Challenge for Thomas Graves

[David Von Pein]

We don't know whether Oswald listed "Hidell" on his application for Dallas P.O. Box #2915 or not, because that section of the application was thrown away when Oswald closed out the box. (Although many CTers think that Harry Holmes was lying about that, too. But, what's new?)

Lots more about LHO's P.O. boxes here....

jfk-archives.blogspot.com/2010/07/post-office-applications.html

jfk-archives.blogspot.com/2014/07/jfk-assassination-arguments-part-739.html

Edited January 12, 2016 by David Von Pein

[Michael Cross]

Add to that that the rifle was addressed to Alex Hidell to a post office box in the name of Oswald, which means it should never have been accepted. It should have been "Returned to sender"

That's right Ray. That's one of the many problems with the alleged rifle purchase that doesn't seem to faze some people.

On a separate piece of paper with the PMO -- "Please send to me, A. Hidell, in care of (C/O.) L. H. Oswald"?

I don't suppose that's a possibility.

Probably not.

Oh well, back to the drawing board.

--Tommy

I "suppose" you can make up anything you want.

Doesn't make it true.

[Thomas Graves]

Add to that that the rifle was addressed to Alex Hidell to a post office box in the name of Oswald, which means it should never have been accepted. It should have been "Returned to sender"

That's right Ray. That's one of the many problems with the alleged rifle purchase that doesn't seem to faze some people.

On a separate piece of paper with the PMO -- "Please send to me, A. Hidell, in care of (C/O.) L. H. Oswald"?

I don't suppose that's a possibility.

Probably not.

Oh well, back to the drawing board.

--Tommy

I "suppose" you can make up anything you want.

Doesn't make it true.

Dear Mr. Cross,

Where did I say that it had to be true?

Thanks, btw, for suggesting that it might have been like that.

--Tommy

[Ray Mitcham]

We don't know whether Oswald listed "Hidell" on his application for Dallas P.O. Box #2915 or not, because that section of the application was thrown away when Oswald closed out the box. (Although many CTers think that Harry Holmes was lying about that, too. But, what's new?)

Lots more about LHO's P.O. boxes here....

jfk-archives.blogspot.com/2010/07/post-office-applications.html

jfk-archives.blogspot.com/2014/07/jfk-assassination-arguments-part-739.html

I believe Harry Holmes when he said he threw the section away. He had to it would have spoiled his story. But I don't believe that he had "Alex Hidell on the form.

[Michael Cross]

Add to that that the rifle was addressed to Alex Hidell to a post office box in the name of Oswald, which means it should never have been accepted. It should have been "Returned to sender"

That's right Ray. That's one of the many problems with the alleged rifle purchase that doesn't seem to faze some people.

On a separate piece of paper with the PMO -- "Please send to me, A. Hidell, in care of (C/O.) L. H. Oswald"?

I don't suppose that's a possibility.

Probably not.

Oh well, back to the drawing board.

--Tommy

I "suppose" you can make up anything you want.

Doesn't make it true.

Dear Mr. Cross,

Where did I say that it had to be true?

Thanks, btw, for suggesting that it might have been like that.

--Tommy

Funny.

I don't post here much because of people like you. I'm not sure what your agenda is, but it doesn't appear to have anything to do with the truth.

[Thomas Graves]

Dear Mr. Cross,

Where did I say that it had to be true?

Thanks, btw, for suggesting that it might have been like that.

--Tommy

Funny.

I don't post here much because of people like you. I'm not sure what your agenda is, but it doesn't appear to have anything to do with the truth.

Dear Mr. Cross,

At least you qualified part of your insult by using the word "appear".

Which leads me to offer you this friendly piece of advice. "Appearances can be deceiving."

It will be interesting to see what you read into that...

--Tommy

Edited January 13, 2016 by Thomas Graves

[Greg Burnham]

[i posted this in the wrong thread. I moved it to correct the correct thread.]

Edited January 13, 2016 by Greg Burnham

[Sandy Larsen]

Tommy - Thanks for bringing up the Thomas Dodd's Senate Investigation of mail order weapons sales. Others on this thread might think it a purposeful derailing. I don't. I weigh in on the strong likelihood that Oswald did in fact order guns by mail using an alias, and since that makes no sense as part of a plan to actually kill someone it probably had another purpose. I don't think (sorry Sandy) that anyone can prove LHO did not order the rifle from Kleins based on common practice with Postal Orders. Mistakes can always account for shipping the wrong rifle or the lack of proper stamps on the money order.

The reason I chimed in here in support of Tommy's 'derailing' is that if we argue forever that he never ordered the rifle we give 'conspiracy theorists' a bad name, and Lance is thereby able to label us religious zealots. And most importantly, we lose the opportunity to take a closer look at Senator Dodd. How interesting is it that he was close to Hoover, and close to the American Security Council (sure didn't know that, but it puts him real close to some very virulent people), and that his Senate Internal Security Subcommittee was involved with William Pawley and Operation Red Cross. We thereby bump straight into Otto Otepka, who was in cahoots with this subcommittee and also on the outs with the Kennedy clan, and just so happened to be following closely the false defector programs and apparently LHO in particular.

Why can't the brains here, the intrepid researchers, put some energy into this angle? It seems much more fruitful than arguing about the dos and donts of postal money orders circa 1963. I think it was Peter Dale Scott who first speculated about Thomas Dodd. I have been unable online to penetrate further into the latter day Senate Internal Security Subcommittee. Easier in the early days of McCarthy.

Jim - you have done such great in depth research over the years on so many angles. What do you think of this angle, and what do you know? Are you in the camp that LHO never ordered any guns?

Paul,

After having gotten some well-needed sleep, and being able to think more clearly, I have had a change of heart. I said earlier that I applaud you for researching the line of thought you lay out above. You are free to do whatever you want, of course. But I think you'll likely be wasting your time. I would urge you to study what is known about the rifle purchase before spending a lot of time on this new line of thinking. There are just so many irregularities with the rifle purchase that it's hard to believe they can all be explained away as mere coincidences.

I post this comment primarily to publicly reverse my earlier comment to you.

Edited January 16, 2016 by Sandy Larsen

[Thomas Graves]

Tommy - Thanks for bringing up the Thomas Dodd's Senate Investigation of mail order weapons sales. Others on this thread might think it a purposeful derailing. I don't. I weigh in on the strong likelihood that Oswald did in fact order guns by mail using an alias, and since that makes no sense as part of a plan to actually kill someone it probably had another purpose. I don't think (sorry Sandy) that anyone can prove LHO did not order the rifle from Kleins based on common practice with Postal Orders. Mistakes can always account for shipping the wrong rifle or the lack of proper stamps on the money order.

The reason I chimed in here in support of Tommy's 'derailing' is that if we argue forever that he never ordered the rifle we give 'conspiracy theorists' a bad name, and Lance is thereby able to label us religious zealots. And most importantly, we lose the opportunity to take a closer look at Senator Dodd. How interesting is it that he was close to Hoover, and close to the American Security Council (sure didn't know that, but it puts him real close to some very virulent people), and that his Senate Internal Security Subcommittee was involved with William Pawley and Operation Red Cross. We thereby bump straight into Otto Otepka, who was in cahoots with this subcommittee and also on the outs with the Kennedy clan, and just so happened to be following closely the false defector programs and apparently LHO in particular.

Why can't the brains here, the intrepid researchers, put some energy into this angle? It seems much more fruitful than arguing about the dos and donts of postal money orders circa 1963. I think it was Peter Dale Scott who first speculated about Thomas Dodd. I have been unable online to penetrate further into the latter day Senate Internal Security Subcommittee. Easier in the early days of McCarthy.

Jim - you have done such great in depth research over the years on so many angles. What do you think of this angle, and what do you know? Are you in the camp that LHO never ordered any guns?

Paul,

After having gotten some well-needed sleep, and being able to think more clearly, I have had a change of heart. I said earlier that I applaud you for researching the line of thought you lay out above. You are free to do whatever you want, of course. But I think you'll likely be wasting your time. I would urge you to study what is known about the rifle purchase before spending a lot of time on this new line of thinking. There are just so many irregularities with the rifle purchase that it's hard to believe they can all be explained away as mere coincidences.

I post this comment primarily to reverse my earlier comment to you.

Sandy,

Have you changed your mind back again ... yet?

Don't feel bad.

I do it all the time.

Let this attempt at humor serve as a "bump" of Paul B.'s excellent response.

-- Tommy

Edited August 29, 2016 by Thomas Graves

[Thomas Graves]

Tommy - Thanks for bringing up the Thomas Dodd's Senate Investigation of mail order weapons sales. Others on this thread might think it a purposeful derailing. I don't. I weigh in on the strong likelihood that Oswald did in fact order guns by mail using an alias, and since that makes no sense as part of a plan to actually kill someone it probably had another purpose. I don't think (sorry Sandy) that anyone can prove LHO did not order the rifle from Kleins based on common practice with Postal Orders. Mistakes can always account for shipping the wrong rifle or the lack of proper stamps on the money order.

The reason I chimed in here in support of Tommy's 'derailing' is that if we argue forever that he never ordered the rifle we give 'conspiracy theorists' a bad name, and Lance is thereby able to label us religious zealots. And most importantly, we lose the opportunity to take a closer look at Senator Dodd. How interesting is it that he was close to Hoover, and close to the American Security Council (sure didn't know that, but it puts him real close to some very virulent people), and that his Senate Internal Security Subcommittee was involved with William Pawley and Operation Red Cross. We thereby bump straight into Otto Otepka, who was in cahoots with this subcommittee and also on the outs with the Kennedy clan, and just so happened to be following closely the false defector programs and apparently LHO in particular.

Why can't the brains here, the intrepid researchers, put some energy into this angle? It seems much more fruitful than arguing about the dos and donts of postal money orders circa 1963. I think it was Peter Dale Scott who first speculated about Thomas Dodd. I have been unable online to penetrate further into the latter day Senate Internal Security Subcommittee. Easier in the early days of McCarthy.

Jim - you have done such great in depth research over the years on so many angles. What do you think of this angle, and what do you know? Are you in the camp that LHO never ordered any guns?

Paul B.,

Excellent post. I had forgotten (or didn't even know) a lot of the "details" you mention.

There's so much to research in the JFK assassination case, and so little time.

Just a thought -- Wouldn't it really be something if Gerry Patrick Hemming was telling the truth when he said he enticed Oswald into bringing the rifle to the TSBD on or right before 11/22/63, on the pretense of wanting to buy it for twice what Oswald had paid for it?

Boy, that would really be something.

But I suppose that begs the question: Why would Hemming implicate himself like that?

--Tommy

bumped

[Paul Brancato]

So I guess it boils down to 3 choices. LHO ordered the rifle for his own purposes and on his own. Oswald ordered the rifle as part of some other covert operation. Oswald never ordered the rifle at all.

[Thomas Graves]

So I guess it boils down to 3 choices. LHO ordered the rifle for his own purposes and on his own. Oswald ordered the rifle as part of some other covert operation. Oswald never ordered the rifle at all.

See below.

Edited August 30, 2016 by Thomas Graves

[Thomas Graves]

So I guess it boils down to 3 choices. LHO ordered the rifle for his own purposes and on his own. Oswald ordered the rifle as part of some other covert operation. Oswald never ordered the rifle at all.

See below.

Edited August 30, 2016 by Thomas Graves

[Thomas Graves]

So I guess it boils down to 3 choices. LHO ordered the rifle for his own purposes and on his own. Oswald ordered the rifle as part of some other covert operation. Oswald never ordered the rifle at all.

Paul,

Yep. I guess that about sums it up. Except there are two possibilities for the second one. I.E., Oswald was either witting of the other covert operation, or he was unwitting of it.

I'm going with the former of those two because it helps to simplify things AND to answer otherwise difficult (if LHO truly was innocent of assassinating JFK) questions, like why did he buy mail order guns in the first place, and why did he order them in the fictitious name of "Hidell," etc?

Along that line of thought, the only reason I can think of for Hemmings' "implicating himself" in the scenario I mentioned earlier is that he was probably bragging and he knew he could get away with it. He must have known that he had a reputation as a "bullxxxxter," and regardless, that his self-incriminating allegation would be hard for others to prove.

If so, he was right, as indicated by the fact that when Hemming did tell Weberman that, many years after the assassination, the only people who paid any attention to it were a few of us Crazy Conspiracy Theorists.

-- Tommy

bumped so soon because I've just EDITED it

Edited August 30, 2016 by Thomas Graves

[Thomas Graves]

Tommy - Thanks for bringing up the Thomas Dodd's Senate Investigation of mail order weapons sales. Others on this thread might think it a purposeful derailing. I don't. I weigh in on the strong likelihood that Oswald did in fact order guns by mail using an alias, and since that makes no sense as part of a plan to actually kill someone it probably had another purpose. I don't think (sorry Sandy) that anyone can prove LHO did not order the rifle from Kleins based on common practice with Postal Orders. Mistakes can always account for shipping the wrong rifle or the lack of proper stamps on the money order.

The reason I chimed in here in support of Tommy's 'derailing' is that if we argue forever that he never ordered the rifle we give 'conspiracy theorists' a bad name, and Lance is thereby able to label us religious zealots. And most importantly, we lose the opportunity to take a closer look at Senator Dodd. How interesting is it that he was close to Hoover, and close to the American Security Council (sure didn't know that, but it puts him real close to some very virulent people), and that his Senate Internal Security Subcommittee was involved with William Pawley and Operation Red Cross. We thereby bump straight into Otto Otepka, who was in cahoots with this subcommittee and also on the outs with the Kennedy clan, and just so happened to be following closely the false defector programs and apparently LHO in particular.

Why can't the brains here, the intrepid researchers, put some energy into this angle? It seems much more fruitful than arguing about the dos and donts of postal money orders circa 1963. I think it was Peter Dale Scott who first speculated about Thomas Dodd. I have been unable online to penetrate further into the latter day Senate Internal Security Subcommittee. Easier in the early days of McCarthy.

Jim - you have done such great in depth research over the years on so many angles. What do you think of this angle, and what do you know? Are you in the camp that LHO never ordered any guns?

Bumped