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Robert Prudhomme

One Last Thing Before Xmas Eve: 2nd Floor Lunch Room Encounter

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I give up. This guy is WAY out in left field.

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Re: Robert Prudhomme, post #272-

Please note that WCD 897 p. 35 states that Peggy Hawkins "estimated that the President's car was less than fifty feet away from her when he was shot."

Therefore, since President Kennedy was shot when his limousine was in the vicinity of the Stemmons sign, I felt it was appropriate for me to synopsize Hawkins' statement by describing her as "in the vicinity of the Stemmons sign", rather than look up her exact location, since it had been a long day. It was not misleading to describe her that way. And after all, her specific location mattered little, since she said that she hid with her small child behind the retaining wall upon hearing shots. And this action took up too much time for her to have any chance of witnessing Truly & Baker in the front lobby.

I cannot help you with your anger-management problem, but rather than being a one-line cheap shot artist, you might find some way to express it off-line.

If we are to give Holmes any credibility would it be describing the first shots? A number of witnesses place this first shot as the Limo rounds the corner... not well down by the Stemmons sign. interesting question by Belin here about "aid from an optical instrument", no? No other witness was asked this strange question...

Mr. HOLMES. As it came out of Main Street, the President was sitting on the right in the back seat. His wife was on the left. Governor Connally, whom I also recognized, was sitting on the right of the middle seat.

Mr. BELIN. Were you looking with the aid of any optical instrument?

Mr. HOLMES. I had a pair of 7 1/2 x 50 binoculars. They were acknowledging the applause of the crowd and kind of waving, but not standing up. This is a short block.

Mr. BELIN. From Main to Elm?

Mr. HOLMES. To Elm is really not more than a good full block, but the motorcade turned north on Houston and went to Elm and turned left on Elm where it started on a downgrade to what we refer to as a triple underpass. As it turned in front of the School Book Depository, I heard what to me sounded like firecrackers, and it was my recollection that there were three of them.

You go on to write:

Has there not been a solid 8-10 years of postulating that Baker encountered someone on the 4th floor? And what has pondering about that actually led to? (besides the near-immediate realization that Baker's description doesn't fit Dougherty, Jarman, Williams & Norman).

Q- Where did 4th floor man vanish to?

A- Into thin air.

Is this not a complete dead-end? Hopelessly insoluble?

Which makes "4th floor man" useless as a working hypothesis

That you can easily dismiss a signed affidavit is surprising. Baker was specific, clear and concise.

No lunchroom, no door, no 2nd floor... Just a man coming down the stairs. A 5'11" 165lb 30 year old - now where did we hear that description before??

Did Mooney here go up BEFORE Baker and Truly? Doesn't appear so.

Mr. BALL - When you ran across Elm, where did you go?

Mr. MOONEY - Across Elm, up the embankment, which is a high terrace there, across--there is a kind of concrete building there, more or less of a little park.

Jumped over the fence and went into the railroad yards. And, of course, there was other officers over there. Who they were, I don't recall at this time. But Ralph Walters and I were running together. And we jumped into the railroad yards and began to look around there.

And, of course, we didn't see anything there. Of course the other officers had checked into the car there, and didn't find anything, I don't believe, but a Negro porter. Of course there were quite a few spectators milling around behind us. We were trying to clear the area out and get all the civilians out that wasn't officers.

Mr. BALL - Why did you go over to the railroad yard?

Mr. MOONEY - Well, that was--from the echo of the shots, we thought they came from that direction.

Mr. BALL - That would be north and west from where you were standing?

Mr. MOONEY - Yes, sir. To a certain extent--northwest. The way the echo sounded, the cracking of the shot. And we wasn't there many second-- of course I never did look at my watch to see how many seconds it took us to run so many hundred yards there, and into the railroad yard. We were there only a few seconds until we had orders to cover the Texas Depository Building.

Mr. BALL - How did you get those orders?

Mr. MOONEY - They were referred to us by the sheriff, Mr. Bill Decker.

...We shut the back door--there was a back door on a little dock. And then we went in through the docks, through the rear entrance.

Officer Vickery and Webster said, "We will take the staircase there in the corner.

I said, "I will go up the freight elevator." I noticed there was a big elevator there. So I jumped on it. And about that time two women come running and said, "we want to go to the second floor."

I said, "All right, get on, we are going."

Running BACK into the location where his sheriff tells him shots originated and taking two women back to their offices in the same building minutes after the fact is just fine.

Mr. MOONEY - It was a push button affair the best I can remember. got hold of the controls and it worked. We started up and got to the second. I was going to let them off and go on up. And when we got there, the power undoubtedly cut off, because we had no more power on the elevator. So I looked around their office there, just a short second or two, and then I went up the staircase myself. And I met some other officers coming down, plainclothes, and I believe they were deputy sheriffs. They were coming down the staircase. But I kept going up. And how come I get off the sixth floor, I don't know yet. But, anyway, I stopped on six, and didn't even know what floor I was on.

Mr. BALL - You were alone?

Mr. MOONEY - I was alone at that time.

Mr. BALL - Was there any reason for you to go to the sixth floor?

Mr. MOONEY - No, sir. That is what I say. I don't know why. I just stopped on that particular floor. I thought I was pretty close to the top.

Mr. BALL - Were there any other officers on the floor?

Mr. MOONEY - I didn't see any at that time. I assume there had been other officers up there. But I didn't see them. And I begin criss-crossing it, round and round, through boxes, looking at open windows---some of them were open over on the south side.

And I believe they had started laying some flooring up there.

I was checking the fire escapes. And criss-crossing back and forth. And then I decided--I saw there was another floor. And I said I would go up. So I went on up to the seventh floor. I approached Officers Webster and Vickery. They were up there in this little old stairway there that leads up into the attic. So we climbed up in there and looked around right quick. We didn't climb all the way into the attic, almost into it. We said this is too dark, we have got to have floodlights, because we can't see. And so somebody made a statement that they believed floodlights was on the way. And I later found out that probably Officers Boone and Walters had gone after lights. I heard that.

And so we looked around up there for a short time. And then I says I am going back down on six.

At that time, some news reporter, or press, I don't know who he was--he was calming up with a camera. Of course he wasn't taking any pictures. He was just looking, too, I assume. So I went back down ahead of Officers Vickery and Webster. They come in behind me down to the sixth floor.

I went straight across to the southeast corner of the building, and I saw all these high boxes. Of course they were stacked all the way around over there. And I squeezed between two. And the minute I squeezed between these two stacks of boxes, I had to turn myself sideways to get in there that is when I saw the expended shells and the boxes that were stacked up looked to be a rest for the weapon. And, also, there was a slight crease in the top box. Whether the recoil made the crease or it was placed there before the shots were fired, I don't know. But, anyway, there was a very slight crease in the box, where the rifle could have lain--at the same angle that the shots were fired from.

So, at that time, I didn't lay my hands on anything, because I wanted to save every evidence we could for fingerprints. So I leaned out the window, the same window from which the shots were fired, looked down, and I saw Sheriff Bill Decker and Captain Will Fritz standing right on the ground.

Well, so I hollered, or signaled I hollered, I more or less hollered. I whistled a time or two before I got anybody to see me. And yet they was all looking that way, too except the sheriff, they wasn't looking up.

(NOTE: Fritz does not arrive on scene until 12:58, coming back from Parkland)

This next part confirms the impossibility of people taking those back stairs without making a racket and other hearing them... I also find it interesting that neither Baker or Truly comment about these other officers.

Mr. BELIN. Then how do you explain that when you got to the fifth floor, one of the elevators was not there?

Mr. TRULY. I don't know, sir. I think one of my boys was getting stock off the fifth floor on the back side, and probably moved the elevator at the time somewheres between the time we were running upstairs. And I would not have remembered that. I mean I wouldn't have really heard that, with the commotion we were making running up the enclosed stairwell.

Mr. BELIN. Did you see anyone on the fifth floor?

Mr. TRULY. Yes. When coming down I am sure I saw Jack Dougherty getting some books off the fifth floor.

Now, this is so dim in my mind that I could be making a mistake.

But I believe that he was getting some stock, that he had already gone back to work, and that he was getting some stock off the fifth floor.

Even more confusing is who are the "plainclothesmen" Mooney passes as they are coming down from above the 2nd floor... and when did THEY get up there prior to Mooney?

This is not Sawyer and his DPD cops who entered and went to the 4th floor at 12:37 or so...

Such convolutions have not, and cannot, produce sustainable results. After 10+ years, a viable hypothesis should produce at least one lasting fruit- one solid deduction.

Aint gonna learn what we dont wanna know Richard....

Men are seen, in plainclothes, on the 6th floor as early as 12:15 by a number of witnesses... more than one man and in more than one corner of the building.

15 minutes later after shots are supposedly fired from that area a cop and a sheriff's dept policeman run into people coming down the stairs - none of whom have ever been identified and that for some reason is perfectly acceptable to you as a conclusion despite the obvious change in Baker's 11/22 story

Webster and Vickery arrive with Mooney and take the back stairs while he takes an elevator. Mooney specifically mentions these men, repeatedly yet does not ID them as the men coming down the stairs as he is going up. Neither Baker or Truly mention others in the building

If you allowed yourself to theorize without constraint you might conclude the man REID sees in a T shirt with a coke is not the man Baker and Truly claim had on a brown overshirt and no coke

Mrs. REID. Well, I kept walking and I looked up and Oswald was coming in the back door of the office. I met him by the time I passed my desk several feet and I told him, I said, "Oh, the President has been shot, but maybe they didn't hit him."

He mumbled something to me, I kept walking, he did, too. I didn't pay any attention to what he said because I had no thoughts of anything of him having any connection with it at all because he was very calm. He had gotten a coke and was holding it in his hands and I guess the reason it impressed me seeing him in there I thought it was a little strange that one of -the warehouse boys would be up in the office at the time, not that he had done anything wrong. The only time I had seen him in the office was to come and get change and he already had his coke in his hand so he didn't come for change and I dismissed him. I didn't think anything else.

Mr. BELIN. Do you remember what clothes he had on when you saw him?

Mrs. REID. What he was wearing, he had on a white T-shirt and some kind of wash trousers. What color I couldn't tell you.

Mr. BELIN. I am going to hand you what has been marked Commission Exhibit, first 157 and then 158, and I will ask you if either or both look like they might have been the trousers that you saw him wear or can you tell?

Mrs. REID. I just couldn't be positive about that. I would rather not say, because I just cannot.

Mr. BELIN. Do you remember whether he had any shirt or jacket on over his T-shirt?

Mrs. REID. He did not. He did not have any jacket on.

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For some reason I am unable to post an image larger than 3 kb. But I had a crop ready from Don Roberdeau's Dealey Plaza map, which shows Peggy Hawkin's location in blue type. My apologies for any imprecise language in describing her whereabouts. She is on the sidewalk about 100 feet up from the Stemmons sign, in front of the retaining wall, which she described as "in front of the TSBD building". And she said that she stayed behind there with her small child until she realized there would be no more shots.

And then she "walked back to the front of the TSBD Building." Hawkins and her small child have not been located in the Couch film. We can see from Roberdeau's map, or any map, that as soon as she leaves the retaining wall area to walk onto the Elm St. Extension she is at the front of the Depository.

"She said that a motorcycle police officer was in front of the building at this time..." We don't see Hawkins & child among any spectators near the front steps. Thus, she saw Baker while she was still walking along the Elm St. Extension. And Baker, of course, was filmed sprinting for the steps.

...and that she heard over his radio some remarks about the railroad yards near the building... Baker was double-timing it and had dismounted quickly. Hawkins heard this radio broadcast after he had left his motorcycle.

...HAWKINS said that she then re-entered the TSBD Building by the front door... And Baker was long gone by the time that Hawkins and her small child walked up the front steps and into the lobby.

********************

And to return to when the subject of Peggy Hawkins got brought up, I had mentioned that While inside the front lobby, Baker asked Truly where the stairs were (III pp. 221, 249)

And Bart objected that There is possible evidence to refute this not just from Peggy Hawkins but Truly's statement that they saw no one there.

It had been a 10-hour day responding to Bart's post. I had never heard of Peggy Hawkins before, and was provided no reference. Fortunately I located her FBI interview after about 15 minutes of work. And the frustration of added work contributed to my lackadaisical description of Hawkins being "in the vicinity of the Stemmons sign". And this vague description still doesn't matter. Because my point is still correct that since Hawkins went behind the retaining wall, that action took up too much time for her to have any chance of witnessing Truly & Baker in the front lobby.

Which refutes Bart's objection. Which means that this point of correspondence still holds true, as regards the T & B testimonies. And that is one of 13 points of correspondence, as regards their testimonies about the elevator & the lunchroom.

And those who believe the hoax hypothesis still have not offered a defensible explanation as to why the will-call counter bump, which was superfluous to the main line of action, would be added into a confabulated story.

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David,

Mooney searched the railyard area until orders were relayed, through another deputy, that Sheriff Decker wanted the TSBD covered.

(III p. 283) MOONEY: Mr. Webster and Mr. Vickery [billy Joe Victory] were there with me at the time that we received these orders from another deputy.

Decker had been in the lead car on its way to Parkland and made no radio transmission after his initial broadcast (XXIII p. 913 ...move all available men out of my office into the railyard area...). Decker did not broadcast anything after overhearing 12:34 and 12:35 reports that shots had been fired from the building. The lead car arrived at Parkland at 12:37.

There is no record of Decker making any broadcasts at this time. It is likely that he went inside and phoned his office, and that one of his deputies then ran over to the railyard area. The point being that Mooney did not enter the Depository any sooner than 12:39.

And the plainclothesmen he ran into, the "deputy sheriffs" he didn't recognize, were ATF (i.e. A & TT) agents- the same guys that Victoria Adams ran into when she tried to use the west freight elevator. This is explained in Inside Job p. 41 at www.jfkinsidejob.com

********************

Mrs. Reid was probably mistaken about Oswald's clothing- she may have simply blanked out on his untucked brown shirt, or Oswald may have taken it off.

Ambiguities must be interpreted through the lens of the lunchroom incident's reality- because the hoax-interpretation utterly fails to account for any of the aggregate of lunchroom-related evidence listed in post #131 and again in post #281.

Try one if you like- why did Baker cross out "or third floor" in his Sept. 23rd affidavit? How is this consistent with a hoax having occurred?

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For some reason I am unable to post an image larger than 3 kb. But I had a crop ready from Don Roberdeau's Dealey Plaza map, which shows Peggy Hawkin's location in blue type. My apologies for any imprecise language in describing her whereabouts. She is on the sidewalk about 100 feet up from the Stemmons sign, in front of the retaining wall, which she described as "in front of the TSBD building". And she said that she stayed behind there with her small child until she realized there would be no more shots.

And then she "walked back to the front of the TSBD Building." Hawkins and her small child have not been located in the Couch film. We can see from Roberdeau's map, or any map, that as soon as she leaves the retaining wall area to walk onto the Elm St. Extension she is at the front of the Depository.

"She said that a motorcycle police officer was in front of the building at this time..." We don't see Hawkins & child among any spectators near the front steps. Thus, she saw Baker while she was still walking along the Elm St. Extension. And Baker, of course, was filmed sprinting for the steps.

...and that she heard over his radio some remarks about the railroad yards near the building... Baker was double-timing it and had dismounted quickly. Hawkins heard this radio broadcast after he had left his motorcycle.

...HAWKINS said that she then re-entered the TSBD Building by the front door... And Baker was long gone by the time that Hawkins and her small child walked up the front steps and into the lobby.

********************

And to return to when the subject of Peggy Hawkins got brought up, I had mentioned that While inside the front lobby, Baker asked Truly where the stairs were (III pp. 221, 249)

And Bart objected that There is possible evidence to refute this not just from Peggy Hawkins but Truly's statement that they saw no one there.

It had been a 10-hour day responding to Bart's post. I had never heard of Peggy Hawkins before, and was provided no reference. Fortunately I located her FBI interview after about 15 minutes of work. And the frustration of added work contributed to my lackadaisical description of Hawkins being "in the vicinity of the Stemmons sign". And this vague description still doesn't matter. Because my point is still correct that since Hawkins went behind the retaining wall, that action took up too much time for her to have any chance of witnessing Truly & Baker in the front lobby.

Which refutes Bart's objection. Which means that this point of correspondence still holds true, as regards the T & B testimonies. And that is one of 13 points of correspondence, as regards their testimonies about the elevator & the lunchroom.

And those who believe the hoax hypothesis still have not offered a defensible explanation as to why the will-call counter bump, which was superfluous to the main line of action, would be added into a confabulated story.

I have never seen anyone write so much, and say so little, and offer up nothing to back up his perspective.

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For some reason I am unable to post an image larger than 3 kb. But I had a crop ready from Don Roberdeau's Dealey Plaza map, which shows Peggy Hawkin's location in blue type. My apologies for any imprecise language in describing her whereabouts. She is on the sidewalk about 100 feet up from the Stemmons sign, in front of the retaining wall, which she described as "in front of the TSBD building". And she said that she stayed behind there with her small child until she realized there would be no more shots.

And then she "walked back to the front of the TSBD Building." Hawkins and her small child have not been located in the Couch film. We can see from Roberdeau's map, or any map, that as soon as she leaves the retaining wall area to walk onto the Elm St. Extension she is at the front of the Depository.

"She said that a motorcycle police officer was in front of the building at this time..." We don't see Hawkins & child among any spectators near the front steps. Thus, she saw Baker while she was still walking along the Elm St. Extension. And Baker, of course, was filmed sprinting for the steps.

...and that she heard over his radio some remarks about the railroad yards near the building... Baker was double-timing it and had dismounted quickly. Hawkins heard this radio broadcast after he had left his motorcycle.

...HAWKINS said that she then re-entered the TSBD Building by the front door... And Baker was long gone by the time that Hawkins and her small child walked up the front steps and into the lobby.

********************

And to return to when the subject of Peggy Hawkins got brought up, I had mentioned that While inside the front lobby, Baker asked Truly where the stairs were (III pp. 221, 249)

And Bart objected that There is possible evidence to refute this not just from Peggy Hawkins but Truly's statement that they saw no one there.

It had been a 10-hour day responding to Bart's post. I had never heard of Peggy Hawkins before, and was provided no reference. Fortunately I located her FBI interview after about 15 minutes of work. And the frustration of added work contributed to my lackadaisical description of Hawkins being "in the vicinity of the Stemmons sign". And this vague description still doesn't matter. Because my point is still correct that since Hawkins went behind the retaining wall, that action took up too much time for her to have any chance of witnessing Truly & Baker in the front lobby.

Which refutes Bart's objection. Which means that this point of correspondence still holds true, as regards the T & B testimonies. And that is one of 13 points of correspondence, as regards their testimonies about the elevator & the lunchroom.

And those who believe the hoax hypothesis still have not offered a defensible explanation as to why the will-call counter bump, which was superfluous to the main line of action, would be added into a confabulated story.

I have never seen anyone write so much, and say so little, and offer up nothing to back up his perspective.

Ow dear Bob, you captured this so eloquently.

Well done!

Rcihard,

I have been away for a week and I am going to need some time but posts 242 and later will get a rebuttal.

Edited by Bart Kamp

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Bart,

I welcome the challenge. If you are able, please avoid using colored fonts. They do not seem to print, and I get bug-eyed staring too long at the computer screen. Maybe grey will work for you. Thanks.

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Richard

I have re-read everything regarding your comments to my statements, some of which are wishful thinking or complete speculation.

But I refuse to waste time on your opinionated assessments, since they are rather weak and above all not supported by much evidence, a pattern is indeed emerging.

What I do object to is the blatant falsehood of you claiming that the articles in the DMN and the NYHT are identical. You have quoted the NYHT twice while thinking it was also in the DMN, which is complete rubbish.

I suggest you re-read both articles again.

I also showed in the other post that Truly lied in his WC testimony, after he did two interviews claiming Baker went ahead of him (another point you refuted and which was already brought up in the old ROKC forum thread on the 2nd floor lunchroom encounter where your lies were already exposed by Lee Farley and others.

If I look at how you defend Doyle and MacRae and also fail to comprehend that the 2nd floor lunchroom encounter was a fugezi and defend this with such blatant denial then I will have to say that there is not much respect left for the quality of your research. Are you a closet LNer, I don't care if you are but then at least admit it!

When it comes to trolling Doyle has been relegated to a lower standing, Little League since he is acting like a baby in a big man's uniform, so all my attention will now be focused on you. So in between your painting and decorating jobs you do I suggest you tool up as you will need all the help you can get!

You have a nice day!

Edited by Bart Kamp

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And here is the article in the London EVENING Free Press for 11/23/1963, and Ed Hicks said as Oswald was leaving the bldg he was stopped and questioned. How did they know it was Oswald and he worked there? Because Roy Truly stepped up and vouched for Lee. This could not be later when Truly and Baker are on the roof. This was as Baker enters

Hicks_zps1ayenqii.png

The Sydney Morning Herald (11/23/63) reported that “Oswald walked through the door of the warehouse and was stopped by a policeman. Oswald told the policeman that ‘I work here’, and when another employee confirmed that he did, the policeman let Oswald walk away.”

Detective Ed Hicks told the London Free Press (11/23/63) that "Oswald apparently came out the front door of the red bricked warehouse. A policeman asked him where he was going. He said he wanted to see what the excitement was all about.”
Page 57 Prayer Man, Stan Dane.
Hicks was not at the interrogation and would not know of Oswald's claim.

What he reported meshes nicely with what Oswald told Holmes.

Postal Inspector Harry Holmes sat in on the November 24 interrogation, took notes, and testified that Oswald had stated that “A police officer stopped me just before I got to the front door, and started to ask me some questions, and my superintendent of the place stepped up and told the officers that I am one of the employees…” (VII p. 302)

Mundane explanation to follow I'm sure.
Now one might be thinking these mundane explanations are excuses and equal apologies.
And if they are apologies then that makes one an apologist.
Add to the equation that these are really Warren Commission explanations, mundane or not, then that would make one an Warren Commission apologist. The maths are straightforward.

Cheers~Ed

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Thanks to Patrick Lewis @ London Room, London Public Library for aiding in the research of this article.
Cheers! Ed

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And here is the article in the London EVENING Free Press for 11/23/1963, and Ed Hicks said as Oswald was leaving the bldg he was stopped and questioned. How did they know it was Oswald and he worked there? Because Roy Truly stepped up and vouched for Lee. This could not be later when Truly and Baker are on the roof. This was as Baker enters

Hicks_zps1ayenqii.png

The Sydney Morning Herald (11/23/63) reported that “Oswald walked through the door of the warehouse and was stopped by a policeman. Oswald told the policeman that ‘I work here’, and when another employee confirmed that he did, the policeman let Oswald walk away.”

Detective Ed Hicks told the London Free Press (11/23/63) that "Oswald apparently came out the front door of the red bricked warehouse. A policeman asked him where he was going. He said he wanted to see what the excitement was all about.”

Page 57 Prayer Man, Stan Dane.

Hicks was not at the interrogation and would not know of Oswald's claim.

What he reported meshes nicely with what Oswald told Holmes.

Postal Inspector Harry Holmes sat in on the November 24 interrogation, took notes, and testified that Oswald had stated that “A police officer stopped me just before I got to the front door, and started to ask me some questions, and my superintendent of the place stepped up and told the officers that I am one of the employees…” (VII p. 302)

Mundane explanation to follow I'm sure.

Now one might be thinking these mundane explanations are excuses and equal apologies.

And if they are apologies then that makes one an apologist.

Add to the equation that these are really Warren Commission explanations, mundane or not, then that would make one an Warren Commission apologist. The maths are straightforward.

Cheers~Ed

When I first read the above post in February, the impression I had was that Oswald had had two encounters with policemen. First, the one with Baker (which I believed took place on the first floor, and may have been a "sighting" of Oswald rather than an "encounter"). Second, the encounter described in the above post. (However, due to other evidence that was being posted, I thought that this cop told Oswald to not leave till he was freed by the police... a minor difference.)

Then today, when I read the post for a second time -- with a fresh mind with regard to this topic -- I got a way different impression. And that is that Oswald had had only one encounter with a cop, and that is the one described above. (Maybe Baker was this cop. Or maybe Baker wasn't, and he was instructed to borrow the story and make it a part of the pretend 2nd floor encounter.)

Does anybody else see it this way... a one-cop encounter at the entrance? Was it with Baker or another cop? Or does this idea conflict with other testimony? (Not counting the 2nd floor encounter testimony, which I consider to be nonsense.)

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Ed:

That is a good catch and just about seals the deal on the lying, racist police informant, Truly.

Since I don't want to hijack the Mark Lane thread, can you please answer Davey's query as to how to explain Reid's testimony about Oswald being on the second floor?

I mean the stuff about what Oswald said in the FBI's notes or Fritz's notes I don't worry about. I mean, does anyone really believe that the DPD could not get a tape recorder if they wanted to? I don't. They didn't want one there. But there is some info that Fritz secretly taped the interrogations. And he never revealed them. Wonder why?

But what about Reid?

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Ed:

That is a good catch and just about seals the deal on the lying, racist police informant, Truly.

Since I don't want to hijack the Mark Lane thread, can you please answer Davey's query as to how to explain Reid's testimony about Oswald being on the second floor?

I mean the stuff about what Oswald said in the FBI's notes or Fritz's notes I don't worry about. I mean, does anyone really believe that the DPD could not get a tape recorder if they wanted to? I don't. They didn't want one there. But there is some info that Fritz secretly taped the interrogations. And he never revealed them. Wonder why?

But what about Reid?

Why can't you answer it yourself, Jimmy?

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Replay of previous post in the other thread:

Jim,

You expect way too much spot-on accuracy from the early reports. Nothing in those newspaper articles debunks the second-floor encounter. Your utter desperation to make Oswald blameless is blatantly obvious.

OSWALD HIMSELF confirmed that the encounter with Officer Baker took place on the SECOND floor, not the fourth or any other floor. Oswald told Fritz it was the "second floor". That's in Fritz' notes and Fritz' written report too (WR; p.600).

Was Oswald lying too? Or do you want to pretend Fritz was the person doing the lying on page 600 of the WCR?

More:
http://jfk-archives.blogspot.com/2015/07/jfk-assassination-arguments-part-973.html

"Now, granted, Mr. Oswald was one heck of a [L-word]. No doubt about that. He practically turned into a lying machine after he was arrested in the Texas Theater on November 22nd. But in this instance we're discussing here, when he was answering Captain Fritz' question about where he was located when the policeman encountered him within the Depository building, he was not lying. And we can know for an absolute fact he was not lying in this instance due to the fact that his "second floor" version of the event is corroborated by TWO other people---Marrion Baker and Roy Truly. It's kind of a funny switch here, isn't it? The LNer (DVP) is supporting and believing something uttered by Oswald; and the CTer (DiEugenio) has no choice but to think Oswald was lying about this incident [or that Fritz was lying--in both his notes and his typewritten report]." -- DVP; July 2015

~~~~~~~~~~~

In addition, Jim....

What do you do with Mrs. Robert Reid's testimony? She said she saw Oswald, holding a Coke, walking through the offices on the second floor within just a couple of minutes of the assassination.

Reid's testimony is perfectly consistent with the Baker-Truly-LHO encounter occurring on the second floor, having occurred just seconds before Reid saw Oswald in the second-floor office area. It fits to a tee.

Was Mrs. Reid lying to frame Oswald too, Jim?

Edited by David Von Pein

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Mrs. Reid, by the way, participated in a reconstruction of her post-assassination movements for the Warren Commission. Here is her testimony concerning that re-creation/re-enactment, beginning at 3 H 274 (emphasis in bold is DVP's):


Mr. DULLES. How long after the third shot did you run into the building?

Mr. BELIN. Mr. Dulles, we did a reconstruction on that time sequence on Friday and I am going to come to that as soon as I get the route first.

Mr. DULLES. Right.

Mr. BELIN. You went into the building in the main lobby?

Mrs. REID. Yes; I did.

Mr. BELIN. Did you take the elevator or the stairs?

Mrs. REID. No; I went up the stairs.

Mr. BELIN. Was this the front stairs or the back stairs?

Mrs. REID. No; the front stairs.

Mr. BELIN. All right. You went up through the stairs and then what did you do?

Mrs. REID. I went into the office.

Mr. BELIN. You went into your office?

Mrs. REID. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. And then what did you do?

Mrs. REID. Well, I kept walking and I looked up and Oswald was coming in the back door of the office. I met him by the time I passed my desk several feet and I told him, I said, "Oh, the President has been shot, but maybe they didn't hit him." He mumbled something to me, I kept walking, he did, too. I didn't pay any attention to what he said because I had no thoughts of anything of him having any connection with it at all because he was very calm. He had gotten a coke and was holding it in his hands and I guess the reason it impressed me seeing him in there, I thought it was a little strange that one of the warehouse boys would be up in the office at the time, not that he had done anything wrong. The only time I had seen him in the office was to come and get change and he already had his coke in his hand, so he didn't come for change and I dismissed him. I didn't think anything else.

Mr. BELIN. When you saw him, I believe you said you first saw him when he was coming through the door?

Mrs. REID. Yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. Turning to Exhibit 497, what doorway was it where you first saw him?

Mrs. REID. Right here.

Mr. BELIN. You are pointing to the doorway between numbers 27 and 28?

Mrs. REID. That is right.

Mr. BELIN. On Exhibit 497?

Mrs. REID. That is right.

Mr. BELIN. Where were you when you saw him in that doorway?

Mrs. REID. I was coming right through here.

Mr. BELIN. You are pointing to what number there?

Mrs. REID. Well, it is 29.

Mr. BELIN. 29. And then about where were you when you actually passed him or had this exchange?

Mrs. REID. Right along here. I passed my desk.

Mr. BELIN. Why don't you put on Exhibit 496 [belin really means 497 here, not 496] an "X" as to where you were when you thought you passed him.

Mrs. REID. Here.

Mr. BELIN. I wonder if you would put the initial "R" which we will put for Mrs. Reid.

Mrs. REID. All right.

Mr. BELIN. By the "X" and that is where you were when you passed him. On March 20, you and I met for the first time, didn't we, Mrs. Reid?

Mrs. REID. That is right.

Mr. BELIN. We sat down and I asked you to tell me what happened and you related the story. Did I keep on questioning you or did you tell me what happened?

Mrs. REID. Well, I more or less told you what had happened.

Mr. BELIN. All right. Then we went out on the street, did we not, in front of the building, with a stopwatch, do you remember that?

Mrs. REID. Yes; I surely do. It was kind of cool.

Mr. BELIN. It was kind of cool wasn't it, and a little bit windy.

Mrs. REID. Yes; it was; yes.

Mr. BELIN. And when in Dallas, we started the stopwatch from the time that the last shot was fired, is that correct?

Mrs. REID. That is right.

Mr. BELIN. And then you went through your actions, what you saw, your conversations that you had, and your actions in going back into the building and up to the point that you saw Lee Harvey Oswald?

Mrs. REID. That is right.

Mr. BELIN. Do you remember how long by the stopwatch it took you?

Mrs. REID. Approximately 2 minutes.

Mr. DULLES. I didn't hear you.

Mrs. REID. Two minutes.

Mr. BELIN. From the time of the last shot, the time you and Oswald crossed?

Mrs. REID. Yes; I believe that is the way we timed it.

Mr. BELIN. When you--you saw me start the stopwatch and you saw me stop it there, right?

Mrs. REID. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. When you met in the lunchroom--

Mrs. REID. I didn't meet him in the lunchroom.

Mr. BELIN. Pardon me, when you met in the office, which direction were you going, looking toward Exhibit 497, as you look on it, which direction were you going--toward the left or right?

Mrs. REID. You mean as I came in the office? I turned in and turned to my left.

Mr. BELIN. That would be heading in a westerly direction, is that right?

Mrs. REID. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. What direction was Oswald walking?

Mrs. REID. He was going east.

Mr. BELIN. Did you see him actually walk through or coming through the door there?

Mrs. REID. He had just gotten to the door, was stepping in as I glanced up.

Mr. BELIN. He was stepping in as you glanced up?

Mrs. REID. Yes.

[...]

Mr. BELIN. How did you know the person you saw was Lee Harvey Oswald on the second floor?

Mrs. REID. Because it looked just like him.

Mr. BELIN. You mean the picture with the name Lee Harvey Oswald?

Mrs. REID. Oh, yes.

Mr. BELIN. But you had seen him in the building?

Mrs. REID. Other than that day, sure.

Mr. BELIN. Do you remember what clothes he had on when you saw him?

Mrs. REID. What he was wearing, he had on a white T-shirt and some kind of wash trousers. What color I couldn't tell you.

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