PRAYER PERSON - PRAYER MAN OR PRAYER WOMAN? RESEARCH THREAD

[Bill Miller]

1 hour ago, Thomas Graves said:

Dear Bill,

The fact that no one on the steps remembers anyone's being there invalidates your argument, IMHO. In my mind there's not much difference between their not noticing / remembering a complete stranger and their not noticing / remembering a relative newcomer like Oswald, especially if the stranger or Oswald kinda snuck out the front door onto the landing right before the motorcade passed by. 

I guess I think like an investigative devils advocate. People who didn't know Oswald well enough to recognize him may not have paid attention to what this person looked like. Those that knew Lee and what he looked like isn't so likely not to have seen him. Truly obviously knew what Lee looked like, as well as Frazier and they didn't see him because he was not there with them.

And those that didn't know him personally would certainly know who he was by the evening of the assassination so to jar their memory to recall  'hey - that is the guy that was standing outside as we filled past him.'

After the shots, people on the steps would have been even less likely to "see" him there because their attention would have been focused elsewhere.

Prayer Man is there in the corner as people were walking up the stairs to get back into the building.

And wasn't there one female TSBD employee who thought she mighta seen him kinda lurking in the lobby a few minutes before the assassination?

There was certainly someone who saw him eating in the lunchroom just prior to the shooting. As for anyone else - you would have to supply the name of such a witness who saw Lee hanging out in the lobby.

--  Tommy

 

I answered your remarks within your the quote in red letters

[Thomas Graves]

1 hour ago, Bill Miller said:

I answered your remarks within your the quote in red letters

Dear Bill

I'm not surprised that the people on the steps in Couch / Darnell, in the hustle and bustle and excitement of the moment to eat their lunch, get to a telephone and / or get out of a perceived crossfire, all those people, concentrating as they were on where to put their feet as they climbed the steps as they filed past Prayer Man. failed to notice Oswald or a complete stranger (whichever one you prefer) standing / leaning in the corner.

--  Tommy

Edited December 24, 2016 by Thomas Graves

[Bill Miller]

5 hours ago, Thomas Graves said:

Dear Bill

I'm not surprised that the people on the steps in Couch / Darnell, in the hustle and bustle and excitement of the moment to eat their lunch, get to a telephone and / or get out of a perceived crossfire, all those people, concentrating as they were on where to put their feet as they climbed the steps as they filed past Prayer Man. failed to notice Oswald or a complete stranger (whichever one you prefer) standing / leaning in the corner.

--  Tommy

But not all those people who were standing there at the time the incident occurred. There may have been shots heard by those near the doorway, but no one really knew for certain what had occurred. Some thought shots - some thought fireworks were thrown - some though backfires from moving vehicles. And even once word spread that shots had been fired - it took a while before anyone knew the President had been killed in the attack. So like so many people who have said this this over the past 53 years - I remember where I was - what I was doing - and who I was with when JFK was assassinated. That poor image of the doorway does not equate to that being Oswald there on many levels in my mind. It's not even an arguable point except to those who have an invested interested in wanting it to be so.

Cheers!

[Sandy Larsen]

4 hours ago, Bill Miller said:

[That Prayer Man is Oswald is] not even an arguable point except to those who have an invested interested in wanting it to be so.

You're certainly wrong on that point, Bill. In spite of what you may think, there ARE objective people here who believe it is possible Prayer Man is Oswald. I am one of them. I have absolutely NO desire for Prayer Man to be Oswald... I am after only the truth. I would hate for it to be wrongly declared that PM and Oswald are one and the same.

I'm sure that there are those who do hope PM is Oswald. But I'll bet that most of them would also condemn an inaccurate identification.

P.S. While I have no desire for PM to be Oswald, admittedly I do find the thought intriguing.

[Michael Walton]

Bill

There are way too many other issues that exonerate Oswald in this case to easily dismiss the man in the doorway. A few of those greatest hits are:

• The fake backyard photos which he denied, even understanding how they were made
• Ruth Paine steering him into the TSBD job
• Someone going around claiming to be him in the months leading up to 11/22 making outlandish claims so they'd remember him on 11/22
• The impostor in Mexico City claiming to be him
• His intelligence background
• Getting him to hand out leftist leaflets and get into a fight in NO, all for the benefit of TV cameras - how convenient
• The throwdown wallet at the Tippit murder scene

...and my favorites.  The guy was supposed to be a "dumb" laborer but even he knew what the word "patsy" meant.  I guarantee you that my parents, who were also laborers and watched everything on 11/22, had no idea what that word even meant.  But he knew, and it was becoming very, very clear to him as the weekend progressed up to his own silencing on 11/24 that he was being set up.

...and his own statement "out front with Shelley."

I'm not saying the above events suddenly prove that the man in the doorway was him.  But on the other hand, this was not some Tim McVeigh type planning this for months.  And this was not some innocent or random event that the government wants everyone to believe.

All of us here argue the merits of everything about the case here - from the Z film to PM.  Some of us buy into things and some of us don't.  But the PM idea is not just some silly idea - *someone* was standing there that day and with all of the other very hard work that Bart and others put into it, especially their spreadsheet showing where everyone who worked in the building was, is especially convincing.

Personally, I'll admit I was wrong that the Altgens Oswald man was actually Lovelady, but I do believe now that PM is Oswald.  I can imagine he was told to stay inside and wait for a phone call (maybe there was a wall phone or something like that).  When the s##t hit the fan, like most humans, he ventured out to see what was up where his image was captured by the news follow up cameras.

It's your right to argue the merits of PM but not easy to dismiss the other things listed above and more.  If you do, then you might as well believe that LHO was up on the 6th floor performing one of the most incredible bits of marksmanship in world history, and doing so all by himself. And then you'd also have to believe that concerned citizen Jack Ruby, acting out of concern for poor, dear Jackie Kennedy, randomly and on impulse decided to gun down in front of the entire Dallas police force the dastardly murderer of our president.

Finally, you'd then also have to believe that Johnson, Hoover and all of their ilk had their heads bowed and shedding a tear for their dear leader who was gunned down in broad daylight, and then decide to honestly aqnd vigorously pursue the full and total truth of what happened.

And then, purely for fun here, and as sort of a trivia question - who was the "I didn't know I shouldn't have done that" Hillary Clinton moment in this whole mess in 1963? If you think about what I'm saying here - how a person with great power basically got away with abusing the security of a government agency, where if I or you had done it, our a@@es would have been on the street and in jail - what was the other "Hillary" moment in 1963?

Edited December 24, 2016 by Michael Walton
updated

[Michael Walton]

P.S. While I have no desire for PM to be Oswald, admittedly I do find the thought intriguing.

That has to be one of the odder statements I've ever read from Sandy Larsen.

[Sandy Larsen]

30 minutes ago, Michael Walton said:

Sandy Larsen said: P.S. While I have no desire for PM to be Oswald, admittedly I do find the thought intriguing.

That has to be one of the odder statements I've ever read from Sandy Larsen.

Michael,

The phrase I've highlighted in red is nuanced and should be read in context to be understood. But allow me explain it here:

If someone desires PM to be Oswald, that person has a bias. I pride myself on being objective and not having a bias on something till it is proven to my satisfaction to be factual.

I don't believe it has been proven that PM is Oswald. Therefore I remain unbiased on the topic.

Does that make sense to you?

(P.S. I do believe that the odds of PM being Oswald are fairly high... 70% to 80%.)

[Michael Walton]

Sandy - yes, it makes sense.  Thanks for clarifying.

[Bill Miller]

3 hours ago, Michael Walton said:

Bill

There are way too many other issues that exonerate Oswald in this case to easily dismiss the man in the doorway. A few of those greatest hits are:

• The fake backyard photos which he denied, even understanding how they were made
• Ruth Paine steering him into the TSBD job
• Someone going around claiming to be him in the months leading up to 11/22 making outlandish claims so they'd remember him on 11/22
• The impostor in Mexico City claiming to be him
• His intelligence background
• Getting him to hand out leftist leaflets and get into a fight in NO, all for the benefit of TV cameras - how convenient
• The throwdown wallet at the Tippit murder scene

...and my favorites.  The guy was supposed to be a "dumb" laborer but even he knew what the word "patsy" meant.  I guarantee you that my parents, who were also laborers and watched everything on 11/22, had no idea what that word even meant.  But he knew, and it was becoming very, very clear to him as the weekend progressed up to his own silencing on 11/24 that he was being set up.

...and his own statement "out front with Shelley."

I'm not saying the above events suddenly prove that the man in the doorway was him.  But on the other hand, this was not some Tim McVeigh type planning this for months.  And this was not some innocent or random event that the government wants everyone to believe.

All of us here argue the merits of everything about the case here - from the Z film to PM.  Some of us buy into things and some of us don't.  But the PM idea is not just some silly idea - *someone* was standing there that day and with all of the other very hard work that Bart and others put into it, especially their spreadsheet showing where everyone who worked in the building was, is especially convincing.

Personally, I'll admit I was wrong that the Altgens Oswald man was actually Lovelady, but I do believe now that PM is Oswald.  I can imagine he was told to stay inside and wait for a phone call (maybe there was a wall phone or something like that).  When the s##t hit the fan, like most humans, he ventured out to see what was up where his image was captured by the news follow up cameras.

It's your right to argue the merits of PM but not easy to dismiss the other things listed above and more.  If you do, then you might as well believe that LHO was up on the 6th floor performing one of the most incredible bits of marksmanship in world history, and doing so all by himself. And then you'd also have to believe that concerned citizen Jack Ruby, acting out of concern for poor, dear Jackie Kennedy, randomly and on impulse decided to gun down in front of the entire Dallas police force the dastardly murderer of our president.

Finally, you'd then also have to believe that Johnson, Hoover and all of their ilk had their heads bowed and shedding a tear for their dear leader who was gunned down in broad daylight, and then decide to honestly aqnd vigorously pursue the full and total truth of what happened.

And then, purely for fun here, and as sort of a trivia question - who was the "I didn't know I shouldn't have done that" Hillary Clinton moment in this whole mess in 1963? If you think about what I'm saying here - how a person with great power basically got away with abusing the security of a government agency, where if I or you had done it, our a@@es would have been on the street and in jail - what was the other "Hillary" moment in 1963?

You left out the find Lifton made that Lee's rifle was 4" shorter than the one in the National Archives being said to be the one found in the TSBD.

[Bill Miller]

6 hours ago, Sandy Larsen said:

You're certainly wrong on that point, Bill. In spite of what you may think, there ARE objective people here who believe it is possible Prayer Man is Oswald. I am one of them.

There are those who think it's possible that JFK's is still alive and being pushed around in a wheel-chair in the basement of the White House - so what is your point.

What I have said is that based on that poor unreliable image combined with the theory that Frazier - Molina - Truly and everyone else was somehow intimidated into not admitting Lee was on the steps in the Darnell film is utter speculation without the support of facts. It's often referred to as tabloid research. I am not saying to stop playing with the thought - I am only saying why I think its nonsense in this particular case based on what I have seen and that should not offend anyone.

Edited December 24, 2016 by Bill Miller

[Tom Hume]

Prayer Man is in the shade, and so is Wesley’s head and much of his torso. “Lee Harvey Oswald” anagrams to:

 

“YO, SHADE REVEAL L/W”

 

Prayer Man and Wesley are in the entrance way. “Lee Harvey Oswald” anagrams to:

 

“411 WAY, SHADE OVER L”

“YA, 411 SHADE OVER L/W”

 

(Number/Letter translation device at bottom of post)

 

Wesley appears much taller than Prayer Man. “Lee Harvey Oswald” anagrams to:

 

“411 DAY, A WES OVER LH”

“WES OVERHEAD, Y’ALL”

“WES HEAD OVER ALLY”

 

Lee’s name seems like an advertisement for how tall Wesley appears in the entrance way. “Lee Harvey Oswald” anagrams to:

 

“A WESLEY OVER LH AD”

 

Earlier that morning, Wesley drove Lee to work. “Lee Harvey Oswald” anagrams to:

 

“A WESLEY DROVE A LH”

“411 WES LOAD: HARVEY”

“WESLEY HAVE A L ROD”

 

It seems like many of the anagrams of Lee’s name have to do with Wes on 11/22. “Lee Harvey Oswald” anagrams to:

 

“LHO REVEAL WES DAY”

 

Reversing the above, “Lee Harvey Oswald” anagrams to:

 

“WES REVEAL LHO DAY”, but that hasn’t happened yet.

 

After leaving the TSBD, Lee went to the movies. “Lee Harvey Oswald” anagrams to:

 

“EVADE. YO, WAR’S HELL”

 

If Lee was the designated patsy for the assassination, and Lee was Prayer Man, then Lee was not where he was supposed to be at 12:30. “Lee Harvey Oswald” anagrams to:

 

“411 AWOL - VERY SHADY”

 

With a slight bit of tweaking, the above anagram of "Lee Harvey Oswald" becomes:

 

"A 411 LO/W - VERY SHADY"

 

“ICO” stands for “Igor”, “Case”, and, “Oswald”. According to my reading of the ICO puzzles, two civilians were recruited to help ICO prevent the assassination. One of them was Buell Wesley Frazier. If any of this is true, then Richard Case Nagell recruited Wesley and arranged for him to be put into position at the TSBD. Among other things, Wes was chosen because of where his sister lived, and the anagrams present in “Lee Harvey Oswald’s” name. 

 

ICO created an abundance of real-world events and enigmas surrounding the assassination that corresponded to naturally occurring anagrams within their own names. They did this for us, and this post is just a sample. I hope to have something more definitive when I finish my work on the 3-D Backyard Photos. “Lee Harvey Oswald” anagrams to:

 

“LHO SWAY REVEALED”

“L HEAD OVERLAY WES”

 

etc. 

 

Tom

 

(A=0)(B=1)(C=2)(D=3)(E=4)(F=5)(G=6)(H=7)(I=8)(J=9)(K=10)(L=11)(M=12)(N=13)(O=14)(P=15)(Q=16)(R=17)(S=18)(T=19)(U=20)(V=21)(W=22)(X=23)(Y=24)(Z=25)

 

Edited December 25, 2016 by Tom Hume

[Thomas Graves]

14 hours ago, Bill Miller said:

But not all those people who were standing there at the time the incident occurred. There may have been shots heard by those near the doorway, but no one really knew for certain what had occurred. Some thought shots - some thought fireworks were thrown - some though backfires from moving vehicles. And even once word spread that shots had been fired - it took a while before anyone knew the President had been killed in the attack. So like so many people who have said this this over the past 53 years - I remember where I was - what I was doing - and who I was with when JFK was assassinated. That poor image of the doorway does not equate to that being Oswald there on many levels in my mind. It's not even an arguable point except to those who have an invested interested in wanting it to be so.

Cheers!

 

Exactly, Bill.

As we can see in Couch / Darnell, twenty seconds or so after the assassination lots of people, whether or not they were standing on the steps during the shooting, are running and walking towards and up the steps.  IIRC, almost everyone on the steps and elsewhere in Dealy Plaza had heard and (recognized as such) some shots, and many had no clear idea where they had come from. Even more reason for TSBD empoyees on the steps or close to them to take refuge inside the building and not "see" a complete stranger or Oswald, standing / leaning against the wall back there in the corner as they hurried inside.

-- Tommy

Edited December 24, 2016 by Thomas Graves

[Bill Miller]

But those who knew him would have known better - those standing there and seeing him would have known better - and some of those people who saw his face on TV would have remembered seeing him on the steps. The mass conspiracy of intimidation not to speak up for Oswald wasn't said to be just for those who didn't know him, but those who did as well. and that theory is just plain ... 

[Sandy Larsen]

16 hours ago, Bill Miller said:

[That Prayer Man is Oswald is] not even an arguable point except to those who have an invested interested in wanting it to be so.

 

11 hours ago, Sandy Larsen said:

You're certainly wrong on that point, Bill. In spite of what you may think, there ARE objective people here who believe it is possible Prayer Man is Oswald. I am one of them. I have absolutely NO desire for Prayer Man to be Oswald... I am after only the truth. I would hate for it to be wrongly declared that PM and Oswald are one and the same.

 

4 hours ago, Bill Miller said:

There are those who think it's possible that JFK's is still alive and being pushed around in a wheel-chair in the basement of the White House - so what is your point.

My point is that the following statement you made misrepresents my position (and likely others' as well):

"[That Prayer Man is Oswald is] not even an arguable point except to those who have an invested interested in wanting it to be so."

As I explained in my reply, I don't "have an invested interested in wanting it to be so." I don't have ANY interest in wanting it to be so. And yet I believe it is "an arguable point."

Therefore, your statement misrepresents my position. And thus is factually incorrect.

I'm sure that you would similarly object if I were to misrepresent your position. For example, if I were to say that nobody disputes that Prayer man might be Oswald. You've made it abundantly clear that you do dispute that.

[Bill Miller]

My point was my opinion based on the evidence. That in my mind to claim that 'Prayer Man' is Oswald - one must conclude that a mass conspiracy to withhold information was immediately hatched among all the witnesses who saw Lee on or around the steps of the TSBD during and/or immediately post shooting for that to have occurred. To coin a phrase that Simpson lawyer 'Barry Scheck' used to say - "That doesn't even pass the laugh test" ......... and is why it is my opinion that it takes an invested interest in wanting LHO to be there to accept that theory.