John Armstrong blasts the mail order rifle “evidence”

[James DiEugenio]

Aren't both amounts $13, 827.98?

[Jon G. Tidd]

John Armstrong does a masterful job, IMO, of poking holes in the U.S. Government's story about Oswald's buying the rifle.

So much so, based on documents not mere opinions, that he undermines the entire U.S. Government version of the assassination.

Think about it. Armstrong argues convincingly that the FBI fabricated various reports. Furthermore, the facts that the FBI "lost" the Klein's microfilm and the PMO defy belief.

How can anyone here any longer subscribe to "cover-up lite", the notion that there was only some cover up, perhaps harmless cover-up? There was whole-scale cover-up.

[James DiEugenio]

Armstrong argues convincingly that the FBI fabricated various reports. Furthermore, the facts that the FBI "lost" the Klein's microfilm and the PMO defy belief.

Also, where is the stub?

​You know, the one that Mr. Holmes said he found?

[David Von Pein]

John Armstrong does a masterful job, IMO, of poking holes in the U.S. Government's story about Oswald's buying the rifle.

So much so, based on documents not mere opinions, that he undermines the entire U.S. Government version of the assassination.

Think about it. Armstrong argues convincingly that the FBI fabricated various reports. Furthermore, the facts that the FBI "lost" the Klein's microfilm and the PMO defy belief.

Also, where is the stub?

​You know, the one that Mr. Holmes said he found?

The original Klein's microfilm, after being photographed by the authorities, could very well have been returned to Klein's. It probably contained a lot of other information about the various orders Klein's had processed at the same time they processed Oswald's rifle order, and therefore the whole microfilm was likely returned to the possession of its owner--Klein's Sporting Goods. It had served its purpose. The FBI and/or Warren Commission had taken photos of all documents that were on the microfilm which pertained to Oswald and the JFK case. So what purpose would be served by retaining the entire roll of microfilm?

Also....

How do we really KNOW for a fact that these "missing" items are truly MISSING from the National Archives? We all know it's like pulling teeth from a grizzly bear to get permission to see any of the "original" items that are in the National Archives. So I'm just wondering if (just perhaps) some of those "missing" items (like the original money order and the stub) could still be buried somewhere in one of the N.A. buildings someplace (or elsewhere). How can we KNOW for sure they're really missing? ~shrug~

Edited February 21, 2016 by David Von Pein

[James DiEugenio]

The first paragraph is an assumption. Which is what Davey specializes in.

The second is the same. But its even worse.

If something has not turned up in over fifty years, then its a safe bet to say its not there. Especially when certain people--not Davey, who has never been there in his life--have been to NARA and asked for it.

Maybe we should wait another fifty years for it to show up?

Which means we will all be dead and Davey will have won his argument.

Edited February 21, 2016 by James DiEugenio

[Jon G. Tidd]

DVP,

I want to believe you are honest.

I know about advocates.

You are an advocate.

Based on what you see, and I mean see clearly, do you believe beyond a reasonable doubt LHO killed JFK? If so, why?

[David Von Pein]

DVP,

Based on what you see, and I mean see clearly, do you believe beyond a reasonable doubt LHO killed JFK? If so, why?

Absolutely. Oswald killed Kennedy. And Tippit too. And he shot at Walker too. Without doubt---IMO.

I think, Jon, that if you examine just Oswald's own actions on the dates of Nov. 21 and Nov. 22, without even venturing into the area of the "physical evidence" or the eyewitnesses, a good case can be made for Oswald's guilt in both the JFK and Tippit murders.

And when you then ADD IN all the physical evidence (plus the eyewitnesses on both Elm Street and 10th Street), a definite pattern emerges quite clearly.

You can speculate that all of that physical evidence was fake or forged to frame LHO, but how can you fake someone's own actions and movements?

Oswald, in essence, signed his name to the murders of Kennedy and Tippit by acting so incredibly guilty. And we don't need ANY "authorities" (FBI, DPD, WC, etc.) to know without a doubt that Lee Harvey Oswald was acting guilty on 11/22/63.

Don't you agree with that last sentence, Jon?

http://oswald-is-guilty.blogspot.com

Edited February 21, 2016 by David Von Pein

[David Josephs]

Aren't both amounts $13, 827.98?

I was coming back to that... It conflicts with what Wilmouth says was on the Deposit. He also mentions a $6,178 total and only 2 - $21.45 items included in a $1,536.11 "package.

Those amounts do not match the detailed list with 9 - $21.45 items. And the $13K deposit is dated 2/15/62... despite what Waldman claims.

I was talking about closed loop corroboration. I contend that this only item of Kleins evidence which ties it all together is a forgery to account for the 100 rifles Kleins never got including C2766

As a result of the bad copies, something obvious appeared. Where all the #'s where, there was no "paper noise" yet everywhere else there was. Parts of the lines are missing where all these #'s are written in...

this and only this piece of paper connects C2766 with V836 as handwritten on the Order Blank.

And a closeup - This is why Scibor was so reluctant to talk to anyone during HSCA calls...

All Mr DVP need do is show us one other Order Blank, Copy of Order Blank, receipt of shipment, or an actual rifle listed above.

Supposedly 100 40" FC rifles as described by 10 packing slips which were involved in the initial shipment of 5200 rifles to Harborside from Italy while being provided as evidence twice... once by Waldman in March 1964 as evidence of the Feb shipment... and by Louis Feldsott on Nov 22, 1963.

Amazing, right?

A step further... the writing on these slips and on this ledger is very similar, no?

[David Von Pein]

David J.,

Where are you seeing NINE items for $21.45 in Waldman No. 10? I sure don't see nine such items.

Edited February 21, 2016 by David Von Pein

[Jim Hargrove]

Sandy,

See notes in blue:

1. The FBI has the Carcano rifle in their possession at 11:45 PM CST on Friday the 22nd, from which they get the serial number C2766.
   

2. The FBI discovers from a gun dealer in Dallas that Italian surplus WW2 rifles were being distributed by Crescent Firearms in New York City. This leads the FBI to Klein's in Chicago after finding out that Crescent had sold the "C2766" rifle to Klein's. YES, THE FBI FOUND OUT IT WAS SOLD ON 6/18/62. WHY THEN DID THE FBI LATER REPORT THAT CRESCENT SOLD C2766 TO KLEINS IN JANUARY, 1963?
   

3. Klein's records are searched and the "C2766" Internal Invoice is found (what would become "Waldman Deposition Exhibit No. 7"), which provides pertinent information about the sale of Italian rifle No. C2766 for $21.45 to one A. Hidell of Dallas, Texas (via "M.O." [money order]) on March 20, 1963 (which is the date the FBI goes with THEN EXPLAIN WHY AN FBI MEMO, WRITTEN TO THE SECRET SERVICE, DESCRIBES A RIFLE SOLD BY KLEINS THAT WAS SIMILAR TO C2766 THAT WAS PAID FOR WITH A MONEY ORDER ISSUED ON 3/20/63, instead of the date stamped at the very top of invoice--March 13, 1963--which was the date Klein's put the Hidell order through their cash register, as William Waldman explained in his Warren Commission testimony; the March 20 date was, of course, the date the rifle was shipped to Hidell/Oswald) IT WAS ALSO THE DATE ANOTHER RIFLE WAS SOLD BY KLEINS, AND PAID FOR WITH A MONEY ORDER ISSUED ON 3/20/63..
   
   In addition to the internal Klein's Internal Invoice, the FBI also found on microfilm the "Order Letter" (as Curry later called it), which is CE773. The Order Letter is the order form clipped by Oswald out of the Feb. '63 American Rifleman magazine, and the envelope in which it was mailed.
   
   The FBI quickly determined that the writing on the Order Letter was that of Lee Harvey Oswald. YES, AND ACCORDING TO CURRY THE PRICE OF THE RIFLE WAS $12.78, NOT $21.45
   
   [questions: when were the invoice and order letter found? the microfilmed order letter includes the envelope it was mailed in... seriously, Klein's microfilmed even envelopes? why did the search take seven hours?]
   
   Internal Invoice Information: 3/13/63 receipt date; 3/20/63 processing & shipping date; $19.95 rifle cost; $21.45 total cost; C2766 serial number; paid by money order; "W/ 4X SCOPE"
   
   Order Letter Information: Hidell's handwriting; Hidell's address; $19.95 rifle price.
   

4. Somebody connected with the discovery of the Internal Invoice must have transmitted the wrong purchase price to other FBI personnel ($21.95 instead of $21.45), which led to confusion when the FBI and Secret Service began searching for the money order that was used to pay for the rifle. HOW IS THIS POSSIBLE IF THE FBI HAD THE WRITTEN DOCUMENTATION (KLEINS ORDER FORM) ON 11/23/63?
   

5. In a hallway press conference on the night of Nov. 23, Chief Jesse Curry refers to the Order Letter.[question: what Order Letter information does he report?] HE REPORTS THE RIFLE WAS SOLD FOR $12.78
   

6. ???[questions: when did the press get the $12.78 price and 3/20/63 order date information?(REPORTED BY CURRY AND THE PRESS ON 11/23/63) what was the $21.95 I had in my list... I forget... was that reported by the press as well?] THE $21.95 WAS IN AN FBI MEMO TO THE SECRET SERVICE ON 11/23/63
   

7. According to FBI report CD75, on Nov. 23, the following information was received from the VP of Klein's's bank.
   -- On Mar. 15 1963, Klein's had deposited $13,827.98 in its bank. NO CONFIRMATION OF THE DATE OF DEPOSIT/ DEPOSIT SLIP SAID 2/15/63; WALDMAN TOLD THE WC HE COULD NOT SAY WHEN THE DEPOSIT WAS MADE; The deposit included a $21.45 postal money order IT INCLUDED 7 INDIVIDUAL DEPOSITS OF $21.45--NOT ONE
   -- On Mar. 16 the bank had sent the $21.45 PMO to the Federal Reserve Bank of Chicago. NO WAY TO PROVE THIS. NO DOCUMENTATION. NO DATE ON THE MONEY ORDER. It would have been received by the FRB on Mar. 18. PROVE THIS!
   

8. According to SS report CD87, at about 8:30 PM on Nov. 23 a request was issued to locate and obtain postal money order #2,202,130,462 dated 3/12/63 in the amount of $21.45 payable to Klein's by Alek James Hidell. [question: how and when did the SS get the money order number and date?]
   

9. ???[question: anything else?] MANY QUESTIONS: 1) LHO ORDERED 36" RIFLE, RECEIVED 40" RIFLE; 2) LHO TIMECARD SHOWS HE COULD DID NOT LEAVE WORK ON 3/12/63; 3) HOW DID MAILING ENVELOPE GET TO ZONE 12 IN DALLAS? 4) WHY NOT A SINGLE BANK STAMP OR DATE STAMP ON MONEY ORDER? 5) WHY NO DATE OR BANK STAMP ON DEPOSIT SLIP FOR $13,827.98? 6) HOW CAN ANYONE IDENTIFY A $21.45 ENTRY AS A MONEY ORDER ON WALDMAN 10 ? 7) FBI AGENT REPORTED TWO RIFLES FOUND ON THE KLEINS MICROFILM SIMILAR TO C2766, BUT NOTHING ABOUT C2766; WHY ?? 8) WHY DOES WALDMAN ALLEGEDLY TELL THE FBI THE $21.45 MONEY ORDER WAS DEPOSITED TO HIS BANK ON 3/13/63, BUT THEN TELLS THE WC THAT HE CANNOT DETERMINE WHEN THIS DEPOSIT WAS MADE? 9) WHAT HAPPENED TO THE MONEY ORDER STUB, ALLEGEDLY FOUND AT THE DALLAS GPO BY HARRY HOLMES? 10) HOW DID ROBERT JACKSON, EMPLOYEE OF THE NATIONAL ARCHIVES IN ALEXANDRIA, VA., COME INTO POSSESSION OF THE MONEY ORDER ON THE NIGHT OF 11/23/63? 11) WHY DID NEITHER THE FBI NOR THE WC ASK WALDMAN FOR A COPY OF THE KLEINS BANK STATEMENT FOR MARCH, 1963 IN ORDER TO DETERMINE IF AND WHEN A $13.827.98 DEPOSIT WAS MADE TO KLEINS ACCOUNT? 12) WALDMAN GAVE FBI AGENT DOLAN THE KLEINS MICROFILM AND DOLAN GAVE HIM A RECEIPT FOR THE MICROFILM. WHY DOES ANOTHER FBI REPORT SAY THE KLEINS MICROFILM WAS LEFT WITH WALDMAN ON 11/23/63? 13) WHY IS THERE A SS REPORT STATING THAT THE MONEY ORDER, FOUND IN KANSAS CITY, WAS BEING SENT TO WASHINGTON DC, WHILE A 2ND MONEY ORDER WAS FOUND IN ALEXANDRIA, VA? 14) WHY WAS NEITHER FBI AGENTS DOLAN, TOEDT, OR MAHAN CALLED TO TESTIFY BEFORE THE WC? 15) WHAT HAPPENED TO THE INFORMATION CONCERNING A RIFLE, SIMILAR TO C2766, THAT WAS SOLD BY KLEINS IN LATE MARCH, 1963, AND PAID FOR WITH A MONEY ORDER ISSUED ON 3/20/63? 16) EXPLAIN WHY, IF THE FBI HAD KLEIN'S ORDER FORM, THE $21.45 MONEY ORDER, ETC., ON 11/23/63, DID THE FBI NOT ANNOUNCE THIS TO THE PRESS? WHY DID THEY WAIT UNTIL 11/29/63? 17) EXPLAIN THE MARCH 20 NOTATION ON RUTH PAINES CALENDAR "LHO PURCHASED A RIFLE" 18) EXPLAIN WHEN AND WHERE OSWALD PURCHASED OR OBTAINED A CLIP AND AMMUNITION FOR THE RIFLE 19) EXPLAIN WHAT HAPPENED TO THE KLEINS MICROFILM WHILE IN FBI CUSTODY? 20) EXPLAIN WHAT HAPPENED TO THE POSTAL MONEY ORDER WHILE IN FBI CUSTODY? 21) EXPLAIN WHY THE FBI REPORTS, WHICH REFER TO INTERVIEWS WITH WALDMAN AND WILMOUTH, WERE NOT SIGNED BY THE REPORTING AGENT 22) IF CRESCENT DELIVERED C2766 TO KLEINS IN JANUARY, 1963, THEN EXPLAIN WHAT HAPPENED TO THE C2766 THAT CRESCENT SOLD TO KLEINS ON 6/18/63 22) WHY WAS LOUIS FELDSOTT NOT INTERVIEWED BY THE FBI OR WARREN COMMISSION?

This all seems consistent so far. I need to insert the information reported by the press and answer the questions in red. Any help would be appreciated.

Edited February 21, 2016 by Jim Hargrove

[Robert Prudhomme]

If LHO stated on the order form he was enclosing $19.95, how did he end up purchasing a money order for $21.45?

Its because there was a 1. 50 handling charge.

Yes, I know there was a $1.50 shipping and handling charge that brought the total up to $21.45. I just find it odd that LHO would not have entered $21.45 in the space labelled "Enclosed is....".

I live in northern Canada in a quite remote place, far from good shopping in the cities and, before the advent of the Internet and Ebay, I ordered many items in exactly the same way LHO allegedly ordered the rifle, by cutting out an order form from a magazine (if we couldn't get it from the Sears catalogue).

I can't see LHO being so careless as to forget the S & H charges. Even if he did, and only saw his mistake when he purchased the money order, wouldn't he likely have crossed out $19.95 and written in $21.45?

[David Von Pein]

I just find it odd that LHO would not have entered $21.45 in the space labelled "Enclosed is....".

[...]

I can't see LHO being so careless as to forget the S & H charges. Even if he did, and only saw his mistake when he purchased the money order, wouldn't he likely have crossed out $19.95 and written in $21.45?

Bob,

That's a good point you made about the $19.95 entry on Oswald's order form. I hadn't really thought about it before, but the box for that entry does say "ENCLOSED IS". It's not a box for "ITEM PRICE". And Oswald enclosed $21.45, not just $19.95. So I wonder why he wrote $19.95 in there?

And since CTers think Oswald's writing was faked on that order form, the CTers I guess would need to ask, Why would the plotters write $19.95 in there, when "they" knew they were going to fake a money order for $21.45? ~shrug time~

There is some additional writing of some kind right next to Oswald's $19.95. I can't make out what that says. Perhaps he wrote in "+ $1.50" to account for the S&H.

~another shrug~

I can't find any information in the WC volumes about what is written next to the $19.95. There's nothing about it in the testimony of either William Waldman or James Cadigan.

Edited February 22, 2016 by David Von Pein

[Robert Prudhomme]

I just find it odd that LHO would not have entered $21.45 in the space labelled "Enclosed is....".

[...]

I can't see LHO being so careless as to forget the S & H charges. Even if he did, and only saw his mistake when he purchased the money order, wouldn't he likely have crossed out $19.95 and written in $21.45?

Bob,

That's a good point you made about the $19.95 entry on Oswald's order form. I hadn't really thought about it before, but the box for that entry does say "ENCLOSED IS". It's not a box for "ITEM PRICE". And Oswald enclosed $21.45, not just $19.95. So I wonder why he wrote $19.95 in there.

And since CTers think Oswald's writing was faked on that order form, the CTers I guess would need to ask, Why would the plotters write $19.95 in there, when "they" knew they were going to fake a money order for $21.45? ~shrug time~

There is some additional writing of some kind right next to Oswald's $19.95. I can't make out what that says. Perhaps he wrote in "+ $1.50" to account for the S&H.

~another shrug~

Yes, I was trying to decipher what the writing to the right of $19.95 said, too, but with no luck, not even on the PBS order form. It doesn't look like "$1.50 - S & H" though, at least not to me.

[Richard Price]

I am not positive and it seems to have no reason to be there, but it looks to me to say "USD 20".

[David Von Pein]

Richard,

I don't think it's a "20". Part of what you think might be a "20" is really an "X" where Oswald has put an X in the box reserved for "Money Order". Don't you think?

Edited February 22, 2016 by David Von Pein