WC testimony:Mr. RYDER -- "I was interviewed by the FBI and Dallas Police Department and I believe a couple Secret Service men came out."Mr. LIEBELER -- "Which one of those interviewed you first?"Mr. RYDER -- "The FBI was the first one out."Mr. LIEBELER -- "Do you remember what the date was when the FBI first interviewed you?"Mr. RYDER -- "It was on Monday, the day of the funeral of President Kennedy." http://www.jfkassassinationforum.com/index.php/topic,12852.msg414750.html#msg414750 Edited December 17, 2015 by David Von Pein Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Hargrove Posted December 17, 2015 Share Posted December 17, 2015 A UPI story called “Oswald Case 'Airtight,'” printed in daily newspapers all across the country on 11/24/63, included the following paragraph: Police Chief Jesse Curry wove police evidence tighter around Oswald. He said the FBI reported that Oswald bought the Italian 6.5 Carcano bolt-action rifle with a tele- scopic sight from a Chicago mail order house for $12.78. See a newspaper.com image of the actual story here. Sure is funny that the FBI would get the price so wrong if it was really in possession of legitimate Kleins records and the magic money order, eh? Right there in the news report they state that the order was in Oswald's handwriting. So they also SHOULD have known the price of the order, $19.95 for the rifle, or $21.45 including shipping. The price would be RIGHT THERE on the order. Yet they say the price was $12.78! Incredible. Clearly at that time they either had NO order at all and were lying, or they had a forged order for $12.78. (Or for that price plus shipping.) They supposedly found the $21.45 money order the night before. If they did have it in hand at that time (which I highly doubt), they surely were still in a state of confusion as how best to handle the mess they were in. I think this can be considered a smoking gun, Jim. (No pun intended,) Absolutely! I just found the UPI story a an hour or two ago, and I'm still trying to figure out the repercussions. Prior to reading it, I thought perhaps someone at the FBI believed the evidence that Dial Ryder had installed a scope on the magic rifle, and therefore faked a report of the $12.78 price without a scope. But according to Curry, the FBI mistakenly thought $12.78 was the price of the rifle WITH A SCOPE. I think what happened was that someone at the FBI misread one or more of the Kleins ads, which usually showed the rifle with a scope right a above the price without a scope. It can be confusing at a quick glance. As you say, it strains credulity that the Bureau could analyze the handwriting as Oswald/Hidell's on documents listing a wildly incorrect price. It also suggests that they were making up the story before they even had their forged documents in place. How many other innocent schmucks were convicted on this kind of crap. I believe part of the reason we've seen more than a half century of cover-up artists defending the WC is that if people understood how the FBI and probably lots of local police departments simply fabricated evidence out of whole cloth, it would suddenly become far more difficult to gain convictions throughout our court system. As I said before, I no longer think the Dial Ryder business had anything to do with the FBI's mistake in cooking the fraudulent evidence. I think someone at the Bureau, involved in the task of framing Oswald, mis-read one of the Kleins advertisements, thinking that the $12.78 price referred to the rifle with a scope. If you look at the ads, it is easy to make that mistake, and someone at the FBI fell right into it. As Sandy Larsen pointed out, this is a smoking gun proving that the FBI not only lied to the Dallas Police Department about the details of the Kleins purchase, but it also puts another nail into the coffin of the Magic Money Order. THE FBI LIED AND FORGED EVIDENCE ABOUT THE RIFLE! David Von Pein can wave around CD75 and CD87 all he wants, but it is all fruit from the poisoned tree. Many witnesses have come forward to say that both the FBI and the WC altered their statements in significant ways. The FBI even had a procedure outlined to alter testimony, even over the objections of WC attorneys. To see the FBI system for altering testimony, CLICK HERE! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Von Pein Posted December 17, 2015 Share Posted December 17, 2015 (edited) David Von Pein can wave around CD75 and CD87 all he wants, but it is all fruit from the poisoned tree. They're documents from TWO separate entities --- the FBI and the SS. Did the Secret Service get together with the FBI guys to make sure they were on the same page regarding putting the $21.45 figure in both of their reports? And then there's Waldman #7 too, which also shows the $21.45 figure, which perfectly matches the amount on the money order and the amounts shown in CD75 and CD87. Waldman 7 was found in the Klein's files (as Bill Waldman confirms below). So, am I supposed to believe that William Waldman was part of the "conspiracy" too? Is there ANYBODY who wasn't trying to railroad Lee Harvey? .... Mr. BELIN -- I'm going to hand you what has been marked as Waldman Deposition Exhibit No. 7 and ask you to state if you know what this is. Mr. WALDMAN -- This is a copy made from our microfilm reader-printer of an order received by Klein's from a Mr. A. Hidell, Post Office Box No. 2915, in Dallas, Texas. I want to clarify that this is not the order, itself, received from Mr. Hidell, but it's a form created by us internally from an order received from Mr. Hidell on a small coupon taken from an advertisement of ours in a magazine. Mr. BELIN -- This Waldman Deposition Exhibit No. 7 is a print from the microfilm negative which we just viewed upstairs; is that correct? Mr. WALDMAN -- That's correct. Edited December 17, 2015 by David Von Pein Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Hargrove Posted December 17, 2015 Share Posted December 17, 2015 David Von Pein can wave around CD75 and CD87 all he wants, but it is all fruit from the poisoned tree. They're documents from TWO separate entities --- the FBI and the SS. Did the Secret Service get together with the FBI guys to make sure they were on the same page regarding putting the $21.45 figure in both of their reports? In order to understand how the FBI cooked the books in this case, you really have to go through what is titled the “FBI Series 2” microfilm series, quietly published decades ago by UMI. I went through one of the reels from John Armstrong's collection not too long ago. Many documents that weren't officially released until years later appear—unredacted—on that microfilm set. It's weird. Everything of alleged evidentiary value that the Warren Commission saw went through the FBI. In the nearly endless microfilmed reports, FBI personnel included stuff like retyped versions of letters from private citizens, documents from other agencies, and so on. But the WC was not given originals of this evidence. Instead, the FBI provided them with black and white photos. As any questioned documents examiner will tell you, b&w photocopies of documents have extremely limited forensic value. They are just far too easy to alter. The evidence in this case was all funneled through a single agency: the FBI. You will deny it, but we have proven that the Magic Money Order was fraudulently depicted by the FBI and is almost certainly itself a forgery. How can the FBI possibly have analyzed the “Oswald/Hidell” handwriting on the money order and order forms without knowing the correct price clearly shown on those documents? EVERY SINGLE DOCUMENT THAT PASSED THROUGH THE FBI IS QUESTIONABLE. Again, it's all fruit from the poisoned tree. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Hargrove Posted December 17, 2015 Share Posted December 17, 2015 ALBERT DOYLE SAID: Hargrove is saying [the] FBI deliberately reported the incorrect $12.78 price because they were adjusting for the phony Dial Ryder installation of a scope. DAVID VON PEIN SAID: But the FBI didn't even interview Dial Ryder until Monday, November 25th. So that theory is dead in the water before it ever gets off the ground. Oh, puh-lease…. Dial Ryder allegedly found the repair ticket Saturday morning 11/23 (though no witnesses could confirm it). By Sunday the 24th, Channel 8 newsman Ray Johns told DPD Detective Faye Turner that he had received an anonymous call stating that Oswald had his rifle sighted Nov. 21 at the gun shop where Ryder worked. Another anonymous caller told Detective Turner that the rifle came from Klein's in Chicago. FBI agent Emory Horton showed up at Ryder's house at 8 am Monday morning to escort him to the shop. When Liebeler asked, “How did Horton know to come out to the sports shop?” Ryder replied, “Actually, I don't know….” (Above info from Harvey and Lee, p. 459) The FBI may not have interviewed Ryder until Monday the 25th, but the story was already known at a television station, DPD, and undoubtedly, the FBI. By the way, David, why are you bringing Albert Doyle into this? He doesn't even post here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jon G. Tidd Posted December 17, 2015 Share Posted December 17, 2015 Anonymous tipsters play an incredibly important role on 11-22 and 11-23-63 re the rifle. They are grossly under-appreciated by JFK researchers. They are co-conspirators who helped greatly to frame Marina's husband. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Von Pein Posted December 18, 2015 Share Posted December 18, 2015 (edited) Anonymous tipsters...are co-conspirators who helped greatly to frame Marina's husband. Why of course. Didn't everybody in Texas help to frame Marina's hubby? Edited December 18, 2015 by David Von Pein Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Von Pein Posted December 18, 2015 Share Posted December 18, 2015 (edited) By the way, David, why are you bringing Albert Doyle into this? He doesn't even post here. So? John Armstrong doesn't post here either, and yet this forum is packed with Armstrong quotes. Edited December 18, 2015 by David Von Pein Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Hargrove Posted December 18, 2015 Share Posted December 18, 2015 Anonymous tipsters play an incredibly important role on 11-22 and 11-23-63 re the rifle. They are grossly under-appreciated by JFK researchers. They are co-conspirators who helped greatly to frame Marina's husband. You're preaching to the choir, Jon. If you want to understand this case, buy yourself a used microfilm reader for fifty bucks or so, and then buy the "FBI Series 2" microfilm set from UMI (a New York Times subsidiary) for, I suspect, several hundred dollars, and start reading. In a week or less, you'll understand this case even better than you do now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Hargrove Posted December 18, 2015 Share Posted December 18, 2015 By the way, David, why are you bringing Albert Doyle into this? He doesn't even post here. So? John Armstrong doesn't post here either, and yet this forum is packed with Armstrong quotes. [LAUGH] OK, fine, but JA is quite wealthy and is entirely capable of defending himself and his family against even a medium-sized army of weaponized Harvey&Lee critics. My guess is that most other Americans, including me and Albert, are hardly as fortunate. Seems kind of creepy to bring a civilian into this without his permission, which is exactly what you did. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Hargrove Posted December 18, 2015 Share Posted December 18, 2015 (edited) Please CLICK HERE. Do you see the significance that the FBI talked about a $12.78 rifle little more than 24 hours after JFK was KILLED? Look at the FBI's own timeline! Edited December 18, 2015 by Jim Hargrove Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Von Pein Posted December 18, 2015 Share Posted December 18, 2015 (edited) Seems kind of creepy to bring a civilian into this without his permission... Merely citing a "civilian" (?? ) who posted something at another forum is "creepy"? ~big shrug~ Edited December 18, 2015 by David Von Pein Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thomas Graves Posted December 18, 2015 Share Posted December 18, 2015 Seems kind of creepy to bring a civilian into this without his permission... Merely citing a "civilian" (?? ) who posted something at another forum is "creepy"? ~big shrug~ David, By "civilian," Hargrove probably means anyone who is not a member of Armstrong's "Army" of frothing-at-the-mouth followers. --Tommy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Von Pein Posted December 18, 2015 Share Posted December 18, 2015 (edited) By "civilian," Hargrove probably means anyone who is not a member of Armstrong's "Army" of frothing-at-the-mouth followers. No doubt. Edited December 18, 2015 by David Von Pein Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Von Pein Posted December 18, 2015 Share Posted December 18, 2015 (edited) EVERY SINGLE DOCUMENT THAT PASSED THROUGH THE FBI IS QUESTIONABLE. Jim H., Do you think William Waldman lied to the WC when he gave this testimony regarding Waldman Exhibit No. 7? I just want to confirm that you think William Waldman of Klein's Sporting Goods in Chicago was part of the "conspiracy" and/or "cover-up" too. .... Mr. BELIN -- I'm going to hand you what has been marked as Waldman Deposition Exhibit No. 7 and ask you to state if you know what this is. Mr. WALDMAN -- This is a copy made from our microfilm reader-printer of an order received by Klein's from a Mr. A. Hidell, Post Office Box No. 2915, in Dallas, Texas. I want to clarify that this is not the order, itself, received from Mr. Hidell, but it's a form created by us internally from an order received from Mr. Hidell on a small coupon taken from an advertisement of ours in a magazine. Mr. BELIN -- This Waldman Deposition Exhibit No. 7 is a print from the microfilm negative which we just viewed upstairs; is that correct? Mr. WALDMAN -- That's correct. Edited December 18, 2015 by David Von Pein Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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