One Last Thing Before Xmas Eve: 2nd Floor Lunch Room Encounter

[Ray Mitcham]

When was the anteroom into the lunch room first called a "vestibule" and by whom?

Vestibule is derived from the latin vestibulum --"vesti" meaning clothes and "bulum" meaning place. It was the place where clothes were put on when exiting the house.

Looks like the powers that be, looked for a vestibule after Oz saying was that's where he was and came up with the small anteroom on the second floor.

[Thomas Graves]

The word vestibule is misused in conjunction with the area of the 2nd floor lunchroom, that area with the pneumatic door is NOT a vestibule. It's use is actually deceptive!

Wiki says:

In contemporary usage, a vestibule constitutes an area surrounding the exterior door. It acts as an antechamber between the exterior and the interior structure. Often it connects the doorway to a lobby or hallway. It is the space one occupies once passing the door, but not yet in the main interior of the building.

And just go to Google and check the images, all of them show that it is a space between the outer area and the lobby etc.

Not a small void on a higher floor between a landing and office/corridors/lunchroom as such.

When Holmes and co. mentioned vestibule, make no mistake it was on the first floor.

The lunchroom encounter is dead in the water any way.

Barto (and other members),

I think you would agree that "vestibule" is a word that the vast majority of Americans are either unfamiliar with or would tend to misuse in a Rodney Dangerfield [q.v.] kind of way, and that the words "foyer" and "anteroom" are strange / exotic / intellectual-sounding words for most Americans, too

Bearing that in mind, I think Oswald used "vestibule" (improperly) to designate the compact, fully-enclosed, strangely-shaped, five-sided, three-doored, section of passageway / hallway near the second floor lunchroom, not realizing that he should have called it "the foyer," "the anteroom," or my personal, Ed LeDoux-inspired favorite, "the compact, three-doored, five-sided, room-like section of hallway / passageway next to the second floor lunch room."

At least Oswald "gave it a shot" (pardon the pun) when he called that strange area next to the second-floor lunch room "the vestibule," I seriously wouldn't have known the correct individual word to use (i.e. "foyer" or "anteroom", and in my stupid, Rodney Dangerfield kind of way, I think "vestibule" sounds pretty damn good, don't you, Barto?

Hell, at least he didn't say "closet" or some other word that even uneducated Americans know the meaning of.

--Tommy

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rodney_Dangerfield

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DODvxqkUlac

Edited February 2, 2016 by Thomas Graves

[Thomas Graves]

On 1/31/2016 at 11:31 AM, Thomas Graves said:

On 1/31/2016 at 11:02 AM, Michael Cross said:

Semantics. Not sure the argument caries weight either way.

But, another word would be foyer.

Michael,

Thanks for that.

We actually agree on something for a change.

It's from the French and is pronounced foy-YAY, correct?

I wonder if that word was in Oswald's vocabulary, or in the vocabularies of any of those highly-cultured TSBD employees.

I know the word, very rarely use it, and didn't even think of it in the context of the "lunch room encounter." But, upon reflection, it is perfect.

For what it's worth, only 2% of the other U.S. students who took the same College Board exam I took in 1966 (or was it 1965?) did better than I did on the "verbal intelligence" part, so I'm thinking now -- if I didn't think to use that word earlier in this post, what are the chances Oswald would have used it ("foyer"), or the Ray Mitcham-suggested "anteroom," to refer to anything in the building, and / or to have used either of those words correctly?

Come to think of it, Oswald did pretty gosh darn good to use that there intellectual-soundin' word "vestibule" to describe that thingy up there on the second floor, didn't he?

It is, after all, much more descriptive and accurate (to his highly-cultured fella Texans, any-hoo) than Ed LeDoux's preferred "hallway" or "passageway" or "corridor'

Just a-sayin'

--Tommy

Edited and Bumped

Edited March 26, 2017 by Thomas Graves

[Guest]

Thomas you are reaching.....

There was no vestibule on the 2nd floor of the TSBD.

[Thomas Graves]

On 2/2/2016 at 0:30 AM, Bart Kamp said:

[...]

There was no vestibule on the 2nd floor of the TSBD.

Barto,

In all sincerity, I totally agree with you on that

But I think you can see how it's plausible that Oswald called that strange little area next to the second floor lunch room a "vestibule" by mistake, for the simple reason that he didn't know the words "foyer" or "anteroom."

Or perhaps someone (Holmes? Fritz?) ignorantly claimed that Oswald said "vestibule" to describe that place on the second floor. Or maybe somebody (Holmes? Fritz?) paraphrased Oswald and ignorantly decided to use that incorrect word.

That's all I'm trying to say.

--Tommy

PS Wasn't Holmes the only person to ascribe the word "vestibule" to Oswald?

Anybody else?

Edited March 26, 2017 by Thomas Graves

[Guest]

Oswald called the vestibule the area between the front door of the TSBD and the double doors leading to the shipping area. And Holmes is the only one, afaik, who mentioned this.

Anyone using this word in conjunction with the tiny area behind the pneumatic door leading to the lunch room and the offices on the 2nd floor is using it wrongly and this is more evidence that Oswald was stopped on the 1st floor..

It is inappropriately used in that context, and if you go to Mary Ferrell than you can see in the docs there that is connected with outer space, as well except in the JFK and RFK murder cases (go figure.....).

Look at Wiki/Google and the chances are extremely slim for you to connect it with a spacial situation as the 2nd floor lunchroom.

And that's that with the 2nd floor lunchroom fugezi.

Mr. BELIN. By the way, where did this policeman stop him when he was coming down the stairs at the Book Depository on the day of the shooting?

Mr. HOLMES. He said it was in the vestibule.
Mr. BELIN. He said he was in the vestibule?
Mr. HOLMES. Or approaching the door to the vestibule. He was just coming, apparently, and I have never been in there myself. Apparently there is two sets of doors, and he had come out to this front part.
Mr. BELIN. Did he state it was on what floor?
Mr. HOLMES. First floor. The front entrance to the first floor.

Edited February 2, 2016 by Bart Kamp

[Richard Gilbride]

Robert Prudhomme, post #174- I still maintain Truly was in the vestibule no longer than 4-5 seconds, requiring the automatic closer to be VERY fast, as Adams and Styles would require time to cross the 2nd floor landing.

And so this solidifies the hoax hypothesis via your interpretation of Truly's length of time in the vestibule, ignoring the 6 conditions (post #131) that oblige us to view this time-length through the lens of the incident's reality.

I mentioned that you had cherry-picked an item of testimony and that your pre-judgment was concluding that it supported a hoax and only a hoax. It does not appear to me that you reflected very long on my complaint.

Truly, as a conspirator, would be more concerned with what Baker was doing than about some office girls he may have heard on the stairway.

...Truly himself was in and out of there so quickly...

We don't know that. Again, this is how you interpret the testimony. We don't know whether or not there was a pregnant pause as Truly moseyed up beside Baker.

And I want to re-emphasize that the hoaxers, as this thread has progressed, still have not addressed the 6 critiques I listed in post #131. Without a successful counter to these critiques, their hypothesis will remain fool's gold. No amount of rhetoric, wishful thinking, or looking-through-a-glass-darkly together will change that requirement.

[Thomas Graves]

Anyone using this word ["vestibule"] in conjunction with the tiny area behind the pneumatic door leading to the lunch room and the offices on the 2nd floor is using it wrongly, ...

I agree, Barto.. But it's easy to imagine that most people, myself included, would use the word "vestibule" because we don't know the word "foyer" or "anteroom" very well, and don't feel like saying "the tiny area behind the pneumatic door leading to the lunch room and the offices on the 2nd floor," or words to that effect.

[..]

It is inappropriately used in that context, and if you go to Mary Ferrell than you can see in the docs there that is connected with outer space, as well except in the JFK and RFK murder cases ...

With all due respect, could someone please translate or paraphrase this sentence so that I might understand what Barto's trying to say?

Thank you,

--Tommy

Edited February 3, 2016 by Thomas Graves

[Richard Gilbride]

Ed Ledoux, post #143- What Gilbride would posit is a sloped line on a graph where either party being fast or slow shows up as a higher or lower floor (vertical) and speed in the horizontal. This line would need one exact point where both parties' speeds and timing allow each, party of two, a chance to pass each other. Yet we saw no Adams and Styles re-enactment with Truly and Baker included.

Of course best to leave unknown variables out of an equation if you want a known condition.

Speed (i.e. distance/time) doesn't change very much- except when they stopped at the west elevator- and won't yield much information. I think the relation you mean to describe is higher-or-lower-floor vs. elapsed-time.

And just because a re-enactment wasn't attempted doesn't mean that we have to hide our heads in the sand and conclude that it's forever unknowable.

The timing situation is illustrated in Inside Job pp. 27-29. Fast-forward to the answer: 50 seconds. Baker is rounding the stairs to the 2nd-floor landing. Truly is somewhere up ahead of him. Adams & Styles are nearing the 3rd-floor landing. The pieces to the puzzle align when one visualizes Truly & Baker making a "mad dash" across the warehouse. This was Michael T. Griffith's insight.

...lot of black men...

C'mon, Ed, you know that Piper and West are the only two black employees not outside or up on the 5th. It was West who almost certainly was still sitting at his wrapping paper table when Baker got to the west elevator, then got up when Adams encountered him by the east elevator.

To make the case for Piper you'd have to have him going back to West's area and sitting down. But he testified he was "standing right there where they make coffee."

Baker and Truly spotted by Garner, after Adams and Styles descended, deposits your math course in the circular file professor...

The purpose of Garner's statement was to refute the WC argument that Adams must have gone downstairs several minutes after the shots, because otherwise she should have encountered LHO fleeing down the steps (thus no re-enactment). The Stroud document, coupled with our knowledge of the timelines, gives the unavoidable conclusion that T & B were in the lunchroom when A & S passed.

http://jfk.hood.edu/Collection/Weisberg%20Subject%20Index%20Files/E%20Disk/Ellis%20Starvis%20Major/Hem%2001.pdf

Major Stavis Ellis, who rode in front of the motorcade relayed his talks after the assassination with and he said This officer (as told by ELLIS) stated he was directly under the building when the shots were fired. They blocked the main, entrance and after the supervisor arrived he started up the stairs. The building was the Book Depository. Upon going up the stairs, he and the supervisor encountered someone on either the third or fourth floor. This person was drinking water from the water cooler- he did not stop because the supervisor advised the officer that the man was an employee. MAJOR ELLIS stated this officer later identified the man by the water cooler as LEE HARVEY OSWALD!-

I have confirmation that the water cooler was between the men's and women's bathroom on the second floor. Baker mentioned a water cooler that he saw Oswald drinking from. Thanks to Sean Murphy for this. Where does this leave the LRE (lunchroom encounter)? Well, it gives yet another location which disputes the LRE/Alamo.

Please note that Harold Weisberg typed in at the top- "I do not recall my source on this. Perhaps Garrison." And that the document begins with- "From a conversation that occurred at Ft. Chaffin, Arkansas, during the period 22 July- 5 August." No year given. So it is evidently information Ellis relayed several years after the assassination. Presumably this information pertained to a conversation Ellis & Baker had shortly after the assassination.

Not only doers the location of the water cooler not jive with the other pertinent detail rendered- someone on either the third or fourth floor. Memory plays tricks with witnesses, and we have no certitude that the water cooler wasn't a detail noted from a later conversation or later visit by Ellis or Baker.

And no certitude that this isn't an embellished memory of Baker's or mis-recall by Ellis.

No More Silence, p. 151- Stavis Ellis: Baker said that he saw something that would indicate that somebody was shooting out of that window. When he got off his motor near the front of that building, he told the man in charge of that operation and they went inside. They couldn' t get the freight elevator down, so Baker and the man went up the stairs. That's when they encountered Oswald drinking a Coke on the second floor. Baker was told that he was all right, that he worked there. That's where Baker messed up! He should have sealed off the building and not let anybody out till it was ascertained that nobody there had anything to do with it. He could have saved an officer's life had he arrested him there, had he done what he was supposed to have done. We don't say anything to him about it; officers make mistakes just like everybody else.

On the other hand, Baker wasn't real bright either. Before he went to Washington to testify to the Warren Commission he went into Captain Lawrence's office and said, "Captain, I've got to go to Washington. Don't you think the city ought to buy me a suit?" Ain't that some bull crap? I don't know why, but the boys called him "Momma Son". But he was always slow. That's the reason I didn't have him in a responsible position in that escort. When I got the assignment from the chief to put somebody on that press bus, I put him there to just trail along."

You put together a good response, Ed, but you're making a huge systemic error by accepting the hoax hypothesis whilst neglecting the 6 conditions I laid out in post #131.

[Thomas Graves]

Ed Ledoux, post #143- What Gilbride would posit is a sloped line on a graph where either party being fast or slow shows up as a higher or lower floor (vertical) and speed in the horizontal. This line would need one exact point where both parties' speeds and timing allow each, party of two, a chance to pass each other. Yet we saw no Adams and Styles re-enactment with Truly and Baker included.

Of course best to leave unknown variables out of an equation if you want a known condition.

Speed (i.e. distance/time) doesn't change very much- except when they stopped at the west elevator- and won't yield much information. I think the relation you mean to describe is higher-or-lower-floor vs. elapsed-time.

And just because a re-enactment wasn't attempted doesn't mean that we have to hide our heads in the sand and conclude that it's forever unknowable.

The timing situation is illustrated in Inside Job pp. 27-29. Fast-forward to the answer: 50 seconds. Baker is rounding the stairs to the 2nd-floor landing. Truly is somewhere up ahead of him. Adams & Styles are nearing the 3rd-floor landing. The pieces to the puzzle align when one visualizes Truly & Baker making a "mad dash" across the warehouse. This was Michael T. Griffith's insight.

...lot of black men...

C'mon, Ed, you know that Piper and West are the only two black employees not outside or up on the 5th. It was West who almost certainly was still sitting at his wrapping paper table when Baker got to the west elevator, then got up when Adams encountered him by the east elevator.

To make the case for Piper you'd have to have him going back to West's area and sitting down. But he testified he was "standing right there where they make coffee."

Baker and Truly spotted by Garner, after Adams and Styles descended, deposits your math course in the circular file professor...

The purpose of Garner's statement was to refute the WC argument that Adams must have gone downstairs several minutes after the shots, because otherwise she should have encountered LHO fleeing down the steps (thus no re-enactment). The Stroud document, coupled with our knowledge of the timelines, gives the unavoidable conclusion that T & B were in the lunchroom when A & S passed.

http://jfk.hood.edu/Collection/Weisberg%20Subject%20Index%20Files/E%20Disk/Ellis%20Starvis%20Major/Hem%2001.pdf

Major Stavis Ellis, who rode in front of the motorcade relayed his talks after the assassination with and he said This officer (as told by ELLIS) stated he was directly under the building when the shots were fired. They blocked the main, entrance and after the supervisor arrived he started up the stairs. The building was the Book Depository. Upon going up the stairs, he and the supervisor encountered someone on either the third or fourth floor. This person was drinking water from the water cooler- he did not stop because the supervisor advised the officer that the man was an employee. MAJOR ELLIS stated this officer later identified the man by the water cooler as LEE HARVEY OSWALD!-

I have confirmation that the water cooler was between the men's and women's bathroom on the second floor. Baker mentioned a water cooler that he saw Oswald drinking from. Thanks to Sean Murphy for this. Where does this leave the LRE (lunchroom encounter)? Well, it gives yet another location which disputes the LRE/Alamo.

Please note that Harold Weisberg typed in at the top- "I do not recall my source on this. Perhaps Garrison." And that the document begins with- "From a conversation that occurred at Ft. Chaffin, Arkansas, during the period 22 July- 5 August." No year given. So it is evidently information Ellis relayed several years after the assassination. Presumably this information pertained to a conversation Ellis & Baker had shortly after the assassination.

Not only doers the location of the water cooler not jive with the other pertinent detail rendered- someone on either the third or fourth floor. Memory plays tricks with witnesses, and we have no certitude that the water cooler wasn't a detail noted from a later conversation or later visit by Ellis or Baker.

And no certitude that this isn't an embellished memory of Baker's or mis-recall by Ellis.

No More Silence, p. 151- Stavis Ellis: Baker said that he saw something that would indicate that somebody was shooting out of that window. When he got off his motor near the front of that building, he told the man in charge of that operation and they went inside. They couldn' t get the freight elevator down, so Baker and the man went up the stairs. That's when they encountered Oswald drinking a Coke on the second floor. Baker was told that he was all right, that he worked there. That's where Baker messed up! He should have sealed off the building and not let anybody out till it was ascertained that nobody there had anything to do with it. He could have saved an officer's life had he arrested him there, had he done what he was supposed to have done. We don't say anything to him about it; officers make mistakes just like everybody else.

On the other hand, Baker wasn't real bright either. Before he went to Washington to testify to the Warren Commission he went into Captain Lawrence's office and said, "Captain, I've got to go to Washington. Don't you think the city ought to buy me a suit?" Ain't that some bull crap? I don't know why, but the boys called him "Momma Son". But he was always slow. That's the reason I didn't have him in a responsible position in that escort. When I got the assignment from the chief to put somebody on that press bus, I put him there to just trail along."

You put together a good response, Ed, but you're making a huge systemic error by accepting the hoax hypothesis whilst neglecting the 6 conditions I laid out in post #131.

Richard,

You should proof read your post for confusing blanks, awkward constructions, missing background, etc. Also, the link is dead.

--Tommy

Edited February 3, 2016 by Thomas Graves

[Guest]

Gilbride’s 6 points, which are little word/mind games in itself, for that you already ought to be admonished!

1) every single item of lunchroom-related evidence has a mundane explanation that supports the incident's reality, no answer is given.

-Truly had no idea about Baker’s “I saw a glimpse through the window” until a day or so before the WC testimony, let alone the sheer difficulty of the angle being able to see him, all thoroughly explained by others and in my movie.

Michael T. Griffith writes in 2012 in his essay on the Baker - Oswald Encounter:

Interestingly, Truly testified that he knew nothing about Baker's having supposedly spotted movement through the door's window until a few days before he testified (3 H 226).

Said Truly, "I never knew until a day or two ago that he said he saw a movement, saw a man going away from him" (3 H 226).

-Baker’s testimony went off the record 5 times or even more during the WC. Suspicious nahhh.

-Oswald’s position inside the lunchroom changed/progressed from sitting at the table, to standing at the coke machine to having a coke standing next to the cupboards, this bit shafts the testimony by T and B already BIG TIME: the point where he was actually standing in relation to the catching of a glimpse through that door and his actual position while standing near the machine or sitting at the table is a huge problem. You see if he had a coke already what on earth was he doing near the pneumatic door……a glimpse is a non starter.

-The re-enactments were fraudulent from a timing perspective.

-The door itself is a massive obstacle as well, its sound, the movement none of which was recorded by Truly nor Baker. On these points the 2^nd floor lunchroom encounter was a non starter.

-Baker’s first statement……….

-Marvin Johnson’s fairy tales…………

-Will Fritz’s amateurism even a month later……..

Do I need to go on?

2) the Sept. 23rd affidavit shows Baker's continuing confusion with the TSBD floor layout, and cannot be construed as supportive of a hoax, and no answer is given.

This is an opinion by you, there is no evidence to support this, the fact that the FBI is putting an affidavit together the day before the WR is presented (so it has been printed already!!!) shows the FBI is bricking it….in American English that means they are scared and are covering their rears, no further explanation necessary.

3) the 1964 filmed interview shows Baker as a modest man with integrity. (This is your opinion) his fellow officers called him "MommaSon" and referred to him as "dopey". Yet Greg wants to paint him as a coverup monster, more clever than any professional actors of the day, telling a whopper about the lunchroom with a complete deadpan delivery.

I don’t know if Greg has said that, but my take is, he wasn’t too bright and he did exactly what he was told, only for him to slip up badly during his WC testimony and above all in the book First Day Evidence, released in 1993 Baker says: "Shortly after I entered the building I confronted Oswald. The man who identified himself as the superintendent said Oswald was all right, that he was employed there. We left

Oswald there, and the supervisor showed me the way upstairs. I found nothing that seemed out of the ordinary, so I started back to see what had happened. Not knowing for sure what had happened. I was limited in what I could legally do.”

4) the will-call counter bump, a superfluous incident that serves no ostensible purpose in a contrived hoax narrative, is a telltale indicator that other points of correspondence (at the elevator & in the lunchroom) in the Baker/Truly testimonies actually happened. But because this detail did not come out until the testimonies (which were preceded by 2 re-enactments), Greg ignores its pertinence. Neglecting that numerous other details about the elevator area & lunchroom were refreshed with the help of the re-enactments. Neglecting that numerous other details about Baker's time in the Depository weren't elaborated on until the testimonies. Greg would have us discount any detail that doesn't fit into his conception of a hoax-supportive deadline.

You are dreaming and above all fantasising a little too much here. And if I am wrong I expect a serious list to counteract me. I have already pointed out in item 1 how wrong this whole encounter is, a fugezi.

The Stroud document is already a massive bomb, this doc in itself tears your fairy tale a new one. The document already does that but her whole deposiition would just enforce it even more. Now why is it not available.......

5) the Biffle story has not one whit of corroboration, nothing that substantiates it as supporting a hoax, and no answer is given.

Don’t need Biffle, we have Ochus Campbell that with Biffle and the 1993 ‘confession’ of Baker says enough. There was no 2^nd floor lunch room encounter. Jarman's HSCA testimony in relation to what Lovelady said....

You are willing to discount Biffle but prepared to believe the rambling horse manure by Truly and Baker which is Swiss Cheese at best.

6) the Stroud document, coupled with a fact-based understanding of their timelines, places Adams & Styles on the stairs during the same timeframe that Truly & Baker are ascending the stairs from the elevator area speculation based observation by you. And the men had to have been in the lunchroom when the ladies passed. Again no evidence for this, pure speculation by you. Yet Greg mis-reads Truly's vestibule-area testimony so as to maintain that this is impossible and thereby enable the hoax.

Again you could not be more wrong, if only you applied some basic common sense here we would have been done here yonks ago, no really. Adams and Styles were downstairs before those two clowns arrived at the lifts, the stairs are tiny it takes a few seconds to descent, take into consideration Baker and Truly’s pow wow at first (was it outside for a few seconds before they went in….who knows) then trotting towards the lifts, hollering up and pressing both buttons compared to the ladies racing down. High heels or not I have seen plenty of chicks being able to run fast on them perhaps in your neck of the woods this doesn’t happen but I say they can. From a timing perspective I saw Adams and Styles were down before Baker. And then let’s also add Otis Williams who went in before Truly and Baker and up to the 4^th floor and then descended to the 2^nd……….. It’s getting busy on those stairs no?

This all comes from me. I am a ROKCer, but make no mistake I am my own man and at no time did Greg Parker ask me to respond/write to you and address this. I have my own differences of opinion with him so don’t think for a second I work under orders. The reason I respond is the blatant denials you have come up with but in all honesty you have lost this argument already a year or so ago yet, being a CT denier, you cling on to this 2^nd floor lunchroom encounter fantasy until the cows come home, good luck with that, but I debate you once on this and that’s that, there is only that much energy I am willing to waste on deniers.

In all honesty your ‘vendetta’ with Greg is rather childish as well, nor do your ‘stripes’ mean anything in this case especially when you retort to calling us hoaxers, fine I will call you a denier there that’s that.

There was no 2^nd floor lunchroom encounter and there is no vestibule on the 2nd floor. It’s an invention.

ENOUGH!

Edited February 3, 2016 by Bart Kamp

[Thomas Graves]

On 2/2/2016 at 4:27 AM, Bart Kamp said:

Oswald called the vestibule the area between the front door of the TSBD and the double doors leading to the shipping area. And Holmes is the only one, afaik, who mentioned this.

Anyone using this word in conjunction with the tiny area behind the pneumatic door leading to the lunch room and the offices on the 2nd floor is using it wrongly and this is more evidence that Oswald was stopped on the 1st floor..

It is inappropriately used in that context, and if you go to Mary Ferrell than you can see in the docs there that is connected with outer space, as well except in the JFK and RFK murder cases (go figure.....).

Look at Wiki/Google and the chances are extremely slim for you to connect it with a spacial situation as the 2nd floor lunchroom.

And that's that with the 2nd floor lunchroom fugezi.

Mr. BELIN. By the way, where did this policeman stop him when he was coming down the stairs at the Book Depository on the day of the shooting?

Mr. HOLMES. He said it was in the vestibule.

Mr. BELIN. He said he was in the vestibule?

Mr. HOLMES. Or approaching the door to the vestibule. He was just coming, apparently, and I have never been in there myself. Apparently there is two sets of doors, and he had come out to this front part.

Mr. BELIN. Did he state it was on what floor?

Mr. HOLMES. First floor. The front entrance to the first floor.

Barto,

I seriously doubt that Oswald ever used the word "vestibule" to refer to the area inside the front door or to the small, five-sided, three-doored, room-like section of hallway / passageway / corridor next to the second-floor lunchroom. I don't think he used the word, period. But if he did, for all practical purposes it would have worked just fine in referring to the latter.

I think Holmes put the "vegetables" in Oswald's mouth, figuratively speaking.

--Tommy

PS It's interesting that Holmes says, "I have never been in there myself."

One would imagine that Holmes had been inside the front door of the TSBD at some point during the several months between the assassination and his appearance before the Warren Commission. If so, he would have been in your first-floor "vestibule," wouldn't he?

PPS Barto, this looks like an important sentence:

"f you go to Mary Ferrell than you can see in the docs there that is connected with outer space, as well except in the JFK and RFK murder cases [.]"

So please rewrite it so we can understand it.

Thanks!

Edited March 26, 2017 by Thomas Graves

[Guest]

Tom this has already been discussed in the Bill Kelly/Sean Murphy thread.

The word vestibule is very distinctive and it's your word against Holmes. And you are speculating for sure.

In this case I stick with uncle Harry, as dodgy as he may seem.

And that sentence is exactly how it should be,

Google vestibule and it is connected with an outer area, but it is being misused both in the 2nd floor encounter and the RFK case where a small space between the stage and the pantry is being named as such. This area was for staff only.

[Thomas Graves]

Oswald called the vestibule the area between the front door of the TSBD and the double doors leading to the shipping area. And Holmes is the only one, afaik, who mentioned this.

Anyone using this word in conjunction with the tiny area behind the pneumatic door leading to the lunch room and the offices on the 2nd floor is using it wrongly and this is more evidence that Oswald was stopped on the 1st floor..

It is inappropriately used in that context, and if you go to Mary Ferrell than you can see in the docs there that is connected with outer space, as well except in the JFK and RFK murder cases (go figure.....).

Look at Wiki/Google and the chances are extremely slim for you to connect it with a spacial situation as the 2nd floor lunchroom.

And that's that with the 2nd floor lunchroom fugezi.

Mr. BELIN. By the way, where did this policeman stop him when he was coming down the stairs at the Book Depository on the day of the shooting?

Mr. HOLMES. He said it was in the vestibule.

Mr. BELIN. He said he was in the vestibule?

Mr. HOLMES. Or approaching the door to the vestibule. He was just coming, apparently, and I have never been in there myself. Apparently there is two sets of doors, and he had come out to this front part.

Mr. BELIN. Did he state it was on what floor?

Mr. HOLMES. First floor. The front entrance to the first floor.

Barto,

I seriously doubt that Oswald ever used the word "vestibule" to refer to the area inside the front door or to the small, five-sided, three-doored, room-like section of hallway / passageway / corridor next to the second-floor lunchroom. I don't think he used the word, period. But if he did, for all practical purposes it would have worked just fine in referring to the latter.

I think Holmes put the "vegetables" in Oswald's mouth, figuratively speaking.

--Tommy

PS It's interesting that Holmes says, "I have never been in there myself."

One would imagine that Holmes had been inside the front door of the TSBD at some point during the several months between the assassination and his appearance before the Warren Commission. If so, he would have been in your first-floor "vestibule," wouldn't he?

PPS Barto, this looks like an important sentence:

"f you go to Mary Ferrell than you can see in the docs there that is connected with outer space, as well except in the JFK and RFK murder cases [.]"

So please rewrite it so we can understand it.

Thanks!

Barto,

If your interpretation of Holmes' testimony is correct, why then did the bad guys let him give testimony that tended to exonerate Oswald by putting him on the first floor so soon after the assassination?

Why didn't Belin say, "Let's go off the record for a minute, Harry" and set Holmes straight instead of actually eliciting the exonerating statements from him?

Was Harry "out of the loop?"

--Tommy

Edited February 5, 2016 by Thomas Graves

[Guest]

You tell me Tommy................wouldn't be the first muck up by that lot.