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PRAYER PERSON - PRAYER MAN OR PRAYER WOMAN? RESEARCH THREAD


Guest Duncan MacRae

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Hello Michael, - I like your video. There are some interesting moments in it that were novel to me, in particular the point that Umbrella man lifted his umbrella to capture President's attention...


Hi Andrej - glad you like the video. I always try to not get too carried away with theories but I agree I do think it was just either a huge coincidence about the umbrella, and also the tall black guy that was standing near the umbrella guy, or something more sinister.


After the shots, they both stood around, calmly sat down on the curb (near each other) and then walked away going in opposite directions. They had a great view of Kennedy's head blowing up so at the least, you'd think they'd react to that but they don't appear to have.


I've read some pretty crazy theories about how the umbrella shot darts or whatnot. In my mind, that didn't happen because what if a dart had fired and hit the Governor, or a SS agent, or Jackie? The risk of exposure would have been enormous. And I think because the planners knew that they had more than enough coverage to kill Kennedy, it'd be overkill to have a guy standing there firing darts from an umbrella.


Still, having two people there - the umbrella guy and black guy - of all places just seems peculiar to say the least. If you watch the black guy, he's almost acting as if he's signaling something rather than waving or clapping because he's happy to see the limo. He's got his arm straight up in the air rather than folded to say, "Hi!" or that kind of behavior.


Anyway, hope your 3D animation is coming along. I built a 3D animation of Dealey Plaza but I'm going to put it on hold and work on other JFK things, especially my pet project of showing how the Zapruder film is not a fake :)


If you're interested I could send you the SU file and you can take a look at it if you want. If you're interested send me a PM and we'll work it out.
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Andrej,

FWIW, I also believe Altgen 6 has been altered. Even though it was released early and would have had to be altered quickly, I still believe it was altered. It's hard to believe that officials would release a photo that needed altering, but I still believe it's been altered.

I believe it's been altered because:

  1. Lovelady's right shoulder is not all there. It simply doesn't look right.
  2. Regarding the fellow with the tie standing behind and to Lovelady's right, it very much appears that his image has been pasted there. Parts of him appear to be covering parts of Lovelady, like Lovelady's shoulder and even part of his cheek. Lovelady's left cheek shouldn't have a darker, shadow-like area there. (Nor a bright white area, which is also what I see on the Altgen6 I have. Not sure it's on all Altgen 6s.)
  3. So it looks like the guy's image was pasted there, and then someone attempted to blend it in with a pencil. I've seen similar things like this done before. It's pre-photoshop "technology."

Of course, if the image of the man was pasted there, there had to have been a reason for doing so. What I've wondered is if Prayer Man could be Oswald, and if Oswald may have been visible in Altgen 6 to the side and behind Lovelady. If so, PM would have had to have been near the center of the entrance-way at that time Altgen 6 was shot.

Anyway, I thought I'd mention this. If for no other reason than to give you encouragement on your Altgen 6 work.

Good luck!

Sandy I believe you are wrong about Lovelady's shoulder. I'm sure you meant his left shoulder rather than his right. He is leaning forward at an angle similar to the guy in this photo.

Leaning_zpshcm7ffiu.jpg

Altgensprint_zps6edfc418.jpg

Ray,

The white-haired guy you show leaning over is doing so in a way completely different than Lovelady. Regardless, using him as an example actually supports what I am saying. He still has a left shoulder, Lovelady doesn't. Because the Tie Man cut-out has been hastily pasted over Lovelady's left shoulder. Not to mention also over part of Lovelady's left cheek.

Edited by Sandy Larsen
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Sandy - FWIW, I also believe Altgen 6 has been altered. Even though it was released early and would have had to be altered quickly, I still believe it was altered. It's hard to believe that officials would release a photo that needed altering, but I still believe it's been altered.


Sandy - I really don't think it was altered. As you say above, it was shown on live TV Friday night (I think by Cronkite).


Here is the reverse negative of the photo:


normal_Altgens6fullframe.jpg


Think about it - how would they even know what to cover up that early in the game? I can imagine Altgens going to some photo lab, getting his roll developed, probably hanging out elsewhere to maybe take more photos (or maybe not), calling into his boss to report in, giving the photos to the newswires, and then the photo is broadcast to the world.


And look at the above photo. With no digital technology, and with not knowing what to alter anyway, I think there was no need to alter the photo.

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Still believe you are wrong, Sandy. This is a better version of Lovelady.

altgen6_zpsdz8efvzr.jpg

Notice how Lovelady is leaning at an angle around the corner of the buttress. to follow the limo.

I'd love to see somebody replicate Lovelady's pose. I'd also love to see an explanation for the black line across Lovelady's left cheek that extends on over to Black Tie Man.

BTW, somebody has painted black that triangular area that is Black Tie Man's right shoulder, just to our right of Lovelady's neck. It's obvious if you load the photo into a photo editor and zoom way in. I've never noticed that before, so I believe it is a recent edit. Don't know why it was done.

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Still believe you are wrong, Sandy. This is a better version of Lovelady.

altgen6_zpsdz8efvzr.jpg

Notice how Lovelady is leaning at an angle around the corner of the buttress. to follow the limo.

I'd love to see somebody replicate Lovelady's pose. I'd also love to see an explanation for the black line across Lovelady's left cheek that extends on over to Black Tie Man.

BTW, somebody has painted black that triangular area that is Black Tie Man's right shoulder, just to our right of Lovelady's neck. It's obvious if you load the photo into a photo editor and zoom way in. I've never noticed that before, so I believe it is a recent edit. Don't know why it was done.

It was my edit to show the lean of Lovely. If he isn't leaning, perhaps you could explain why the right side of his t shirt is vertical and the left side isn't

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Sandy - FWIW, I also believe Altgen 6 has been altered. Even though it was released early and would have had to be altered quickly, I still believe it was altered. It's hard to believe that officials would release a photo that needed altering, but I still believe it's been altered.
Sandy - I really don't think it was altered. As you say above, it was shown on live TV Friday night (I think by Cronkite).
Here is the reverse negative of the photo:
normal_Altgens6fullframe.jpg
Think about it - how would they even know what to cover up that early in the game? I can imagine Altgens going to some photo lab, getting his roll developed, probably hanging out elsewhere to maybe take more photos (or maybe not), calling into his boss to report in, giving the photos to the newswires, and then the photo is broadcast to the world.
And look at the above photo. With no digital technology, and with not knowing what to alter anyway, I think there was no need to alter the photo.

I agree totally with you, Michael.

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Andrej,

FWIW, I also believe Altgen 6 has been altered. Even though it was released early and would have had to be altered quickly, I still believe it was altered. It's hard to believe that officials would release a photo that needed altering, but I still believe it's been altered.

I believe it's been altered because:

  1. Lovelady's right shoulder is not all there. It simply doesn't look right.
  2. Regarding the fellow with the tie standing behind and to Lovelady's right, it very much appears that his image has been pasted there. Parts of him appear to be covering parts of Lovelady, like Lovelady's shoulder and even part of his cheek. Lovelady's left cheek shouldn't have a darker, shadow-like area there. (Nor a bright white area, which is also what I see on the Altgen6 I have. Not sure it's on all Altgen 6s.)
  3. So it looks like the guy's image was pasted there, and then someone attempted to blend it in with a pencil. I've seen similar things like this done before. It's pre-photoshop "technology."

Of course, if the image of the man was pasted there, there had to have been a reason for doing so. What I've wondered is if Prayer Man could be Oswald, and if Oswald may have been visible in Altgen 6 to the side and behind Lovelady. If so, PM would have had to have been near the center of the entrance-way at that time Altgen 6 was shot.

Anyway, I thought I'd mention this. If for no other reason than to give you encouragement on your Altgen 6 work.

Good luck!

"Lovelady's shoulder ... simply doesn't look right."

"it very much appears that his image has been pasted there."

"it looks like the guy's image was pasted there"

There's nothing wrong with a bit of healthy speculation, but this is just uninformed guesswork. How, exactly, does Lovelady's shoulder not look right? Detailed measurements would be helpful.

Two points need to be made. Firstly, it is a serious mistake to attribute any visual discrepancies to manipulation when a perfectly innocent explanation exists. A poor-quality reproduction of a photograph will normally contain all sorts of anomalies that don't exist in the original image. If you are looking at a reproduction that is several generations removed from the original, there is every reason to suppose that features such as vaguely strange-looking shoulders are due solely to the physical process of copying the image, then copying the copy, and copying the copy of the copy, and so on.

Secondly, it is not enough simply to make assertions. Rather than blithely stating that "even though it was released early and would have had to be altered quickly, I still believe it was altered," you really need to show how any alterations could have been made in the time available. The Altgens photograph was distributed just 33 minutes after it was taken. Any alterations must have been made during this time, but it is difficult to see how this was possible:

- James Altgens made his way from Dealey Plaza to the Dallas Morning News building, where he handed his film to a technician;

- the film was developed, washed, fixed, washed again and dried;

- prints were exposed, developed, fixed, washed and dried;

- one print was chosen, and a caption added to it;

- finally, the print was scanned and transmitted.

Anyone with experience of photographic development and printing will know that doing all of this in just 33 minutes was quite an achievement. How much time was left over for altering the image? One minute? A few seconds? How, exactly, could any alterations have been made in the time available? Come to that, exactly what alterations were made, and for exactly what purpose? How did the unnamed manipulators decide, within a few minutes of the assassination, what alterations needed to be made? Did they follow Altgens to the Dallas Morning News photo lab, or were they hiding in the darkroom all along, just on the off-chance? If they wanted to remove whatever incriminating evidence was contained within the Altgens photograph, why didn't they simply destroy the film? Why didn't they bother themselves with any of the other people whose photographs and films captured the entrance to the book depository?

I'm sorry for stamping on what must have seemed like a harmless piece of speculation, but doubting the integrity of the Altgens photograph has an unfortunate history which, either deliberately or accidentally, made critics of the official account of the assassination look like a bunch of raving lunatics. I go into this in more detail here:

http://22november1963.org.uk/oswald-on-tsbd-front-steps

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- James Altgens made his way from Dealey Plaza to the Dallas Morning News building, where he handed his film to a technician;

- the film was developed, washed, fixed, washed again and dried;

- prints were exposed, developed, fixed, washed and dried;

- one print was chosen, and a caption added to it;

- finally, the print was scanned and transmitted.


In my previous post, I was not sure what Altgens's whereabouts were after he took the photo. Your above timeline certainly confirms that it was next to impossible to have faked the photo.


Returning to the topic of this thread (PM) I think there is far more valuable info related to the case with PM than the Altgens photo. At least for me, the Altgens photo confirms that Lovelady was in an awkward pose when he leaned over to view the motorcade down Elm Street as seen in the Weigman film and Altgens #6.
Edited by Michael Walton
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Still believe you are wrong, Sandy. This is a better version of Lovelady.

altgen6_zpsdz8efvzr.jpg

Notice how Lovelady is leaning at an angle around the corner of the buttress. to follow the limo.

I'd love to see somebody replicate Lovelady's pose. I'd also love to see an explanation for the black line across Lovelady's left cheek that extends on over to Black Tie Man.

BTW, somebody has painted black that triangular area that is Black Tie Man's right shoulder, just to our right of Lovelady's neck. It's obvious if you load the photo into a photo editor and zoom way in. I've never noticed that before, so I believe it is a recent edit. Don't know why it was done.

It was my edit to show the lean of Lovely. If he isn't leaning, perhaps you could explain why the right side of his t shirt is vertical and the left side isn't

I agree, Lovelady is leaning. I've always recognized that.

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Secondly, it is not enough simply to make assertions. Rather than blithely stating that "even though it was released early and would have had to be altered quickly, I still believe it was altered," you really need to show how any alterations could have been made in the time available.

I would need to do that if I were trying to make a case for my opinion.

But I'm not doing that. I'm just stating my opinion.

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- James Altgens made his way from Dealey Plaza to the Dallas Morning News building, where he handed his film to a technician;
- the film was developed, washed, fixed, washed again and dried;
- prints were exposed, developed, fixed, washed and dried;
- one print was chosen, and a caption added to it;
- finally, the print was scanned and transmitted.
In my previous post, I was not sure what Altgens's whereabouts were after he took the photo. Your above timeline certainly confirms that it was next to impossible to have faked the photo.
Returning to the topic of this thread (PM) I think there is far more valuable info related to the case with PM than the Altgens photo. At least for me, the Altgens photo confirms that Lovelady was in an awkward pose when he leaned over to view the motorcade down Elm Street as seen in the Weigman film and Altgens #6.

Michael,

Can you show me where I can see Lovelady in that awkward pose in Weigman or any other film or still? I haven't noticed it when looking at other clips.

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Sandy - here you go...

Wiegman%2Band%2BAltgens.jpg

Thanks Michael.

I can't tell if Lovelady in the left photo is standing at an angle or if the shadow hitting him is at an angle, thus making it look like he's at an angle.

In the Altgens 6 photo I imagine he is leaning on the handrail.

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I agree - my hunch is that he was leaning on the handrail. In the next image from the film it looks like he quickly decides to look up Houston Street toward the camera filming. Remarkably, PM appears to still be in the same position he was in the earlier image but just lowers his arm

Steps_1.gif

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