John Armstrong blasts the mail order rifle “evidence”

[Robert Prudhomme]

Sandy,

The FBI didn't get the "wrong order" from the microfilm. There WAS NO ORDER FOR $21.95 for the C2766 rifle. That was merely a slipped digit. And Harry Holmes talks about that mistake in his testimony too. That was one of the reasons it took a little longer to find the $21.45 Hidell money order --- because they were searching (in vain) for the wrong amount ($21.95). Once they realized what the correct figure was--$21.45--they found it very quickly.

Do you think Waldman No. 7 is a fake document, Sandy? It clearly says $21.45 on it. And it also says C2766. And it says A. Hidell. And Italian Carbine. And William Waldman testified in detail about that order form. Was he a plotter too?

jfk-archives.blogspot.com/2014/12/oswald-ordered-rifle.html

I think you have a slipped digit, Davie; possibly several.

[Jim Hargrove]

No, it's just that David W. Belin and Wesley J. Liebeler had the common sense (and rational way of thinking about the evidence) that people like James DiEugenio and John Armstrong sorely lack.

....

Because of the many things that prove the paper trail was legitimate and genuine. Such as: Oswald's verified writing on various pieces of that paper trail (including the money order and the CE773 order form). Plus, the Klein's "Pay To The Order" stamp on the back of the money order. Plus Waldman Exhibit No. 7. Plus the fact that Belin and Liebeler knew for a fact that the money order had been located in just exactly the place where it should have been found if it had been processed properly--in Alexandria.

....

The FBI "verified" Oswald's handwriting on the order form, eh? Let's take a look at that "verified" handwriting:

Sure looks like this "verified" handwriting indicates $19.95!

So how come hundreds of daily newspapers and radio and television stations across America and the world said for nearly a week after the assassination that the "verified" handwriting was for a $12.78 rifle... one that was bought a week after the above order form arrived at Kleins?

Guess I just don't have enough "common sense" to see how little there is to be concerned about here.

[Jim Hargrove]

And now for something Completely Legitimate....

This was posted by Sandy Larsen in another thread, but it certainly belongs here:

[James DiEugenio]

JH: The FBI "verified" Oswald's handwriting on the order form, eh? Let's take a look at that "verified" handwriting:

That was rich.

[Sandy Larsen]

1. The FBI has the serial number, C2766. (I'm not sure how they got that, but I'll try to understand that later.)

2. The FBI guys search the Kleins microfilm for seven hours and find what they THINK they are looking for... an order with C2766 printed on it. (Even though it wasn't)

1. The FBI did, indeed, have the serial number. (They had the rifle in their possession at 11:45 PM CST on Friday, you know. So why would you be surprised they knew the serial number? ...

Oops! I mis-wrote that sentence.

When I wrote the word "that", my mind was thinking "the connection between the serial number and Kleins."

So what I meant was, "I'm not sure how they got the connection between the serial number and Kleins." (I did remember how a short while later and posted it.)

[David Josephs]

So what I meant was, "I'm not sure how they got the connection between the serial number and Kleins."

I posted about Nat Pinkston, an FBI agent who claims to have run into DAY as he was leaving the TSBD and got the Serial #. He called a local gun dealer who said if they didn't sell it, Klein's in Chicago did.

No one seems to have mentioned Pinkston in their narrative. And I did find the FBI report of his from the 22nd ... yet no one else's story includes this man....

Interview of Former Special Agent of the FBI

Nat A. Pinkston (1940 – 1968)

By Brian R. Hollstein

On July 19, 2007

Pinkston: So I was the first Agent there. And I got up to the sixth floor

where they were searching and I ran into Carl Day, who I knew

quite well, who was head of the Identification Division at the

Police Department.

Hollstein: Uh-huh. Now this was at the Book Repository?

Pinkston: Yes. And he was holding a rifle in his hands. He told me that

they’d just found the rifle and that they thought it was the one

used in the assassination. So I took a complete description of

the gun, from the gun, while he was holding it and I started out

to try and identify the gun.

Well, I had an informant who was a pawn broker and a

licensed gun dealer, very well acquainted with firearms, he’d

been in business a long time. And I went to him and described

the gun to him and he said, “Well, there were a lot of those

guns sold and they were sold in Dallas by Titche-Goettinger

Company.” Which was a large department store and it had a

sporting goods department. So, I went to them and they had

excellent records. They went through them and they said, “We

have no record on the gun of that serial number. But, if we

didn’t sell it, it almost had to come from Klein Sporting Goods

Store in Chicago.” And he gave me the number of Klein’s …

and the address. So I went back to the office and we sent a

teletype to Chicago to check at Klein’s Sporting Goods. Well,

by this time of the day, they had closed up for the weekend.

So, one of the Agents there went out and picked up the

manager of the store and took him back to the store, and in

about fifteen minutes they had a record that this gun. This

particular rifle had been sold by Klein Sporting Goods Store to

A. J. Hidell, to a Post Office Box in Dallas.

[Jim Hargrove]

--Handwriting, analyzed by the Federal Bureau of Investigation

in Washington as Oswald's on an assumed-name order to a

Chicago mail order house last March 20 for a $12.78 rifle,

similar to the assassination weapon.

Oswald, Chief Curry said, continued to insist that he had never

owned a rifle.

--New York Times Service, Nov. 23, 1963

(emphasis added)

[Sandy Larsen]

What specifically is the "order" anyway? Is it the coupon cut out from the magazine? The money order? Both?

The "order letter" that Chief Jesse Curry refers to in his hallway press conference on the night of Nov. 23 is CE773, which is the microfilm of the order form clipped by Oswald out of the Feb. '63 American Rifleman magazine. That's the microfilmed document that was the basis for the FBI's findings that the "order letter" had Oswald's writing on it. That order form, of course, doesn't have the $21.45 figure on it either. Nor does it have $12.78 on it. It has $19.95 on it. (Shall we dance some more over those three figures?)

David, can you write a quick summary for me so that I can understand what happened. I'll write one up right now to give you an idea of what I want:

1. The FBI has the serial number, C2766. (I'm not sure how they got that, but I'll try to understand that later.)

2. The FBI guys search the Kleins microfilm for seven hours and find what they THINK they are looking for... an order with C2766 printed on it. (Even though it wasn't)

3. The order is dated March 20 (now we're talking about the money order, right?) for $21.95.

4. The FBI authenticated Oswald's handwriting.

5. They discover they had the wrong order. (But then how did they authenticate Oswald's handwriting??)

David, I don't know how to fix the above with your solution to the problem. You say they were searching for an order with the wrong price. But I thought they were searching for an order with a given serial number, C2766, not with a given price.

1. The FBI did, indeed, have the serial number. (They had the rifle in their possession at 11:45 PM CST on Friday, you know. So why would you be surprised they knew the serial number? And even if they didn't have the rifle themselves, the FBI could have simply telephoned the DPD and gotten the number from them at any time on Nov. 22....couldn't they?)

2. The FBI discovers from a gun dealer in Dallas that Italian surplus WW2 rifles were being distributed by Crescent Firearms in New York City. This leads the FBI to Klein's in Chicago after finding out that Crescent had sold the "C2766" rifle to Klein's.

3. The Klein's records are searched and the "C2766" invoice is found (via what would soon become "Waldman Deposition Exhibit No. 7"), which provides all the pertinent information about the sale of Italian rifle No. C2766 for $21.45 to one A. Hidell of Dallas, Texas (via "M.O." [Money Order]) on March 20, 1963 (which is the date the FBI goes with, instead of the date stamped at the very top of Waldman No. 7--March 13, 1963--which was the date Klein's put the Hidell order through their cash register, as William Waldman explained in his Warren Commission testimony; the March 20 date was, of course, the date the rifle was shipped to Hidell/Oswald).

4. Somebody connected with the discovery of the "Waldman No. 7" invoice must have transmitted the wrong purchase price to other FBI personnel ($21.95 instead of $21.45), which led to confusion when the FBI and Secret Service began searching for the money order that was used to pay for the rifle.

5. In addition to the internal Klein's invoice (Waldman No. 7), the FBI also found the "order letter" (as Curry called it), which is CE773. They quickly determined that the writing on the order form was that of Lee Harvey Oswald.

In short, there was no "wrong order". Somebody just wrote down or transmitted to somebody the wrong purchase price after the discovery of Waldman No. 7. But even though some officials had the wrong price, there were others who knew the correct price of $21.45 for the Hidell rifle order, because we find the correct figure being written in two separate reports (connected with the discovery of the money order) authored by both the FBI and the Secret Service on November 23 -- CD75 and CD87.

Also see:

jfk-archives.blogspot.com/2012/08/the-postmark-on-commission-exhibit-773.html

Thanks David. I appreciate your effort.

I am going to keep your alternate explanation and make improvements, additions, and corrections as needed. You can always correct me if I am wrong, as anybody else can.

Alternate Explanation for Incorrect Rifle Information Being Reported

Based on David Von Pein's Post 116 in this Thread

Version 1 Date: 2/21/16

1. The FBI has the Carcano rifle in their possession at 11:45 PM CST on Friday the 22nd, from which they get the serial number C2766.

2. The FBI discovers from a gun dealer in Dallas that Italian surplus WW2 rifles were being distributed by Crescent Firearms in New York City. This leads the FBI to Klein's in Chicago after finding out that Crescent had sold the "C2766" rifle to Klein's.

3. Klein's records are searched and the "C2766" Internal Invoice is found (what would become "Waldman Deposition Exhibit No. 7"), which provides pertinent information about the sale of Italian rifle No. C2766 for $21.45 to one A. Hidell of Dallas, Texas (via "M.O." [money order]) on March 20, 1963 (which is the date the FBI goes with, instead of the date stamped at the very top of invoice--March 13, 1963--which was the date Klein's put the Hidell order through their cash register, as William Waldman explained in his Warren Commission testimony; the March 20 date was, of course, the date the rifle was shipped to Hidell/Oswald).

   In addition to the internal Klein's Internal Invoice, the FBI also found on microfilm the "Order Letter" (as Curry later called it), which is CE773. The Order Letter is the order form clipped by Oswald out of the Feb. '63 American Rifleman magazine, and the envelope in which it was mailed.

   The FBI quickly determined that the writing on the Order Letter was that of Lee Harvey Oswald.

   [questions: when were the invoice and order letter found? the microfilmed order letter includes the envelope it was mailed in... seriously, Klein's microfilmed even envelopes? why did the search take seven hours?]

   Internal Invoice Information: 3/13/63 receipt date; 3/20/63 processing & shipping date; $19.95 rifle cost; $21.45 total cost; C2766 serial number; paid by money order; "W/ 4X SCOPE"

   Order Letter Information: Hidell's handwriting; Hidell's address; $19.95 rifle price.

4. Somebody connected with the discovery of the Internal Invoice must have transmitted the wrong purchase price to other FBI personnel ($21.95 instead of $21.45), which led to confusion when the FBI and Secret Service began searching for the money order that was used to pay for the rifle.

5. In a hallway press conference on the night of Nov. 23, Chief Jesse Curry refers to the Order Letter. [question: what Order Letter information does he report?]

6. ??? [questions: when did the press get the $12.78 price and 3/20/63 order date information? what was the $21.95 I had in my list... I forget... was that reported by the press as well?]

7. According to FBI report CD75, on Nov. 23, the following information was received from the VP of Klein's's bank.

   -- On Mar. 15 1963, Klein's had deposited $13,827.98 in its bank. The deposit included a $21.45 postal money order.

   -- On Mar. 16 the bank had sent the $21.45 PMO to the Federal Reserve Bank of Chicago. It would have been received by the FRB on Mar. 18.

8. According to SS report CD87, at about 8:30 PM on Nov. 23 a request was issued to locate and obtain postal money order #2,202,130,462 dated 3/12/63 in the amount of $21.45 payable to Klein's by Alek James Hidell. [question: how and when did the SS get the money order number and date?]

9. ??? [question: anything else?]

This all seems consistent so far. I need to insert the information reported by the press and answer the questions in red. Any help would be appreciated.

DVP said to see this also:

jfk-archives.blogspot.com/2012/08/the-postmark-on-commission-exhibit-773.html

[David Josephs]

What specifically is the "order" anyway? Is it the coupon cut out from the magazine? The money order? Both?

The "order letter" that Chief Jesse Curry refers to in his hallway press conference on the night of Nov. 23 is CE773, which is the microfilm of the order form clipped by Oswald out of the Feb. '63 American Rifleman magazine. That's the microfilmed document that was the basis for the FBI's findings that the "order letter" had Oswald's writing on it. That order form, of course, doesn't have the $21.45 figure on it either. Nor does it have $12.78 on it. It has $19.95 on it. (Shall we dance some more over those three figures?)

David, can you write a quick summary for me so that I can understand what happened. I'll write one up right now to give you an idea of what I want:

1. The FBI has the serial number, C2766. (I'm not sure how they got that, but I'll try to understand that later.)

2. The FBI guys search the Kleins microfilm for seven hours and find what they THINK they are looking for... an order with C2766 printed on it. (Even though it wasn't)

3. The order is dated March 20 (now we're talking about the money order, right?) for $21.95.

4. The FBI authenticated Oswald's handwriting.

5. They discover they had the wrong order. (But then how did they authenticate Oswald's handwriting??)

David, I don't know how to fix the above with your solution to the problem. You say they were searching for an order with the wrong price. But I thought they were searching for an order with a given serial number, C2766, not with a given price.

1. The FBI did, indeed, have the serial number. (They had the rifle in their possession at 11:45 PM CST on Friday, you know. So why would you be surprised they knew the serial number? And even if they didn't have the rifle themselves, the FBI could have simply telephoned the DPD and gotten the number from them at any time on Nov. 22....couldn't they?)

2. The FBI discovers from a gun dealer in Dallas that Italian surplus WW2 rifles were being distributed by Crescent Firearms in New York City. This leads the FBI to Klein's in Chicago after finding out that Crescent had sold the "C2766" rifle to Klein's.

3. The Klein's records are searched and the "C2766" invoice is found (via what would soon become "Waldman Deposition Exhibit No. 7"), which provides all the pertinent information about the sale of Italian rifle No. C2766 for $21.45 to one A. Hidell of Dallas, Texas (via "M.O." [Money Order]) on March 20, 1963 (which is the date the FBI goes with, instead of the date stamped at the very top of Waldman No. 7--March 13, 1963--which was the date Klein's put the Hidell order through their cash register, as William Waldman explained in his Warren Commission testimony; the March 20 date was, of course, the date the rifle was shipped to Hidell/Oswald).

4. Somebody connected with the discovery of the "Waldman No. 7" invoice must have transmitted the wrong purchase price to other FBI personnel ($21.95 instead of $21.45), which led to confusion when the FBI and Secret Service began searching for the money order that was used to pay for the rifle.

5. In addition to the internal Klein's invoice (Waldman No. 7), the FBI also found the "order letter" (as Curry called it), which is CE773. They quickly determined that the writing on the order form was that of Lee Harvey Oswald.

In short, there was no "wrong order". Somebody just wrote down or transmitted to somebody the wrong purchase price after the discovery of Waldman No. 7. But even though some officials had the wrong price, there were others who knew the correct price of $21.45 for the Hidell rifle order, because we find the correct figure being written in two separate reports (connected with the discovery of the money order) authored by both the FBI and the Secret Service on November 23 -- CD75 and CD87.

Also see:

jfk-archives.blogspot.com/2012/08/the-postmark-on-commission-exhibit-773.html

Thanks David. I appreciate your effort.

I am going to keep your alternate explanation and make improvements, additions, and corrections as needed. You can always correct me if I am wrong, as anybody else can.

Alternate Explanation for Incorrect Rifle Information Being Reported

Based on David Von Pein's Post 116 in this Thread

Version 1 Date: 2/21/16

1. The FBI has the Carcano rifle in their possession at 11:45 PM CST on Friday the 22nd, from which they get the serial number C2766.

2. The FBI discovers from a gun dealer in Dallas that Italian surplus WW2 rifles were being distributed by Crescent Firearms in New York City. This leads the FBI to Klein's in Chicago after finding out that Crescent had sold the "C2766" rifle to Klein's.

3. Klein's records are searched and the "C2766" Internal Invoice is found (what would become "Waldman Deposition Exhibit No. 7"), which provides pertinent information about the sale of Italian rifle No. C2766 for $21.45 to one A. Hidell of Dallas, Texas (via "M.O." [money order]) on March 20, 1963 (which is the date the FBI goes with, instead of the date stamped at the very top of invoice--March 13, 1963--which was the date Klein's put the Hidell order through their cash register, as William Waldman explained in his Warren Commission testimony; the March 20 date was, of course, the date the rifle was shipped to Hidell/Oswald).

   In addition to the internal Klein's Internal Invoice, the FBI also found on microfilm the "Order Letter" (as Curry later called it), which is CE773. The Order Letter is the order form clipped by Oswald out of the Feb. '63 American Rifleman magazine, and the envelope in which it was mailed.

   The FBI quickly determined that the writing on the Order Letter was that of Lee Harvey Oswald.

   [questions: when were the invoice and order letter found? the microfilmed order letter includes the envelope it was mailed in... seriously, Klein's microfilmed even envelopes? why did the search take seven hours?]

   Internal Invoice Information: 3/13/63 receipt date; 3/20/63 processing & shipping date; $19.95 rifle cost; $21.45 total cost; C2766 serial number; paid by money order; "W/ 4X SCOPE"

   Order Letter Information: Hidell's handwriting; Hidell's address; $19.95 rifle price.

4. Somebody connected with the discovery of the Internal Invoice must have transmitted the wrong purchase price to other FBI personnel ($21.95 instead of $21.45), which led to confusion when the FBI and Secret Service began searching for the money order that was used to pay for the rifle.

5. In a hallway press conference on the night of Nov. 23, Chief Jesse Curry refers to the Order Letter. [question: what Order Letter information does he report?]

6. ??? [questions: when did the press get the $12.78 price and 3/20/63 order date information? what was the $21.95 I had in my list... I forget... was that reported by the press as well?]

7. According to FBI report CD75, on Nov. 23, the following information was received from the VP of Klein's's bank.

   -- On Mar. 15 1963, Klein's had deposited $13,827.98 in its bank. The deposit included a $21.45 postal money order.

   -- On Mar. 16 the bank had sent the $21.45 PMO to the Federal Reserve Bank of Chicago. It would have been received by the FRB on Mar. 18.

8. According to SS report CD87, at about 8:30 PM on Nov. 23 a request was issued to locate and obtain postal money order #2,202,130,462 dated 3/12/63 in the amount of $21.45 payable to Klein's by Alek James Hidell. [question: how and when did the SS get the money order number and date?]

9. ??? [question: anything else?]

This all seems consistent so far. I need to insert the information reported by the press and answer the questions in red. Any help would be appreciated.

DVP said to see this also:

jfk-archives.blogspot.com/2012/08/the-postmark-on-commission-exhibit-773.html

Let me see about each of these points:

1. The assumption is the FBI is not aware of the serial # until 11:45pm 11/22.

An FBI agent Charles Brown receives the weapon in the mid afternoon along with Drain who was there at the time

2. When did they get this info Randy? if they only know about it by midnight who did they talk to in Dallas? Pinkston tells a story as well, as I posted. The FBI supposedly shows up at Kleins around 10pm Friday night, 11pm DC time and 10pm Dallas time...

3. [questions: when were the invoice and order letter found? the microfilmed order letter includes the envelope it was mailed in... seriously, Klein's microfilmed even envelopes? why did the search take seven hours?]

Great question. Depends on which FBI report you believe. One with all three FBI agents claims Waldman kept the film for safekeeping - to be subpeonaed if need be. The other, virtually identical report - same day, same subject - only has FBI SA DOLAN on it. On this one the film IS taken, and ultimately copied with a copy given back to Waldman.

Of course it makes no sense that the Envelope would be microfilmed but not the Postal Money Order. Since the PMO was not related to a real life transaction it would not be on that microfilm - which is no longer in its case at the Archives

4. There was no confusion Randy. It appears from this report it was just a typo: http://www.history-matters.com/archive/jfk/wc/wcvols/wh23/html/WH_Vol23_0226a.htm since there refer to the $21.45 a number of times and do not mention the discrepancy

5. The "Order Letter" is the "Coupon I believe" and he says $12.78 based on the info acquired by Holmes - the wrong ad from the wrong magazine - thanks to Martha Moyer's article

6. see #5

7. I found 9 $21.45's on that deposit dated in February - and also the Wilmouth FBI report mentions totals and subtotals that do not appear on these records

8. http://ctka.net/2015/JosephsMOTimeline.pdf is my PMO timeline. WCD87 p118 https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=10490#relPageId=118&tab=page gives us a time the PMO is first mentioned in an order from the SS Chief Paterni to FIND IT.

This is when the amazing Marks>Jackson story is offered where these two men get into the Archives on Sat night and find the PMO.

During the day on Sat Waldman calls SSSA GRIFFITHS in Chicago and tells him about the FBI coming and the $21.45 PMO.

According to Holmes he had the PMO stub with the amount and number - except that's not in evidence nor is the name of the person finding the stub....

Randy - not sure if you also read my Rifle work. John and I see things a little differently in a few areas.

I'm not sure what you exactly presented above as an argument for or against anything. DVP is a devout believer of the gov't lies with a faith unmatched. But the evidence never backs him up - and in fact usually does the refuting on face value.

The Evidence IS the Conspiracy... can't say it any plainer than that.

DJ

Edited February 21, 2016 by David Josephs

[James DiEugenio]

David:

1. HIs name is SANDY! Not Randy.

2. DId everyone note the date of the FBI agent Pinkston's interview?

You got it, 2007.

He had 40 years to get it together.

3. I love this one:

Of course it makes no sense that the Envelope would be microfilmed but not the Postal Money Order. Since the PMO was not related to a real life transaction it would not be on that microfilm - which is no longer in its case at the Archives

4. And over at DPF, David makes the point about this vacuum: Why is there no info to be found today about any of the other rifles in that 100 rifle shipment? Not one.

Why?

5. David, I think Waldman 10 is dated March not February. Right? The extra deposit slip is dated in February.

You found nine. Wow.

That caption in the upper right, is still too small when you expand it. Can you print it separately or translate it?

Edited February 21, 2016 by James DiEugenio

[Robert Prudhomme]

If LHO stated on the order form he was enclosing $19.95, how did he end up purchasing a money order for $21.45?

[James DiEugenio]

If LHO stated on the order form he was enclosing $19.95, how did he end up purchasing a money order for $21.45?

Its because there was a 1. 50 handling charge.

[David Von Pein]

This picture of the Klein's order form is not the one Oswald used. This one was created by PBS-TV in 1993. More here....

http://jfk-archives.blogspot.com/2014/09/jfk-assassination-arguments-part-794.html

Edited February 21, 2016 by David Von Pein

[David Von Pein]

Curry talks about the "order letter" at 26:50....

[David Josephs]

Yes.. Sandy... Sorry Sandy, I was also replying to a Randy on Facebook.... my bad.

There is a 11/24/63 report - dubious as it looks - from Pinkston

The coupon was created with an attempt at closeness

It was dated Feb yet claimed to be March after the PMO was rec'd. And you'll notice the amounts do not match...