The Real Ruth and Michael Paine

[James DiEugenio]

Greg:

Your other comment about Krystinik's memory of Michael, I should add, that is really interesting also.

A guy who had access to that kind of a trust fund, and he is worried about his bank account balance.

BTW, isn't Tommy a riot?

All of this great info here, and all he cares to do is take a shot at me.

Sandy was right about him.

When will your new volume be coming out?

PS And no I did not forget about the possible Ekdahl, Hyde relationship. That would be a killer. It would seem to bolster the 1957 Navy document I sued in the first edition of Destiny Betrayed.

Edited January 1, 2016 by James DiEugenio

[Paul Trejo]

I don't endorse personal attacks.

I do believe Michael and Ruth Paine are liars. I don't know why they lie.

Paul Trejo is largely correct as to purely factual matters in his posts #17 and #18, IMO.

Furthermore, I disagree that Marina's husband was an intelligence agent...

Thanks, Jon, I appreciate the positive feedback.

However, as for your charge that Michael and Ruth Paine are liars, please engage me in that dialogue, because that is the topic of this thread, and I'm really interested.

Let's separate them. After all, they were separated during 1963. They hardly saw each other, except on weekends when Michael would pick up his mail and have dinner with his children.

I've read every word of their WC testimony, have you? I cannot find one single lie in all of Ruth Paine's testimony. I've looked. I've tried. I used to suspect her bitterly. But after reading all of her eight appearances before the WC attorneys, and all the 5 thousand plus questions they asked her -- I can't find one single lie.

As for Michael Paine, that's another story. He told the WC he never saw any guns in LHO's possession in 1963. But in 1993 Michael told Dan Rather that he saw LHO's "Backyard Photograph" on April 2nd, 1963, when he went to give LHO and Marina a ride to dinner at Ruth Paine's house.

This was the first time that Michael Paine ever met LHO face to face.

Marina Oswald also gave some burning testimony about Michael Paine, when she said: (1) that LHO and MIchael Paine talked a lot about politics, especially General Walker, IIRC; and (2) that LHO said Michael Paine knew LHO shot at General Walker.

Of course, Michael Paine denied both allegations strongly. He just said that Marina didn't understand much of what she heard LHO saying.

But when Michael Paine told Dan Rather that he had seen LHO's BYP, complete with rifle and pistol -- that made me spin on the man.

If (and only if) Michael Paine lied (because actually, seeing a picture of a gun is not the same as seeing an actual gun -- or even knowing if the picture was faked or not) -- then IT WAS ALWAYS ABOUT GENERAL WALKER. This is the key theme that interests me with regard to the Paines.

Regards,

--Paul Trejo

Edited January 7, 2016 by Paul Trejo

[Ed LeDoux]

Thanks for that Paul....ah Here is something I did on LHO's transportation

Dallas and Irving transportation

October 3, 1963: LHO checks in at the YMCA. Later in the day, he files a claim at the employment office.

October 4, 1963: LHO applies for work at Padgett Printing Co. He makes a favorable impression, but is not hired because of poor references. Later, he telephones Marina and asks for a ride to Ruth Paine's home and is denied. He hitchhikes the 12 miles to Ruth's house. (Yates, Small)

October 7, 1963: Ruth drives LHO to the bus station, and he returns to Dallas to look for work. Later, LHO obtains a room at 621 Marsalis

The CHAIRMAN - Thank you.

Mr. JENNER - How long did he remain in your home on this visit?

Mrs. PAINE - Until Monday morning, the 7th of October, almost noon, in fact, when I took him to an Intercity bus at the Irving bus station.

Mr. JENNER - This is that bus terminal approximately 3 miles from your home?

Mrs. PAINE - That same day I gave him a map to assist him in job hunting.

Mr. JENNER - All right. I would like to get to that. I show you what is in evidence, I don't know whether it is received or not; it is a Commission Exhibit No. 128

Mr. JENNER - Do you know what the busfare is from Dallas to Irving?

Mrs. PAINE - No; I don't.

October 12, 1963: LHO advised his landlady Bledsoe that he was leaving for the weekend, and she stated that she didn't want him to return. LHO went to Ruth's for the weekend. (Has BWF give him a rdie to Irving?)

October 14, 1963: Ruth drives LHO to Dallas, where he later registers as O.H. Lee at a new rooming house on North Beckley. Later, Ruth mentions to a group of neighbors that LHO is having trouble finding work. One of the ladies, Linnie Mae Randle, mentioned a possible opening at the Texas School Book Depository; and when LHO calls the Paine home that evening, Ruth informs him of the opening. (After Ruth called Truly)

October 15, 1963: LHO applies at the TSBD and is hired.

October 16, 1963: LHO begins work at the TSBD. (Goes by bus daily?)

October 18, 1963: LHO receives a ride from Buell Frazier to the Paine home, where a surprise birthday party is waiting for him.

Lee Farley added;

This is one detail where Ruth Paine nearly screwed herself up royally. It is not clear whether he came home this weekend for a "birthday party" because this weekend was the weekend that Marina went into labor.

Mr. JENNER - Do you know how he returned to Dallas that following morning, that is the 22d?

Mrs. PAINE - Probably went with Wesley also.

Mr. JENNER - And he came out the following weekend, did he?

Mrs. PAINE - Yes. That was his birthday.

Mr. JENNER - The 18th of October is his birthday. Did you have a party for him?

Mrs. PAINE - We had a cake; yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER - Was that weekend uneventful?

Mrs. PAINE - Well, Marina was already home.

Mr. JENNER - The baby was now home. She came home very quickly?

Mrs. PAINE - Very quickly, a day and a half. She was home on Tuesday, the 16th, is that right-- skipped a day, the 22d. So that his party was the week before, too. I was wrong then.

October 20, 1963: Marina gives birth to Audrey Marina Rachel Oswald. (As Lee Farley has pointed out there is no mention by Gladys Johnson)

October 23, 1963: LHO attends a right-wing rally where General Walker is a speaker. (How by Bus?)

October 25, 1963: Michael Paine and LHO attend a meeting of the ACLU. (Michael drives him? Where does he drop him after?)

October 29, 1963: FBI agent James Hosty makes inquiries in the Paine's neighborhood regarding LHO. (Mrs. Roberts)

So we have a Hitchhiking LHO and some interesting transportation issues.

CBS Nelson Benton reports, listen at 13:55, that LHO took a bus to his apt, changed, and took a cab to the building.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K4A3cF2-52A&index=4&list=PLPpNRGOLAlsdIARgRhMsH6svPBWWwCGGh

From Hasan Yusuf

Let’s now look at what Ruth had to say. What I find most intriguing is that Ruth; a woman who did practically all she could to help nail Oswald to the wall, told the Warren Commission that she didn’t know anything about Oswald allegedly beating the xxxx out of his wife:

Mr. JENNER - Would you please relate to us your discussions with Marina with respect to her husband Lee Harvey Oswald?

Mrs. PAINE - Well, she wondered if he did, in fact, love her.

Mr. JENNER - What did she say?

Mrs. PAINE - She said she supposed most couples had at some time wondered about this. She wondered herself whether she loved him truly. She talked some of her few months of dating that she had in Minsk, and of living there.

Mr. JENNER - That is before her marriage to Lee Harvey?

Mrs. PAINE - Yes. At some point, and I want to tell you this, whether it is appropriate or whether it happened later in October, I can't be certain, but I think in May she told me that she had written a letter to a previous boyfriend, and that this letter had come back because she had put insufficient postage on it, and Lee had found it at the door coming back through the mail, and had been very angry.

Mr. JENNER - Did she go beyond that?

Mrs. PAINE - She did not. To tell me what was in the letter, you mean?

Mr. JENNER - I am not thinking so much within the letter. Did she go beyond stating that he was merely only angry? Was there any discussion about his having struck her?

Mrs. PAINE - No; none. No; none. She never mentioned to me ever that Lee had struck her.

Mr. JENNER - And during all the visits you ever had with her, all the tete-a-tetes, her living with you on this occasion we now describe as 15 1/2 days, and in the fall, was there any occasion when Marina Oswald related to you any abuse, physical abuse, by her husband, Lee Harvey Oswald, with respect to her?

Mrs. PAINE - There was never any such occasion.

Mr. JENNER - Never any such occasion. And in particular this incident?

Mrs. PAINE - She related this incident, but it did not include anything further than he had been very angry and hurt.

Mr. JENNER - Up to this time, that is, the time she came to you on the 24th, had you ever seen any bruises—

Mrs. PAINE - No; I never saw her—

Mr. JENNER - On her person?

Mrs. PAINE - No; I never saw her bruised.

Mr. JENNER - At no time that you have ever seen her or known her, have you ever seen her bruised?

Mrs. PAINE - At no time.

Mr. JENNER - So that there has been no occasion when you have seen it, or been led to believe, she had been subjected to any physical abuse by her husband?

Mrs. PAINE - That is right.

Am I the only one here who finds it a bit odd that Ruth didn’t claim that Oswald beat his wife? My hypothesis is that Ruth’s separation from Mike on or about September, 1962 was a ruse to get Oswald to live with her. I believe that she and Mike were in cahoots with George Bouhe in this regard. I find it a bit too coincidental that Ruth separated from Mike due to what was described as “unkind, cruel, harsh and tyrannical treatment and conduct” at around the same time that Bouhe said that Marina told him (Bouhe) that Oswald had hit her, and observed bruises on her.

The question is; what exactly were Ruth, Mike and Bouhe up to? I think it had something to do with Oswald’s employment at Jaggars-Chiles-Stovall. According to the official story, Oswald got the job there through the Texas employment commission. Marina told the Warren Commission that Bouhe had a hand in getting Oswald the job there:

The official story is that Oswald first met Ruth Paine on February 22, 1963 at the home of Everett Glover, a chemist working for the Socony Mobil Oil Company in Dallas. But was he actually living with the bitch before that time? The following is from an interview with Robert Stovall, the President of Jaggars-Chiles-Stovall:

“[stovall] said that when Oswald came to work he gave an address in Irving which he later changed to a post office Box number presumably in Dallas.”

http://www.maryferrell.org/mffweb/archive/viewer/showDoc.do?mode=searchResult&absPageId=329938

On or about September 1962, Ruth Paine separated from Michael Paine; allegedly due to what was described as “unkind, cruel, harsh and tyrannical treatment and conduct” from Mikey. http://www.maryferrell.org/mffweb/archive/viewer/showDoc.do?docId=11246&relPageId=35

What I find interesting is that George Bouhe (a prominent member of the Dallas/Fort worth “white” Russian community) told the Warren Commission that Marina told him (Bouhe) that Oswald had hit her; and that this was within the first two weeks of September, 1962:

And this i find MOST curious

Mr. JENNER - Now the same question with respect to clothing for himself, for Marina, and for June and Rachel. You have told us about the one instance in which he gave Marina some money to buy shoes for June, which was----

Mrs. PAINE - No, the shoes were for Marina.

Mr. JENNER - Were for Marina, and this had occurred during the week of the assassination?

Mrs. PAINE - Our plan was to go out on Friday afternoon, the 22d of November, to buy these shoes. Just when he gave her the money, I am not certain. And these, of course, were not bought. I can think of nothing that was bought. Yes, one thing. When she was with me in the spring, late April to the 9th of May, she had some money from Lee for her own expenses, and she used a portion of this, I would think a rather large portion, buying a pair of maternity shorts, or they may have been Bermuda shorts, longer than that, slacks, even, possibly, but I know they cost nearly $5, and this was quite a large expenditure and quite a thrill. These were bought in Irving.

No shoes for Marina on the day of the assassination, but a shoe salesman yes's Oswald.

[Greg Parker]

Greg:

Your other comment about Krystinik's memory of Michael, I should add, that is really interesting also.

A guy who had access to that kind of a trust fund, and he is worried about his bank account balance.

BTW, isn't Tommy a riot?

All of this great info here, and all he cares to do is take a shot at me.

Sandy was right about him.

When will your new volume be coming out?

PS And no I did not forget about the possible Ekdahl, Hyde relationship. That would be a killer. It would seem to bolster the 1957 Navy document I sued in the first edition of Destiny Betrayed.

You also have Ruth writing a letter to Marina saying she and Michael had discussed paying Marina $10.00 a week when she came to stay because they thought they could claim it on tax. I mean, how cheap can you get? They didn't end up doing it because they realized they COULDN'T claim for her.

Tommy tries too hard sometimes to present himself as an "independent" member here, posting without fear or favor. I think that point can be made in ways other than the way he seems to favor.

Can't really say for the next volume. As with the first two, 80 to 90% of the research is already done - but I have a tendency to re-research everything to make sure I'm happy with it - and to see if can add any more to it. From experience, what tends to happen is that on a second go round, I'll spot even more leads to chase down.

Ekdahl fwiw, worked for an electrics research company...

[Paul Trejo]

Thanks for that Paul....ah Here is something I did on LHO's transportation

Dallas and Irving transportation

October 3, 1963: LHO checks in at the YMCA. Later in the day, he files a claim at the employment office.

October 4, 1963: LHO applies for work at Padgett Printing Co. He makes a favorable impression, but is not hired because of poor references. Later, he telephones Marina and asks for a ride to Ruth Paine's home and is denied. He hitchhikes the 12 miles to Ruth's house. (Yates, Small)

October 7, 1963: Ruth drives LHO to the bus station, and he returns to Dallas to look for work. Later, LHO obtains a room at 621 Marsalis

The CHAIRMAN - Thank you.

Mr. JENNER - How long did he remain in your home on this visit?

Mrs. PAINE - Until Monday morning, the 7th of October, almost noon, in fact, when I took him to an Intercity bus at the Irving bus station.

Mr. JENNER - This is that bus terminal approximately 3 miles from your home?

Mrs. PAINE - That same day I gave him a map to assist him in job hunting.

Mr. JENNER - All right. I would like to get to that. I show you what is in evidence, I don't know whether it is received or not; it is a Commission Exhibit No. 128

Mr. JENNER - Do you know what the busfare is from Dallas to Irving?

Mrs. PAINE - No; I don't.

October 12, 1963: LHO advised his landlady Bledsoe that he was leaving for the weekend, and she stated that she didn't want him to return. LHO went to Ruth's for the weekend. (Has BWF give him a rdie to Irving?)

October 14, 1963: Ruth drives LHO to Dallas, where he later registers as O.H. Lee at a new rooming house on North Beckley. Later, Ruth mentions to a group of neighbors that LHO is having trouble finding work. One of the ladies, Linnie Mae Randle, mentioned a possible opening at the Texas School Book Depository; and when LHO calls the Paine home that evening, Ruth informs him of the opening. (After Ruth called Truly)

October 15, 1963: LHO applies at the TSBD and is hired.

October 16, 1963: LHO begins work at the TSBD. (Goes by bus daily?)

October 18, 1963: LHO receives a ride from Buell Frazier to the Paine home, where a surprise birthday party is waiting for him.

Lee Farley added;

This is one detail where Ruth Paine nearly screwed herself up royally. It is not clear whether he came home this weekend for a "birthday party" because this weekend was the weekend that Marina went into labor.

Mr. JENNER - Do you know how he returned to Dallas that following morning, that is the 22d?

Mrs. PAINE - Probably went with Wesley also.

Mr. JENNER - And he came out the following weekend, did he?

Mrs. PAINE - Yes. That was his birthday.

Mr. JENNER - The 18th of October is his birthday. Did you have a party for him?

Mrs. PAINE - We had a cake; yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER - Was that weekend uneventful?

Mrs. PAINE - Well, Marina was already home.

Mr. JENNER - The baby was now home. She came home very quickly?

Mrs. PAINE - Very quickly, a day and a half. She was home on Tuesday, the 16th, is that right-- skipped a day, the 22d. So that his party was the week before, too. I was wrong then.

October 20, 1963: Marina gives birth to Audrey Marina Rachel Oswald. (As Lee Farley has pointed out there is no mention by Gladys Johnson)

October 23, 1963: LHO attends a right-wing rally where General Walker is a speaker. (How by Bus?)

October 25, 1963: Michael Paine and LHO attend a meeting of the ACLU. (Michael drives him? Where does he drop him after?)

October 29, 1963: FBI agent James Hosty makes inquiries in the Paine's neighborhood regarding LHO. (Mrs. Roberts)

So we have a Hitchhiking LHO and some interesting transportation issues.

CBS Nelson Benton reports, listen at 13:55, that LHO took a bus to his apt, changed, and took a cab to the building.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K4A3cF2-52A&index=4&list=PLPpNRGOLAlsdIARgRhMsH6svPBWWwCGGh

From Hasan Yusuf

Let’s now look at what Ruth had to say. What I find most intriguing is that Ruth; a woman who did practically all she could to help nail Oswald to the wall, told the Warren Commission that she didn’t know anything about Oswald allegedly beating the xxxx out of his wife:

Mr. JENNER - Would you please relate to us your discussions with Marina with respect to her husband Lee Harvey Oswald?

Mrs. PAINE - Well, she wondered if he did, in fact, love her.

Mr. JENNER - What did she say?

Mrs. PAINE - She said she supposed most couples had at some time wondered about this. She wondered herself whether she loved him truly. She talked some of her few months of dating that she had in Minsk, and of living there.

Mr. JENNER - That is before her marriage to Lee Harvey?

Mrs. PAINE - Yes. At some point, and I want to tell you this, whether it is appropriate or whether it happened later in October, I can't be certain, but I think in May she told me that she had written a letter to a previous boyfriend, and that this letter had come back because she had put insufficient postage on it, and Lee had found it at the door coming back through the mail, and had been very angry.

Mr. JENNER - Did she go beyond that?

Mrs. PAINE - She did not. To tell me what was in the letter, you mean?

Mr. JENNER - I am not thinking so much within the letter. Did she go beyond stating that he was merely only angry? Was there any discussion about his having struck her?

Mrs. PAINE - No; none. No; none. She never mentioned to me ever that Lee had struck her.

Mr. JENNER - And during all the visits you ever had with her, all the tete-a-tetes, her living with you on this occasion we now describe as 15 1/2 days, and in the fall, was there any occasion when Marina Oswald related to you any abuse, physical abuse, by her husband, Lee Harvey Oswald, with respect to her?

Mrs. PAINE - There was never any such occasion.

Mr. JENNER - Never any such occasion. And in particular this incident?

Mrs. PAINE - She related this incident, but it did not include anything further than he had been very angry and hurt.

Mr. JENNER - Up to this time, that is, the time she came to you on the 24th, had you ever seen any bruises—

Mrs. PAINE - No; I never saw her—

Mr. JENNER - On her person?

Mrs. PAINE - No; I never saw her bruised.

Mr. JENNER - At no time that you have ever seen her or known her, have you ever seen her bruised?

Mrs. PAINE - At no time.

Mr. JENNER - So that there has been no occasion when you have seen it, or been led to believe, she had been subjected to any physical abuse by her husband?

Mrs. PAINE - That is right.

Am I the only one here who finds it a bit odd that Ruth didn’t claim that Oswald beat his wife? My hypothesis is that Ruth’s separation from Mike on or about September, 1962 was a ruse to get Oswald to live with her. I believe that she and Mike were in cahoots with George Bouhe in this regard. I find it a bit too coincidental that Ruth separated from Mike due to what was described as “unkind, cruel, harsh and tyrannical treatment and conduct” at around the same time that Bouhe said that Marina told him (Bouhe) that Oswald had hit her, and observed bruises on her.

The question is; what exactly were Ruth, Mike and Bouhe up to? I think it had something to do with Oswald’s employment at Jaggars-Chiles-Stovall. According to the official story, Oswald got the job there through the Texas employment commission. Marina told the Warren Commission that Bouhe had a hand in getting Oswald the job there:

The official story is that Oswald first met Ruth Paine on February 22, 1963 at the home of Everett Glover, a chemist working for the Socony Mobil Oil Company in Dallas. But was he actually living with the bitch before that time? The following is from an interview with Robert Stovall, the President of Jaggars-Chiles-Stovall:

“[stovall] said that when Oswald came to work he gave an address in Irving which he later changed to a post office Box number presumably in Dallas.”

http://www.maryferrell.org/mffweb/archive/viewer/showDoc.do?mode=searchResult&absPageId=329938

On or about September 1962, Ruth Paine separated from Michael Paine; allegedly due to what was described as “unkind, cruel, harsh and tyrannical treatment and conduct” from Mikey. http://www.maryferrell.org/mffweb/archive/viewer/showDoc.do?docId=11246&relPageId=35

What I find interesting is that George Bouhe (a prominent member of the Dallas/Fort worth “white” Russian community) told the Warren Commission that Marina told him (Bouhe) that Oswald had hit her; and that this was within the first two weeks of September, 1962:

And this i find MOST curious

Mr. JENNER - Now the same question with respect to clothing for himself, for Marina, and for June and Rachel. You have told us about the one instance in which he gave Marina some money to buy shoes for June, which was----

Mrs. PAINE - No, the shoes were for Marina.

Mr. JENNER - Were for Marina, and this had occurred during the week of the assassination?

Mrs. PAINE - Our plan was to go out on Friday afternoon, the 22d of November, to buy these shoes. Just when he gave her the money, I am not certain. And these, of course, were not bought. I can think of nothing that was bought. Yes, one thing. When she was with me in the spring, late April to the 9th of May, she had some money from Lee for her own expenses, and she used a portion of this, I would think a rather large portion, buying a pair of maternity shorts, or they may have been Bermuda shorts, longer than that, slacks, even, possibly, but I know they cost nearly $5, and this was quite a large expenditure and quite a thrill. These were bought in Irving.

No shoes for Marina on the day of the assassination, but a shoe salesman yes's Oswald.

Thanks, Ed, for extending the discussion.

(1.0) I remember arguing bitterly with Lee Farley, some years back, about whether or not LHO beat Marina. I researched it rather well, IMHO, and the evidence suggests that LHO beat Marina during only one period in his life -- when they were interacting closely with the White Russian community in Dallas.

(1.1) It was over George Bouhe, who bought Marina a baby crib and "a hundred dresses" according to Jeanne DeMohrenschildt, and even offered to pay for Marina's sorely needed, expensive dental work. LHO told George DeMohrenschildt he would rip up the dresses and smash the baby crib. George Bouhe later testified that he was afraid of LHO and was afraid LHO could be violent.

(1.2) James DiEugenio and the school of Carol Hewett make a repeated mistake in insisting -- despite Ruth Paine's testimony -- that Ruth Paine knew George DeMohrenschildt and the White Russian community in Dallas very well. Ruth denies being any part of their close-knit circle. No solid evidence links Ruth to them.

(1.3) The TRUTH is that Ruth Paine met George DeMohrenschildt once and once only during 1962-1965, and she spoke Russian so poorly that she had no opportunity of any kind to become friends with the White Russians in Dallas, who tended to be a tight-knit clan of immigrants from Eastern Europe, speaking Russian fluently, and worshipping at the Orthodox Church in Dallas. She knew one of them, the elder Mamantov IIRC, whom she hired briefly as a Russian tutor, but that was it.

(1.4) Therefore, even though that White Russian community all testified to the WC that they saw bruises on Marina's face during the period the Oswalds were interacting with them -- it is completely believable on Ruth's part that she never heard anything about the beatings. Marina, at some level, liked Ruth Paine and appreciated her Quaker charity, and was savvy enough to know that to stay on Ruth's good side, it was worthwhile to promote a proper, middle-class front as far as possible. So Marina never told Ruth about it.

(2.0) As for LHO's transportation to Dallas to Irving and back, Ruth Paine explains all of it in her testimony, as far as she could possibly know it. That first hitchhike of LHO to Ruth's house on October 4th, for example, LHO said he got one ride from a black guy, who felt sorry for LHO's story and gave him a ride all the way to Ruth Paine's door. The speed of the trip surprised Ruth. Ruth simply accepted his story -- what else could she do?

(2.1) If we visit Irving today, it's a fairly dense suburb. But in 1963 Irving was fairly undeveloped, with many empty lots, and there was no bus stop nearer to Ruth's home than 3 miles. Ruth Paine, like Michael, came from money, so she always had a car, and she never took the bus, so naturally she wouldn't know the busfare.

(2.2) Since LHO started work in October 16th, it is doubtful that Buell Frazier gave LHO a ride on October 12th. It is likely that LHO would occasionally take a bus to the inter-city bus stop from Dallas, and then walk 3 miles.

(2.3) You ask how LHO got to work from this North Beckley room to the TSBD, and the answer is that he took the bus daily, since there was a dense bus service throughout Dallas.

(3.0) As for Lee Farley's attack on Ruth's veracity about October 18th, it's rooted in Farley's failure to read Ruth's testimony closely. Since October 18th was a Friday, naturally BWF drove LHO to Irving, and yes, they had a birthday cake for him. Ruth Paine is a very traditional person. During that weekend, Marina did go into labor on Saturday night, and Ruth drove Marina to Parkland Hospital in Dallas, leaving LHO at her home in Irving to take care of the children. Baby Rachel Oswald was born on Sunday 20 October 1963.

(3.1) The confusion arises because Jenner himself keeps flipping backwards and forwards between October and November in rapid- fire questions. So, when Jenner asks about "that weekend," Ruth speaks about November. Then Jenner flips back to October. This trips Ruth up, and it's unclear whether Jenner deliberately tried to trip her up.

(4.0) You ask how LHO got his ride to listen to General Walker's speech on October 23rd at the Dallas Memorial Auditorium on US DAY, in which he and the JBS, the NIC and his Minutemen booby-trapped the Auditorium for Adlai Stevenson's appearance for UN DAY the following evening. The answer is given in Michael Paine's testimony. Michael drove LHO to that event as Michael himself sought out a JBS meeting to attend. Both LHO and Michael Paine liked "infiltrating" opposing political groups and comparing notes.

(4.1) You ask where Michael Paine dropped LHO after the ACLU meeting they both attended on October 25th, and the answer is that Michael drove LHO back to Ruth Paine's house in Irving, where they started from, since this was the weekend.

(4.2) As for that CBS report about LHO taking both a bus and a taxi to his room on North Beckley, that was the day JFK was killed. The WC concluded that LHO took the taxi because the bus was bogged down in unusually heavy traffic.

(5.0) As for Hassan Yusuf's comment that Ruth Paine "did everything she could to nail Oswald to the wall," that's simply incorrect. Ruth Paine defended LHO to the WC on multiple occasions.

(5.1) Ruth and Michael Paine had agreed on that day, in their 11/22/1963 collect phone call, overheard by the operator, that they didn't believe LHO killed JFK, but they "both knew who was responsible," and as Ruth Paine explained later, those "reponsible" were the authors of the WANTED:JFK handbill, and the WELCOME TO DALLAS, MR. KENNEDY black-bordered advertisement in the DMN -- whoever they were.

(5.2) Ruth told the WC that LHO was not a violent person, and showed no animosity toward JFK. She saw NO MOTIVE. Ruth is a very intelligent woman, and knows what she saw. Ruth says to this very day that if somebody can explain all the "circumstantial evidence" promoted by the WC, that she would finally accept a CT, even after 50 years.

(6.0) Your theory, Ed, that Ruth Paine separated from Michael Paine in September 1962 in order to get Marina to live with her is simply mistaken. Ruth never met the Oswalds (or the DeMohrenschildt's) until a 22 February 1963 party at Everett Glovers. Marina and Ruth liked each other, and decided to meet each other for lunch in March.

(6.1) Then, in March, Marina started the ball rolling by confessing to Ruth that (1) she was pregnant; and (2) LHO was threatening to send her back to the USSR without her.

(6.2) That was the point when Ruth Paine's heart went out to Marina, and Ruth decided to "save" Marina Oswald.

(6.3) In 1963, Ruth Paine met the DeMohrenschildt's for the first and last time. Carol Hewett and her followers try to make a link between Ruth and the DeMohrenschildt's based only on suspicion -- and not one single fact.

(7.0) As for your question, Ed, namely, "what exactly were Ruth, Mike and Bouhe up to," it is based on the PROBE magazine misconception that Ruth Paine was close with the White Russian community in Dallas.

(7.1) Ruth Paine never met George Bouhe at any time, ever. Ruth wasn't Russian, while Bouhe was the defacto leader of the White Russians in Dallas. Ruth could barely speak Russian, and Ruth wasn't Orthodox. She had no occasion to meet him.

(7.2) Finally, if Bouhe had any hand in getting Oswald the job at the TSBD, then I'm astounded, because George Bouhe was hated by LHO, and was intimidated by LHO. He admitted this to the WC, and it was confirmed by the WC testimony of the DeMohrenschildt's. George Bouhe liked Marina a lot. LHO knew that and hated George Bouhe a lot.

(8.0) The report by Robert Stovall, President of Jaggars-Chiles-Stovall, that when Oswald applied to work there, he started with an Irving address -- is useless unless we can actually obtain the FULL ADDRESS.

(9.0) As for the separation of the Paines, we must remember that 1963 was a very different marital climate than 2016. The claim of "irreconcilable differences" was still uncommon, and judges would demand some reason such as "cruelty" to allow separations. The real reason was that Michael told Ruth he was bored with the marriage, period. Ruth wished Michael lots of luck in finding somebody new.

(10.0) As for Bouhe's testimony to the WC that Marina said LHO hit her (to explain her black eye, presumably) back in September 1962, that was agreed by both the DeMohrenschildts and all of the White Russian community in Dallas. Again Ruth Paine had no interaction with them, nor would she have any reason to interact with them.

(10.1) Finally, Ed, I didn't get your point about the money LHO gave Marina for shoes. Ruth's point was that LHO rarely gave Marina any money at all throughout 1963, nor did he offer to chip in for her expenses while Ruth was taking care of Marina.

Regards,

--Paul Trejo

Edited January 2, 2016 by Paul Trejo

[James DiEugenio]

Robert Charles Dunne, one of the best writers and researchers this board ever saw, once went through this whole "Oswald beat his wife" issue at length and in depth.

In a tour de force performance, one worthy of Sylvia Meagher, he demonstrated that this whole rigamarole originated from a single source.

Which, of course, if that is accurate, it raises a lot of questions about Bouhe and the White Russian community that the Paines interacted with. (A question that George Micahel Evica also brought up in his final book A Certain Arrogance.)

If you recall, Bouhe also advised Marina after the assassination, that it was just a coincidence that he shared a pool with Jack Ruby,

And in something really inexplicable, there is the following:

" On the Property Clerk's Invoice for the search of Ruth Paine's home on the 23rd, the following item appears, Postal Form bearing George A. Bouhe, 4740 Homer St., Dallas, Tex. Postal Form bearing name Lee Oswald dated 11/20/63" This perhaps means that the form for Oswald was then attached to one for Bouhe. But what on earth would a postage due form be doing at Ruth Paine's? And who wold attach it t the form due for Oswald's mystery package? And why? Bouhe is the man who's name surfaced in Marian Oswald's testimony to Garrison's grand jury in an odd way. Marina mentioned him as one of her English tutors in Dallas. Garrison asked if she knew that Bouhe lived a door down from Jack Ruby; that they knew each other, and shared a common swimming pool. Marina said she did know that. Because right after the assassination, Bouhe came to visit her. He told her that it was all just a coincidence that he happened to live next door to her husband's killer. Bouhe was the "organization man" who kept the files for the White Russian community." (Destiny Betrayed, Second Edition, pgs. 206-07)

As Evica notes, it is not easy to explain the Paines' close relationship with the White Russian community either from a religious point of view, or from an ideological point of view. But we do know through the work of Melanson that the Tolstoy Foundation was part of the funding for their Russian Orthodox Church, and as he noted, that foundation was CIA associated. And as I have shown at length above, the family ties of Ruth and Michael certainly suggest a CIA attar. In my book quoted above, I touched on this apparent paradox in a glancing way. (p. 196) But I probably should have gone into it a bit deeper. I hope Greg does so in his next volume since I think its an important point.

Because, I for one, have always been intrigued by the association of the supposedly liberal and progressive Paines with the rather rightwing White Russian community, which, as Evica pointed out, had religious rites and customs that were not at all Quakerish. Because if one looks closely at this combination of maneuvering by the Paines and the White Russians, around Oswald and Marina, it does more than slightly resemble the book and film Rosemary's Baby. If one recalls, that sixties mystery thriller was about a witches/warlock coven that secretly bribes, drugs and then seduces a young couple to fulfill an agenda of their own.

In my view, its an apt parallel.

Edited January 1, 2016 by James DiEugenio

[James DiEugenio]

EL: The question is; what exactly were Ruth, Mike and Bouhe up to? I think it had something to do with Oswald’s employment at Jaggars-Chiles-Stovall.

​Isn't there also evidence that the Baron was in on getting LHO that job also?

“[stovall] said that when Oswald came to work he gave an address in Irving which he later changed to a post office Box number presumably in Dallas.”

I agree Ed, this is interesting also.

And I assume your point about the transportation is that you suspect it was Ruth driving him around?

Edited January 1, 2016 by James DiEugenio

[James DiEugenio]

BTW, before beginning on the Imperial Reflex Camera mystery, as part of the whole Paine garage quagmire, let me wrap up Carol's wonderful work on the whole Minox Camera charade.

As I noted on the BOR excerpt, it strongly appears that Hoover enlisted both Odum and Shanklin in order to make Oswald's Minox camera disappear, even though it had been clearly noted on the Dallas Police inventory and photographed. He also wanted the FBI to interview the Paines on this.

To make a long story short--and i strongly advise the reader to listen to the Black Op excerpt noted above in this thread on page 1,--the Paines participated in the little playlet directed by Hoover and the FBI, and now Oswald's Minox, which was clearly found by the Dallas Police, became for the FBI, Mike Paine's Minox. Incredibly, this whole fiction was never explored by the WC.

But here is my question, if the FBI buys all of that, then why today are there TWO MINOXES in the National Archives? And further, why is one sealed shut?

Like I have always maintained, you don't have to pull off a perfect crime. You just control the cover up.

Edited January 2, 2016 by James DiEugenio

[Paul Trejo]

...But here is my question, if the FBI buys all of that, then why today are there TWO MINOXES in the National Archives? And further, why is one sealed shut?

Like I have always maintained, you don't have to pull off a perfect crime. You just control the cover up.

It's easy to explain why there were two Minox cameras -- an additional Minox camera was introduced into the evidence to try to discover if Marina Oswald would change her story.

The evidence we have suggests that the Minox camera belonged to Michael Paine, because he said it was his. The FBI accepted this. The DPD, which had to repeat their "thorough" search of the Paine residence multiple times, was simply incompetent. (This is proved by the nonsense report by Buddy Walthers of "five or six metal filing cabinets full of the names of Cuban Sympathizers" which never surfaced in any list, or photograph known to the DPD, FBI or WC or anybody, ever.)

Now, it might turn out that LHO was a petty informant for the FBI, so it might turn out that some Minox camera really belonged to LHO, and that Hoover demanded that this be hushed up. That's not impossible in my scenario.

Yet that would conform to my theory that Hoover demanded a "Lone Nut" LHO in the interest of National Security. If the American Public and the USSR ever learned that former WW2 General Edwin Walker was the mastermind of the JFK murder, then the USSR would have exploited the fact during the Cold War.

So, Hoover moved heaven and earth to tamper with all JFK evidence that suggested that LHO was more than somebody's Patsy, "and that he did not have accomplices who are still at large." LBJ strongly supported this, along with Allen Dulles and Earl Warren.

For all our disagreements, James DiEugenio and I agree that LHO did not kill JFK, and that LHO was the Patsy in the JFK Conspiracy.

James and I also agree that the FBI covered up that Conspiracy using all of its powers in the Federal Government.

James and I sharply disagree on the rest however. I say that the FBI covered up the JFK murder for purposes of National Security. James DiEugenio, like most CTers, claims that the FBI covered up the JFK murder because the FBI was part of the JFK Kill Team.

Regards,

--Paul Trejo

Edited January 2, 2016 by Paul Trejo

[Jon G. Tidd]

Paul,

I think Michael and Ruth Paine lied for this reason: After Oswald's arrest and murder, they had nothing good to say about him.

The Paines were well-educated, intelligent, relatively sophisticated individuals.

They sold down the river, with no apparent regrets, a man whom they had come to know, at least a little. A man, yes, who was not a great individual based on his education or position; a man who was extraordinary in some ways.

To characterize Oswald as a little man was a sexist play that worked surely in 1963.

Yeah, he was puny. You could kick sand in his face and take his girl.

The Paines didn't have to do this. They really didn't.

The fact the Paines have no regrets tells me something. They're true believers who care nought for the truth.

[Greg Parker]

Oh pahleeeze! Someone get this man an Iron Lung. I have no idea why. But it makes as much sense as what he just said.

[David G. Healy]

PTrejo states:

...

"James and I sharply disagree on the rest however. I say that the FBI covered up the JFK murder for purposes of National Security. James DiEugenio, like most CTers, claims that the FBI covered up the JFK murder because the FBI was part of the JFK Kill Team.

Regards,

--Paul Trejo

*************

kill team? where does James state that?

Edited January 1, 2016 by David G. Healy

[Paul Trejo]

Paul,

I think Michael and Ruth Paine lied for this reason: After Oswald's arrest and murder, they had nothing good to say about him.

The Paines were well-educated, intelligent, relatively sophisticated individuals.

They sold down the river, with no apparent regrets, a man whom they had come to know, at least a little. A man, yes, who was not a great individual based on his education or position; a man who was extraordinary in some ways.

To characterize Oswald as a little man was a sexist play that worked surely in 1963.

Yeah, he was puny. You could kick sand in his face and take his girl.

The Paines didn't have to do this. They really didn't.

The fact the Paines have no regrets tells me something. They're true believers who care nought for the truth.

You're mistaken about Ruth and Michael Paine's statements about LHO after the JFK murder, Jon.

Here's what Ruth Paine told the Warren Commission:

Mrs. PAINE. This would be a good time to review the rest of the pertinent part of this letter to my mother written October 14^th (CE-425) because it shows something that I think should be part of the public record, and I am one of the few people who can give it, that presents Lee Oswald as a human person, a person really rather ordinary, not an ogre...But in this brief period during the times that he came out on weekends, I saw him as a person who cared for his wife and his child, tried to make himself helpful in my home, tried to make himself welcome...

It says: “Dear Mom, Lee Oswald ...spent last weekend and the one before with us here and was a happy addition to our expanded family. He played with Chris [my 3-year-old, then 2] watched football on the TV, planed down the doors that wouldn’t close, they had shifted and generally added a needed masculine flavor. From a poor first impression I have come to like him...."

...But it seems to me important, very important, to the record that we face the fact that this man was not only human but a rather ordinary one in many respects, and who appeared ordinary. If we think that this was a man such as we might never meet, a great aberration from the normal, someone who would stand out in a crowd as unusual, then we don’t know this man..."

Also, here is what Michael Paine told the Warren Commission:

Mr. LIEBELER. Did it occur to you at that time that Oswald had in fact had anything to do with the assassination?

Mr. PAINE. ...I didn’t see how it helped the causes that he was concerned about, so I thought it unlikely on that account...

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you think he was capable of doing that at that time?

Mr. PAINE. ...The only reason I didn’t think he was the shooter was because I didn’t see how it fit in with his philosophy or how it was going to forward his causes...

Also remember that in that secretly tapped phone call from Michael to Ruth on 11/22/1963, when Michael said, "we both know who is responsible," Ruth Paine later explained that they were talking about the authors of the WANTED:JFK handbill, and the DMN Black-bordered Ad -- and certainly not LHO.

That said, we must also recognize how many people were looking for a scapegoat in 1963, and how many people wanted to make Ruth and Michael Paine into that scapegoat. After all, they had been the closest to LHO in the eight weeks leading up to the murder of JFK. Why not blame them?

The WC attorneys asked the Paines more questions than anybody else by far -- more than six thousand questions -- including the most nit-picking questions, and changing dates, trying to get them to slip up. That is, the WC was also keen to blame the Paines for conspiracy to murder JFK if they only could.

If they could only prove Buddy Walthers boast that he found "five or six metal filing cabinets full of names of Cuban sympathizers" they would have had a field day. Failing that, the WC pushed and pushed on the Paines to advance the FBI theory that LHO was the "Lone Nut". The "Lone Nut" theory was being pushed by the FBI, LBJ, the CIA, the WC and finally (after their "Commie Nut" theory failed) the DPD. The Paines had to defend themselves from this juggernaut. They had no choice.

The Paines felt much regret about the Oswalds. Ruth Paine tried for months to connect again with Marina Oswald, but the Oswald family -- both Robert and Marguerite, and even Robert's wife -- refused to even let Ruth into their front door.

Robert Oswald publicly said he hated and despised Michael Paine -- but when journalists asked him -- for years afterward -- for the reason why, he refused to answer, and went to his grave refusing to answer.

Marguerite Oswald said she wanted to whip Ruth Paine with a horse whip. But she didn't say why, except to remark that Ruth Paine was a self-righteous Quaker.

It was seeking a scapegoat -- that was the Zeitgeist of the times. The Paines surely did have to defend themselves.

Regards,

--Paul Trejo

Edited January 2, 2016 by Paul Trejo

[Paul Trejo]

PTrejo states:

...

"James and I sharply disagree on the rest however. I say that the FBI covered up the JFK murder for purposes of National Security. James DiEugenio, like most CTers, claims that the FBI covered up the JFK murder because the FBI was part of the JFK Kill Team.

Regards,

--Paul Trejo

*************

kill team? where does James state that?

Get real, David. Are you now denying that James DiEugenio blames the FBI for an active role in the murder of JFK?

Regards,

--Paul Trejo

Edited January 2, 2016 by Paul Trejo

[Paul Brancato]

Paul T - Kill team? Where does Jim say that?