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Robert Prudhomme

Re-Post from ROKC: re Baker entering TSBD

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"How do you know that the motorcycle cop she saw in front of the TSBD was Baker? Maybe she didn't get there until several minutes after the assassination, by which time another motorcycle policeman or motorcycle policemen might have appeared upon the scene." [T. Graves]

Here is your first clue, Thomas. What do you usually find with a motorcycle cop? [bobby P.]

Gosh, Bobby.

Beats the heck outta me. Hmmm.

A donut?

Another motorcycle cop?

--Tommy :sun

Motorcycle cops typically arrive on motorcycles. Was there another motorcycle outside the TSBD?

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From Thomas Graves:

"In the Willis photo, below, disregard the circled-in-red "Black Dog Man" for the moment, but please do note blond-haired Karan Hicks standing "under" the Stemmons Freeway sign, between Carolyn Reed and "Gloria Calvary." Peggy Joyce Hawkins was probably 40 feet up the sidewalk from Hicks."

By "up the sidewalk", I assume you mean toward the TSBD entrance. This would place Hawkins and her four year old child between "Gloria Calvery" and A.J. Millican, who is standing near the easternmost lamp post.

There is one more lamp post east of that one, Robert. It is near the "corner of the park." At least that's the case now.

Unless I misinterpreted you, and you meant that Hawkins was closer to the TUP than Calvery, we should be able to see Ms. Hawkins in Don Roberdeau's Zapruder still, seen below:

ZapruderScarfedline_zps38622bfd.jpg

Now, this may seem strange, and I'll be damned if I can see it now but, I seem to recall a post on this forum, from a long time ago, about observing the movements of a small child next to one of the women numbered and labelled here. Is it possible Gloria Calvery is not the only misidentified person in this photo?

"And what makes you think that "the retaining wall" Hawkins took refuge behind was the short wall across Elm Street Extension from the TSBD? Because it "works" with your theory-in-progress?"

Uh, no, Thomas, I think it has more to do with there being only one retaining wall in that immediate area.

"How do you know that the motorcycle cop she saw in front of the TSBD was Baker? Maybe she didn't get there until several minutes after the assassination, by which time another motorcycle policeman or motorcycle policemen might have appeared upon the scene."

Here is your first clue, Thomas. What do you usually find with a motorcycle cop?

"

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Hi Sandy

Here is the Altgens 6 photo, with A.J. Millican in his hard hat, seen near what I thought was the easternmost lamp post before reaching the TSBD entrance.

altgens6_cropped.jpg

As I pointed out earlier, there is a traffic lamp post on the concrete island, but Thomas tells us that one does not count.

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Hi Sandy

Here is the Altgens 6 photo, with A.J. Millican in his hard hat, seen near what I thought was the easternmost lamp post before reaching the TSBD entrance.

altgens6_cropped.jpg

As I pointed out earlier, there is a traffic lamp post on the concrete island, but Thomas tells us that one does not count.

Hi Bobby!

I'm surprised you haven't noticed the four-year-old child shading it's eyes while watching the motorcade just below and to the right of the red number "10" in the black-and-white Altgen's 6 blowup, above.

The child is also visible at the far left edge of the Weigman film for a split second (just before Weigman starts "wildly" panning back to the right), but unfortunately the child appears to be wearing a dress.

Perhaps you should check it out.

Warning: You'll have to do a lot of very precise "click-click" freeze-framing to catch a frame of the child that isn't blurry.

Also notice (in the Weigman film) that Hard Hat Millican is standing just to the left of the child.

--Tommy :sun

PS The youngster you're probably thinking about down by "Gloria Calvery" was the Chisms' boy, who can be seen standing near the curb, close to his parents in at least one photo or film taken from the other side of Dealey Plaza.

Edited by Thomas Graves

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From Thomas Graves:

"In the Willis photo, below, disregard the circled-in-red "Black Dog Man" for the moment, but please do note blond-haired Karan Hicks standing "under" the Stemmons Freeway sign, between Carolyn Reed and "Gloria Calvary." Peggy Joyce Hawkins was probably 40 feet up the sidewalk from Hicks."

By "up the sidewalk", I assume you mean toward the TSBD entrance. This would place Hawkins and her four year old child between "Gloria Calvery" and A.J. Millican, who is standing near the easternmost lamp post.

Unless I misinterpreted you, and you meant that Hawkins was closer to the TUP than Calvery, we should be able to see Ms. Hawkins in Don Roberdeau's Zapruder still, seen below:

ZapruderScarfedline_zps38622bfd.jpg

Now, this may seem strange, and I'll be damned if I can see it now but, I seem to recall a post on this forum, from a long time ago, about observing the movements of a small child next to one of the women numbered and labelled here. Is it possible Gloria Calvery is not the only misidentified person in this photo?

"And what makes you think that "the retaining wall" Hawkins took refuge behind was the short wall across Elm Street Extension from the TSBD? Because it "works" with your theory-in-progress?"

Uh, no, Thomas, I think it has more to do with there being only one retaining wall in that immediate area.

"How do you know that the motorcycle cop she saw in front of the TSBD was Baker? Maybe she didn't get there until several minutes after the assassination, by which time another motorcycle policeman or motorcycle policemen might have appeared upon the scene."

Here is your first clue, Thomas. What do you usually find with a motorcycle cop?

"

Who is the person marked as no. 2?

Has the person marked as no. 3 got an extra pair of legs? Or maybe it's just my eyesight fooling me...

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From Thomas Graves:

"In the Willis photo, below, disregard the circled-in-red "Black Dog Man" for the moment, but please do note blond-haired Karan Hicks standing "under" the Stemmons Freeway sign, between Carolyn Reed and "Gloria Calvary." Peggy Joyce Hawkins was probably 40 feet up the sidewalk from Hicks."

By "up the sidewalk", I assume you mean toward the TSBD entrance. This would place Hawkins and her four year old child between "Gloria Calvery" and A.J. Millican, who is standing near the easternmost lamp post.

Unless I misinterpreted you, and you meant that Hawkins was closer to the TUP than Calvery, we should be able to see Ms. Hawkins in Don Roberdeau's Zapruder still, seen below:

ZapruderScarfedline_zps38622bfd.jpg

Now, this may seem strange, and I'll be damned if I can see it now but, I seem to recall a post on this forum, from a long time ago, about observing the movements of a small child next to one of the women numbered and labelled here. Is it possible Gloria Calvery is not the only misidentified person in this photo?

"And what makes you think that "the retaining wall" Hawkins took refuge behind was the short wall across Elm Street Extension from the TSBD? Because it "works" with your theory-in-progress?"

Uh, no, Thomas, I think it has more to do with there being only one retaining wall in that immediate area.

"How do you know that the motorcycle cop she saw in front of the TSBD was Baker? Maybe she didn't get there until several minutes after the assassination, by which time another motorcycle policeman or motorcycle policemen might have appeared upon the scene."

Here is your first clue, Thomas. What do you usually find with a motorcycle cop?

"

Who is the person marked as no. 2?

Has the person marked as no. 3 got an extra pair of legs? Or maybe it's just my eyesight fooling me...

Ian,

I believe that's the woman I helped Prudhomme to finally "see" in the Altgens 6 photo, almost completely hidden behind Alonzo. At the time I was speculating that she (i.e., your # 2) might be Gloria Calvery.

https://willyloman.files.wordpress.com/2013/11/altgens-6-ue-large-best-proc1.jpg

--Tommy :sun

PS The interesting thing is that in a different film or photograph taken a few seconds after the assassination, there seems to be a young child standing on the grass near the sidewalk while your # 2 is standing nearby but in the street (Elm Street), watching the limo disappear through the triple underpass.

When I have time I'll find that frame or photo and post it here.

Edited by Thomas Graves

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Hi Sandy

Here is the Altgens 6 photo, with A.J. Millican in his hard hat, seen near what I thought was the easternmost lamp post before reaching the TSBD entrance.

altgens6_cropped.jpg

As I pointed out earlier, there is a traffic lamp post on the concrete island, but Thomas tells us that one does not count.

Robert,

It turns out you're right, that that is the easternmost lamppost in Altgens 6. I was using Google Maps to locate the lampposts. They have been moved from the sidewalk to the grass area. They're not quite where they were before along Elm.

FWIW here's the westernmost lamppost, down past the Stemmons freeway sign. (It is now before the Stemmons sign.).

6793128110_4ecef96101_b.jpg

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From Thomas Graves:

"In the Willis photo, below, disregard the circled-in-red "Black Dog Man" for the moment, but please do note blond-haired Karan Hicks standing "under" the Stemmons Freeway sign, between Carolyn Reed and "Gloria Calvary." Peggy Joyce Hawkins was probably 40 feet up the sidewalk from Hicks."

By "up the sidewalk", I assume you mean toward the TSBD entrance. This would place Hawkins and her four year old child between "Gloria Calvery" and A.J. Millican, who is standing near the easternmost lamp post.

Unless I misinterpreted you, and you meant that Hawkins was closer to the TUP than Calvery, we should be able to see Ms. Hawkins in Don Roberdeau's Zapruder still, seen below:

ZapruderScarfedline_zps38622bfd.jpg

Now, this may seem strange, and I'll be damned if I can see it now but, I seem to recall a post on this forum, from a long time ago, about observing the movements of a small child next to one of the women numbered and labelled here. Is it possible Gloria Calvery is not the only misidentified person in this photo?

"And what makes you think that "the retaining wall" Hawkins took refuge behind was the short wall across Elm Street Extension from the TSBD? Because it "works" with your theory-in-progress?"

Uh, no, Thomas, I think it has more to do with there being only one retaining wall in that immediate area.

"How do you know that the motorcycle cop she saw in front of the TSBD was Baker? Maybe she didn't get there until several minutes after the assassination, by which time another motorcycle policeman or motorcycle policemen might have appeared upon the scene."

Here is your first clue, Thomas. What do you usually find with a motorcycle cop?

"

Who is the person marked as no. 2?

Has the person marked as no. 3 got an extra pair of legs? Or maybe it's just my eyesight fooling me...

Ian,

I believe that's the woman I helped Prudhomme to finally "see" in the Altgens 6 photo, almost completely hidden behind Alonzo. At the time I was speculating that she (i.e., your # 2) might be Gloria Calvery.

https://willyloman.files.wordpress.com/2013/11/altgens-6-ue-large-best-proc1.jpg

--Tommy :sun

PS The interesting thing is that in a different film or photograph taken a few seconds after the assassination, there seems to be a young child standing on the grass near the sidewalk while your # 2 is standing nearby but in the street (Elm Street), watching the limo disappear through the triple underpass.

When I have time I'll find that frame or photo and post it here.

Note that your # 2, labeled as "Calvery?" (# 4), above, is wearing a reddish colored dress. (Click to enlarge)

Calvery.jpg

Here she is again, standing to the left of Hard Hat Millican and with Alonzo in the dark dress behind her and to our left:

willis+5+circled.gif

Finally, here she is standing on the sidewalk and looking towards the Grassy Knoll. Is that a partially-obscured small child on the grass in front of her?

8A3YGRH.jpg

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[...]

ZapruderScarfedline_zps38622bfd.jpg

[...]

Who is the person marked as no. 2?

[...]

--Ian Lloyd

Ian,

I believe that's the woman I helped Prudhomme to finally "see" in the Altgens 6 photo, almost completely hidden behind Alonzo. At the time I was speculating that she (i.e., your # 2) might be Gloria Calvery.

https://willyloman.files.wordpress.com/2013/11/altgens-6-ue-large-best-proc1.jpg

--Tommy :sun

PS The interesting thing is that in a different film or photograph taken a few seconds after the assassination, there seems to be a young child standing on the grass near the sidewalk while # 2 is standing nearby with her back to the camera, looking towards the Grassy Knoll (or watching the limo disappear).

When I have time I'll find that frame or photo and post it here. Edit: See bottom photo, below.

Note that your # 2, labeled as "Calvery?" (# 4), above, is wearing a reddish colored dress. (See Chris Davidson's post # 11 this thread: http://educationforum.ipbhost.com/index.php?showtopic=22197&hl=alonzo and click on the image there to enlarge it tremendously.)

Calvery.jpg

Here she is again, standing to the left of Hard Hat Millican and with Alonzo in the dark dress behind her and to our left (disregard the numbers and the black oblong):

willis+5+circled.gif

Finally, here she is in the center of the photo, standing on the sidewalk near Millican and looking towards the Grassy Knoll. Is that a partially-obscured small child on the grass in front of her?

8A3YGRH.jpg

simplified and bumped

Edited by Thomas Graves

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Finally, here she is in the center of the photo, standing on the sidewalk near Millican and looking towards the Grassy Knoll. Is that a partially-obscured small child on the grass in front of her?

8A3YGRH.jpg

simplified and bumped

You have the eyes of an eagle, Tommy. It sure looks like a child. But I have a hard time believing a mother would allow her child to wander around right after watching somebody get shot.

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Finally, here she is in the center of the photo, standing on the sidewalk near Millican and looking towards the Grassy Knoll. Is that a partially-obscured small child on the grass in front of her?

8A3YGRH.jpg

simplified and bumped

You have the eyes of an eagle, Tommy. It sure looks like a child. But I have a hard time believing a mother would allow her child to wander around right after watching somebody get shot.

Yes, especially considering Mrs. Hawkins stated she and her child were hiding behind a retaining wall immediately after the shooting.

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Finally, here she is in the center of the photo, standing on the sidewalk near Millican and looking towards the Grassy Knoll. Is that a partially-obscured small child on the grass in front of her?

8A3YGRH.jpg

simplified and bumped

You have the eyes of an eagle, Tommy. It sure looks like a child. But I have a hard time believing a mother would allow her child to wander around right after watching somebody get shot.

Yes, especially considering Mrs. Hawkins stated she and her child were hiding behind a retaining wall immediately after the shooting.

Sorry, guys. I'm trying.

I figure if we can find some high school, college, wedding, etc. photos of the four ladies Hawkins was supposedly with, we'll have an idea what they looked like and might be able to spot them on Elm Street.

Apparently Mary Lea Williams (born 1904) was also known as Mary Lea Bisland / Manie [sic] Bisland at one time. Don't know if Williams was her maiden name or her married name.

I'm running into a lot of dead ends so far on both Mary Lea Williams and Mary Sue Dickerson (born in 1931; married Albert D. Dickerson in 1948; divorced in 1974). Haven't done anything yet regarding Billie Clay or Georgiana Hendrix ...

--Tommy :sun

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Re: the Gloria Calvary identification.

As i understand it Gloria was Hispanic

when the woman as identified in the Zapruder frame is seen in profile for a few frames

she appears to be dark skinned.

3-women.jpg

Image9.jpg

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Finally, here she is in the center of the photo, standing on the sidewalk near Millican and looking towards the Grassy Knoll. Is that a partially-obscured small child on the grass in front of her?

8A3YGRH.jpg

simplified and bumped

You have the eyes of an eagle, Tommy. It sure looks like a child. But I have a hard time believing a mother would allow her child to wander around right after watching somebody get shot.

Or, on second thought, could that "child" be Cheryl McKinnon (q.v.) ... uhhh ... Doris Mumford (q.v.) ?

http://educationforum.ipbhost.com/index.php?showtopic=20382

Naw, too far away.

--Tommy :sun

PS Regarding the mysterious Peggy Hawkins, I couldn't have said the following any better myself. --

Peggy Hawkins piques my interest because there are still so many unanswered questions in the wake of her one interview with the FBI. We still don’t know whether it was her or her husband who worked for Allyn and Bacon Publishing Company in the TSBD; why she never met up with her husband, John, to watch the motorcade, as she planned to do; why John wasn’t interviewed by the FBI to determine if he watched the motorcade, despite not meeting up with his wife; and why Hawkins failed to mention she was standing with her four-year-old son, John, Jr. -- author Craig Ciccone

http://www.jfklancer.com/ciccone/faq.html

Not to nitpick, but the report, written in the third person, does say that Mrs. Hawkins had her "small child" with her.

Edited by Thomas Graves

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