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Jim Hargrove

John Armstrong blasts the mail order rifle “evidence”

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In a new write-up just completed today, JA shows how evidence for the mail order rifle was clearly fabricated. Highlights include:


* Records indicating Oswald never left Jaggars-Chiles-Stovall the morning of 3/12/63 to travel several miles to buy and mail the magic Postal money order that was never endorsed or date stamped by a bank or other financial institution.


* Proof that the FBI for nearly a week (after allegedly analyzing the Oswald/Hidell handwriting on a Klein's order form) couldn't decide whether the gun cost $21.95, $12.78, or $21.45.


* Proof that the FBI fabricated and often backdated numerous reports and other “evidence” about the alleged payment for the weapon that allegedly killed JFK. Original Klein's microfilm and the original postal money order disappeared while in FBI custody.


* Real evidence that Dallas postal inspector/FBI informant Harry Holmes was intimately involved in fabricating evidence for the mail order rifle.



CLICK HERE to read John's new write-up:




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I find the Harry Dean Holmes document as an FBI informant peculiar, it differs from the ones I post below, in which Holmes is attributed T2 and T10

I also see some missing on these two and also a set missing on Armstrong's list, T-7 to T-12 are absent from his, although his shows T-13 to T-16 and the ones below do not show them.

edit: by the looks of it the document Armstrong posted is a stitch job from two pages...you can see this clearly between the T-6 and T-13 the second column does not allign

FBI%20105-82555%20Oswald%20HQ%20File,%20FBI%20105-82555%20Oswald%20HQ%20File,%20

Armstrong document

Informants.jpg

Edited by Bart Kamp

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I find the Harry Dean Holmes document as an FBI informant peculiar, it differs from the ones I post below, in which Holmes is attributed T2 and T10

I also see some missing on these two and also a set missing on Armstrong's list, T-7 to T-12 are absent from his, although his shows T-13 to T-16 and the ones below do not show them.

edit: by the looks of it the document Armstrong posted is a stitch job from two pages...you can see this clearly between the T-6 and T-13 the second column does not allign

FBI%20105-82555%20Oswald%20HQ%20File,%20FBI%20105-82555%20Oswald%20HQ%20File,%20

Armstrong document

Informants.jpg

Barto,

Nice catch.

--Tommy :sun

Edited by Thomas Graves

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In a new write-up just completed today, JA shows how evidence for the mail order rifle was clearly fabricated. Highlights include:
* Records indicating Oswald never left Jaggars-Chiles-Stovall the morning of 3/12/63 to travel several miles to buy and mail the magic Postal money order that was never endorsed or date stamped by a bank or other financial institution.
* Proof that the FBI for nearly a week (after allegedly analyzing the Oswald/Hidell handwriting on a Klein's order form) couldn't decide whether the gun cost $21.95, $12.78, or $21.45.
* Proof that the FBI fabricated and often backdated numerous reports and other “evidence” about the alleged payment for the weapon that allegedly killed JFK. Original Klein's microfilm and the original postal money order disappeared while in FBI custody.
* Real evidence that Dallas postal inspector/FBI informant Harry Holmes was intimately involved in fabricating evidence for the mail order rifle.
CLICK HERE to read John's new write-up:

"With the original Kleins microfilm in hand the FBI could easily copy and fabricate a Klein's order form to show that Oswald (Hidell) purchased a 40" Italian rifle (C2766) from Kleins. They could easily show that Oswald paid for the rifle with a $21.45 postal money order. And they could create and backdate FBI reports to create the illusion that FBI agents "found" information relating to Oswald's purchase of the rifle on Klein's microfilm. They needed only 3 items to suddenly "appear" on the microfilm--a blank Klein's order coupon (from a sports magazine), a Klein's order form, and a stamped and "dated" mailing envelope."

"The FBI needed to create reports that showed Crescent sold C2766 to Klein's, and then re-sold that rifle to Oswald. All documentation had to be dated after Crescent Firearms' sold C2766 to Klein's (after June 18, 1962), but before April 10, 1963, when Oswald allegedly used this rifle to fire shots at General Edwin Walker. The FBI's first step was to ignore the sale of C2766 by Crescent to Kleins on June 18, 1962, and show that C2766 was shipped to Kleins in early 1963."

And so on... No doubt there were huge gymnastics performed by the FBI during those first few fraught hours after the assassination. The order had come down from above - nail Oswald. And only Oswald. Documents are then tortuously fabricated to create a narrative consistent with that. There is without doubt more than a glimmer of truth in this article and it shows the kind of gross falsification that was needed to arrive at a politically 'safe solution'.

Question though: in retrospect, if they had had the resources wouldn't it have been neater to have simply found a doppelganger and have HIM go and buy the damn rifle?

There has been talk of such a doppelganger using Oswald's name buying trucks, going fishing and being interviewed when it was dangerous for the plot to do so. Yet here was a golden opportunity to actually use him in such a way as to totally incriminate Oswald but the plotters preferred and chose the above frantic sequence of events. The person who everyone was fooled into believing was Oswald (presumably because of 'Lee's' very close resemblance) could have been used to buy the gun from any shop in Dallas. Get him to make a scene whilst doing it and immediately there is a link between the gun, the seller and the buyer...that is, Oswald.

I wonder why they didn't do that...

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In a new write-up just completed today, JA shows how evidence for the mail order rifle was clearly fabricated. Highlights include:
* Records indicating Oswald never left Jaggars-Chiles-Stovall the morning of 3/12/63 to travel several miles to buy and mail the magic Postal money order that was never endorsed or date stamped by a bank or other financial institution.
* Proof that the FBI for nearly a week (after allegedly analyzing the Oswald/Hidell handwriting on a Klein's order form) couldn't decide whether the gun cost $21.95, $12.78, or $21.45.
* Proof that the FBI fabricated and often backdated numerous reports and other “evidence” about the alleged payment for the weapon that allegedly killed JFK. Original Klein's microfilm and the original postal money order disappeared while in FBI custody.
* Real evidence that Dallas postal inspector/FBI informant Harry Holmes was intimately involved in fabricating evidence for the mail order rifle.
CLICK HERE to read John's new write-up:

"With the original Kleins microfilm in hand the FBI could easily copy and fabricate a Klein's order form to show that Oswald (Hidell) purchased a 40" Italian rifle (C2766) from Kleins. They could easily show that Oswald paid for the rifle with a $21.45 postal money order. And they could create and backdate FBI reports to create the illusion that FBI agents "found" information relating to Oswald's purchase of the rifle on Klein's microfilm. They needed only 3 items to suddenly "appear" on the microfilm--a blank Klein's order coupon (from a sports magazine), a Klein's order form, and a stamped and "dated" mailing envelope."

"The FBI needed to create reports that showed Crescent sold C2766 to Klein's, and then re-sold that rifle to Oswald. All documentation had to be dated after Crescent Firearms' sold C2766 to Klein's (after June 18, 1962), but before April 10, 1963, when Oswald allegedly used this rifle to fire shots at General Edwin Walker. The FBI's first step was to ignore the sale of C2766 by Crescent to Kleins on June 18, 1962, and show that C2766 was shipped to Kleins in early 1963."

And so on... No doubt there were huge gymnastics performed by the FBI during those first few fraught hours after the assassination. The order had come down from above - nail Oswald. And only Oswald. Documents are then tortuously fabricated to create a narrative consistent with that. There is without doubt more than a glimmer of truth in this article and it shows the kind of gross falsification that was needed to arrive at a politically 'safe solution'.

Question though: in retrospect, if they had had the resources wouldn't it have been neater to have simply found a doppelganger and have HIM go and buy the damn rifle?

There has been talk of such a doppelganger using Oswald's name buying trucks, going fishing and being interviewed when it was dangerous for the plot to do so. Yet here was a golden opportunity to actually use him in such a way as to totally incriminate Oswald but the plotters preferred and chose the above frantic sequence of events. The person who everyone was fooled into believing was Oswald (presumably because of 'Lee's' very close resemblance) could have been used to buy the gun from any shop in Dallas. Get him to make a scene whilst doing it and immediately there is a link between the gun, the seller and the buyer...that is, Oswald.

I wonder why they didn't do that...

Excellent point.

Thanks, Bernie Laverick.

--Tommy :sun

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[...]

"With the original Kleins microfilm in hand the FBI could easily copy and fabricate a Klein's order form to show that Oswald (Hidell) purchased a 40" Italian rifle (C2766) from Kleins. They could easily show that Oswald paid for the rifle with a $21.45 postal money order. And they could create and backdate FBI reports to create the illusion that FBI agents "found" information relating to Oswald's purchase of the rifle on Klein's microfilm. They needed only 3 items to suddenly "appear" on the microfilm--a blank Klein's order coupon (from a sports magazine), a Klein's order form, and a stamped and "dated" mailing envelope."

"The FBI needed to create reports that showed Crescent sold C2766 to Klein's, and then re-sold that rifle to Oswald. All documentation had to be dated after Crescent Firearms' sold C2766 to Klein's (after June 18, 1962), but before April 10, 1963, when Oswald allegedly used this rifle to fire shots at General Edwin Walker. The FBI's first step was to ignore the sale of C2766 by Crescent to Kleins on June 18, 1962, and show that C2766 was shipped to Kleins in early 1963."

And so on... No doubt there were huge gymnastics performed by the FBI during those first few fraught hours after the assassination. The order had come down from above - nail Oswald. And only Oswald. Documents are then tortuously fabricated to create a narrative consistent with that. There is without doubt more than a glimmer of truth in this article and it shows the kind of gross falsification that was needed to arrive at a politically 'safe solution'.

Question though: in retrospect, if they had had the resources wouldn't it have been neater to have simply found a doppelganger and have HIM go and buy the damn rifle?

There has been talk of such a doppelganger using Oswald's name buying trucks, going fishing and being interviewed when it was dangerous for the plot to do so. Yet here was a golden opportunity to actually use him in such a way as to totally incriminate Oswald but the plotters preferred and chose the above frantic sequence of events. The person who everyone was fooled into believing was Oswald (presumably because of 'Lee's' very close resemblance) could have been used to buy the gun from any shop in Dallas. Get him to make a scene whilst doing it and immediately there is a link between the gun, the seller and the buyer...that is, Oswald.

I wonder why they didn't do that...

Excellent point.

Thanks, Bernie Laverick.

--Tommy :sun

Bernie,

You ask an excellent question: Instead of going to the trouble of fabricating all those (allegedly) bogus things (coupon, postal money order, etc) to create an incriminating "paper trail," why didn't the bad guys just have "Lee" go buy a rifle in Lee Harvey Oswald's name, or at least go in to the gun shop looking like "Harvey" (as much as he apparently did) and create a memorable "scene" for the salespeople to "remember him" by after the assassination?

--Tommy :sun

Edited by Thomas Graves

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On the one hand, the fake rifle purchase seems to have been a part of the cover up... not engineered by the assassination plotters. Because it seemingly wasn't planned beforehand. On the other hand, it was initiated so quickly that it's hard to believe it could have been a part of the cover-up.

Does anybody have a plausible explanation for this?

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Seems they sent a verbal doppleganger to have a 'scope fitted to a rifle.

"IRVING SPORTS SHOP. The day after the assassination (Saturday afternoon-11/23/63) gunsmith Dial Ryder found an undated repair ticket on his workbench at the Irving Sports Shop. The repair ticket had notations "drill and tap $4.50; bore sight $1.50; total $6.00" (work required to mount a scope). The name "Oswald" appeared on the ticket, but the ticket was undated and had neither a complete name nor an address nor a phone number. Ryder told the WC that he did not mention the repair ticket to anyone that weekend.

At 10:30 AM on Monday, November 25, FBI agent Emory Horton contacted and interviewed Ryder at his home in Irving, TX. It has never been determined how the FBI knew to send agent Horton to visit Ryder. Horton showed Ryder photographs of C2766 and photographs of Oswald. Horton asked Ryder if he knew Oswald or remembered working on this rifle. Ryder told agent Horton that he did not remember Oswald and he definitely had never worked on an Italian rifle. Ryder told the agent that he had a repair ticket with the name "Oswald" and notations for drilling, tapping, and boresighting. To the best of his memory, Ryder said this work had been performed between November 1 and November 15 at the Irving Sports Shop, but not on an Italian rifle."

​Yes. How did the FBI know to visit the gunshop?.

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I don’t want to seem argumentative, I actually thought John’s article was really illuminating and adds something of value to the process. What spoils it for me is the constant need to anchor such research into an existing belief.

For instance, it is painted as a “mystery” how the FBI came by the Irving Gun Shop in the first place but common sense tells us otherwise. Take the tag ‘found’ at Irving Gun Shop with the name Oswald on it. It is seemingly a “mystery” as to how the FBI came by this information yet the sequence of events shows exactly how it came about.

Mr GREENER was the owner and his assistant, RYDER, is the one who wrote the tag and carried out the repairs. He subsequently denied seeing Oswald and confirmed that the gun in question wasn’t the assassination weapon.

Mr. LIEBELER. Do you have any reason to believe that any reporter talked to Ryder prior to the time the FBI came to your shop?
Mr. GREENER. One told me he did.
Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember that reporter's name?
Mr. GREENER. No; he was with the Times Herald.
Mr. LIEBELER. Dallas Times Herald?
Mr. GREENER. I couldn't swear.
Mr. LIEBELER. He told you he talked to Ryder?
Mr. GREENER. Ryder told me he hadn't.
Mr. LIEBELER. Ryder told you the reporter had not talked to him?
Mr. GREENER. Had not talked to him.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did the reporter tell you when he had talked to Ryder?
Mr. GREENER. He told me that he talked to him earlier in the morning…

So we have proof that the employee is lying to his boss. And it wasn’t the FBI, but the Dallas Herald who first made the contact…apparently.

Mr. LIEBELER. I am trying to find out at what time this story first broke, whether the FBI had been here at the shop to ask any questions before the story came out in the newspapers?

Mr. GREENER. As I recall, no. None of the law enforcing agencies had been by previous to that.
Mr. LIEBELER. Your impression is that he came here because they saw the story in the paper?
Mr. GREENER. That is my idea. Either that, or they were informed by the news reporters.
Mr. LIEBELER. Now did this reporter from the Dallas paper, whose name you don't remember, tell you that Ryder had called him?
Mr. GREENER. No; he told me that he called him, called Ryder.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did he tell you how he got the idea to call Ryder?
Mr. GREENER. No; he didn't.
Mr. LIEBELER. And you didn't ask him?
Mr. GREENER. No.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you discuss this question with Ryder?
Mr. GREENER. Yes; I did. And he said he had not talked to a newspaper reporter about it.
Mr. LIEBELER. At all?
Mr. GREENER. Right.

Why is Ryder lying to his boss about not talking to the media? What is he trying to hide from him? If the Dallas Herald reporter is really telling the truth and not just defending his sources, who else could possibly know about this tag? Certainly not the FBI, they came along later…

Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember the exact details under which you found the tag in the shop?
Mr. RYDER. Well, we talked about this thing on Saturday morning and like I said before, like you saw the workbench up there today, that it is cluttered up, and on Saturday evening I was cleaning it off and found the tag laying back on the workbench.
Mr. LIEBELER. The Saturday following the assassination?
Mr. RYDER.
Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. You found the tag there yourself?
Mr. RYDER. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. Had the FBI been out here prior to that time?
Mr. RYDER. No.
Mr. LIEBELER. They had not?
Mr. RYDER. No, sir.
Mr. LIEBELER. When did the FBI first come out?
Mr. RYDER. On Monday.
Mr. LIEBELER. On Monday?
Mr. RYDER. Yes; that was on Monday, of the funeral of the late President.
Mr. LIEBELER. That would have been November 25, 1963, when the FBI came out on Monday and you gave them the tag or showed them this tag; is that right?
Mr. RYDER. He told us to hold onto it, and then they later came by and got the tag.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you ever talk to the newspaper reporter about this?
Mr. RYDER. There were several out here after the FBI had been out, and we told them the same thing that we told the FBI.
Mr. LIEBELER. But you didn't talk to any newspaper reporter before the FBI came out here?
Mr. RYDER. No.

But according to the owner, Mr Greener this was the scenario. Sounds like our boy Ryder is a bit of a romancer.

Mr. LIEBELER. Who found the tag; do you remember?
Mr. GREENER. No; I don't know. If I remember correctly, and I could be wrong, because like I said, you are going into things that hadn't entered my mind since November 22, along in there, and it seems to me that he had contacted Ryder and they had come down here.
Mr. LIEBELER. The FBI?
Mr. GREENER Yes, and they found the tag on the workbench somewhere.
Mr. LIEBELER. Your impression now is that the FBI man was here when the tag was found?
Mr. GREENER. That is my impression; yes.

Somehow someone from the Dallas Herald received a tip off about a gun repair shop who had a tag with the name Oswald written on it. So others knew about this tag before the FBI; firstly the source of the information and secondly the Dallas Herald. Only when the story broke did the FBI get involved, naturally. Had the FBI known about this first why would the Dallas Herald even be involved in the story?

So we have three, and only three, scenarios for that tag to have been there in that shop. The real Oswald went there and asked for repairs to yet another gun he owned. Another Oswald went there for repairs to another gun. Or, Ryder wrote the tag after the event and either he or his partner contacted the media with an anonymous tip off.

Here is a fascinating exchange between the Dallas Herald reporter, Hunter Schmidt, and Ryder who Schmidt claimed had provided the information that was eventually published.

http://jfkassassination.net/russ/testimony/ryderschmidt.htm

Make your own mind up who is telling the truth.

Edited by Bernie Laverick

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A key question is, why did the FBI fabricate so many documents, as John Armstrong alleges?

I believe Armstrong's allegations are correct.

I don't believe any FBI employee had a hand in killing JFK. The cover-up is another matter. So why did FBI agents fabricate those documents? I believe Hoover didn't want any official conclusion other than that LHO killed JFK acting alone. No one in any position of power in the U.S. government wanted any other conclusion. I believe the plotters anticipated this unfolding of events; which tells me the plotters had an unerring take on D.C. power politics.

That narrows the field for me.

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I don’t want to seem argumentative, I actually thought John’s article was really illuminating and adds something of value to the process. What spoils it for me is the constant need to anchor such research into an existing belief.

For instance, it is painted as a “mystery” how the FBI came by the Irving Gun Shop in the first place but common sense tells us otherwise. Take the tag ‘found’ at Irving Gun Shop with the name Oswald on it. It is seemingly a “mystery” as to how the FBI came by this information yet the sequence of events shows exactly how it came about.

Mr GREENER was the owner and his assistant, RYDER, is the one who wrote the tag and carried out the repairs. He subsequently denied seeing Oswald and confirmed that the gun in question wasn’t the assassination weapon.

Mr. LIEBELER. Do you have any reason to believe that any reporter talked to Ryder prior to the time the FBI came to your shop?

Mr. GREENER. One told me he did.

Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember that reporter's name?

Mr. GREENER. No; he was with the Times Herald.

Mr. LIEBELER. Dallas Times Herald?

Mr. GREENER. I couldn't swear.

Mr. LIEBELER. He told you he talked to Ryder?

Mr. GREENER. Ryder told me he hadn't.

Mr. LIEBELER. Ryder told you the reporter had not talked to him?

Mr. GREENER. Had not talked to him.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did the reporter tell you when he had talked to Ryder?

Mr. GREENER. He told me that he talked to him earlier in the morning…

So we have proof that the employee is lying to his boss. And it wasn’t the FBI, but the Dallas Herald who first made the contact…apparently.

Mr. LIEBELER. I am trying to find out at what time this story first broke, whether the FBI had been here at the shop to ask any questions before the story came out in the newspapers?

Mr. GREENER. As I recall, no. None of the law enforcing agencies had been by previous to that.

Mr. LIEBELER. Your impression is that he came here because they saw the story in the paper?

Mr. GREENER. That is my idea. Either that, or they were informed by the news reporters.

Mr. LIEBELER. Now did this reporter from the Dallas paper, whose name you don't remember, tell you that Ryder had called him?

Mr. GREENER. No; he told me that he called him, called Ryder.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did he tell you how he got the idea to call Ryder?

Mr. GREENER. No; he didn't.

Mr. LIEBELER. And you didn't ask him?

Mr. GREENER. No.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you discuss this question with Ryder?

Mr. GREENER. Yes; I did. And he said he had not talked to a newspaper reporter about it.

Mr. LIEBELER. At all?

Mr. GREENER. Right.

Why is Ryder lying to his boss about not talking to the media? What is he trying to hide from him? If the Dallas Herald reporter is really telling the truth and not just defending his sources, who else could possibly know about this tag? Certainly not the FBI, they came along later…

Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember the exact details under which you found the tag in the shop?

Mr. RYDER. Well, we talked about this thing on Saturday morning and like I said before, like you saw the workbench up there today, that it is cluttered up, and on Saturday evening I was cleaning it off and found the tag laying back on the workbench.

Mr. LIEBELER. The Saturday following the assassination?

Mr. RYDER. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. You found the tag there yourself?

Mr. RYDER. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. Had the FBI been out here prior to that time?

Mr. RYDER. No.

Mr. LIEBELER. They had not?

Mr. RYDER. No, sir.

Mr. LIEBELER. When did the FBI first come out?

Mr. RYDER. On Monday.

Mr. LIEBELER. On Monday?

Mr. RYDER. Yes; that was on Monday, of the funeral of the late President.

Mr. LIEBELER. That would have been November 25, 1963, when the FBI came out on Monday and you gave them the tag or showed them this tag; is that right?

Mr. RYDER. He told us to hold onto it, and then they later came by and got the tag.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you ever talk to the newspaper reporter about this?

Mr. RYDER. There were several out here after the FBI had been out, and we told them the same thing that we told the FBI.

Mr. LIEBELER. But you didn't talk to any newspaper reporter before the FBI came out here?

Mr. RYDER. No.

But according to the owner, Mr Greener this was the scenario. Sounds like our boy Ryder is a bit of a romancer.

Mr. LIEBELER. Who found the tag; do you remember?

Mr. GREENER. No; I don't know. If I remember correctly, and I could be wrong, because like I said, you are going into things that hadn't entered my mind since November 22, along in there, and it seems to me that he had contacted Ryder and they had come down here.

Mr. LIEBELER. The FBI?

Mr. GREENER Yes, and they found the tag on the workbench somewhere.

Mr. LIEBELER. Your impression now is that the FBI man was here when the tag was found?

Mr. GREENER. That is my impression; yes.

Somehow someone from the Dallas Herald received a tip off about a gun repair shop who had a tag with the name Oswald written on it. So others knew about this tag before the FBI; firstly the source of the information and secondly the Dallas Herald. Only when the story broke did the FBI get involved, naturally. Had the FBI known about this first why would the Dallas Herald even be involved in the story?

So we have three, and only three, scenarios for that tag to have been there in that shop. The real Oswald went there and asked for repairs to yet another gun he owned. Another Oswald went there for repairs to another gun. Or, Ryder wrote the tag after the event and either he or his partner contacted the media with an anonymous tip off.

Here is a fascinating exchange between the Dallas Herald reporter, Hunter Schmidt, and Ryder who Schmidt claimed had provided the information that was eventually published.

http://jfkassassination.net/russ/testimony/ryderschmidt.htm

Make your own mind up who is telling the truth.

Bernie,

First let me say that I read some of the testimony and skimmed some of it. So I may be mistaken somehow in my response here. But I think not.

It seems like you (and Mr. Greener) are mistaken in some way. You both say the Dallas Herald got involved with the Irving Gun Shop before the FBI did. But I think it happened the other way around.

You said:

Only when the story broke did the FBI get involved, naturally. Had the FBI known about this first why would the Dallas Herald even be involved in the story?

Mr. Greener (the shop owner) agrees with you:

Mr. LIEBELER. I am trying to find out at what time this story first broke, whether the FBI had been here at the shop to ask any questions before the story came out in the newspapers?

Mr. GREENER. As I recall, no. None of the law enforcing agencies had been by previous to that.

Mr. LIEBELER. Your impression is that he [FBI agent] came here because they saw the story in the paper?

Mr. GREENER. That is my idea. Either that, or they were informed by the news reporters.

But I read in other testimony that the FBI got involved on Monday the 25th, whereas the Dallas Herald didn't get involved until Wednesday the 28th.

The following Ryder (the workman) testimony establishes the date for the FBI visit:

Mr. LIEBELER. When did the FBI first come out?

Mr. RYDER. On Monday.

Mr. LIEBELER. On Monday?

Mr. RYDER. Yes; that was on Monday, of the funeral of the late President.

Mr. LIEBELER. That would have been November 25, 1963, when the FBI came out on Monday and you gave them the tag or showed them this tag; is that right?

Now, as you read the following Greener testimony, keep in mind that the Oswald tag had been found by Monday the 25th:

Mr. LIEBELER. Your impression now is that the FBI man was here when the tag was found [on Monday 25th or earlier]?

Mr. GREENER. That is my impression; yes.

So Mr.Greener changes his mind and no longer agrees with you. Now he agrees with his employee, Ryder. The FBI was there early.

Now let's turn to the testimony of Schmidt, the newspaper reporter. His testimony establishes the date for the Dallas Times Herald visit:

Mr. LIEBELER. As I have indicated to Mr. Ryder, Mr. Schmidt testified yesterday that on the morning of November 28, 1963, you came to work in your office at the Dallas Times Herald and received information of some sort that possibly Lee Oswald had had some work done on a rifle, on his rifle or a rifle, in some sports shops or gunshop in the outlying areas of Dallas. Would you tell us briefly what happened after that, Mr. Schmidt?

Mr. SCHMIDT. After I got the tip, I traced it down and thought it was Garland first and I looked it up in the phonebook--the city directory--and the usual sources that we go through--I looked-through and this Ryder was the only one that I could find, or apparently he was the one that said what I was looking for.

Mr. LIEBELER. Where did you get Ryder's name in the first place; do you know?

Mr. SCHMIDT. Well, it was from a tip around the police station. Now, I don't remember. I have been trying to remember where who specifically it came from, but it was one of the many we were getting at that tim.

Incidentally, the highlighted text near the end tells us who found out about the gun shop's Oswald tag. Someone around the police station knew about it. Perhaps a DPD employee??

So you see, the FBI really did go to the gun shop first.

BTW, regarding the accusation that Ryder lied about conversing with newspaper man Schmidt, I have three comments:

  1. Ryder claimed he wouldn't talk to Schmidt. He even took the phone off the hook.
  2. Schimdt claimed that he did talk to Ryder, and that an associate listened in on the whole conversation.
  3. I only skimmed the article. But from what I saw, I couldn't tell who was lying.
  4. Why would somebody listen in on the conversation? I couldn't tell from the testimony, but if this associate heard BOTH sides of the conversation, to me this stinks. Maybe to provide later corroboration for a conversation that didn't really happen? I wish I had time to delve into this.

EDIT: Oops... Bernie not Ernie. So sorry.

Edited by Sandy Larsen

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A key question is, why did the FBI fabricate so many documents, as John Armstrong alleges?

I believe Armstrong's allegations are correct.

I don't believe any FBI employee had a hand in killing JFK. The cover-up is another matter. So why did FBI agents fabricate those documents? I believe Hoover didn't want any official conclusion other than that LHO killed JFK acting alone. No one in any position of power in the U.S. government wanted any other conclusion. I believe the plotters anticipated this unfolding of events; which tells me the plotters had an unerring take on D.C. power politics.

That narrows the field for me.

Jon,

I agree 100 percent.

I've wondered if the way they got the cover-up started was by whispering into key ears at the earliest moment, something like, "It would be bad for all of America if this case to end up unsolved. We can't be seen as a Banana Republic."

James DiEugenio (and I'm sure many others, possibly including on-the-fence me) believes that the cover-up was triggered by the potential for word of the Mexico trip leading to war. (If I understand him correctly.)

What baffles me, though, is how did the cover-up begin within literally minutes of the assassination? This quickness of it points to it being part of the assassination plot. The bungling of it points to it being part of an unplanned cover-up.

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