New Poll: Are Shelley and / or Lovelady Walking Down Elm St. Extension in this Synchronized Couch - Darnell GIF?

[Sandy Larsen]

PS You're wrong. The guy smoking outside the TSBD and the guy sitting in the office watching Oswald go by are the same guy -- Billy Nolan Lovelady -- who was also captured up on the sixth floor with the police and the detectives in the Alyea film.

It doesn't surprise me that you believe that

[Thomas Graves]

PS You're wrong. The guy smoking outside the TSBD and the guy sitting in the office watching Oswald go by are the same guy -- Billy Nolan Lovelady -- who was also captured up on the sixth floor with the police and the detectives in the Alyea film.

It doesn't surprise me that you believe that

Wow, what a surprise.

[Guest]

Ok, I made this post on my website because Bob Prudhomme pulled up an old post from ROKC by Lee Farley, that I decided to dig into the paperwork a little more yesterday, I want to thank you for that since this will go into V2 of Prayer Man The Movie

I thought the imagery was already plain obvious, but I tossed in 4 statements (2 each) in comparison to their WC testimony as well.

http://www.prayer-man.com/billy-nolan-lovelady-and-bill-shelly-did-leave-the-steps-almost-immediately-after-the-shots-were-fired/

I only have one question, looking at Lovelady's hand written statement, does it not look erratic the way it is penned down? Like there are pauses before he continues? Not that this is some major thing, but the fluency of writing that doc looks kind of odd.

Bart

I see you have doctored the thread on ROKC that you posted the link to. The first post of the thread by Lee Farley, although partially quoted in the next post, has been deleted. A bit ironic, coming from the group that is currently hounding Duncan MacRae about deceptive and misleading practices, wouldn't you say?

Was deleted for entirely different reasons Bob, but the discussion in that post will continue.

You are way of the mark with what you assumed, but there's no way you could have known so I will leave it at that and in the next few days you will see.

Best

[Clive Largey]

...

2. Do you believe the woman shown below is Gloria Calvery?

3. Do you believe Bill Shelley spoke with Gloria Calvery, at the "corner of the park", before he and Billy Lovelady walked down the Elm St. extension to the rail yards?

Isn't that scene from Darnell after he left the rail road yards and came back to the plaza? Does anyone know for sure?

Three women and one boy by the pergola could be a big clue, perhaps an obvious one.

Did anyone ever consider this?

I wouldn't put it up if I didn't halfway like it.

Images on the right from Linda's finds in the "Who saw Baker..." thread.

Size/build looks good, look how her hairstyle changed since high school, it's close, (I removed the glasses btw but avoided the area near her eyebrows), that dandy little nose is a great match and what if she was a "little" redhead just like "Hicks"? Would it help?

[Clive Largey]

As for "is that Lovelady in Couch", I'll go with yes it is, for now. Shelley? Could well be him too.

Both curious enough to follow the tipped off cop (Smith seems to have been tipped off by an unknown woman right in front of the steps and sent away from the TSBD exit/entrance but Baker sees through the bluff(? ignores her anyway) and goes immediately inside).

Not sure this is any better than what's been shared before but it's another one to add and I'd blow it up more but I'd be worried that some would start seeing things that simply aren't there.

No ghosts.

May have arrived on the steps with the women or may have been near there already, who can tell from this? Looks to have a shirt collar and balding but again who knows, right?

I've tried to see someone in black blocking Oswald but I don't and it looks like his left leg is slightly bent but it could actually be the heater, or both?

Something like this,

One step beyond.

[Robert Prudhomme]

...

2. Do you believe the woman shown below is Gloria Calvery?

3. Do you believe Bill Shelley spoke with Gloria Calvery, at the "corner of the park", before he and Billy Lovelady walked down the Elm St. extension to the rail yards?

Isn't that scene from Darnell after he left the rail road yards and came back to the plaza? Does anyone know for sure?

Three women and one boy by the pergola could be a big clue, perhaps an obvious one.

Did anyone ever consider this?

I wouldn't put it up if I didn't halfway like it.

Images on the right from Linda's finds in the "Who saw Baker..." thread.

Size/build looks good, look how her hairstyle changed since high school, it's close, (I removed the glasses btw but avoided the area near her eyebrows), that dandy little nose is a great match and what if she was a "little" redhead just like "Hicks"? Would it help?

I've thought about that, too. It would be great if Linda would devote her sleuthing abilities to Westbrook, Hicks and Reed.

P.S.

If it was Calvery, it would still place her down by the pergola long after all the action up the street was over.

Edited December 29, 2015 by Robert Prudhomme

[Darren Hastings]

Bob,

nothing ventured, nothing gained.

Secondly who says that with a handful, a momentum could not be gained.

But what's more interesting is you rather fill page after page here and wherever else discussing the film and so does Tomas Graves (you will not get the magic word from me sunshine) than write one email asking about it.

Your intentions are crystal clear.

Thank you and sleep well.

B

And what, pray tell, are you implying with that remark, Barto?

Let me tell you something, oh arrogant son of ROKC. Are you not smart enough to figure out they would burn that film before they ever gave it up, if it had the potential to exonerate LHO?

For that matter, they likely burnt the damn thing years ago, along with any other evidence that might upset the apple cart.

Do you have any concept at all just who we are dealing with here? Do you not think they are not already twelve steps ahead of your troop of Boy Scouts, and are not the least bit intimidated by anything you do?

Get a grip on reality, man!

Arrogant? nah not in the least, I learn every day, especially about you!

Son of ROKC? I am a mod there nothing more.

The very 1st gen copy was used in Stone's JFK The movie accompanying documentary Beyond JFK The Question Of Conspiracy

The 6th floor museum, as per message sent to Darren Hastings by Gary Mack and posted on this forum, has this copy.

Things like that do not get destroyed, unless of course you have the information and/or evidence that this has happened. So I presume you are speculating and putting up barriers that do not actually exist.

But what strikes me mostly as odd Bob is the energy you waste on me and these posts whereas you could have sent Megan Bryant an email by now already.

This I just don't understand, you actually wonder why the progress is so slow?

This year we got lucky and managed to nail the best image of Prayer Man In Wiegman, it took one of us at ROKC to physically go to NARA and nab it from the Richard E Sprague collection after I found out it was there. It is in the film.

Now for the next stage I wish David Lifton would give me a scan of his copy.......

You have a good day Bob!

Hi Bart,

Just for accuracy, the info relayed to me from Gary Mack about the film being in the custody of the 6th floor museum was sent in an email from Gary to myself. It wasn't via this forums PM function. (Not sure if that's what you meant but just wanted to be clear)

I'd be happy to email the new curator if you'd be kind enough to share the email address with me (via PM or post here if you like).

Cheers,

Darren

[Guest]

PM sent Darren, and thanks for helping with this, much appreciated.

[Sandy Larsen]

...

2. Do you believe the woman shown below is Gloria Calvery?

3. Do you believe Bill Shelley spoke with Gloria Calvery, at the "corner of the park", before he and Billy Lovelady walked down the Elm St. extension to the rail yards?

Isn't that scene from Darnell after he left the rail road yards and came back to the plaza? Does anyone know for sure?

Three women and one boy by the pergola could be a big clue, perhaps an obvious one.

Did anyone ever consider this?

I wouldn't put it up if I didn't halfway like it.

Images on the right from Linda's finds in the "Who saw Baker..." thread.

Size/build looks good, look how her hairstyle changed since high school, it's close, (I removed the glasses btw but avoided the area near her eyebrows), that dandy little nose is a great match and what if she was a "little" redhead just like "Hicks"? Would it help?

Was it common for a woman to bleach her hair back then?

[John Iacoletti]

Sorry if I’m beating a dead horse here, but I’ve been told by an unreliable source that Sandy Larsen once posted two images showing that “plaid bars” on Lovelady's shirt were a perfect match with the shirt of the man walking up the Elm extension. Is that accurate?

[Guest]

I'd like to see that as well.....

You know what Sandy? I' will do this.

You, Tom Graves and Doyle need this. The so called Gloria Calvery person. There is nothing, and I mean nothing from a evidentiary p.o.v. that absolutely nails her ID.

I would gladly accept it but the proof is simply not there, and I have been in contact with Craig Calvery and he could not tell either.

Here is Betzner 3, this woman could be wearing glasses or not. The detail is simply lacking to confirm this.

But let's for the sake of it assume it is her and focus on her skirt

 

Now we bring in Darnell. And focus on the person going up the stairs and the ID area that makes this Calvery.

The area we are talking about inside the actual image  is this.

Let's zoom in shall we? Going from an enlargement already above to further increase. So this is the actual area you three are talking about.

 

Some different frames that show something perhaps?

Nope

Area enhanced....different frame

 

Nope

 

This shows how rubbish the Calvery on the steps theory is from a visual p.o.v., nor is there anything to support it from a documentary view that timestamps this!

 

*********************************************************************************************************************************************************************

 

So let's have a look at 'Lovelady' on those steps in Darnell then

 

Darnell in its original size!

 

6 Close ups of 'Billy'

 

No Calvery, and no Lovelady.

 

Here he is, together with Bill Shelley.

 

Edited March 17, 2019 by Bart Kamp
added text and pic.

[Andrej Stancak]

It is a tough call. There are good arguments on both sides to claim either possibility: that Lovelady and Shelley are out and walking, or that they are still in the doorway during the moments when Darnell filmed the doorway. I am inclined, after giving it considerable time and effort, to prefer the latter possibility.

1. The doorway in Darnell was captured only some 30 seconds after the last shot. At that moment, people were still in shock and frozen and had no reason to walk seomewhere else right away. Therefore, there is still continuity with the preceding Wiegman scene in which both Lovelady and Shelley are seen all right. Bill Shelley is the man in a dark suit and wearing a black tie and standing at the centre of the top landing. Lovelady is seen descending the steps in the last Wiegman frames, so he could be where some think he was in Darnell, on the second step and very close to the western wall. It is possible that Lovelady stopped at the second step at the moment just after the Wiegman sequence ended and took the exact spot previously occupied by Carl Jones.

2. I have modelled both men of interest in Darnell. The man in the front is leaning towards his left at an angle which is almost equal if not equal to the leaning seen in Lovelady in Altgens6. The body height of that man was 5'8'', give or take half of an inch. The overlay with a realistic model of Lovelady works well. This does not prove identity on itself, however, at least does not exclude Lovelady. As far as Shelley's figure is concerned, he himself told the Warren Commission that he did not do anything for about a minute after the last shot, meaning he stood in Darnell at the spot where he is seen in Altgens and Wiegman. I was able to reconstruct his figure by fitting a man of about 5'4''-5'6''. The man standing in the centre of the doorway in Darnell is shorter by at least 2 inches than Lovelady. This is consistent with reports of people who met and knew Bill Shelley. According to these reports (acquired and reported by Bob Proudhomme in the original "Oswald leaving the TSBD?" thread), Shelley was 5'6'' as a maximum. My reconstruction of Altgens6 shows him 5'4'' or 5'4 1/2''. 

3. As Shelley was shorter than Lovelady, this poses problems to the possibility of these two men being captured by Couch(Darnell) in front of the Depository because the man resembling Lovelady is shorter than then man believed to be Shelley.

4.   The men seen walking in Couch/Darnell do not appear to walk together. They arrived to the spot at which they look as close to each other from different directions and with different speeds; they certainly did not walk in synchrony before the snapshot showing them close together.

5. Likewise, each of the two men continues walking in different directions after the snapshot showing them close together. The men resembling Lovelady walks toward the railroad tracks, and the man resembling Shelley slows down and seems to stop at the concrete island. 

6. Lovelady has an orthopaedic problem manifesting in having his head too much forward relative to the front plane of his chest. This causes rounded back or a hunch. I cannot see this feature in the man walking in front of the building.

7. I took the original frames of the Gerda Dunkel GIF and analysed them one by one. I believe that the frame showing both men in this GIF as if walking together has been enhanced to an extreme. Looking at the original frame, there is no bold spot on the top of "Lovelady's" head.

8. Carl Jones is seen to arrive to the concrete island and stepping on the lamp there after walking quite fast from the front steps of the doorway towards the concrete island. He would be the first person from those standing on the steps to arrive to the concrete island because his way was unimpeded. It would be difficult for Shelley to overrun him from his post at the centre of the top step (especially after he said he had remained standing there for about a minute).

Thanks everyone for an interesting discussion on what is one of most puzzling questions regarding whereabouts of these two men.

 

 

 

 

Edited March 17, 2019 by Andrej Stancak

[Guest]

It isn't a tough call at all

You present nothing supporting your theory, which you seem to cling on till the cows come home.

Beliefs are odd................

[Denis Morissette]

It is hard to believe that is not Lovelady with the man thought to be Shelley. The shirt, the haircut, even the bald spot on the head. Come on.

[Sandy Larsen]

7 hours ago, Denis Morissette said:

It is hard to believe that is not Lovelady with the man thought to be Shelley. The shirt, the haircut, even the bald spot on the head. Come on.

 

Well, then who is the other balding guy who took Lovelady's place on the steps immediately after Lovelady left??

You can see him here, standing right in front of Prayer Man, talking face-to-face with the Girl in All Black:

 

And below I show him turning his head to his left and back, in an infinitely looping animated GIF I made. Notice that you can see the hair on the back of his head when he turns.

 

 

But, of course, the truth is that that is still Lovelady standing there. And the woman he is talking to -- Woman in All Black -- is Gloria Calvery, who I will get to in a later post.