PRAYER PERSON - PRAYER MAN OR PRAYER WOMAN? RESEARCH THREAD

[Andrej Stancak]

Something to think about. If PM was holding a Coke bottle, it would be held vertically in front of him. When he raised it to drink, it would be held horizontally. Wouldn't we see a rather longish glowing reflection when it was vertical, and a roundish glowing reflection, when we were looking only at the round base of the Coke bottle?

Robert, this is a good point. It depends on the volume of the fluid remaining in the bottle. If there was some half or third of volume remaining, the bottle could have been tilted, whilst in the position in front of Prayer Man's chest, just enough to expose the bottom of the bottle to the sun light.

Seriously, Andrej? Do you hold a bottle of Coke tilted on its side when it's out in front of you?

Robert, did you actually read my brief comment? It says that one can tilt a bottle if it is not full.

[Ray Mitcham]

If it was a camera and it was Oswald, what happened to the camera subsequently?

[Sandy Larsen]

If it was a camera and it was Oswald, what happened to the camera subsequently?

Good question. Either nobody knows or nobody is talking.

P.S. Your white mug idea is not bad.

[Michael Walton]

SANDY - And frankly I am offended by your saying these things. As well as for your patronizing attitude when you try to school me on the dangers of posting things you consider silly. They may look silly to you, but that doesn't make them so.

Sandy,

It was not my intention to upset you. Even though I try to err on the side of caution in the JFK case, I've seen my share of eye-rolling when I try to explain the basic facts of the case - that he was assassinated by a conspiracy; that Oswald was set up to take the fall; and so on.

The folks who did the initial PM work did a great job IMO. Despite what Gilbride said earlier in this post, the basic similarities of who PM looks like - Oswald - as well as the accounting of where all of the employees were has convinced me that it certainly is LHO. But then when folks start trying to analyze and declare that a cluster of pixels in a very grainy photo is a camera, or a bottle, or a reflection, then it starts getting a little silly. I, and newbies out there, would be much more impressed with the work that Andrej is doing with his 3D animation than trying to declare a cluster of pixels is a camera or a bottle.

So my last post's point was the *perception* of newbies visiting EF and calling us a bunch of crazies. It was not my intention to make you think I was calling you one.

Edited May 14, 2016 by Michael Walton

[Sandy Larsen]

SANDY - And frankly I am offended by your saying these things. As well as for your patronizing attitude when you try to school me on the dangers of posting things you consider silly. They may look silly to you, but that doesn't make them so.

Sandy,

It was not my intention to upset you. Even though I try to err on the side of caution in the JFK case, I've seen my share of eye-rolling when I try to explain the basic facts of the case - that he was assassinated by a conspiracy; that Oswald was set up to take the fall; and so on.

The folks who did the initial PM work did a great job IMO. Despite what Gilbride said earlier in this post, the basic similarities of who PM looks like - Oswald - as well as the accounting of where all of the employees were has convinced me that it certainly is LHO. But then when folks start trying to analyze and declare that a cluster of pixels in a very grainy photo is a camera, or a bottle, or a reflection, then it starts getting a little silly. I, and newbies out there, would be much more impressed with the work that Andrej is doing with his 3D animation than trying to declare a cluster of pixels is a camera or a bottle.

So my last post's point was the *perception* of newbies visiting EF and calling us a bunch of crazies. It was not my intention to make you think I was calling you one.

Michael,

I am now getting the impression that you're not reading my posts... the very ones you've responded to.

You are again pointing out that the low resolution of the photo does not provide enough information to determine what PM is holding. Yes that is true, but that has nothing to do with my analysis. My analysis has to do with the way PM is handling the object. And what kinds of objects are likely to be handled that way.

Second, in your reply here you say that it wasn't your intention to call me a crazy. Yes, I know that wasn't your intention, and that isn't what I objected to. What I objected to was your accusation that a couple of my posts were, in your words, "....starting to make the CT community look like a bunch of kooks (like the UFO/fake moon landing believers)." And that this "....really takes away from all of the wonderful work that people such as Mark Lane (RIP) and others have done."

What you wrote was very offensive. And unwarranted.

Edited May 14, 2016 by Sandy Larsen

[Chris Davidson]

If it was a camera and it was Oswald, what happened to the camera subsequently?

Good question. Either nobody knows or nobody is talking.

P.S. Your white mug idea is not bad.

Assume that Lovelady had the white object in hand and he raised it up.

Where/how high does the white object get raised to in relation to Lovelady's face? i.e. eyes, forehead, nose

[Sandy Larsen]

If it was a camera and it was Oswald, what happened to the camera subsequently?

Good question. Either nobody knows or nobody is talking.

P.S. Your white mug idea is not bad.

Assume that Lovelady had the white object in hand and he raised it up.

Where/how high does the white object get raised to in relation to Lovelady's face? i.e. eyes, forehead, nose

Chris, you're a genius! You've done it again.

I'll take your challenge, when I find a little time. I think it will be enlightening.

[Guest]

Lovelady was leaning against the railing while Prayer Man was drinking, Doyle's and Gilbride's theory was just bunk!

http://www.prayer-man.com/billy-lovelady-was-not-standing-on-the-top-of-the-steps/

No woman

No stranger

No midget either

ROKC 3 Doyle 0

Edited May 15, 2016 by Bart Kamp

[Guest]

Nice set of denials Sandy,

Take a look at the shot below, the 'wall' of people at that distance.

Wiegman stood in the car as he was about to jump out.

You wish to treat both points of view as equal? A camera man who has no obstructed view aiming up, compared to someone who might (!) hold a camera and has an obstructed view?

Every picture I've seen indicates that PM had an unobstructed view of those riding in the cars. He was standing several feet above the crowd. Yet even the tallest in the crowd would be only a foot or two higher than those sitting in a car.

Even so, this is a moot point. (moot = of little significance) PM's intention may have been to take pictures if he could, only to learn later that it was hard for him to get a clear shot.

(I clarified the meaning of "moot" because to some the word means "debatable" and to others it means "of little or no significance.")

Imagine the seated people in the car, how much would Oswald see through his viewfinder of these people in that car with that 'wall' and distance between him?

You wish to tell me that those close ups do not resemble a bottle and a lunch sack? Yet you can see a camera......that by itself is an extraordinary belief, which I do not subscribe to.

Just to be clear, I never said that those objects do not resemble a bottle and lunch sack.

I also never said the object in PM's hands looks like a camera. What I did say is that the way PM is handling the object is consistent with the way a camera is handled.

Show me the picture where Oswald is holding the object with both hands, as what I am looking at it is only his right hand.

PM appears to be holding the object at chest level with both hands. When the object is at face level, I'm not certain whether he is still holding it with his left or not. But it appears that he doesn't drop his left hand.

You can see PM holding the object with two hands in the animated GIF below, when the inset picture on top appears.

One hand not two, and who looks through a camera with their mouth?

There is nothing that obscures his throat or above, his face, on top of the reflection!

Edited May 15, 2016 by Bart Kamp

[Chris Davidson]

If it was a camera and it was Oswald, what happened to the camera subsequently?

Good question. Either nobody knows or nobody is talking.

P.S. Your white mug idea is not bad.

Assume that Lovelady had the white object in hand and he raised it up.

Where/how high does the white object get raised to in relation to Lovelady's face? i.e. eyes, forehead, nose

Chris, you're a genius! You've done it again.

I'll take your challenge, when I find a little time. I think it will be enlightening.

Sandy,

I was wrong.

It appears the person in Weigman is a woman, holding a coffee mug, out in front of her mouth.

[Robert Prudhomme]

If it was a camera and it was Oswald, what happened to the camera subsequently?

Good question. Either nobody knows or nobody is talking.

P.S. Your white mug idea is not bad.

Assume that Lovelady had the white object in hand and he raised it up.

Where/how high does the white object get raised to in relation to Lovelady's face? i.e. eyes, forehead, nose

Chris, you're a genius! You've done it again.

I'll take your challenge, when I find a little time. I think it will be enlightening.

Sandy,

I was wrong.

It appears the person in Weigman is a woman, holding a coffee mug, out in front of her mouth.

The interesting thing about this still, if we assume, for the moment, that PM is Oswald, is that Lovelady is one inch shorter than PM/Oswald and standing on the next step down in this still. As research has shown each of the TSBD steps to be roughly seven inches higher than the next one, the top of Lovelady's head should be eight inches lower than the top of PM/Oswald's head, if his head is one inch lower than PM/Oswald's head when they are on the same step.

As this is clearly not the case, and there is, to our perspective, perhaps a three or four inch difference, can we finally just accept that PM/Oswald is way at the back of the top landing, and Lovelady is at the very front of the landing? And that the perspective of the camera, lower down on the street, is completely thrown off by this, and height comparisons are impossible?

And for God's sake, can we just let go of the silly notion that PM is holding a Coke bottle and, by sheer fluke, only the base of the bottle is in sunlight, while his hands are in shadow? And that he can raise his hands up to his face, without moving the bottle base out of the sunlight? Or his hands into the sunlight?

[Roy Wieselquist]

Please don't shoot the suggestion-messenger, but has anyone considered that Prayer Man could be Jack Edwin Dougherty?

Random, disparate "evidence":

1. JED has a distinguishing feature, very long arms, like PM. I think this set of pictures is from Bart Kamp #15 of this topic. Notice how much longer PM's arms are than everyone around him, especially in the top center blow-up:

http://www.prayer-man.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/12/Prayer-Woman-Dead-and-Buried.jpg

other photos of JED:

http://www.reopenkennedycase.org/apps/photos/album?albumid=15916912

2. Of all TSBD employees, JED's whereabouts are the least known. His WC testimony, and all his known conversation about that crucial hour, is beyond crazy. He always had a handler/shepherd, like his father, police officer brother or TSBD supervisors, with him when he made any statements. And STILL, his WC statements are impossible. For instance, he claimed he was on the 5th AND 6th floors around 12:30 yet didn't see anyone. Said he was on the 5th, mere feet away from the West (freight) elevator, when he heard only ONE shot. He didn't see Williams, Jarman, and Norman, though they ran from the SE corner to the west wall, and made a lot of noise. And they didn't see Daugherty either, though they milled around in that area for a while. In short, JED wasn't on the fifth floor during the shooting. I think he was out front in the shadow. After performing his tasks for Truly and Ochus V. Campbell, especially the elevators.

Duke Lane has a great article about all this. "Only Jack Dougherty was AWOL during this crucial period..." The essay (2007) in full:

http://educationforum.ipbhost.com/index.php?showtopic=11126&page=3#entry121730

There's a great thread by Greg Parker and others about JED's WC testimony on, I believe, jfkmurdersolved or ROKC. But I can't find it at the moment; I'd never get this done. A monkey has more computer skills than me. Anyway, JED's testimony stands alone for its huh?-value. Though...I believe he gives many clues about what he was really up to.

3. JED had free run of the place, kind of a floater for Roy Truly and Bill Shelley. He never did have a job description. He arrived at work every day at 7, not 8 like the other hourly. The floor-laying crew, he was on some lists, not on others. He wasn't really helping them much, just came and went. [ASIDE: the condition of the 6th floor on 11-22 was some kind of Potemkin Village. A reporter looked around it in 1965; it was still unfinished.]

4. At the very end of Weigman, it looks like PM is turning to go back into TSBD, I believe. Preceding Marrion Baker and Roy Truly, I believe. Before that, he may have been as low as three steps down, causing some posters here to think he's shorter than he is. But look at the best Darnell photo of him. He towers above the woman in sunlight who is leaning against the center rail.

5. PM's hands raised to chest with elbows out may be a nervous gesture. One arm out drinking from a cup, it does look like that, but both out? It's eerily similar to JFK's gesture previous. Maybe JED knew shots were coming, or thought it possible, and has some kind of imitation reflex.

Speculation:

Jack Dougherty thought he was part of some kind of crew that went through the building before the parade, making sure everything was "OK." Then his duty was the elevators, with Troy West and Eddie Piper under him, making sure they didn't move without some signal -- a whistle, a bell hell I don't know. West stayed near his wrapping station, close to the elevators, during the parade. Piper was roving around, accosted on the 4th floor by DPD Baker. The elevators went off twice after 12:30, and started up again.

It's a whole lot longer story than that, but anyway, could Jack Daugherty be Prayer Man? This is enough of a mess of a post for now.

P.S. All this good investigation RE LHO as PM can still bear some good fruit if it nails down a big part of the machinations going on 11-22-63.

PPS Just for the record, I think LHO was the last white man in Dallas with a motive to shoot JFK. Now John B. Connally is another matter, IMHO. Ozzie popped Johnny Con twice for being the keystone of the coup, and for about a hundred other things. Three gunmen in 6th floor TSBD: Mac Wallace in SE window (sniper's nest), LHO 2 windows from SW window, Loy Factor in SW window. Jim Braden/Brading in Dal-Tex, Harry Weatherstone in Records Building. French-Corsicans (Souetre, Sarti, etc.?) on South Knoll. And who knows how many on the North Knoll.

Ozzie did his best to stop the coup, a herculean effort. Shooting JBC was the last -ditch way of making them pay SOMEthing.

Edited May 16, 2016 by Roy Wieselquist

[Ray Mitcham]

Hate to disagree, Sandy, but if you magnify the gif, you will see that his left elbow stays in the same position in both views.

His right arm lifts whatever it is but the left arm doesn't.

IMO

[Chris Davidson]

If it was a camera and it was Oswald, what happened to the camera subsequently?

Good question. Either nobody knows or nobody is talking.

P.S. Your white mug idea is not bad.

Assume that Lovelady had the white object in hand and he raised it up.

Where/how high does the white object get raised to in relation to Lovelady's face? i.e. eyes, forehead, nose

Chris, you're a genius! You've done it again.

I'll take your challenge, when I find a little time. I think it will be enlightening.

Sandy,

I was wrong.

It appears the person in Weigman is a woman, holding a coffee mug, out in front of her mouth.

Lovelady's head cloned as a height comparison to the white object.

[Sandy Larsen]

Hate to disagree, Sandy, but if you magnify the gif, you will see that his left elbow stays in the same position in both views.

His right arm lifts whatever it is but the left arm doesn't.

IMO

I don't know why you are disagreeing with me, Ray. Because I believe exactly what you just said, and I've said so more than once.

What I said is that his left elbow is stationary and is acting as a pivot. His left forearm rotates clockwise (clockwise from our perspective) a little, and because of that his left hand rises and moves to his left.