French Connection

[Steve Thomas]

Tim,

So Trafficante may very well have been serving two (or even three) masters when he helped plan the Kennedy hit.

You need cutouts and plausible deniability.

The people who made the decision to kill John F. Kennedy were not the same people who planned it.

The people who planned it were not the same people who carried it out.

The people who carried it out were not the same people who covered it up.

That's why it gets so confusing.

Steve Thomas

[Jim Root]

Shanet

Not sure if I posted this information at any time in the past. I do know I mentioned the book, "The Murder of Admiral Darlan" written by a former member of the OSS named Peter Thompkins. There are some similarities between that political assassination and the assassination of Kennedy. That the book was published in 1964 which may have been opportune from the market place or may have been developed because of the authors insights into the more recent assassination of Kennedy.

At the end of the book Thompkins gives an in depth study of French Intelligence and intrigue that may be interesting to anyone looking into backround on those organizations/persons that were still around in 1963.

With the more recent Morley, Neuman revelations the fact that Thompkins, at the end of World War II, was stationed (with the OSS) in Germany and was working with Frank Wisner and Richard Helms. Thompkins, by the way, is alive and well living in Italy.

http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/nati...7355_spy04.html

Jim Root

[Wade Rhodes]

I see David is out of prison but who received the letter??

""As for Rivele's thoughts on the theory today, here is what he said:

I have not touched the case since 1988; as my old friend Josiah Thompson says: it eats your soul. David was released from prison a few years ago and is alive in France. I assume that Nicoli is still alive. David's letter to his lawyer was obtained (I don't know how) by two researchers (one in Dallas, one in Paris), who promised to make it public last spring, but evidently were frightened out of doing so. They still won't share the contents with me.

I believe that Sarti was involved, but apparently I was wrong on the other two. If I were working on the case today, I'd look at Paul Mondoloni of Montreal and a mafia type named Le Blanc, also out of Montreal, I think.""

[Shanet Clark]

Shanet

Not sure if I posted this information at any time in the past.  I do know I mentioned the book, "The Murder of Admiral Darlan" written by a former member of the OSS named Peter Thompkins.  There are some similarities between that political assassination and the assassination of Kennedy.  That the book was published in 1964 which may have been opportune from the market place or may have been  developed because of the authors insights into the more recent assassination of Kennedy.

At the end of the book Thompkins gives an in depth study of French Intelligence and intrigue that may be interesting to anyone looking into backround on those organizations/persons that were still around in 1963.

With the more recent Morley, Neuman revelations the fact that Thompkins, at the end of World War II, was stationed (with the OSS) in Germany and was working with Frank Wisner and Richard Helms.  Thompkins, by the way, is alive and well living in Italy.

http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/nati...7355_spy04.html

Jim Root

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Thanks Jim,

The Bartholomew material was the first reference to Darnal that I came across, and Bartholomew thinks the assassination to Admiral Darnal was an Allen Dulles project....so they are linked.

I am still looking for anything on the Cabarra attempt in 1962 on DeGaulle, to see if any operational or personnel aspects resemble Dallas........

[Greg Wagner]

I see David is out of prison but who received the letter??

""As for Rivele's thoughts on the theory today, here is what he said:

I have not touched the case since 1988; as my old friend Josiah Thompson says: it eats your soul. David was released from prison a few years ago and is alive in France. I assume that Nicoli is still alive. David's letter to his lawyer was obtained (I don't know how) by two researchers (one in Dallas, one in Paris), who promised to make it public last spring, but evidently were frightened out of doing so. They still won't share the contents with me.

I believe that Sarti was involved, but apparently I was wrong on the other two. If I were working on the case today, I'd look at Paul Mondoloni of Montreal and a mafia type named Le Blanc, also out of Montreal, I think.""

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Good info, Wade. I had not heard that David was now out of prison. That's sort of a good news/bad news scenario re: the letter. If these people were intimidated in some way in order to keep the letter's contents private, that would seem to validate David' story. Or parts of it.

[James Richards]

Good info, Wade. I had not heard that David was now out of prison. That's sort of a good news/bad news scenario re: the letter. If these people were intimidated in some way in order to keep the letter's contents private, that would seem to validate David' story. Or parts of it. (Greg Wagner)

Hi Greg,

I would be cautious with any letter or document that claims any kind of genuine information. To have someone intimidated into keeping something quiet is a good way to give the information in question validity. It creates believers and defenders. If the material ever does leak out then there will be plenty on hand to strongly vindicate it. There will of course be the other side who will try to discredit it and the battle begins. The purpose of disinformation being served.

We have seen this many times in the course of assassination research. For me, the French connection is another in a long line of researcher dangles.

In my opinion of course.

James

[Greg Wagner]

To Greg:

Hi Tim:

Do you really think so many people would be asked to help kill the President and not one of them would object and report it?

A small group at the very top, who believed JFK was a liability to the country, who believed he was "soft" on communism on the heels of the McCarthy era and at the height of the Cold War- a small group at the top that was vehemently opposed to his refusal to invade Cuba (3 times, by the way: missile crisis, refusal to engage elements of U.S. military at BOP, shutting down plans for the 2nd invasion), very displeased by his intent to withdraw from SE Asia, and equally unhappy with his signing of the test ban treaty with the USSR and his back channel communications with Khrushchev. And this is without even getting into more personal motivations by men like LBJ and Hoover. So, do I believe that they could work together to remove Kennedy as a matter (in their minds) of patriotism and national security (the standard right wing, fascist battle cry)? Absolutely. There is no doubt in my mind. Unquestionably yes.

IMO, the issue of security stripping is ludicrous. I know Al Carrier, who has experience and training in this area, agrees with me. Security, or the lack thereof, was no different in Dallas than on any of Kennedy's other trips. You mention the lack of running boards on the presidential limousine. Is it your contention the limousine had running boards but they were removed before the Dallas trip? Of perhaps the engineers who designed the limousine deliberately left off running boards just in case someone wanted to kill the President.

Respectfully Tim, you could not be more wrong. Kennedy certainly was stripped of his security that day in Dallas. After watching the Love Field/WFAA TV video where Emory Roberts CLEARLY orders Rybka off of the right rear of GG 300 as the motorcade gets underway (have you seen this piece of footage?), I was compelled to contact Vince Palamara. Vince is largely responsible for this

footage coming to light and has done extensive primary research on the actions of the Secret Service on 11/22/63, particularly within the motorcade. His findings will be published later this year in a book titled Survivor's Guilt. While the Warren Commission interviewed 12 Secret Service agents, and the HSCA 44, Palamara has personally interviewed over 70 agents and former agents, including many who were present in that doomed motorcade. Quite frankly, the evidence proving complicity of the Secret Service command personnel is in first hand accounts of over 70 agents, some of them participants in the DP motorcade. So, with regard to the "EVIDENCE" (as you so emphatically put it), I'll hit the highlights for you (again, but with a few items I did not mention before, and with a few omitted that are available in my previous post):

1) The retractable running boards or "side steps" were in place and available that day, but they were not deployed or used. I agree, that fact in and of itself does not prove anything nefarious was afoot. Until you consider the fact that these running boards were deployed and utilized in similar circumstances on trips to Florida, Berlin, Ireland, Italy, El Paso and Hawaii. And none of these visits had the security problems or threat level that the Dallas trip did.

2) It was also STANDARD PROCEDURE for agents (Rybka and Hill, in this case) to be stationed on the rear platforms behind JFK and Mrs. Kennedy in such a motorcade. This occurred with regularity in this type of procession, with the exception of the Dallas trip. Clearly, when you see the shift leader, Emory Roberts, ordering Rybka (and probably Hill, although he is difficult to see in the video) OFF of the limo as it departs, and you witness Rybka's reaction to the order as the follow-up car drives by and leaves him standing on the tarmac at Love Field angry and perplexed (obvious when you watch the video), any reasonable person would find this compelling. Again recalling the classification of the Dallas trip by the Secret Service itself as high risk and potentially hostile.

3) The Secret Service made other last minute changes to the motorcade at Love Field, reducing the DPD motorcycles from 6 down to 2 and relegating them to positions behind the limo as opposed to in front of it. This opened up Kennedy to fields of fire from behind AND in front. Typically, GG 300 was flanked by 3 to 4 motorcycles on each side in such a procession. But, despite the high risk nature of the Dallas trip based on the higher than usual number of threats to Kennedy's life in the preceding weeks, the Secret Service acted to all but eliminate this element of the security profile. Now that my friend, is "ludicrous."

4) It was also standard in such a motorcade for Kennedy's personal physician and military aide (the man with the "football", who I believe was Godfrey McHugh) to be in (in McHugh's case) or very near (in the doctor’s case) GG 300. Not so in Dallas. Again, it was the SECRET SERVICE who placed them in the rear of the procession, along with others who were normally close to Kennedy in similar trips: the press, photographers, and camera men. Ordered to the rear of the motorcade by the Secret Service. For obvious reasons, no doubt.

5) Agent Sam Kinney, driver of the follow-up car stating that at the time of the shooting, Roberts ORDERED his men not to move. Clint Hill was the only agent to disobey. He stated that with better reaction to the first shot, he (or they) could have reached Kennedy in time to save him. That makes Roberts' orders not to move not only incriminating, but critical (if you believe Hill was correct in his assessment of their unencumbered reaction time).

As I stated, these are only the highlights. It is the contention of Fetcher Prouty, Vince Palamara, and most of the over 70 Secret Service (active and former, I believe) agents interviewed by Palamara that, in addition to the accuracy of the above points, a total of no less than 15 Secret Service codes of protection, most of which were standard and employed in similar circumstances prior to Dallas, were violated by the Secret Service that day- and violated as the result of the ORDERS that they received from Emory Roberts on up. While some of the accountability is harder to pin on any certain agent or set of orders, many were violated on the explicit orders of Floyd Boring and his direct report, Emory Roberts.

I'm not an attorney (although law school may be on the horizon once the MBA is complete), but I would suggest that a judge would consider the statements of Fletcher Prouty (given his experience and background) and over 70 Secret Service agents to be particularly relevant testimony. Furthermore, based on the subject matter, I would submit that said testimony would be considered by the court to be that of “experts” and would consider their statements as evidence.

It is not clear who you think LHO was. I suspect he was working for US intelligence in some capacity, which, as I have suggested in other threads, demonstrates why the CIA did not kill JFK. Had the CIA wanted to, it could have found a true left-wing patsy with no connection to U.S. intelligence.

I believe that LHO was probably a low-level Intelligence asset, but certainly not a trusted agent. He was being set-up as the patsy since shortly after the Dallas trip was announced (April, I think). While it's true that LHO certainly was not their only option as a patsy, he was a better option specifically BECAUSE he was under their control- they could manipulate the "official legend" more easily as the plan evolved. Oswald seems to me to have been a wanna-be, a personality type easily exploited. He probably thought that he was "an agent", but they were simply using him. I don't think he ever fired a shot at Kennedy. Admittedly, this is just my opinion. LHO is quite the enigma. Given the available evidence, it would be foolish and arrogant for anyone, myself included, to profess that they have him all figured out.

Re the Cuba peace initiative, since JFK and RFK were trying to kill Castro through Cubela, that was onbiously a farce--and Castro knew it. Why do you think he scheduled his meeting with Daniel for the very moment he knew his agents would be killing Kennedy? I suppose it was just a phenomenal coincidence. And why do you think Lisa Howard, the ABC reporter so significant in the peace initiatives, turned so violently against RFK that she helped form "Democrats for Keating" in 1964 when she had previously been a Kennedy supporter? Because she had discovered that the peace initiatives were a farce.

I'll just say that I do not believe there is conclusive evidence either way, but in my mind, it is much more plausible that Castro knew JFK (since he had thrice refused to invade Cuba) was his best shot at survival. If Khrushchev realized that the real danger from the Americans lay with the right wing cold warriors in the Pentagon and CIA (and he did, source: RFK's Thirteen Days) and not from JFK (hence the back channel communications- neither man trusted the hard liners in their own gov't), then it's reasonable to assume that Castro did also.

Castro's best hope was with JFK who was trying to kill him? What kind of reasoning is this? You know, do you not, that LBJ ordered all assassination attempts against Castro terminated.

Only because the CIA's attempts to paint LHO (their patsy) as a communist with ties to Cuba (New Orleans, the Mexico City lie) worked all too well. Johnson (see Holland’s The Kennedy Assassination Tapes) believed that if LHO were tied to Cuba in the public’s perception, it could lead to nuclear war. Real or perceived, that was LBJ's belief and it's what he stated in taped conversations. Thus the Katzenbach memo and Johnson's Warren Commission. Johnson's IMMEDIATE reversal of Kennedy's withdrawal policy on Vietnam was probably, at least in part, a way to placate the right wing Pentagon/CIA/MICC types in 1963 who were the initiators of Kennedy's removal, and their hunger for war against communism and the financial profits to be won as a result.

And re Trafficante, he was making far more money from being a drug distributor in the US than he had made with the Havana casinos.

Perhaps. I'll defer to you on that one. But something about Castro shutting him down, kicking him out, seizing his casinos and booty, and costing him millions (even if he was making more in other ventures) tells me that old Santos would not be inclined to do him any favors. Certainly not one of this magnitude.

So far all you and the other people who suggest an "internal coup" do is offer speculation with no evidence of any nature. There is substantial evidence demonstrating Trafficante's involvement in the assassination, including a remark he made caught on a FBI wiretap, and his death-bed admission to his attorney. Plus, of course, his ties to Ruby. Trafficante was linked to Cubela and Cubela was linked to Castro.

I would submit the above evidence. I would recommend Palamara's book when it comes out- research does not get any more primary. And what I mention here is only a small portion of the statements he has collected. And if you have not viewed the video to which I referred, please do. I have a copy, but I'm having a heck of a time trying to get it copied into a format that I can email or post. I'm efforting that. I did manage to create a few stills of the Rybka scene which I tried to attach. Although I seem to have room for them (5 jpeg stills), it's only allowing me to post one. While the film is much more compelling, I was hoping to post this series of shots to give some idea for those who have not seen the footage. I'll keep trying.

Certainly Tim, you are right about the scarcity of hard evidence, but I think that cuts across all of the various theories in this case. I do however think that the issue of evidence is more problematic for purveyors of theories such as yours. Sorry, just my opinion. I don't doubt the involvement of the mob, but at a low, operational level, i.e. transportation, maybe handling payments, and of course, whacking Oswald.

If you have any EVIDENCE that anyone in the US government plotted the death of JFK (other than the non-issue of "security stripping") now would be an opportune time to post it.

And you be sure and let me know when Fidel confesses to you and offers up the box of missing links.

You'll forgive me if I don't spend my nights waiting by the phone.

Edited February 18, 2005 by Greg Wagner

[Greg Wagner]

Good info, Wade. I had not heard that David was now out of prison. That's sort of a good news/bad news scenario re: the letter. If these people were intimidated in some way in order to keep the letter's contents private, that would seem to validate David' story. Or parts of it. (Greg Wagner)

Hi Greg,

I would be cautious with any letter or document that claims any kind of genuine information. To have someone intimidated into keeping something quiet is a good way to give the information in question validity. It creates believers and defenders. If the material ever does leak out then there will be plenty on hand to strongly vindicate it. There will of course be the other side who will try to discredit it and the battle begins. The purpose of disinformation being served.

We have seen this many times in the course of assassination research. For me, the French connection is another in a long line of researcher dangles.

In my opinion of course.

James

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Hi James-

What's happening over there on the other side of the world these days?

Point taken. Even if the letter came out and contained legit info, the other side would undoubtedly launch a campaign to muddy the waters. And at the end of the day we'd all be debating it's authenticity, accuracy, credibility, true meaning, etc. I would be interested in talking to that attorney though.

My take on the Corsican teams/mechanics is largely speculation. A theory that seems to make sense to me, but one that I haven't investigated beyond a cursory glance. Certainly could be another attempt in the long line of misdirection plays as you rightly suggest. But I'm going to it alive (in my twisted mind) on the back burner until I can take a closer look at the tactical piece. Not really my forte, but certainly essential to understanding what happened on 11/22/63.

[Tim Gratz]

Greg wrote:

1) The retractable running boards or "side steps" were in place and available that day, but they were not deployed or used. I agree, that fact in and of itself does not prove anything nefarious was afoot. Until you consider the fact that these running boards were deployed and utilized in similar circumstances on trips to Florida, Berlin, Ireland, Italy, El Paso and Hawaii. And none of these visits had the security problems or threat level that the Dallas trip did.

Greg, respectfully, where are you getting this information from?

I just went to the corbis web-site and punched in the search for "President Kennedy motorcades. I have just viewed the photograph of Kennedy standing up waving to the crowds in Berlin, flanked by Mayor Brown and Konrad Adenaur. There are no running boards and no secret service men on the boards.

I am unable to attach the photo but go to the corbis web-site. It is apparently number BEO25551 and it could not be clearer NO RUNNING BOARDS!

Edited February 18, 2005 by Tim Gratz

[Tim Gratz]

Not only that, it did not change after Dallas either. On the same corbis web-site is U145789 Robert Kennedy and Sen Hubert Humphrey standing up in an open Lincoln convertible driving through New York City in October of 1964 (no running boards) with crowds literally only feet away from them.

Check it out! Nice photo, too.

[Tim Gratz]

And now I have located a photo of the Kennedy motorcade in Italy--again where you state there were running boards in place. Wrong again.

Corbis U1385624.

There are motorcycle police officers on at least one side of the open convertible, but there are NO RUNNING BOARDS, as you had stated.

[Tim Gratz]

You also mentioned running boards on his trip to Hawaii.

WRONG AGAIN.

Corbis U1382867. He is standing in an open convertible, within feet of spectators. No running boards. No motorcycle officers on either side of the car.

[Tim Gratz]

And I researched Kennedy's November 1962 trip to my adopted home town of Key West Florida (wrote a newspaper article about it). They borrowed a Lincoln convertible from a Lincoln dealership in Miami and Kennedy drove slowly down Duval Street in the open convertible with no motorcycle officers on the side--and there were several "tall" buildings on the street.

[Greg Wagner]

Greg wrote:

1) The retractable running boards or "side steps" were in place and available that day, but they were not deployed or used. I agree, that fact in and of itself does not prove anything nefarious was afoot. Until you consider the fact that these running boards were deployed and utilized in similar circumstances on trips to Florida, Berlin, Ireland, Italy, El Paso and Hawaii. And none of these visits had the security problems or threat level that the Dallas trip did.

Greg, respectfully, where are you getting this information from?

I just went to the corbis web-site and punched in the search for "President Kennedy motorcades.  I have just viewed the photograph of Kennedy standing up waving to the crowds in Berlin, flanked by Mayor Brown and Konrad Adenaur.  There are no running boards and no secret service men on the boards.

I am unable to attach the photo but go to the corbis web-site.  It is apparently number BEO25551 and it could not be clearer NO RUNNING BOARDS!

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Hi Tim-

From Vince Palamara directly. Who of course obtained that info from the agents themselves, along with some photographic evidence. Although I do not know which photos, I would imagine that they will appear in his book as corroboration. My error though, not his. And thanks for pointing it out. Vince used those cities as examples of similar circumstances where the above security measures (not just the running boards) were in place. He did mention that not 100% of those measures were in place on 100% of the trips. Simply that all of them were regularly deployed and standard depending on the circumstances. There were of course certain instances where the running boards, large number of motorcycles as flanking escorts, etc. were not practical given the circumstances. But most certainly, given the security concerns being expressed over the Dallas trip and the nature of the route, even if there was some valid reason for not using those side steps (which I have yet to hear), it makes no sense to drastically reduce the president's protection for that trip through DP. The running boards are simply one concern of at least 15.

[Tim Gratz]

To Greg:

I searched Corbis for Kennedy in Ireland and found a photo of the Kennedy motorcade in Cork Ireland. In that motorcade there were security agents standing on the driver's side of the convertible but none on Kennedy's side and he is standing, shaking hands of crowds that are standing literally a foot away from the convertible. Anyone could have popped him with a pistol!

So I am curious: where did you get the information (so obviously false) about running boards on his trips to Berlin, Hawaii, etc? Some one, for some reason, seems to be giving you false information.

Thanks to Corbis I can easily prove that part of your post is in plain error.

Can you disclose the source of your statement re the running boards? I am curious about it.