New Poll: Are Shelley and / or Lovelady Walking Down Elm St. Extension in this Synchronized Couch - Darnell GIF?

[Robert Prudhomme]

Barto

1. Please show us, on a map of Dealey Plaza, where the "corner of the park" is, where Bill Shelley claimed, in his first day statement, to run across the street to and where he met Gloria Calvery crying. While you're at it, show us where the "little concrete island" is, and how it differs from the corner of the park.

2. Do you believe the woman shown below is Gloria Calvery?

3. Do you believe Bill Shelley spoke with Gloria Calvery, at the "corner of the park", before he and Billy Lovelady walked down the Elm St. extension to the rail yards?

[Guest]

1/ No idea Bob, why don't you point that out for us as it has no bearing for me, but a corner of a park is not a concrete island unless you can show me. And it doesn't matter, what matters is that he met her across the street and not on the steps.

2/Regarding the pix, no idea, not interested either since there is no way to ascertain this for 100% without more images.

3/What is there to believe, one can only assume. To me again it is not important, you are side tracking, the issue is whether Shelley and Lovelady left the steps almost immediately after the last shot was fired. I think I put some substantial points for that forward.

Edited December 22, 2015 by Bart Kamp

[Robert Prudhomme]

You did, Barto but, like most others, you completely ignore the timing required to make Bill Shelley's first day statement work with being able to see Shelley and Lovelady walking down the Elm St. extension toward the rail yards.

First off, neither Bill Shelley's or Billy Lovelady's first day statements, given within hours of the assassination on Nov. 22, 1963 say a single thing about either one of them walking to the rail yards. Bill Shelley claims, in this statement, to run across the Elm St. extension to the "corner of the park" (same thing as the "little concrete island" FYI) where he met Gloria Calvery crying, and learned of the President being shot. BUT, he then states he went inside the building and phoned his wife! Lovelady says nothing of leaving the steps at all, and that after it was all over, he went inside the TSBD and took some cops upstairs.

The importance of these 1st day statements, given within mere hours of the assassination, is twofold.

First, the event will never be fresher in their memories, and faulty or false recall is at a minimum

Second, I do not believe the coverup, an event wholly removed from the assassination, had actually taken shape that early, and if Shelley and Lovelady were going to tell lies (which they did next year) it would happen much later, once the people directing the coverup knew what they wanted L & S to say.

Something else to think about. If Shelley's 1st day statement was an untrue fabrication, what strategic value would there be in stating he ran across the Elm St. extension to speak to Gloria Calvery?

[Guest]

None of this has merit to the fact that Lovelady and Shelly left the steps almost immediately after the shots were fired, that is the issue, whether they went for a ping pong tournament in the rail road yard with the DPD is of no interest to me.

It is about eliminating who was left on those steps nothing more, nothing less.

Prayer Man Bob.........everything else is merely a diversion.

[Thomas Graves]

None of this has merit to the fact that Lovelady and Shelly left the steps almost immediately after the shots were fired, that is the issue, whether they went for a ping pong tournament in the rail road yard with the DPD is of no interest to me.

It is about eliminating who was left on those steps nothing more, nothing less.

Prayer Man Bob.........everything else is merely a diversion.

Stupid question: Why do we want to know who was left on the steps?

--Tommy

[James R Gordon]

Robert,

From what I can see from your post 18 you agree with Bart that Bill Shelly did leave the steps but that Lovelady remained on the steps. You argue that Shelly later returned and entered the building. So, as I see it, you accept that Shelly did leave the steps and cannot be counted as one of the individuals on the steps.

It appears to me you are halfway to agreeing. The discussion now is whether we can establish whether Lovelady remained on the steps or whether he also left the steps.

James

[James R Gordon]

Thomas,

As I see it, it is not a stupid question. If we can establish who is and who were not on the steps that might help in identifying who the individual PM is.

Eliminating who were not there really does help in establishing who might still be there. It would appear to be being able to both prove remained on the steps and where they were positioned would greatly assist in this search.

James

[Sandy Larsen]

I find Robert's argument compelling enough that I'm changing my vote to...

NO, SHELLEY AND LOVELADY ARE NOT WALKING DOWN ELM ST. EXTENSION

I'm not certain Lovelady even wore a plaid shirt that day, as the guy in the Couch/Darnell enlargement appears to be wearing.

P.S. I'm not convinced that Altgens 6 shows Lovelady wearing a plaid shirt. (What others think is Lovelady's plaid left sleeve is, IMO, Carl Jones' raised right forearm and hand.) And I'm not sure the guy wearing the red plaid shirt in some films is Lovelady. I think he might be, as of now, unidentified.

[Robert Prudhomme]

Robert,

From what I can see from your post 18 you agree with Bart that Bill Shelly did leave the steps but that Lovelady remained on the steps. You argue that Shelly later returned and entered the building. So, as I see it, you accept that Shelly did leave the steps and cannot be counted as one of the individuals on the steps.

It appears to me you are halfway to agreeing. The discussion now is whether we can establish whether Lovelady remained on the steps or whether he also left the steps.

James

Hi James

Yes, it is quite conceivable Shelley briefly left the steps to cross the street and speak with Calvery, although I don't believe this was his reason for crossing the street, and then returned to the steps and re-entered the building. However, considering how long it may have taken Calvery to return from down below, and how long she remained at the "corner of the park", this by no means is any kind of proof Shelley left the steps immediately after the shots; although his description of running across the street does infer he left immediately.

However, the discussion is not simply whether Lovelady left the steps or not, it is whether or not he and Shelley went down the Elm St. extension to the rail yards and, when 25 paces down the extension, looked back to see Baker and Truly climbing the front steps of the TSBD.

[Robert Prudhomme]

None of this has merit to the fact that Lovelady and Shelly left the steps almost immediately after the shots were fired, that is the issue, whether they went for a ping pong tournament in the rail road yard with the DPD is of no interest to me.

It is about eliminating who was left on those steps nothing more, nothing less.

Prayer Man Bob.........everything else is merely a diversion.

Yes, PM is quite important, but it is also important to clearly follow the trail of bread crumbs the conspirators (then and now) have laid down for us. This case is full of false leads designed to distract the attention of researchers away from uncovering what really happened.

Shelley and Lovelady walking down to the rail yards is one of these fabrications, and was invented to accomplish two things. The first was to discredit the testimony of Victoria Adams, who ran down the stairs in the first minute of the assassination and saw neither Oswald, Baker and Truly or the 2nd floor lunch room encounter. By delaying Shelley's and Lovelady's entrance into the rear of the building by 5-10 minutes, and by falsifying Adams' testimony to say she ran into Shelley and Lovelady near the rear stairs, before she went outside, established she was just a muddled young girl in 3" heels who could not possibly have made it downstairs before Truly and Baker had climbed the stairs.

The second reason to place Lovelady and Shelley walking down the extension is to establish that Baker went into the TSBD within 25 seconds of the last shot, and was able to make it to the 2nd floor lunch room in the time allotted by the WC.

While you may think PM is the only important thing here, it must be understood that getting Baker to the 2nd floor lunch room is equally important, and if the fabrications the WC came up with to put Baker there can be destroyed, we then cannot put Oswald in the 2nd floor lunch room immediately after the shooting.

If it can be proven Oswald was not in the 2nd floor lunch room immediately after the shooting, it then becomes possible for him to be anywhere, such as the top step of the entrance to the TSBD.

[Sandy Larsen]

Robert,

Please see my post #144 on this page:

http://educationforum.ipbhost.com/index.php?showtopic=22524&page=10#entry320924

I have a question for you that's related to this topic.

Thanks

[Chris Davidson]

Hi James

Yes, it is quite conceivable Shelley briefly left the steps to cross the street and speak with Calvery, although I don't believe this was his reason for crossing the street, and then returned to the steps and re-entered the building. However, considering how long it may have taken Calvery to return from down below, and how long she remained at the "corner of the park", this by no means is any kind of proof Shelley left the steps immediately after the shots; although his description of running across the street does infer he left immediately.

However, the discussion is not simply whether Lovelady left the steps or not, it is whether or not he and Shelley went down the Elm St. extension to the rail yards and, when 25 paces down the extension, looked back to see Baker and Truly climbing the front steps of the TSBD.

Robert,

https://spideroak.com/browse/share/JFKFILES/JFKVIDEOS

password: assassination

File Name: Steps-05

Down the steps they go.

About 4 seconds worth, unfortunately, it pans past them at that point.

chris

[Thomas Graves]

Fascinating posts, everybody, but I'd really like to get my thread back on topic.

So, ...

Would anyone else care to cast their vote on whether or not Lovelady and / or Shelley can be seen walking down Elm Street Extension in Couch / Darnell?

(Please specify for both people, e.g., Lovelady "No" , Shelley "Undecided")

Thank you,

--Tommy

Perhaps you guys can start a new thread, move your fascinating posts on this thread to it, and carry on elsewhere?

If you don't, I'll delete this whole thread.

Edited December 22, 2015 by Thomas Graves

[Robert Prudhomme]

Hi James

Yes, it is quite conceivable Shelley briefly left the steps to cross the street and speak with Calvery, although I don't believe this was his reason for crossing the street, and then returned to the steps and re-entered the building. However, considering how long it may have taken Calvery to return from down below, and how long she remained at the "corner of the park", this by no means is any kind of proof Shelley left the steps immediately after the shots; although his description of running across the street does infer he left immediately.

However, the discussion is not simply whether Lovelady left the steps or not, it is whether or not he and Shelley went down the Elm St. extension to the rail yards and, when 25 paces down the extension, looked back to see Baker and Truly climbing the front steps of the TSBD.

Robert,

https://spideroak.com/browse/share/JFKFILES/JFKVIDEOS

password: assassination

File Name: Steps-05

Down the steps they go.

About 4 seconds worth, unfortunately, it pans past them at that point.

chris

Interesting gif Chris. Part of a reenactment?

[Guest]

None of this has merit to the fact that Lovelady and Shelly left the steps almost immediately after the shots were fired, that is the issue, whether they went for a ping pong tournament in the rail road yard with the DPD is of no interest to me.

It is about eliminating who was left on those steps nothing more, nothing less.

Prayer Man Bob.........everything else is merely a diversion.

Yes, PM is quite important, but it is also important to clearly follow the trail of bread crumbs the conspirators (then and now) have laid down for us. This case is full of false leads designed to distract the attention of researchers away from uncovering what really happened.

Shelley and Lovelady walking down to the rail yards is one of these fabrications, and was invented to accomplish two things. The first was to discredit the testimony of Victoria Adams, who ran down the stairs in the first minute of the assassination and saw neither Oswald, Baker and Truly or the 2nd floor lunch room encounter. By delaying Shelley's and Lovelady's entrance into the rear of the building by 5-10 minutes, and by falsifying Adams' testimony to say she ran into Shelley and Lovelady near the rear stairs, before she went outside, established she was just a muddled young girl in 3" heels who could not possibly have made it downstairs before Truly and Baker had climbed the stairs.

The second reason to place Lovelady and Shelley walking down the extension is to establish that Baker went into the TSBD within 25 seconds of the last shot, and was able to make it to the 2nd floor lunch room in the time allotted by the WC.

While you may think PM is the only important thing here, it must be understood that getting Baker to the 2nd floor lunch room is equally important, and if the fabrications the WC came up with to put Baker there can be destroyed, we then cannot put Oswald in the 2nd floor lunch room immediately after the shooting.

If it can be proven Oswald was not in the 2nd floor lunch room immediately after the shooting, it then becomes possible for him to be anywhere, such as the top step of the entrance to the TSBD.

I already pointed out that their timings with regards Victoria Adams gave the WC a way out and dismiss her testimony. I also mentioned that the twos WC testimony was a load of rubbish in comparison to their statements.

Regarding the Baker Truly fugezi, that went even more fubar with their testimony, which is something I made a mention of as well in my article.

So I am a bit at a loss what you are trying to point out to me, no offense intended but you are preaching to the choir here.

And the 2nd floor lunch room encounter is probably the biggest lie of the whole thing, and I pointed that out in my movie in a 20 minute lecture.

In V2 this will be even addressed more severely

Now then on to more important matters: who else is going to email Megan Bryant at the 6th floor museum and ask for the 1st generation Darnell film to be released thru 4K scans, any takers?