Jump to content
The Education Forum

Recommended Posts

15 hours ago, Jason Ward said:

Sorry, we barely submit anything in paper form anymore and although I recall bulk transfers from earlier in my career, I don't have any details to share.   I respond to you because you have a grip on rational thought -however- the whole topic should be at most two posts long: a non-banker asking for a banker's opinion followed by an answer in the next post.  If you don't believe ME, ok, simply print out the back of the money order and bring it to your bank and ask if this is a valid endorsement.   The fact is with a large commercial depositor, no one at any stage of processing is checking the endorsement - it could be a scribble, it could be in Chinese, it could be missing entirely.   The endorsement means almost nothing (in this case), likewise any "missing" endorsement or ABA number means nothing.   The Fed promulgated guidelines and has since time began never enforced them in routine daily transactions.  Then and now processing occurs without signatures, with missing dates, and with all kinds of arguably invalid attributes.   To imagine Klein's is in on the assassination is why CTers are seen as the lunatic fringe.

Imagining you can read a tiny snippet of federal regulations and become an expert on check processing without any bank experience is ridiculous.

Thanks for your response, Jason. I'll be sure to add it to my mile-long "Money Order" webpage [linked again below].

http://jfk-archives.blogspot.com/2015/10/The Hidell Money Order

Edited by David Von Pein
Link to post
Share on other sites
  • Replies 582
  • Created
  • Last Reply

Top Posters In This Topic

On 4/24/2018 at 1:04 AM, Jason Ward said:

No, Sandy, the phrase "Any Bank" is not the literal requirement.... any bank means INSERT the name of any bank - as in The First Natl Bank of Chicago.  I work at a bank and posted an endorsement above already.   Go to a bank, any bank in America, and ask someone who knows.

 

On 4/24/2018 at 6:55 PM, Jim Hargrove said:

Jason,

Please note the phrase "ANY BANK, BANKER, OR TRUST CO." in the endorsement on the top right photostat below of the 1963 voucher to Lee Harvey Oswald from the Texas Employment Commission.

 

23 hours ago, David Von Pein said:

So what?

You're kidding, right?

Link to post
Share on other sites

According to the Dallas police chief, the FBI indicated just a day or two after the assassination that it was DEFINITELY Oswald’s handwriting on a March 20 order for a $12.78 rifle from Kleins.  When the Magic Money Order® evidence is finally produced, turns out that the rifle was ordered more than a week earlier, and that it cost $21.75.  How did those finger prints travel back in time like that?  Or maybe...

Must have been TWO DIFFERENT ORDERS, eh?  From TWO DIFFERENT OSWALDS?  LOL!

For far more details on the FBI’s dramatically evolving story on the Magic Rifle, see:

Oswald Did NOT Purchase a Rifle from Kleins

and 

MAIL ORDER RIFLE

Both write-ups are by John Armstrong.

Link to post
Share on other sites
17 hours ago, Jason Ward said:

To imagine Klein's is in on the assassination is why CTers are seen as the lunatic fringe.

The overwhelming majority of Americans are CTers, and always have been for well more than half a century. 

Klein's did not have to be "in on the assassination."  The FBI only had to create fake paperwork and alter testimony, as it did time and time again.  For example....

The short (3 minute) YouTube video below demonstrates quite clearly how the FBI altered the observations of three critical Dealey Plaza witnesses who believed shots may have been taken at JFK from outside of the Texas School Book Depository, thus contradicting the official story.

 

The FBI went to extraordinary lengths to suppress evidence of what CIA accountant James Wilcott called the “Oswald Project,” including sending out agents within hours of the assassination to confiscate original school and teen-aged employment records of “Lee Harvey Oswald.” In the wee hours of the night of Nov 22-23, 1963, the FBI secretly took “Oswald's Possessions” from the Dallas Police Department, transported them to Washington, D.C. altered them, and then secretly returned them to Dallas, only to publicly send them to Washington. D.C. a few days later. Among a great many other alterations, a Minox “spy camera” became a Minox “light meter.” Tax records, not found by Dallas police who said they initialed each scrap of paper, magically appeared without DPD initials.  FBI agent James Cadigan inadvertently spilled the bean about the secret transfer during his sworn WC testimony, which was altered by the WC.

Cadigan_Altered.jpg

 

The FBI falsified so much testimony that it even had a process in place for routinely doing so, including over the objections of Warren Commission attorneys.  

Dingle.gif

 

For more about how the FBI altered evidence, see this link:

Manipulated, Fabricated, and Disappearing Evidence

Link to post
Share on other sites
12 minutes ago, Jim Hargrove said:

It's time once again to play Dueling External Links....

http://jfk-archives.blogspot.com/2014/12/oswald-ordered-rifle.html

and

http://jfk-archives.blogspot.com/2011/04/index.html#Guns-Backyard-Photos-And-Other-Evidence

Edited by David Von Pein
Link to post
Share on other sites

Jason:

 

Are you saying that CT's are the lunatic fringe?

 1.Does this mean you believe the Single Bullet Fantasy?  

           Please click, as this always throws DVP into a tantrum https://kennedysandking.com/john-f-kennedy-articles/the-impossible-one-day-journey-of-ce-399

2. That Oswald got off three shots in six seconds, including 2 direct hits in the head and shoulder area?  

        Something that the legendary Carlos Hathcock, the greatest sniper of the Vietnam War said he could not do, no matter how many times he tried, and unlike the WC, and CBS he did not cheat.

3. That somehow, all those witnesses at Parkland and Bethesda somehow were all wrong about the hole in the back of JFK's head?  

   If so, why did the HSCA lie about their testimony?

 4. That  a bullet at the top of Kennedy's skull somehow damaged the cerebellum at the bottom of his skull?  

 5. That somehow Stringer forgot what kind of film he used for twenty years, and the process he used for autopsy photographs? 

BTW, the idea that somehow Klein's had to be involved in the plot is so silly that I don't even think you really believe it. Its like saying REA planned part of the plot.

FInally, people who doubt the WR are not in the "lunatic fringe".  We are in a very big majority, anywhere from 61-75% , depending on who's poll you use. 

And we would be in the low to mid nineties if not for the MSM.  Which, when you use the term "lunatic fringe", you sound like you are a part of, or want to be part of.

Edited by James DiEugenio
Link to post
Share on other sites
James DiEugenio said:

...the idea that somehow Klein's had to be involved in the plot is so silly that I don't even think you really believe it.

Given the fact that Klein's internal paperwork (Waldman #7) and a Klein's-produced microfilm for the order form for a rifle (Commission Exhibit #773) and the detailed testimony of Klein's Vice President William J. Waldman all play an integral and key role in the "Rifle Evidence" against Lee Harvey Oswald, I can't see any reasonable way for Klein's Sporting Goods Company of Chicago, Illinois, to NOT be "involved in the plot" that conspiracy theorists like James DiEugenio have invented for themselves.

Good gosh, the key and relevant rifle documents (CE773 and Waldman Exhibit No. 7) were, in fact, found in the Klein's files in Chicago, and were found by Klein's employees themselves early in the morning of 11/23/63.

But, incredibly, per conspiracy fantasists like Mr. DiEugenio, we're supposed to believe that there was really no such legitimate "Hidell" order form for Rifle C2766 found in the Klein's files at all! --- because Jim doesn't think Oswald/Hidell really ordered ANY rifle from Klein's at any time!

Talk about believing in something "silly". The "Oswald Never Ordered A Rifle At All" nonsense would certainly be it. And I don't see how any such ridiculous theory could possibly NOT include at least a few Klein's employees who must have been privy to the "plot". Maybe James D. can explain how that could have happened.

 

Edited by David Von Pein
Link to post
Share on other sites

Lunatic fringe?  I've always loved looney tunes but You obviously don't Know what We Do.  Those Brit's have been singing about it for years.  In the name of love gimme shelter.  The lunatic was on the grass, as in the grassy knoll, not on the sixth floor.  Brain damaged ya know?  But the med's help a little.

https://www.bing.com/videos/search?q=the+lunatic+is+on+the+grass&qpvt=the+lunatic+is+on+the+grass&view=detail&mid=806252C7BE7AC2FFEA7F806252C7BE7AC2FFEA7F&&FORM=VRDGAR

 

Edited by Ron Bulman
Link to post
Share on other sites
7 hours ago, David Von Pein said:

Good gosh, the key and relevant rifle documents (CE773 and Waldman Exhibit No. 7) were, in fact, found in the Klein's files in Chicago, and were found by Klein's employees themselves early in the morning of 11/23/63.

Klein,s business records show that it microfilmed the method of payment received for mail order merchandise. And Klein's personnel in fact DID help FBI agents locate microfilm about a rifle, but it was for a different rifle than the one allegedly found on the sixth floor of the Book Depository!

For 7 hours in the early morning of 11/23/63 FBI Agents Dolan, Toedt, and Mahan reviewed Klein's microfilm records on two separate machines. They were trying to locate the identity of the person who purchased C2766 (supposedly Oswald/Hidell). These agents apparently found documentation on Klein's microfilm relating to the sale of a 6.5 Italian rifle, similar to the rifle found on the 6th floor of the TSBD, but this was not the rifle found on the 6th floor of the TSBD. This rifle was apparently sold by Klein's in late March, 1963, and paid for with a $21.95 postal money order issued on March 20, 1963.   (The copy of the Magic Money Order® currently in the National Archives was issued March 12, 1963 and was for $21.45--not $21.95.)

The following morning the FBI advised the Secret Service, and FBI informant/US postal inspector Harry Holmes, that a rifle similar to that found in the snipers nest had been sold by Kleins for $21.95 and was paid for with a postal money order issued on March 20, 1963 (CD 296). 

21.95.png

This information could only have come from the Klein's microfilm. This was probably the only information found on the Klein's microfilm by the FBI agents. If these agents found Oswald/Hidell's purchase of C2766 on the microfilm for $21.45, then they would have advised the Secret Service, the Dallas Police, Harry Holmes, and the press of their finding. But they didn't. And if they had found Oswald/Hidell's purchase of C2766 on the microfilm for $21.45, then they should have so testified before the Warren Commission. But they didn't.

A few hours later SA Dolan took the original roll of Klein's microfilm and boarded United Airlines flight #846 at 11:40 am for Washington, DC. The original roll of Klein's microfilm remained in FBI custody and was not seen again by Waldman until he testified before the Warren Commission on May 20, 1964. 

Waldman.jpg

Someone within the FBI realized that their possession of Klein's microfilm could allow critics to claim that the FBI had an opportunity to alter the microfilm. The FBI solved this problem by fabricating reports that created the "illusion" that Klein's microfilm remained at the Klein's office in Chicago. The following FBI report, backdated to November 23 (2nd page of report by SA Dolan, Toedt, Mahan; 11/23/63), states "reel of microfilm was placed by Mr. Waldman in a sealed envelope in a safe in his control. He advised that same would be maintained in his control only as long as desired." 

To further create the "illusion" that the microfilm remained with Kleins, the FBI created a second memo on February 3, 1964. This memo is from the SAC in Chicago to FBI Director Hoover and states, "Enclosed herewith is one reel of microfilm of various business transactions of Klein's Sporting Goods....This exhibit was obtained from the LaSalle National Bank Safety Deposit Box on 2/3/64 by ASAC William Welte and SA Dennis Shanahan for this submission.

Both FBI reports are fabrications. We know, from numerous FBI reports and Waldman's and Scibor's WC testimony, that the microfilm never remained at Kleins, nor was it placed in a safety deposit box at LaSalle National Bank. On 11/23/63 Waldman gave the microfilm to SA Dolan, was given a receipt for the microfilm, and within hours SA Dolan hand delivered the microfilm to FBI headquarters in Washington, DC. The following FBI memo may give the appearance that the original microfilm was kept in a safe at Klein's business office, but this is not the truth.

box_2915.png

 

Microfilm_reel.jpg

 

Within hours of the assassination, the FBI was telling the world, through Dallas Police Chief Jesse Curry, that Oswald's handwriting was on a March 20 order for a $12.78 rifle.  Not known to the public was that FBI agents at Klein's had confiscated microfilm for a $21.95 rifle, also ordered on March 20.  Neither of these orders matched the date or final price of the Magic Money Order.

Not until a week after the assassination, On November 29, did UPI dispatch stories to, for example, the Atlanta Consitution indicating that Lee Harvey Oswald purchased an Italian rifle, with scope mounted, from Klein's Sporting Goods for $19.95, not including postage ($21.45 total). The $21.95 rifle, the $12.78 mail order rifle that was announced to the press, and Dial Ryder's claim of mounting a scope on Oswald's rifle were all but forgotten in less than a week. Why? Because a close examination of events shows that the FBI was just making up stories for a week following the assassination, before settling on the final legend.

To see how the FBI created more fake documents to support it's final story about the Magic Rifle, see....

MAIL ORDER RIFLE

Information above was largely excerpted from Mr. Armstrong's "Mail Order Rifle" article linked above.
 

Link to post
Share on other sites
12 hours ago, James DiEugenio said:

4.That  a bullet at the top of Kennedy's skull somehow damaged the cerebellum at the bottom of his skull?

The brainstem was also partially damaged, Humes and Boswell said that they thought it was damaged by the bullet, they took a tissue slide of it.

Link to post
Share on other sites

1.  But Micah, I am referring to the altered location of the entry wound by the Clark Panel in 1968.  They have the entry bullet coming in at the cowlick area.  If you go with that then how on earth did the cerebellum sustain all that damage?

2.  Thanks Jim H, I knew DVP would walk into my trap, and I knew you would nail him on it.  

Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, James DiEugenio said:

1.  But Micah, I am referring to the altered location of the entry wound by the Clark Panel in 1968.  They have the entry bullet coming in at the cowlick area.  If you go with that then how on earth did the cerebellum sustain all that damage?

Yes, if there was an entry wound in the back of the head, then the one described in the autopsy report was certainly right next to the EOP. Finck was denying Clark Panel stuff since 1969 at the trial of Clay Shaw ("it was definitely not four inches above").

In a 1974 paper, Cyril Wecht also reported a tiny bullet fragment in the middle-neck area on the uncropped x-rays, which the HSCA chose not to publish in their books.

http://jfk.hood.edu/Collection/Weisberg Subject Index Files/A Disk/Autopsy JFK Cyril Wecht Dr/Item 18.pdf

 

better quality download:

http://libgen.io/scimag/get.php?doi=10.1016/0300-9432(74)90020-x&downloadname=&key=Z4QIEY0QMBFEC0TM

 

Edited by Micah Mileto
Link to post
Share on other sites

A close examination of events shows that the FBI was just making up stories for a week following the assassination, before settling on the final legend.

That's total nonsense, Jim.

As I have mentioned in previous discussions, there are very sensible and logical (and non-sinister) explanations for the initial inaccurate reports concerning the details of the Hidell/Oswald rifle purchase -- particularly the confusion that arose from the "$12.78" figure and the "March 20" date.

But to an Internet conspiracy theorist, however, virtually everything done by Officialdom is looked at as being part of some secretive and underhanded plot. So silly.

I think more conspiracy believers should embrace Hanlon's Razor....

Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity.

 

Link to post
Share on other sites
5 hours ago, James DiEugenio said:

Thanks Jim H, I knew DVP would walk into my trap, and I knew you would nail him on it.

Well, he’ll probably just continue to wave Waldman 7 around and tell us how trustworthy the FBI was in this case.  (Interesting, though, that the Bureau worked so hard to hide the fact it had confiscated Klein’s microfilm—preferring to let people believe it was safely locked away at Klein’s!)  That’s how they had the opportunity to alter the documents.

Nice write-up on the Magic Bullet®, by the way.  A lot of magic seems to appear in this thread, but I do prefer magical thinking to thoughts of institutional corruption and cover-ups on a massive scale, don’t you?

Link to post
Share on other sites

Please sign in to comment

You will be able to leave a comment after signing in



Sign In Now
×
×
  • Create New...