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PRAYER PERSON - PRAYER MAN OR PRAYER WOMAN? RESEARCH THREAD


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2 minutes ago, Sandy Larsen said:


Alistair,

I've come to accept that you believe pretty much the opposite of everything I believe. :P

(Which, incidentally, means that you are wrong about everything. ;) IMHO)

What would you do then if I said I believed it was Lovelady on the steps in the Darnell frame? Would your head explode? lol ;)

 

 

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On 2/14/2017 at 0:17 PM, Andrej Stancak said:

53 years already passed and somehow no one saw them...

 

On 2/14/2017 at 1:30 PM, Alistair Briggs said:

Or maybe they have. ;)

Maybe just maybe at least one of them has been 'hidden' in plain view all these years... maybe. ;)

If no one seeing this person referred to as PM means that none of the few people in that location knew who the guy was - perhaps they were not specifically asked.

If it is meant that none of the TSBD witnesses ever mentioned who this person was, then I say why would they even if they did no him.  Beull Frazier mentioned a few names and I believe one or two he wasn't certain about or had just a first name. The one thing I am certain about for me personally is that Buell would have said he was standing next to Lee Oswald (his car pool buddy) had that been the case. In fact, recently I saw Buell on a "History Matters" show at the 6th floor Museum. He mentioned seeing Oswald outside of the TSBD walking east across Houston Street and then South crossing Elm Street before disappearing into the crowd. My first thought was that I did not recall him mentioning this to the Commission. Regardless, the point is he was now saying he saw Lee outside the building following the assassination and I think he speculated that Lee must have came out the back by the loading dock. He said nothing about Lee standing on the landing outside the first floor during or after the assassination.

 

 

 

 

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From Frazier's testimony at the Clay Shaw trial...

Quote

Q: Mr. Frazier, do you recall who you were with during the presidential motorcade?
A: Yes, sir, I can. When I was standing there at the top of the stairs I was standing there by a heavyset lady who worked up in our office, her name is Sara, I forget her last name, but she was standing right there beside me when we watched the motorcade.

 

 

 

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On 1/12/2016 at 5:41 AM, Greg Parker said:

...One example, The first item on my list:

  • Oswald's alibi was altered by Bookhout, with Fritz cribbing from Bookhout's alteration

The first part is NOT speculation. Going from memory, so there may have been more than one change, but in the combined Hosty-Bookhout report, it simply noted that Oswald had seen Junior and another employee re-enter the building. In Bookhout's later solo report, this gets changed to a claim of having lunch with Junior. This was easy to refute. They simply asked Junior if he had lunch with Oswald - the answer was "no" - so there goes the alibi.

 

Fritz claimed he took no notes during the interrogations. Yet notes later turned up. Those were very likely rough notes copied from Bookhout. Sean simply put the notes beside Bookhout's report and noted how well it all matched up...

Greg,

This is one of the most important points anybody has made on this topic.

The assumption that Oswald was anywhere near the front of the TSBD that afternoon came from Fritz, Bookhout, Hosty, Holmes, and other officials who were not eye-witnesses.

Regards 

--Paul Trejo 

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Paul:

Oswald could not be anywhere else than in the front (south) part of the 1st floor (vestibule) or in the doorway if we agree that he was not on the sixth floor shooting the president and that the second floor encounter between Officer Baker and Lee Harvey Oswald did happen. A bit of logical reasoning would tell you that in such a case Oswald could only be at the front (south) of the first floor.

If we accept that Lee Harvey Oswald was not the shooter (and was therefore not descending from the sixth floor) and that the second floor encounter happened then Oswald could reach the second floor lunchroom to meet Officer Baker only using one of two stairs leading from the first to the second floor. 

A. If Oswald was in the first floor lunchroom and went to the second floor lunchroom from that place, Baker and Truly would have to see him passing by when they were trying to call the elevator. He would enter the north-west stairwell and walked up, and approximately at the time when he was about at the top of the second flight (just about stepping on the second floor platform) Truly and Baker would have just stepped on the first of two flights of stairs leading to the second floor. Why this timing? If there would be a too long time interval between Baker+Truly and Oswald, Baker would not be able to spot him because Oswald would be already deep in the lunchroom at a place which cannot be seen from the platform of the second floor. If they would follow him with a shorter delay, they would have to see the door leading to the second floor lunchroom vestibule closing. Both doors leading to the small vestibule in front of the lunchroom had a pneumatic latch system delaying the door closure after a person entered the door. This has been highlighted early on by Leo Sauvage (The Oswald Affair, 1965), and explained in detail by Gil Jesus more recently. Barry Ernest visited the Depository few years after the fact and was able to confirm the slow closure of the doors. If Oswald entered the second floor lunchroom by ascending through the northwest stairs, Truly and Oswald would be aware of his presence, would hear his steps, and would either see the door closing or hear it. Interestingly, Truly was ahead of Baker and therefore, he would have a much better chance to spot Oswald than Baker because Oswald would still be in the small vestibule or just entering the door leading to the vestibule.

B. Oswald was in the first floor lunchroom and got to the second floor lunchroom using the stairs in the south part (front) of the first floor. Here, Oswald would make an illogical decision to get to the second floor to use the vending machine by not going straight using northwest stairs but by first walking across the first floor to the first floor vestibule at the south side of the building and then use the stairs to get to the office area of the second floor and eventually to the second floor lunchroom. While he would be walking across the first floor, he would have to meet Truly and Baker as they were getting from the main entrance to the northwest part of the first floor. They spent some seconds trying to call the elevator and then they ran up. Their meeting along their routes (Baker and Truly to the northwest of the first floor, Oswald to the south of the first floor) would be inevitable. They would not see him only if he was already up on the stairs, just approaching or entering the second floor. He would be in the second floor lunchroom much too soon relative to Baker and Truly. Thus, the scenario with Oswald being initially in the first floor lunchroom assumes that Truly and Baker had met Oswald twice - once in the first floor as they dashed to the northwest elevators/stairs and again in the second floor lunchroom. However, they have not seen Oswald twice.

We can therefore also discard the possibility that Oswald was in the first floor lunchroom the whole time and only quite late he decided to get a Coke from the second floor lunchroom.

Oswald theoretically could be standing in the doorway or behind the glass door and after Baker and Truly passed without noticing him he would quickly walk into the building and use the front stairs to get to the second floor lunchroom just seconds before Truly and Baker. Although this  scenario is very unlikely (Oswald most likely already had his Coke and drank from it during the time when Wiegman's film was shot), it would be compatible with Oswald standing in the south side of the first floor (doorway). Thus, we again have Oswald in the front part of the first floor.

If we accept that the second floor encounter between Baker and Truly did not happen, Oswald theoretically could have been in the first floor lunchroom the whole time and only leave the domino room after Baker and Truly entered the northwest stairs. In that case, they would not see him at all. However, this is not what either of the two men testified.

And so we are left with the most plausible explanation: the encounter between Oswald and Baker did happen, however, it happened in the first floor vestibule, or whilst Oswald was in the small storage room next to the stairs leading from the first floor to the second floor. This encounter had to be moved from the first to the second floor to frame Oswald with the murder of President Kennedy. Further details as to how moving of their encounter from the first to the second floor happened were provided by Sean Murphy in 2013, and were also summarised well in Stan Dane's Prayer Man book. 

 

  

 

 

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20 hours ago, Andrej Stancak said:

Paul:

Oswald could not be anywhere else than in the front (south) part of the 1st floor (vestibule) or in the doorway if we agree that he was not on the sixth floor shooting the president and that the second floor encounter between Officer Baker and Lee Harvey Oswald did happen. A bit of logical reasoning would tell you that in such a case Oswald could only be at the front (south) of the first floor.

If we accept that Lee Harvey Oswald was not the shooter (and was therefore not descending from the sixth floor) and that the second floor encounter happened then Oswald could reach the second floor lunchroom to meet Officer Baker only using one of two stairs leading from the first to the second floor. 

A. If Oswald was in the first floor lunchroom and went to the second floor lunchroom from that place, Baker and Truly would have to see him passing by when they were trying to call the elevator. He would enter the north-west stairwell and walked up, and approximately at the time when he was about at the top of the second flight (just about stepping on the second floor platform) Truly and Baker would have just stepped on the first of two flights of stairs leading to the second floor. Why this timing? If there would be a too long time interval between Baker+Truly and Oswald, Baker would not be able to spot him because Oswald would be already deep in the lunchroom at a place which cannot be seen from the platform of the second floor. If they would follow him with a shorter delay, they would have to see the door leading to the second floor lunchroom vestibule closing. Both doors leading to the small vestibule in front of the lunchroom had a pneumatic latch system delaying the door closure after a person entered the door. This has been highlighted early on by Leo Sauvage (The Oswald Affair, 1965), and explained in detail by Gil Jesus more recently. Barry Ernest visited the Depository few years after the fact and was able to confirm the slow closure of the doors. If Oswald entered the second floor lunchroom by ascending through the northwest stairs, Truly and Oswald would be aware of his presence, would hear his steps, and would either see the door closing or hear it. Interestingly, Truly was ahead of Baker and therefore, he would have a much better chance to spot Oswald than Baker because Oswald would still be in the small vestibule or just entering the door leading to the vestibule.

Huh???  How about Oswald being seen walking towards the inner door the 2nd floor lunchroom after having just bought a coke.

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Bill:

I am not sure I understand " walking towards the inner door the 2nd floor lunchroom after having just bought a coke". Are you referring to the testimony of Mrs. Reid?

I assume so. Well, there is a great tension between different testimonies in the Warren Report as far as Lee Harvey Oswald's whereabouts during or shortly after the shooting are concerned. 

One can have Mrs. Reid's testimony (which was not corroborated by Mrs. Geneva Hine though), however, it is then necessary to make a decision: Are you a LN defender? A lone nut hypothesis would be roughly consistent with Oswald being spotted in the second floor lunchroom by Officer Baker through the small window in the door leading to the vestibule of that lunchroom, and then meeting Mrs. Reid as he walked towards the front stairs. (Even here the timing would hardly hold due to the slow closing of the door).

If you would rather defend a hypothesis according to which Oswald was not the shooter and had no business on the sixth floor during the time of assassination, Oswald would have to get to the second floor lunchroom from the first floor. The only possibility to have Oswald meeting Baker and Truly in the second floor lunchroom and later Mrs. Reid would be if he walked from the front (south) part of the first floor via the front stairs. How comes that Baker and Truly did not see him when they entered the front vestibule? Maybe he was already too high up on the stairs, just stepping on the second floor platform. Oswald would then get into the lunchroom much too soon to be seen by Baker and Truly who needed to overcome a bit longer distance, spend maybe 10-15 second with trying to call an elevator and then to rush up via the northwest stairs. Oswald would have been already deep in the lunchroom and Baker would not be able to spot him. 

Mrs. Reid's testimony and whether it was truthful or not have been discussed in detail in the main Prayer Man thread (2013) in case you would be interested. There is not much sense in replaying the same aspects of Prayer Man case again and again.

  

 

 

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3 hours ago, Andrej Stancak said:

Bill:

I am not sure I understand " walking towards the inner door the 2nd floor lunchroom after having just bought a coke". Are you referring to the testimony of Mrs. Reid?

I assume so. Well, there is a great tension between different testimonies in the Warren Report as far as Lee Harvey Oswald's whereabouts during or shortly after the shooting are concerned. 

One can have Mrs. Reid's testimony (which was not corroborated by Mrs. Geneva Hine though), however, it is then necessary to make a decision: Are you a LN defender? A lone nut hypothesis would be roughly consistent with Oswald being spotted in the second floor lunchroom by Officer Baker through the small window in the door leading to the vestibule of that lunchroom, and then meeting Mrs. Reid as he walked towards the front stairs. (Even here the timing would hardly hold due to the slow closing of the door).

Oswald doesn't have to of been involved in killing JFK to have been seen on the second floor by Baker. So no - I do not believe Baker and Truly lied about lee being on the second floor when Baker saw him.

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1 hour ago, Bill Miller said:

Oswald doesn't have to of been involved in killing JFK to have been seen on the second floor by Baker. So no - I do not believe Baker and Truly lied about lee being on the second floor when Baker saw him.

From which place then Oswald reached the second floor lunchroom and which stairs did he use?

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2 hours ago, Andrej Stancak said:

From which place then Oswald reached the second floor lunchroom and which stairs did he use?

You would need to ask Oswald because the USS Enterprise wasn't available  at that time for Mr. Scott to have transported him there. In fact, I don't recall anyone ever seeing him come down from the upper floor so to be seen in the second floor lunchroom. And I think the same could be said as to how he got out of the building.

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  • 2 weeks later...
On 5/12/2016 at 4:47 PM, Chris Davidson said:

I've always felt the elbow positioning dictated someone holding a camera. Robin made me question that original thought with the introduction of a coffee cup.

This gif is not quite the exact body orientation, but it's fairly close.

A camera it is. imo

Steps2.gif

bumped for the heck of it

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On 2/23/2017 at 3:11 PM, Bill Miller said:

Huh???  How about Oswald being seen walking towards the inner door the 2nd floor lunchroom after having just bought a coke.

Huh?

How about that did not happen at all.........

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On 1/12/2016 at 5:41 AM, Greg Parker said:
  • Oswald's alibi was altered by Bookhout, with Fritz cribbing from Bookhout's alteration

...In the combined Hosty-Bookhout report, it simply noted that Oswald had seen Junior and another employee re-enter the building.

 

in Bookhout's later solo report, this gets changed to a claim of having lunch with Junior. This was easy to refute. They simply asked Junior if he had lunch with Oswald - the answer was "no" - so there goes the alibi.

 

Fritz claimed he took no notes during the interrogations. Yet notes later turned up. Those were very likely rough notes copied from Bookhout.

 

Sean simply put the notes beside Bookhout's report and noted how well it all matched up...

Greg,

I bumped this again because of its importance.

We have no evidence that LHO was ever on the 1st floor between lunch time and the moment he met Baker and Truly, because Fritz & Co. were big fat fabricators.

Regards,
--Paul Trejo

Edited by Paul Trejo
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On 2/23/2017 at 3:42 PM, Bill Miller said:

Oswald doesn't have to of been involved in killing JFK to have been seen on the second floor by Baker. So no - I do not believe Baker and Truly lied about lee being on the second floor when Baker saw him.

Bill,

This is logical.  Baker and Truly had no reason to lie that I can see.

Now, Andrej asks what stair LHO took to the 2nd floor, yet he assumes that LHO was on the 1st floor at some point.

Yet there is no evidence that LHO was ever on the 1st floor, if we discount the fabrication of Fritz & Co.

So, my answer is that LHO simply took the elevator from the 6th floor to the 2nd floor and had his lunch quietly and alone.

At the end of his lunch, LHO bought a Coke.

Regards,
--Paul Trejo

Edited by Paul Trejo
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