When Did the Framing of Oswald Begin?

[Jon G. Tidd]

Assuming there was a conspiracy to kill JFK and that the conspiracy included framing Oswald, when did the framing begin?

I've maintained, and do maintain, that Oswald was self-framing to an extent. I maintain this based on my belief Oswald was pretty much a what-you-see is what-you-get sort of person. He "defected" to the USSR. I believe he did this for his own reasons. Did he have help entering and exiting the Soviet Union? Perhaps. Various parties, various intelligence agencies, would have had a natural interest in observing him. Thomas Graves ridicules the proposition Oswald was an odd duck. It appears to me, however, Oswald was an odd duck. I could make a list of his oddities, but everyone here knows them. If they were a sham, a calculated artifice, who was paying Oswald to perform such a charade? If Oswald was simply dancing to his own tune, we get back to his self-framing.

In any event, if Oswald was framed for JFK's murder, when did that specific framing begin?

It's a central question. Why? Because for those who believe Oswald was set up to take the fall, it's not enough to point out all the burning questions about Oswald's activities on 11-22-63. It's necessary to focus, in addition, on the rifle, the pistol, the TSBD job, the BYP -- which has been done. But the question remains, when did the set-up begin?

For example, was the obtaining of the TSBD job a calculated maneuver on Ruth Paine's part? Or was it serendipity? Or for, example, was the Hidell PMO created prior to 11-22-63, or on 11-22-63?

As I ask myself these questions, I think that Oswald must have been just one of many possible perps. Except in one case. That case involves LBJ getting on the 1960 ticket and Texas' becoming crucial to JFK's re-election.

Which leads me to believe the crucial question is not "who" but is rather "where". That is, the crucial question is not who would be fingered for killing JFK but rather where JFK would be killed.

Texas was a perfect place for JFK to be killed. That was clear even in the autumn of 1960, as the presidential election approached. Oswald, in this construction, simply fell into the plotters' lap.

Edited January 17, 2016 by Jon G. Tidd

[Thomas Graves]

On 1/17/2016 at 2:17 PM, Jon G. Tidd said:

Assuming there was a conspiracy to kill JFK and that the conspiracy included framing Oswald, when did the framing begin?

I've maintained, and do maintain, that Oswald was self-framing to an extent. I maintain this based on my belief Oswald was pretty much a what-you-see is what-you-get sort of person. He "defected" to the USSR. I believe he did this for his own reasons. Did he have help entering and exiting the Soviet Union? Perhaps. Various parties, various intelligence agencies, would have had a natural interest in observing him. Thomas Graves ridicules the proposition Oswald was an odd duck. It appears to me, however, Oswald was an odd duck. I could make a list of his oddities, but everyone here knows them. If they were a sham, a calculated artifice, who was paying Oswald to perform such a charade? If Oswald was simply dancing to his own tune, we get back to his self-framing.

In any event, if Oswald was framed for JFK's murder, when did that specific framing begin?

It's a central question. Why? Because for those who believe Oswald was set up to take the fall, it's not enough to point out all the burning questions about Oswald's activities on 11-22-63. It's necessary to focus, in addition, on the rifle, the pistol, the TSBD job, the BYP -- which has been done. But the question remains, when did the set-up begin?

For example, was the obtaining of the TSBD job a calculated maneuver on Ruth Paine's part? Or was it serendipity? Or for, example, was the Hidell PMO created prior to 11-22-63, or on 11-22-63?

As I ask myself these questions, I think that Oswald must have been just one of many possible perps. Except in one case. That case involves LBJ getting on the 1960 ticket and Texas' becoming crucial to JFK's re-election.

Which leads me to believe the crucial question is not "who" but is rather "where". That is, the crucial question is not who would be fingered for killing JFK but rather where JFK would be killed.

Texas was a perfect place for JFK to be killed. That was clear even in the autumn of 1960, as the presidential election approached. Oswald, in this construction, simply fell into the plotters' lap.

Jesis Maria (a Czech expression, minus diacritical marks).

Here we go again, Jon.

Going from memory here because I'm lazy. What the hell, I'll just edit and copy and paste this from a older post of mine on another thread, and leave it that:

FBI agent John Fain interviewed Marguerite Oswald on May 12, 1960, (seven and one-half months after Oswald had "defected" to the USSR) and claimed in his report that Marguerite had told him that her son, Lee Harvey Oswald, was (a Robert Webster-like) 5'10", 165 pounds, with blue eyes.

Please see this FBI document:

https://www.maryferrell.org/mffweb/archive/viewer/showDoc.do?docId=11090&relPageId=12

In reality, Oswald was 5' 9.5" and weighed only about 135 lbs (131 lbs at autopsy), and had hazel-gray eyes.

Marguerite said after the assassination that her son, Lee had never weighed more than 150 pounds in his life!

But what's really fascinating is that an unidentified "witness" (whom Dallas Police Inspector Herbert D. Sawyer couldn't even describe, other that he was a "middle-aged white man") allegedly told Sawyer fifteen minutes after the assassination that the guy he'd seen running from the rear of the TSBD was 5'10", 165 pounds, just like another "defector," Robert Webster. At least Sawyer's mysto witness didn't say that the assassin was 5' 9 1/2" and 166 pounds and had blue eyes, like Webster. LOL!

Sawyer broadcast the 5'10", 165 pound description of the suspect just a few minutes after the assassination, and the rest is history....

In my opinion the question is not so much who in May, 1960, fed FBI agent John Fain Webster's physical description in lieu of Oswald's (which was incorporated shortly thereafter into the CiA's computerized Biographic Registry, probably to be used in an Oswald/Webster - based mole hunt), but who had access to this (incorrect) description of Oswald, and mistakenly arranged for it to be given to Inspector Sawyer on 11/22/63.

James Jesus Angleton?

David Sanchez Morales?

David Atlee Phillips?

The omnipresent Bill Bright?

https://www.maryferrell.org/pages/State_Secret_Chapter3.html

--Tommy

Edited February 16, 2017 by Thomas Graves

[Paul Brancato]

Tommy - those strike me as possibly separate questions.

Does it say on the document you linked that it was Fain who interviewed Marguerite?

[Thomas Graves]

Tommy - those strike me as possibly separate questions.

Does it say on the document you linked that it was Fain who interviewed Marguerite?

Paul,

I suggest you start reading from this point (i.e., page "6" of the MFF document; eventually you'll get to page "12", the page I "linked" you to in my previous post).

https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=11090#relPageId=6&tab=page

You'll see Fain's name in there somewhere, maybe even a couple of times.

Jesis Maria.

--Tommy

[Greg Parker]

Assuming there was a conspiracy to kill JFK and that the conspiracy included framing Oswald, when did the framing begin?

I've maintained, and do maintain, that Oswald was self-framing to an extent. I maintain this based on my belief Oswald was pretty much a what-you-see is what-you-get sort of person. He "defected" to the USSR. I believe he did this for his own reasons.

Of course he had his own reasons. He didn't have a gun held to his head. Having his own reasons in no way shape or form indicates he went there for his own purposes alone.

Did he have help entering and exiting the Soviet Union? Perhaps.

No "perhaps" about it. The SU consular official who handled visas (Gregory Golub) was targeted by the CIA via a honey trap. End result: quickie visas for US citizens who "looked okay" wink wink nudge nudge.

Various parties, various intelligence agencies, would have had a natural interest in observing him. Thomas Graves ridicules the proposition Oswald was an odd duck. It appears to me, however, Oswald was an odd duck. I could make a list of his oddities, but everyone here knows them. If they were a sham, a calculated artifice, who was paying Oswald to perform such a charade? If Oswald was simply dancing to his own tune, we get back to his self-framing.

The old false dichotomy at play. He was either a genuine eccentric, or putting on a lifelong act. There is a perfectly sane and rational third alternative: he had Aspergers Syndrome or something very similar in the way of a Personality Disorder. A very good overview: http://www.webmd.com/brain/autism/tc/aspergers-syndrome-topic-overview

In any event, if Oswald was framed for JFK's murder, when did that specific framing begin?

September/October, 1963 - some of which never saw the light of day when "conspiracy" was dropped as an option. You're ignoring that two sets of frames and two sets of framers were involved - the second lot being the DPD - who could be relied upon to frame their own grandmothers without any incitement to do so if they didn't answer questions "correctly".

It's a central question. Why? Because for those who believe Oswald was set up to take the fall, it's not enough to point out all the burning questions about Oswald's activities on 11-22-63. It's necessary to focus, in addition, on the rifle, the pistol, the TSBD job, the BYP -- which has been done. But the question remains, when did the set-up begin?

For example, was the obtaining of the TSBD job a calculated maneuver on Ruth Paine's part?

Paine - FBI - private intel - any one or any combo thereof.

Or was it serendipity? Or for, example, was the Hidell PMO created prior to 11-22-63, or on 11-22-63?

Doesn't matter when. It wasn't created by Oswald - unless deceived into doing it.

In his writing? Maybe - maybe not...

You'd never know it wasn't Lee Harvey Oswald's writing.

As I ask myself these questions, I think that Oswald must have been just one of many possible perps. Except in one case. That case involves LBJ getting on the 1960 ticket and Texas' becoming crucial to JFK's re-election.

Which leads me to believe the crucial question is not "who" but is rather "where". That is, the crucial question is not who would be fingered for killing JFK but rather where JFK would be killed.

Texas was a perfect place for JFK to be killed. That was clear even in the autumn of 1960, as the presidential election approached. Oswald, in this construction, simply fell into the plotters' lap.

Edited January 18, 2016 by Greg Parker

[Thomas Graves]

On 1/17/2016 at 3:20 PM, Thomas Graves said:

On 1/17/2016 at 2:17 PM, Jon G. Tidd said:

Assuming there was a conspiracy to kill JFK and that the conspiracy included framing Oswald, when did the framing begin?

I've maintained, and do maintain, that Oswald was self-framing to an extent. I maintain this based on my belief Oswald was pretty much a what-you-see is what-you-get sort of person. He "defected" to the USSR. I believe he did this for his own reasons. Did he have help entering and exiting the Soviet Union? Perhaps. Various parties, various intelligence agencies, would have had a natural interest in observing him. Thomas Graves ridicules the proposition Oswald was an odd duck. It appears to me, however, Oswald was an odd duck. I could make a list of his oddities, but everyone here knows them. If they were a sham, a calculated artifice, who was paying Oswald to perform such a charade? If Oswald was simply dancing to his own tune, we get back to his self-framing.

In any event, if Oswald was framed for JFK's murder, when did that specific framing begin?

It's a central question. Why? Because for those who believe Oswald was set up to take the fall, it's not enough to point out all the burning questions about Oswald's activities on 11-22-63. It's necessary to focus, in addition, on the rifle, the pistol, the TSBD job, the BYP -- which has been done. But the question remains, when did the set-up begin?

For example, was the obtaining of the TSBD job a calculated maneuver on Ruth Paine's part? Or was it serendipity? Or for, example, was the Hidell PMO created prior to 11-22-63, or on 11-22-63?

As I ask myself these questions, I think that Oswald must have been just one of many possible perps. Except in one case. That case involves LBJ getting on the 1960 ticket and Texas' becoming crucial to JFK's re-election.

Which leads me to believe the crucial question is not "who" but is rather "where". That is, the crucial question is not who would be fingered for killing JFK but rather where JFK would be killed.

Texas was a perfect place for JFK to be killed. That was clear even in the autumn of 1960, as the presidential election approached. Oswald, in this construction, simply fell into the plotters' lap.

 

What the hell, I'll just edit and copy and paste this from a older post of mine on another thread, and leave it that:

 

FBI agent John Fain interviewed Marguerite Oswald on May 12, 1960, (seven and one-half months after Oswald had "defected" to the USSR) and claimed in his report that Marguerite had told him that her son, Lee Harvey Oswald, was (a Robert Webster-like) 5'10", 165 pounds, with blue eyes.

Please see this FBI document:

https://www.maryferrell.org/mffweb/archive/viewer/showDoc.do?docId=11090&relPageId=12

In reality, Oswald was 5' 9.5" and weighed only about 135 lbs (131 lbs at autopsy), and had hazel-gray eyes.

Marguerite said after the assassination that her son, Lee, had never weighed more than 150 pounds in his life!

But what's really fascinating is that an unidentified "witness" (whom Dallas Police Inspector Herbert D. Sawyer couldn't describe other that he was a "middle-aged white man") allegedly told Sawyer fifteen minutes after the assassination that the guy he'd seen running from the rear of the TSBD was 5'10", 165 pounds. At least Sawyer's mysto witness didn't say that the assassin was 5' 9 1/2" and 166 pounds and had blue eyes (Webster's exact measurements according to the documents).

Sawyer broadcast the 5'10", 165 pound description of the suspect over police radio just a few minutes after the assassination, and the rest is history....

In my opinion the question is not so much who in May, 1960, decided to put what-in-reality was Webster's physical description into Fain's Oswald report (which was incorporated shortly thereafter into the CIA's computerized Biographic Registry, probably to be used in an Oswald/Webster - based molehunt), but who had access to this unknown-to-him incorrect description of Oswald, and arranged for it to be given to Inspector Sawyer on 11/22/63.

Some candidates:

James Jesus Angleton

David Sanchez Morales

David Atlee Phillips

Bill Bright, the SR/6 guy who'd put the "incorrect" info into the CIA's Biographical Registry in the first place, and then happened to go to work for CIA Station Mexico City just before "Oswald" arrived in that city?

https://www.maryferrell.org/pages/State_Secret_Chapter3.html (press control + "F", and type "bright" into the little pop-up search box, then scroll down)

OR PERHAPS

Some unnamed person in Army or Navy Intelligence in Texas who did not realize that the old molehunt-based description of Oswald in Military Intel files was incorrect, and was a description of Tobert E. Webster, instead?

--Tommy

edited and bumped

Edited February 16, 2017 by Thomas Graves

[Jon G. Tidd]

Tommy,

I don't deny that the FBI and CIA were watching Oswald. I agree Sawyer's broadcast description suggests an FBI report on Oswald came into the DPD's possession before 12:30 p.m. on November 22.

But even if these things are facts, they aren't what I'm seeking. I'm seeking to know discrete actions taken before JFK's murder that were taken in anticipation of the murder for the purpose of framing Oswald. And when those actions took place.

For example: [1] If the Hidell PMO was cooked up pre-JFK's murder, it's of far greater interest than if it was cooked up post-murder. Immediately after the murder, FBI agents had a strong motive to hew to Hoover's position. It's clear today FBI agents over the years have lied and falsified. [2] The BYP appear clearly to have been cooked up pre-assassination. They are of great interest, yet so much about them is opinion and conjecture. If they really were taken with the Imperial Reflex, I want to know who took them and when. I want to know who had possession of the Imperial Reflex at each point during 1963. I want to know these things because they would indicate when the framing of Oswald began and who participated in the framing.

It's possible someone such as Ruth Paine participated in the pre-assassination framing of Oswald without realizing she was being manipulated to frame Oswald. I'd like to know a whole lot more about Ruth Paine.

I wrote this diary to try to focus attention here on indicators, clear unambiguous indicators, even if there are only a couple, showing that Oswald was being framed pre-assassination; to try to create a filter that would screen out certain "noise".

Edited January 18, 2016 by Jon G. Tidd

[Ron Ecker]

a "middle-aged white man") allegedly told Sawyer fifteen minutes after the assassination that the guy he'd seen running from the rear of the TSBD was 5'10", 165 pounds

Did this witness show Sawyer the tape measure and weight scales that he used?

It would have been nice to have them among the Warren Commission exhibits.

[Sandy Larsen]

Jon,

There is evidence that indicates that the PMO was created post-assassination. And that is the fact the when the FBI reported the PMO had been found, they reported the wrong PMO amount. This wrong amount, $12.78, was widely reported in newspapers in articles describing the money order, whereas the PMO really had a face value of $21.45. The $12.78 amount just happened to match the price of the same rifle without the scope. So it appears that there was really no PMO in existence when it was reported to have been found, and the price given out proved to be problematic to conspirators shortly after the announcement.

I haven't studied this in detail, so I can't explain exactly what happened. But it looks like the conspirators didn't think the thing through well before the announcement was made. Actually, maybe they DID have a PMO in hand but had to remake it once the problem became apparent.

HOWEVER, a fairly reasonable, innocent explanation just came to mind. Perhaps the $21.45 PMO did exist when the FBI announced it had been found. But when they reported it to newspapers, they intentionally gave out the price of the rifle rather than the total price, including shipping. They had gotten this price from a magazine ad, but accidentally picked the price of the rifle without a scope.

This needs to be further evaluated. Jim Hargrove posted at least one of the newspaper accounts.

[Jon G. Tidd]

Sandy,

What you write is important, IMO.

I've come to understand that pre-assassination framing of Oswald is sinister and that post-assassination framing by the U.S. Government or the DPD may have occurred mainly to avoid the appearance of fractured and confused bureaucracies. Avoiding that appearance would have been of paramount importance to Hoover and McCone. It's possible therefore that post-assassination framing and cover-up are noise, not signal. (I use the signal-noise analogy in recognition of your study of digital signal processing.)

[Thomas Graves]

Tommy,

I don't deny that the FBI and CIA were watching Oswald. I agree Sawyer's broadcast description suggests an FBI report on Oswald came into the DPD's possession before 12:30 p.m. on November 22.

But even if these things are facts, they aren't what I'm seeking. I'm seeking to know discrete actions taken before JFK's murder that were taken in anticipation of the murder for the purpose of framing Oswald. And when those actions took place.

For example: [1] If the Hidell PMO was cooked up pre-JFK's murder, it's of far greater interest than if it was cooked up post-murder. Immediately after the murder, FBI agents had a strong motive to hew to Hoover's position. It's clear today FBI agents over the years have lied and falsified. [2] The BYP appear clearly to have been cooked up pre-assassination. They are of great interest, yet so much about them is opinion and conjecture. If they really were taken with the Imperial Reflex, I want to know who took them and when. I want to know who had possession of the Imperial Reflex at each point during 1963. I want to know these things because they would indicate when the framing of Oswald began and who participated in the framing.

It's possible someone such as Ruth Paine participated in the pre-assassination framing of Oswald without realizing she was being manipulated to frame Oswald. I'd like to know a whole lot more about Ruth Paine.

I wrote this diary to try to focus attention here on indicators, clear unambiguous indicators, even if there are only a couple, showing that Oswald was being framed pre-assassination; to try to create a filter that would screen out certain "noise".

Excellent post, Jon.

Glad to see you agree description given Sawyer suggests FBI misinformation re: Oswald got to DPD before 11/22/63.

Regarding Ruth Paine's possible involvement in setting up Oswald, I have two questions: When did the Bad Guys first know JFK would be going to Dallas, and when did they find out he'd be passing in front of the TSBD?

Is it possible that the Bad Guys placed Oswald in the TSBD before they knew for sure which venue JFK would be speaking in that day, and maybe even before they knew he would even be going to Dallas?

I think they may have put Oswald in the TSBD on a contingency basis, on the assumption that their high-powered buddies in Washington and Texas could arrange the trip to Dallas, and the motorcade route in particular, for them.

--Tommy

[Ron Ecker]

When did the Bad Guys first know JFK would be going to Dallas, and when did they find out he'd be passing in front of the TSBD?

A trip by JFK to Texas was first discussed by JFK, Johnson, and Connally on June 5, 1963. According to Connally, the date of the trip was left to the White House. On September 25, White House sources told the Dallas Morning News that the President would visit Texas on November 21 and 22. Reporting the story on September 26, the newspaper quoted the White House as saying the final decision to make the trip was made on the evening of September 24.

[Thomas Graves]

When did the Bad Guys first know JFK would be going to Dallas, and when did they find out he'd be passing in front of the TSBD?

A trip by JFK to Texas was first discussed by JFK, Johnson, and Connally on June 5, 1963. According to Connally, the date of the trip was left to the White House. On September 25, White House sources told the Dallas Morning News that the President would visit Texas on November 21 and 22. Reporting the story on September 26, the newspaper quoted the White House as saying the final decision to make the trip was made on the evening of September 24.

Thanks, Ron.

Oswald applied for work at the TSBD on October 15, and was hired.

http://jfkassassination.net/parnell/chrono.htm

Not that it matters, but when was the earliest that the Bad Guys could have known that the motorcade would be passing in front of the TSBD, even if only a fast-paced drive down Main Street instead of taking the 120-degree turn at Elm and Houston?

--Tommy

Edited January 18, 2016 by Thomas Graves

[Ron Ecker]

Not that it matters, but when was the earliest that the Bad Guys could have known that the motorcade would be passing in front of the TSBD?

--Tommy

I recall reading somewhere that down Main Street to Dealey Plaza was the usual route for motorcades in Dallas.

Now I'm not a marksman (I don't think firing a gun once in my whole life qualifies), but if the motorcade had stayed on Main, wouldn't a shot from the TSBD be just as easy, if not easier, than a shot at a downward moving target on Elm?

Remember (if you've been there), Dealey Plaza is a fairly small place.

[Thomas Graves]

Not that it matters, but when was the earliest that the Bad Guys could have known that the motorcade would be passing in front of the TSBD?

--Tommy

I recall reading somewhere that down Main Street to Dealey Plaza was the usual route for motorcades in Dallas.

Now I'm not a marksman (I don't think firing a gun once in my whole life qualifies), but if the motorcade had stayed on Main, wouldn't a shot from the TSBD be just as easy, if not easier, than a shot at a downward moving target on Elm?

Remember (if you've been there), Dealey Plaza is a fairly small place.

Ron,

It probably would have been going faster than the Elm Street's eleven miles-per-hour, is all, but at least in a straight line.

When was the earliest the Bad Guys could have known for sure that JFK would be lunching and speaking at the Trade Mart Building instead of at the Women's Center?

--Tommy

Edited January 18, 2016 by Thomas Graves