Yet another money order problem.

[Guest]

Regarding 138 4159796, I have been able to find nothing. But my guess would be it is evidence of processing - perhaps an identification number of some sort placed by the Federal Reserve. As I dive into this issue, I continue to be struck by the fact that the experts continue to assure us there "should be" evidence of processing but never seem to provide examples; they just assume there "should be." Even the representatives from the First Bank of Chicago and the Federal Reserve Bank of Chicago did not, as far as I can tell, suggest there should be indicators of processing, They just described the route the money order would have taken.

How is it possible that no one in the past decades has located someone who could definitively say, "This was the process in 1963, this is what should be on a processed money order, and this is what 138 4159796 means"? Does it seem likely that if someone were going to dummy-up a money order like this in connection with the assassination of a President, they would overlook the indications of processing that "should be" there? Even as a CT of sorts, I'm always troubled by the fact that the supposed conspirators are idiots when this best fits the theory and geniuses when that best fits the theory.

[James DiEugenio]

A reply to DVP and his phony handwriting imprimatur:

HSCA Handwriting analysis

The final piece of the rifle order puzzle involves an analysis of the Dept 358 coupon which shows Hidell’s name with Oswald’s shipping info and the envelope Oswald supposedly filled out and was also on the microfilm. (Klein’s chooses to record an envelope, coupon and Order Blank on film but does not choose to include the Money Order which would prove payment of said order. This, as we will investigate in the next section, allows the FBI with help from Harry Holmes, Harold Marks and Robert Jackson to create a Money Order within a closed-loop corroboration).

The HSCA and their handwriting experts are careful enough to include a disclaimer:

HSCA handwriting panel Summary

(27) With therestrictions and reservations stated in each panel member's final report,* the members conclude, generally, that the signatures and handwriting purported to be by Oswald are consistently that of one person . Because of the poor condition of the historical diary, they are unable to conclude firmly whether it was written at one or more than one sitting. On balance, it appears to have been written at one or a few sittings.

*In particular, members noted that not all documents were available in their original . It is standard practice in the profession of questioned document examination to make definitive conclusions only about documents examined in their original. Thus the panel members gave only tentative opinions for items provided them in some type of facsimile.

In other words, if the item examined is a copy, conclusions can only be tentative opinions instead of through scientific analysis and a statement of fact. Items #29 and #30 are the only two related to the ordering of the rifle which the experts used to determine if Oswald had written them. Yet as expected, these two items were both provided to the HSCA experts as COPIES, not Original documents.

Items #29 and #30 were retrieved from the Archives.

http://jfkassassinat...ll/hscahand.htm

29. March 12, 1963. U.S. postal money order No. 2,202,130,462 bearing handwritten fill-ins as follows: Klein's Sporting Goods, A. Hidell, P.O. Box 2915. Dallas, Tex. Blue ink, ballpoint pen. Location: Archives. (CE 788; JFK exhibit F-509A and 509B.) Note: Item #29 is acknowledged as a XEROX COPY made from the microfilm copy

30. March 12, 1963. Enlargement of microfilm reproduction of Klein's order form for rifle from A. Hidell,superimposed on envelop (sic), postmarked March 12, 1963, addressed to Klein's, Dept. 358, 227 W. Washington Street, Chicago 6, Ill., with return address: A. Hidell. P.O. Box 2915, Dallas, Tex. Location: Archives. (CE 773: Cadigan's exhibit 1; JFK exhibit F-504.)

FINDINGS AND CONCLUSIONS OF JOSEPH P. MC NALLY

(31) I conducted an examination and comparison of the signatures and writings on the items described in this report . At the time of the initial work in Washington, D.C., I made color photo-macrographs of the signatures and the writings on these documents. I then made slides from the photo-macrographs, which I subsequently projected and studied. The signatures were a particular focus of my examination.

(50) The same writing is on the U.S. Postal money order to Klein's (item 29) as is on the various letters and correspondence . The same writing is on the order form and envelope, (item 30) as is on the letters and on the inside cover of the passport (item 9) .

In essence, Mr. McNally made copies of copies from which to determine signature authenticity. According to his Conclusions section Item #29 is a “XEROX of Klein’s Money Order”

FINDINGS AND CONCLUSIONS OF CHARLES C. SCOTT

Photographic reproductions could only be compared visually with other photographic reproductions or with original documents. All conclusions based solely upon photographic reproductions are necessarilytentative and inconclusive. since they cannot reveal much about pen pressure and other dynamic qualities of handwriting. Further,they sometimes conceal, rather than reveal, evidence of tracings, alterations, erasures, or obliterated writing.

(140) Opinion. The original of the money order (item 29) was examined and compared with the original writings purporting to be Oswald's. I am of the opinion that the fill-ins on the face of this money order are in the handwriting of the same person as the signatures and writings purporting to be Oswald's .

Mr. Scott is the only one of the three who claims he saw Item 29 in the original form and contradicts the conclusive writings of the other two experts. It is unknown whether he actually saw an original while it seems strange that only one of the three has an original item.

FINDINGS AND CONCLUSIONS OF DAVID J. PURTELL

Procedures
(55) Items 1,2,4,5,6,7,8,9,11,12,15,16,17,18,19,20,22,23,24,25, 27,29,31,32,33,34,36,38,39,40,43,45,47,48,51,54,55,56,57,58,59,61,and 62 were studied, both visually and microscopically

Limitations on the examination

(71) Five items of evidence were not examined in the original, but were copies . Photocopies have several limitations. They do not reproduce all the fine details in handwriting needed in making an examination and comparison. At best, they do not produce as sharp an image as a properly produced photograph, and they lack tonal gradations, a result of the contrasting process of reproduction . In addition, it is possible to incorporate or insert changes and alterations into copies . A method frequently used is to paste together parts of documents to make one fraudulent document, which is then copied. If the first copy can pass inspection, it will be used ; if not, it will be reworked to eliminate all signs of alteration. This amended copy is then recopied for the finished product. This is usually referred to as the "cut and paste" method.

Item 29 was a Xerox copy made from a microfilm copy. Such a second generation copy has the defects of both processes.)

(Item 30 - Mr. PURTELL did not even bother to look at the poor reproduction of the Money Order)

So while these experts were quick to connect these copies of copies with other items that were determined to be written by the man Ruby killed we are to remember that this is 15 years later and these items have been in the hands of the same people who are trying to insure that Oswald and only Oswald is incriminated for the crime.

This HSCA realization casts serious doubts on the conclusions offered related to these items and adds yet another layer of uncorroborated evidence to ascertain that our Lee Harvey Oswald was materially connected to the evidence of the purchase and delivery of said rifle.

The above is adapted from David Josephs' article at CTKA on the rifle order. Which everyone should read to understand all the problems with this issue. They are endless.

[James DiEugenio]

Stay tuned, Armstrong's full reply is on the way.

You will get a full history of the whole money order process.

Edited November 17, 2015 by James DiEugenio

[David Von Pein]

A reply to Jim DiEugenio's Post #17....

jfk-archives.blogspot.com/2015/11/jfk-assassination-arguments-part-1065.html

Edited November 17, 2015 by David Von Pein

[Thomas Graves]

[...]

Even as a CT of sorts, I'm always troubled by the fact that the supposed conspirators are idiots when this best fits the theory and geniuses when that best fits the theory.

Lance,

Exactly.

I, too, am a CTer of sorts -- I'm undecided as to whether or not Oswald was a witting participant in the conspiracy.

Regardless, your point is well taken.

It reminds me of how the Harvey and Lee crowd assert that "Harvey" (aka "Marina's husband") and the mysterious CIA operative and putative assassin "Lee" must have looked a lot alike at times, but quite different at other times.

--Tommy

Edited November 17, 2015 by Thomas Graves

[David Von Pein]

Regarding 138 4159796, I have been able to find nothing. But my guess would be it is evidence of processing - perhaps an identification number of some sort placed by the Federal Reserve.

I couldn't find anything on the "138 4159796" number either. I searched Google Books and also the regular Google.com in the hopes that maybe I could determine whether or not the "138" portion of that 10-digit number could be some kind of "prefix" that would indicate the branch or the location of, say, a Federal Reserve Bank or some local bank (like First National in Chicago). But I came up empty (as I really expected to).

However, I'm still wondering about the "138" portion of that number, because it is set apart from the seven digits that come after it. Which makes me think the "138" could possibly represent a three-digit code for "Federal Reserve Bank of Chicago", or something along those lines.

I'm back to ~shrugging~ again. But, as I said before, somebody stamped that 10-digit number at the top of the Hidell money order. The question is: Who?

Edited November 17, 2015 by David Von Pein

[James DiEugenio]

Lance P:

I'm always troubled by the fact that the supposed conspirators are idiots when this best fits the theory and geniuses when that best fits the theory.

As I have alway said, for decades, you don't have to pull off the perfect crime.

You just have to control the cover up.

​If the WC had been any kind of real investigatory body, this thing would have been blown sky high in a month or so. Maybe less.

​But from the beginning, as Pat Speer can prove, they were figuring ways to cover it all up. In January they were trying to stitch together a way to make the Single Bullet Fantasy work. If that is so, then when did they ever look for a possible conspiracy?

Further, who would take seriously the likes of Harry Holmes as witness? He was clearly covering up all the problems with this so called rifle shipment.

​So, no, you don't have to mastermind anything. With people like Allen Dulles and Jerry Ford, who later admitted to MItterand that ithe WR full of holes, you knew you were in the right hands for a super duper cover up.

I mean just look at what an honest investigator like Schweiker said about the WC. It was a disgrace.

Edited November 17, 2015 by James DiEugenio

[David Von Pein]

As I've said in the past, James DiEugenio doesn't care how many people he has to trash and call L-words (falsehood tellers). There is no limit in Jim's all-encompassing world of "conspiracy" and "cover-up" in the JFK case.

In Jim's last short post alone, three people get thrown under the bus by Jim -- Holmes, Dulles, and Ford. All of them innocent of any wrong-doing (IMO), but all of them considered falsehood tellers of the first order by James DiEugenio of Los Angeles.

Absolutely pathetic.

Edited November 17, 2015 by David Von Pein

[Thomas Graves]

As I've said in the past, James DiEugenio doesn't care how many people he has to trash and call L-words (falsehood tellers). There is no limit in Jim's all-encompassing world of "conspiracy" and "cover-up" in the JFK case.

In Jim's last short post alone, three people get thrown under the bus by Jim -- Holmes, Dulles, and Ford. All of them innocent of any wrong-doing (IMO), but all of them considered falsehood tellers of the first order by James DiEugenio of Los Angeles.

Absolutely pathetic.

"Prevaricators" works for me.

--Tommy

[James DiEugenio]

LOL

Me too Tommy.

Geez, think Allen Dulles ever prevaricated?

How about all the BS he told Kennedy about the Bay of Pigs invasion.

PS:

Davey, you are soon going to gag on Harry Holmes.

You have clearly not familiarized yourself with the provenance of the money order.

Which is SOP for you.

Edited November 17, 2015 by James DiEugenio

[David Von Pein]

Davey, you are soon going to gag on Harry Holmes.

You have clearly not familiarized yourself with the provenance of the money order.

Does that mean that the LNers worldwide can finally expect to see some PROOF from a conspiracy theorist with respect to the things I mentioned at 3:41 AM EST this morning? You know, this stuff....

"Now, if only [John] Armstrong can somehow find a way to conveniently explain away how on Earth the Klein's endorsement stamp **AND** Lee Harvey Oswald's own handwriting (which was verified as Oswald's by at least 4 different handwriting analysts) managed to attach themselves to the CE788 Hidell U.S. Postal Money Order, then Mr. Armstrong will be home free on this issue. Until then, I'm afraid Armstrong is fighting an uphill battle. .... And the lack of a bank stamp on the back of the money order does not prove that either the Klein's stamp or Lee Oswald's handwriting are fraudulent markings on Commission Exhibit 788." -- DVP; 11/16/15 AM

Edited November 17, 2015 by David Von Pein

[James DiEugenio]

LOL ,I guess you don't read well.

[David G. Healy]

As I've said in the past, James DiEugenio doesn't care how many people he has to trash and call L-words (falsehood tellers). There is no limit in Jim's all-encompassing world of "conspiracy" and "cover-up" in the JFK case.

In Jim's last short post alone, three people get thrown under the bus by Jim -- Holmes, Dulles, and Ford. All of them innocent of any wrong-doing (IMO), but all of them considered falsehood tellers of the first order by James DiEugenio of Los Angeles.

Absolutely pathetic.

David, as difficult as the following will be to accept, you must in order to move forward.... DVP, you've been left in the dust. You are ringing hollow as do most self-defined lone nut, LHO did it all by his lonesome whiners...

Edited November 17, 2015 by David G. Healy

[Thomas Graves]

As I've said in the past, James DiEugenio doesn't care how many people he has to trash and call L-words (falsehood tellers). There is no limit in Jim's all-encompassing world of "conspiracy" and "cover-up" in the JFK case.

In Jim's last short post alone, three people get thrown under the bus by Jim -- Holmes, Dulles, and Ford. All of them innocent of any wrong-doing (IMO), but all of them considered falsehood tellers of the first order by James DiEugenio of Los Angeles.

Absolutely pathetic.

David, as difficult as the following will be to accept, you must in order to move forward.... DVP, you've been left in the dust. You are ringing hollow as do most self-defined lone nut, LHO did it all by his lonesome whiners...

So why don't you just ignore him?

--Tommy

[David Von Pein]

So why don't you just ignore him?

He can't. He's obsessed with me. Has been for years.

I wish he would start ignoring me, though, because the way he calls me "hon" and "toots" is creepy as all get out.

Can you imagine a 60+-year-old man talking like that over and over again on public forums? (Yikes.)

Edited November 17, 2015 by David Von Pein