PRAYER PERSON - PRAYER MAN OR PRAYER WOMAN? RESEARCH THREAD

[Andrej Stancak]

13 hours ago, Bill Miller said:

Good to see that Campbell saw Truly and Patrolman Baker run into the building. They too can be added to the witnesses who saw what the Darnell film illustrates just short of the running up the stairs before turning the camera away from the scene.

The next thing is when did Campbell see Oswald on the first floor?  It certainly wasn't when Baker and Truly entered the building because Campbell took off shagging tail for the knoll. It could have been several minutes before Campbell went back to the TSBD. Because Campbell saw Lee after returning to the building doesn't mean that Oswald wasn't on the second floor when Baker and Truly started up the stairs. It's looking to me that the person who wrote the story assumed that because Oswald was said to be seen on the first floor by Campbell who said shortly after hearing shots ... he raced into the building, thus Truly and Baker must have run into Oswald on the first floor as they ran to the elevator, but neither Truly, Baker, West, Piper, or anyone else who was in the building or who entered the building just behind Truly said anything about seeing Oswald on the first floor at that time.

Bill:

 

Your question as to when Ochus Campbell returned to the Depository building has been already discussed in quite a detail in the original Prayer Man thread. I cannot add anything to what Sean Murphy wrote on August 24, 2013, page 18 in that thread. Please check it for yourself. I see no reason for copying/pasting Sean's original post here.

If you follow up few more posts in the original thread, you would also acknowledge that there are two independent sources of information that Lee Harvey Oswald was in the storage room after the shooting. One is Campbell's observation, and the other is the testimony of the postal inspector Holmes.

As far as the timing of Oswald's dwelling in the storage room is concerned, there are some unknowns, that is for sure. We do not know for how long would Oswald as Prayer Man stay in the doorway after the last frame of the Darnell's film. Although I do not wish to re-ignite the discussion of Baker's run to the Depository, the timing of his entering the building might have been delayed by him first running to the east corner of the building and only then returning to the main entrance. This would explain the absence of his entering to the building in Wesley Frazier's testimony who otherwise had to see Baker should Baker continue his dash up the steps into the building. A tentative scenario could be this:

Time 0 s: last frame of Darnell; Prayer Man and Frazier at their locations in the doorway; Campbell moving towards the Grassy Knoll; Baker about 8-10 yards from the entrance and heading towards the east corner of the Depository.

Time 0 + ~10 s: Frazier and Prayer Man go into the the building via the glass door. Campbell still wanting to go to the Grassy Knoll. Baker reaching the east corner of the building.

Time 0 + ~30 s: Frazier on his way to the basement, Oswald enters the storage room; Baker decides to go to the building; Campbell about to reach the decision to return to the building;

Time 0 + ~50 s: Frazier about to enter the basement, Oswald in the storage room (not everyone would agree, however, maybe searching desperately for the rifle he may have left there); Baker reaches the glass door, followed by Truly. Campbell on his way back to the Depository.

Time 0 + 55 s:  Frazier in the basement, Oswald in the storage room, Baker sees him in there and asks if he worked here, Truly answers on Oswald's behalf. Campbell about to enter the steps leading to the building.

Time 0 + 65 s: Baker and Truly rush out from the vestibule, Campbell enters the glass door, Oswald is still in the storage room. 

Time 0 +70 s: Baker and Truly out of the vestibule and in the open plane area, Campbell spots Oswald in the storage room.

Thus,  Baker+Truly and Campbell could see the same Lee Harvey Oswald in the storage room at two slightly different time instants. Please note that from Campbell's perspective it would be about two minutes to return to the Depository because my time 0 corresponds to about 30 seconds after the last shot. 

I hope it makes sense.

 

 

 

 

 

Edited March 10, 2017 by Andrej Stancak

[Paul Trejo]

3 hours ago, Bill Miller said:

I have read three of Buell's testimonies and his affidavit. Maybe it would help me if you paste the sentences you recommend for the purposes of this discussion.

Bill

Here are the sentences from Buell Frazier's testimony that I had in mind:

Mr. BALL - Did Shelly introduce you to him or did you go up and shake hands with him?

Mr. FRAZIER - No, sir; he didn't. I remember, I knew, you know that he was going to be coming to work so naturally I hadn't been there very long, you know, living in Dallas and so I wanted to make friends with everybody I could, because you know yourself friendship is something you can't buy with money and you always need friends, so I went up and introduced and he told me his name was Lee and I said "We are glad to have you."  We got talking back and forth and he come to find out I knew his wife was staying there at the time with this other woman and so I thought he would go out there and I said, "Are you going to be going home this afternoon?" And he told me then, he told me that he didn't have a car, you know, and so I told him. I said, "Well, I live out there in Irving,"- I found out he lived out there and so I said, "Any time you want to go just let me know." So I thought he would go home every day like most men do but he told me no, that he wouldn't go home every day and then he asked me could he ride home say like Friday afternoon on weekends and come back on Monday morning and I told him that would be just fine with me.  I told him if he wanted a ride any other time just let me know before I go off and leave him because when it comes to quitting time some of these guys, you know, some of them mess around the bathroom and some of them quit early, and some of them like that, and some leave at different times than others. But I said from talking to him then, I say, he just wanted to ride home on weekends with me and I said that was fine.

It was this reference to hanging around the bathroom at quitting time that I found non-sequitur, and suggestive of Frazier's state of mind upon his very first meeting of Lee Harvey Oswald.

Regards,
--Paul Trejo

Edited March 10, 2017 by Paul Trejo

[Paul Trejo]

7 hours ago, Andrej Stancak said:

Paul:

...Even if Fritz & Co. were the "JFK Kill Team", they still needed a patsy. The patsy was Lee Harvey Oswald. Unfortunately for whoever who framed Lee Harvey Oswald, Lee went out as the motorcade was passing the Depository to see what was this commotion about, holding a Coke he bought some minutes ago on the second floor. So, Prayer Man stays as a problem even for those believing your theory about Fritz&Co. being responsible for the murder of President Kennedy. 

Andrej,

Although Fritz & Co. needed a Patsy, they did NOT need the Patsy to be seen anywhere in the building..

There was no need to invent this story about the 1st floor or 2nd floor, and then coordinate all these WC witnesses to lie for them about it. 

It's unnecessary.

The only thing the JFK Killers needed to frame LHO was to have his rifle in their possession, and to have all this evidence from New Orleans that LHO was a Communist -- in the newspapers, the radio and TV.

LHO was supposed to be shot on sight -- anywhere.   He was pre-convicted, after they got ahold of his rifle.

By the way -- Prayer Man is no problem for my CT.   In my CT, LHO never shot at anybody from the TSBD 6th floor. 

However, Prayer Man is a problem when we consider all those WC witnesses who told the Truth that they didn't see LHO at the TSBD front steps where they were standing.

Regards,
--Paul Trejo

[Bill Miller]

1 hour ago, Andrej Stancak said:

I hope it makes sense.

Nothing makes sense when one attempts to rewrite the evidence in such a way to make Oswald out to be Prayer Man. Frazier was just a little more than an arms length from PM and facing his direction. Frazier went as far as to say that he could have been talking to someone and didn't see Patrolman baker run up the stairs. And the way Frazier is turned in the Darnell film ... it is not hard to see how that could have happened. And by the way, Frazier didn't even mention seeing the Patrol Officer getting off his bike and sprinting towards the TSBD, so it just lends to the credibility that Frazier had his attention focused somewhere else.

Frazier also remembered a few people who were there with him outside the entrance and had Lee been there with Buell, then Buell would have said so in my view. And lord knows how long Campbell was out on the knoll observing the people searching the RR Yard. It could have been several minutes or even longer as far as that goes.

As far as Truly goes ... there is no doubt in my mind that he knew which floor he and Baker was on when Oswald was confronted. I have yet to hear a rational response stating why Truly would mention that meeting with Oswald occurred on the second floor if it had occurred on the 1st floor. After all, Truly had to stop and come back down the steps to the second floor once he realized that Baker wasn't right behind him. It was the voices coming from the second floor lunchroom that led Roy to Baker and Oswald.

[Guest]

12 hours ago, Bart Kamp said:

Where in this article does this mention Baker and Truly!

WHERE!

 

 

Where Bill MIller????

Where????

[Guest]

On 3/8/2017 at 1:07 PM, Bill Miller said:

There are lots of postings that can be viewed as a waste of time - some even being your own. You reference a video on Prayer Man in which you called the Newman's the "Wiegman's" and no one called the video a waste of time because you misspoke. As far as my mentioning the coke - I have read that somewhere and may have wrongly attributed it to WC testimony, which still doesn't take away from the other testimony I posted pertaining too Oswald being met on the second floor. Being a hypocrite does not make your theory correct.

Me bring a hypocrite, for making a tiny mistake in a 97 minute presentation?

You are having a laugh.

Posting wrong info as truth and not being able to back it up after several requests to do so? And the same as per your interpretation of the NYHT article, even Doyle believes you.

You wish to compare these two matters?

I think the public can see what you are made of Bill Miller.

And the 2nd floor lunch room encounter NEVER happened.

There is just too much evidence to dispute it.

 

Read my essay for a change, instead of filling this forum with your speculative assertions.

Peel the onion for a change instead of just repeating what the top layer displays.

 

 

[Bill Miller]

5 hours ago, Bart Kamp said:

I think the public can see what you are made of Bill Miller.

And the 2nd floor lunch room encounter NEVER happened.

There is just too much evidence to dispute it.

 

I say Baker meeting Oswald on the second floor did happen. So we must agree to disagree. And in case you missed it - I do not believe Frazier stood there talking to Oswald and was intimidated not to tell anyone, especially not knowing if someone had a clear image showing Prayer Man's face. But then again i don't have a lot of time invested in the need to have Prayer Man be Oswald.  

 

Quote

Read my essay for a change, instead of filling this forum with your speculative assertions.

The entire JFK assassination is full of speculative assertions with many people feeling that theirs is the correct one.

Edited March 11, 2017 by Bill Miller

[Guest]

Some cheap cop outs Miller as replies, putting your points across without a proper backup of evidence and then claiming not to have a lot of time invested in the PM matter.

For someone who doesn't have a lot of time invested in this matter you sure as hell post a lot in these two threads.

Pot..............kettle............no I take that back.

The sheer hypocrisy is staggering Miller.

[Guest]

11 hours ago, Bart Kamp said:

Where Bill MIller????

Where????

WHERE MIller?

Where in this article does this mention Baker and Truly!

Even Doyle is reposting it as gospel at DPF, so indulge us all!!

 

 

[Bill Miller]

5 hours ago, Bart Kamp said:

WHERE MIller?

Where in this article does this mention Baker and Truly!

Even Doyle is reposting it as gospel at DPF, so indulge us all!!

I have carefully laid out my opinion about the second floor meeting with Oswald and said why he was not on the first floor or standing next to Frazier where PM seems to be. It's archived for your reading pleasure.

[Guest]

7 hours ago, Bill Miller said:

I have carefully laid out my opinion about the second floor meeting with Oswald and said why he was not on the first floor or standing next to Frazier where PM seems to be. It's archived for your reading pleasure.

That is NOT what I am talking about.

First the claim of the coke and second attributing Baker and Truly in an article where they are not mentioned at all.

If this is the way you handle the evidence then Lordy help us all.

Squirm away Miller, but you are not let off.

Do yourself a huge favour and retract what you said in both instances.

[Bill Miller]

17 minutes ago, Bart Kamp said:

That is NOT what I am talking about.

First the claim of the coke and second attributing Baker and Truly in an article where they are not mentioned at all.

If this is the way you handle the evidence then Lordy help us all.

Squirm away Miller, but you are not let off.

Do yourself a huge favour and retract what you said in both instances.

I said I remember reading somewhere about Oswald having bought a coke whether it be testimony or in a book or article.  It's been more than 30 plus years since I spent more than three years reading the 26 Volumes of the Warren Report and I still have to be refreshed on things I read in it. I have no intention of going back over everything I have ever read in my 45 years of reading about the assassination over a coke. Especially when it doesn't add anything to Prayer Man being Lee or Lee being confronted by Truly and Baker on the second floor. Did you think you were going to run a distraction with me - really?

I find your first floor Oswald as where Truly and Baker ran into him to be a bunch or rubbish. I am entitled to that opinion and can't really understand why you are so threatened by it.

Edited March 11, 2017 by Bill Miller

[Michael Clark]

19 hours ago, Bill Miller said:

I have no intention of going back over everything I have ever read in my 45 years of reading about the assassination over a coke. Especially when it doesn't add anything to Prayer Man being Lee or Lee being confronted by Truly and Baker on the second floor. Did you think you were going to run a distraction with me - really?.

Bill, the hyperbole in your complaint that you are being expected to do an onerous amount, (26 volumes of WC testimony), of research to back the vulumnous totality of your assertions on these threads is utterly disingenuous, at best. Surely, given your apparent tremendous interest in this portion of the larger investigation, it would be expected that you would familiarize yourself with the relevant testimony after being divorced from those readings for thirty years. Of course, if your purpose is to pull up some popcorn and toy with some folks who are trying to come-up with answers to this mystery, then semantics, misdirection, a faux scepticism and a paper cap declaring your expertise will surely get you through your daily excercise. It appears you have been fooling people for years. I don't see that fact as a guarantee of your future experience; but I don't make it a habit of trying to predict the future, yet I do tend towards optimism.

Cheers,

Michael

Edited March 12, 2017 by Michael Clark

[Bill Miller]

1 hour ago, Michael Clark said:

Of course, if your purpose is to pull up some popcorn and toy with some folks who are trying to come-up with answers to this mystery, then semantics, misdirection, a faux scepticism and a paper cap declaring your expertise will surely get you through your daily excercise. It appears you have been fooling people for years. I don't see that fact as a guarantee of your future experience; but I don't make it a habit of trying to predict the future, yet I do tend towards optimism.

Cheers,

Michael

If you think your theory is the correct one, then run with it. Its when you carry on over someones view that doesn't support your own - you tend to become aggressive which then in turn makes you appear to not have as much confidence in your claims as you let on. You have referenced me as another Albert Doyle who is a lunatic Holocaust denier. For your information - I totally believe the Holocaust happened. Just sayin' ... the one with the loudest voice doesn't mean that person is right.

Hundreds of books on the assassination with each claiming to have solved the murder of JFK. Nearly all of them with their theories as to how the assassination occurred and by whom. While I know there was a conspiracy to kill JFK, I don't go so far afield as to think everyone who testified was a xxxx. And while I have been away from the forums for a decade or so, I still discuss the evidence from time to time with people who have an interest in it. And for the past several years I have been asked to come back to this forum to add some balance to it. Someone once described it as an asylum being run by the inmates. So I will look at what evidence that interest me and I will give my opinion towards it. No one has to agree with it, but everyone will have to learn to live with it.

 

[Bill Miller]

1 hour ago, Michael Clark said:

Bill, the hyperbole in your complaint that you are being expected to do an onerous amount, (26 volumes of WC testimony), of research to back the vulumnous totality of your assertions on these threads is utterly disingenuous, at best. Surely, given your apparent tremendous interest in this portion of the larger investigation, it would be expected that you would familiarize yourself with the relavant testimony after beinge divorced from those readings for thirty years.

I have not been divorced from the witness testimony for over 30 years - I periodically refresh myself every now and then, especially when it came to the doctors involved in the President's care. The one thing that stuck in my mind when reading all the witness testimonies was how many of them were saying the same things, but wording their interpretations differently ...... especially when it came to time and space. I see that gets used as if written in stone here and sometimes used to claim someone is lying. Some witness says he or she remained at location "X" for a minute and then someone wants to use that figure of speech against someone's position that same witness moved from a certain location within 30 seconds. The Darnell film is a classic example. You show Shelley and Lovelady walking down the Elm Street extension and others are saying Lovelady is still on the stairs right through to the end of the Darnell film. Buell Frazier on the other hand said in his testimony that he stayed put after the shots, but Lovelady and Shelley left right away which allows them to be walking the extension in Darnell.

Mr. BALL - The three of you didn't go any place?
Mr. FRAZIER - I believe Billy and them walked down toward that direction but I didn't. I just stood where I was. I hadn't moved at all.

I think what differs me from others is that I have no vested interest one way or the other where the evidence leads.