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Jim Hargrove

John Armstrong blasts the mail order rifle “evidence”

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How do we really KNOW for a fact that these "missing" items are truly MISSING from the National Archives? We all know it's like pulling teeth from a grizzly bear to get permission to see any of the "original" items that are in the National Archives. So I'm just wondering if (just perhaps) some of those "missing" items (like the original money order and the stub) could still be buried somewhere in one of the N.A. buildings someplace (or elsewhere). How can we KNOW for sure they're really missing? ~shrug~

This is not rocket science. Just contact the JFK Assassination Records department of the National Archives and ask them if they have the original of the Magic Money Order, the stub, or Klein's microfilm.

Textual Records Reference Division

Room 2400

National Archives and Records Administration

8601 Adelphi Road

College Park, MD 20740

By E-mail: archives2reference@nara.gov

By Telephone: 301-837-3510

Unlike, I suspect, anyone else active on this forum, John Armstrong spent months at the National Archives in D.C. where, wearing little white “evidence gloves,” he examined all of “Lee Harvey Oswald's” so-called possessions, as well as the so-called evidence against him. (John says the Archives made it much tougher for people to directly examine the alleged evidence soon after he completed his work there in the late 1990s.)

Unlike anyone else here, I suspect, John also purchased the complete set of “FBI Series II” microfilm reels from UMI, which contains, apparently, all the reports and various facsimiles the FBI created and collected for the Warren Commission. I partly read and partly skimmed through just one of those reels, and it is an enormous job.

When it comes to understanding what documents and artifacts actually exist at the JFK Assassination Archives, I doubt any JFK researcher on earth can speak with greater authority than John Armstrong.

Edited by Jim Hargrove

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Sandy,

See notes in blue:

  1. The FBI has the Carcano rifle in their possession at 11:45 PM CST on Friday the 22nd, from which they get the serial number C2766.

  2. The FBI discovers from a gun dealer in Dallas that Italian surplus WW2 rifles were being distributed by Crescent Firearms in New York City. This leads the FBI to Klein's in Chicago after finding out that Crescent had sold the "C2766" rifle to Klein's. YES, THE FBI FOUND OUT IT WAS SOLD ON 6/18/62. WHY THEN DID THE FBI LATER REPORT THAT CRESCENT SOLD C2766 TO KLEINS IN JANUARY, 1963?

  3. Klein's records are searched and the "C2766" Internal Invoice is found (what would become "Waldman Deposition Exhibit No. 7"), which provides pertinent information about the sale of Italian rifle No. C2766 for $21.45 to one A. Hidell of Dallas, Texas (via "M.O." [money order]) on March 20, 1963 (which is the date the FBI goes with THEN EXPLAIN WHY AN FBI MEMO, WRITTEN TO THE SECRET SERVICE, DESCRIBES A RIFLE SOLD BY KLEINS THAT WAS SIMILAR TO C2766 THAT WAS PAID FOR WITH A MONEY ORDER ISSUED ON 3/20/63, instead of the date stamped at the very top of invoice--March 13, 1963--which was the date Klein's put the Hidell order through their cash register, as William Waldman explained in his Warren Commission testimony; the March 20 date was, of course, the date the rifle was shipped to Hidell/Oswald) IT WAS ALSO THE DATE ANOTHER RIFLE WAS SOLD BY KLEINS, AND PAID FOR WITH A MONEY ORDER ISSUED ON 3/20/63..

    In addition to the internal Klein's Internal Invoice, the FBI also found on microfilm the "Order Letter" (as Curry later called it), which is CE773. The Order Letter is the order form clipped by Oswald out of the Feb. '63 American Rifleman magazine, and the envelope in which it was mailed.

    The FBI quickly determined that the writing on the Order Letter was that of Lee Harvey Oswald. YES, AND ACCORDING TO CURRY THE PRICE OF THE RIFLE WAS $12.78, NOT $21.45

    [questions: when were the invoice and order letter found? the microfilmed order letter includes the envelope it was mailed in... seriously, Klein's microfilmed even envelopes? why did the search take seven hours?]

    Internal Invoice Information: 3/13/63 receipt date; 3/20/63 processing & shipping date; $19.95 rifle cost; $21.45 total cost; C2766 serial number; paid by money order; "W/ 4X SCOPE"

    Order Letter Information: Hidell's handwriting; Hidell's address; $19.95 rifle price.

  4. Somebody connected with the discovery of the Internal Invoice must have transmitted the wrong purchase price to other FBI personnel ($21.95 instead of $21.45), which led to confusion when the FBI and Secret Service began searching for the money order that was used to pay for the rifle. HOW IS THIS POSSIBLE IF THE FBI HAD THE WRITTEN DOCUMENTATION (KLEINS ORDER FORM) ON 11/23/63?

  5. In a hallway press conference on the night of Nov. 23, Chief Jesse Curry refers to the Order Letter.[question: what Order Letter information does he report?] HE REPORTS THE RIFLE WAS SOLD FOR $12.78

  6. ???[questions: when did the press get the $12.78 price and 3/20/63 order date information?(REPORTED BY CURRY AND THE PRESS ON 11/23/63) what was the $21.95 I had in my list... I forget... was that reported by the press as well?] THE $21.95 WAS IN AN FBI MEMO TO THE SECRET SERVICE ON 11/23/63

  7. According to FBI report CD75, on Nov. 23, the following information was received from the VP of Klein's's bank.

    -- On Mar. 15 1963, Klein's had deposited $13,827.98 in its bank. NO CONFIRMATION OF THE DATE OF DEPOSIT/ DEPOSIT SLIP SAID 2/15/63; WALDMAN TOLD THE WC HE COULD NOT SAY WHEN THE DEPOSIT WAS MADE; The deposit included a $21.45 postal money order IT INCLUDED 7 INDIVIDUAL DEPOSITS OF $21.45--NOT ONE

    -- On Mar. 16 the bank had sent the $21.45 PMO to the Federal Reserve Bank of Chicago. NO WAY TO PROVE THIS. NO DOCUMENTATION. NO DATE ON THE MONEY ORDER. It would have been received by the FRB on Mar. 18. PROVE THIS!

  8. According to SS report CD87, at about 8:30 PM on Nov. 23 a request was issued to locate and obtain postal money order #2,202,130,462 dated 3/12/63 in the amount of $21.45 payable to Klein's by Alek James Hidell. [question: how and when did the SS get the money order number and date?]

  9. ???[question: anything else?] MANY QUESTIONS: 1) LHO ORDERED 36" RIFLE, RECEIVED 40" RIFLE; 2) LHO TIMECARD SHOWS HE COULD DID NOT LEAVE WORK ON 3/12/63; 3) HOW DID MAILING ENVELOPE GET TO ZONE 12 IN DALLAS? 4) WHY NOT A SINGLE BANK STAMP OR DATE STAMP ON MONEY ORDER? 5) WHY NO DATE OR BANK STAMP ON DEPOSIT SLIP FOR $13,827.98? 6) HOW CAN ANYONE IDENTIFY A $21.45 ENTRY AS A MONEY ORDER ON WALDMAN 10 ? 7) FBI AGENT REPORTED TWO RIFLES FOUND ON THE KLEINS MICROFILM SIMILAR TO C2766, BUT NOTHING ABOUT C2766; WHY ?? 8) WHY DOES WALDMAN ALLEGEDLY TELL THE FBI THE $21.45 MONEY ORDER WAS DEPOSITED TO HIS BANK ON 3/13/63, BUT THEN TELLS THE WC THAT HE CANNOT DETERMINE WHEN THIS DEPOSIT WAS MADE? 9) WHAT HAPPENED TO THE MONEY ORDER STUB, ALLEGEDLY FOUND AT THE DALLAS GPO BY HARRY HOLMES? 10) HOW DID ROBERT JACKSON, EMPLOYEE OF THE NATIONAL ARCHIVES IN ALEXANDRIA, VA., COME INTO POSSESSION OF THE MONEY ORDER ON THE NIGHT OF 11/23/63? 11) WHY DID NEITHER THE FBI NOR THE WC ASK WALDMAN FOR A COPY OF THE KLEINS BANK STATEMENT FOR MARCH, 1963 IN ORDER TO DETERMINE IF AND WHEN A $13.827.98 DEPOSIT WAS MADE TO KLEINS ACCOUNT? 12) WALDMAN GAVE FBI AGENT DOLAN THE KLEINS MICROFILM AND DOLAN GAVE HIM A RECEIPT FOR THE MICROFILM. WHY DOES ANOTHER FBI REPORT SAY THE KLEINS MICROFILM WAS LEFT WITH WALDMAN ON 11/23/63? 13) WHY IS THERE A SS REPORT STATING THAT THE MONEY ORDER, FOUND IN KANSAS CITY, WAS BEING SENT TO WASHINGTON DC, WHILE A 2ND MONEY ORDER WAS FOUND IN ALEXANDRIA, VA? 14) WHY WAS NEITHER FBI AGENTS DOLAN, TOEDT, OR MAHAN CALLED TO TESTIFY BEFORE THE WC? 15) WHAT HAPPENED TO THE INFORMATION CONCERNING A RIFLE, SIMILAR TO C2766, THAT WAS SOLD BY KLEINS IN LATE MARCH, 1963, AND PAID FOR WITH A MONEY ORDER ISSUED ON 3/20/63? 16) EXPLAIN WHY, IF THE FBI HAD KLEIN'S ORDER FORM, THE $21.45 MONEY ORDER, ETC., ON 11/23/63, DID THE FBI NOT ANNOUNCE THIS TO THE PRESS? WHY DID THEY WAIT UNTIL 11/29/63? 17) EXPLAIN THE MARCH 20 NOTATION ON RUTH PAINES CALENDAR "LHO PURCHASED A RIFLE" 18) EXPLAIN WHEN AND WHERE OSWALD PURCHASED OR OBTAINED A CLIP AND AMMUNITION FOR THE RIFLE 19) EXPLAIN WHAT HAPPENED TO THE KLEINS MICROFILM WHILE IN FBI CUSTODY? 20) EXPLAIN WHAT HAPPENED TO THE POSTAL MONEY ORDER WHILE IN FBI CUSTODY? 21) EXPLAIN WHY THE FBI REPORTS, WHICH REFER TO INTERVIEWS WITH WALDMAN AND WILMOUTH, WERE NOT SIGNED BY THE REPORTING AGENT 22) IF CRESCENT DELIVERED C2766 TO KLEINS IN JANUARY, 1963, THEN EXPLAIN WHAT HAPPENED TO THE C2766 THAT CRESCENT SOLD TO KLEINS ON 6/18/63 22) WHY WAS LOUIS FELDSOTT NOT INTERVIEWED BY THE FBI OR WARREN COMMISSION?

This all seems consistent so far. I need to insert the information reported by the press and answer the questions in red. Any help would be appreciated.

Bump.

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I especially like this one:

  1. The FBI discovers from a gun dealer in Dallas that Italian surplus WW2 rifles were being distributed by Crescent Firearms in New York City. This leads the FBI to Klein's in Chicago after finding out that Crescent had sold the "C2766" rifle to Klein's. YES, THE FBI FOUND OUT IT WAS SOLD ON 6/18/62. WHY THEN DID THE FBI LATER REPORT THAT CRESCENT SOLD C2766 TO KLEINS IN JANUARY, 1963?

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Hey guys, sorry I haven't been here for a while. Thanks for all the information!

I'm way behind the curve on this topic. But I want to go ahead with my experiment. I hope David VP will go along with it too.

I want to keep my list as simple as possible. Otherwise I might as well use John's writeup. In which case I'd have to ask DVP to correct all that in a way that makes sense to him. And that would be too big of a chore.

If, in keeping my list simple, I neglect something important, just let me know. But keep in mind, the ONLY thing I'm dealing with on the list CURRENTLY is the wrong information reported by the press. (And maybe something related to that that I don't recall at the moment.) After that is resolved to DVP 's satisfaction, then we can move ahead if we want.

I will work on the list now, and ask DVP to approve it (and you other guys to correct my mistakes) at each step. I really want to see if there is an alternative explanation that makes sense.

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Version 1

Alternate Explanation for Incorrect Rifle Information Being Reported

Based on David Von Pein's Post 116 in this Thread

Version 2 Date: 2/23/16

Substantive changes in red.

  1. The FBI has the Carcano rifle in their possession at 11:45 PM CST on Friday the 22nd, from which they get the serial number C2766.

  2. The FBI discovers from a gun dealer in Dallas that Italian surplus WW2 rifles were being distributed by Crescent Firearms in New York City. This leads the FBI to Klein's in Chicago after finding out that Crescent had sold the "C2766" rifle to Klein's.

  3. Klein's records are searched and the "C2766" Internal Invoice is found (what would become "Waldman Deposition Exhibit No. 7"), which provides pertinent information about the sale of Italian rifle No. C2766 for $21.45 to one A. Hidell of Dallas, Texas (via "M.O." [money order]) on March 20, 1963 (which is the date the FBI goes with, instead of the date stamped at the very top of invoice--March 13, 1963--which was the date Klein's put the Hidell order through their cash register, as William Waldman explained in his Warren Commission testimony; the March 20 date was, of course, the date the rifle was shipped to Hidell/Oswald).

    In addition to the internal Klein's Internal Invoice, the FBI also found on microfilm the "Order Letter" (as Curry later called it), which is CE773. The Order Letter is the order form clipped by Oswald out of the Feb. '63 American Rifleman magazine, and the envelope in which it was mailed.

    The FBI quickly determined that the writing on the Order Letter was that of Lee Harvey Oswald.

    Internal Invoice Information: 3/13/63 receipt date; 3/20/63 processing & shipping date; $19.95 rifle cost; $21.45 total cost; C2766 serial number; paid by money order; "W/ 4X SCOPE".

    Order Letter Information: a few words in Hidell's handwriting; Hidell's address; $19.95 rifle price.

    WHY DID THIS SEARCH TAKE 7 HOURS?

  4. DVP HYPOTHESIS: Somebody connected with the discovery of the Internal Invoice must have transmitted the wrong purchase price to other FBI personnel ($21.95 instead of $21.45), which led to confusion when the FBI and Secret Service began searching for the money order that was used to pay for the rifle.

  5. In a hallway press conference on the night of Nov. 23 at ~7:00 PM Dallas time, Chief Jesse Curry comments on the Order Letter. He reports that the price of the rifle, including the scope, was $12.78; that it “was advertised in some magazine for that [price];” and that the purchase date was Mar. 20, 1963. This info had been provided to the DPD by the FBI.

    HOW DID THE FBI GET THE $12.78 PRICE? AND WHY DIDN’T THEY SIMPLY USE THE $19.95 PRICE THAT WAS ON THE INTERNAL INVOICE THEY FOUND? IS THE MISREPORTED PURCHASED DATE SOMEHOW RELATED TO THIS MISREPORTED PURCHASE PRICE?

  6. On the evening of Nov. 23, the media began reporting the following information regarding the rifle purchase: 1) Mar. 20 purchase date; 2) $12.78 price tag; and 3) that the order handwriting was Oswald’s. Some in the media had a Klein’s catalog ad showing the $12.78 price. (See the Frank Reynolds Video in Post 102.)

    THE FBI HAD AUTHENTICATED OSWALD’S HANDWRITING FROM WHAT LITTLE TEXT WAS IN THE ORDER LETTER? (THEY DIDN'T HAVE THE MONEY ORDER YET.)

  7. According to FBI report CD75, on Nov. 23, the following information was received from the VP of Klein's's bank.

    -- On Mar. 15 1963, Klein's had deposited $13,827.98 in its bank. The deposit included a $21.45 postal money order.

    -- On Mar. 16 the bank had sent the $21.45 PMO to the Federal Reserve Bank of Chicago. It would have been received by the FRB on Mar. 18.

  8. According to SS report CD87, at about 8:30 PM EST on Nov. 23 a request was issued to locate and obtain postal money order #2,202,130,462 dated 3/12/63 in the amount of $21.45 payable to Klein's by Alek James Hidell.

    [question: how and when did the SS get the money order number and date?]

  9. The postal money order was recovered at 9:35 PM EST (8:35 PM Dallas time) on Nov. 23.

Information to Review

David Josephs: Posts 129 and 135 on this page.

Jim Hargrove: Post 145 on this page.

Edited by Sandy Larsen

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You will see DVP's hypothesis to account for the $21.95 total price (vs $21.45) in Post 156, above.

I will add my own hypothesis to account for the incorrect purchase price ($12.78 vs $19.95) and the 3/20/63 purchase date, as reported by the media beginning in the late evening of Mar. 23.

Edited by Sandy Larsen

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Version 2

Alternate Explanation for Incorrect Rifle Information Being Reported

Based on David Von Pein's Post 116 in this Thread

Version 3 Date: 2/23/16

Substantive changes in red.

  1. The FBI has the Carcano rifle in their possession at 11:45 PM CST on Friday the 22nd, from which they get the serial number C2766.

  2. The FBI discovers from a gun dealer in Dallas that Italian surplus WW2 rifles were being distributed by Crescent Firearms in New York City. This leads the FBI to Klein's in Chicago after finding out that Crescent had sold the "C2766" rifle to Klein's.

  3. Klein's records are searched and the "C2766" Internal Invoice is found (what would become "Waldman Deposition Exhibit No. 7"), which provides pertinent information about the sale of Italian rifle No. C2766 for $21.45 to one A. Hidell of Dallas, Texas (via "M.O." [money order]) on March 20, 1963 (which is the date the FBI goes with, instead of the date stamped at the very top of invoice--March 13, 1963--which was the date Klein's put the Hidell order through their cash register, as William Waldman explained in his Warren Commission testimony; the March 20 date was, of course, the date the rifle was shipped to Hidell/Oswald).

    In addition to the internal Klein's Internal Invoice, the FBI also found on microfilm the "Order Letter" (as Curry later called it), which is CE773. The Order Letter is the order form clipped by Oswald out of the Feb. '63 American Rifleman magazine, and the envelope in which it was mailed.

    The FBI quickly determined that the writing on the Order Letter was that of Lee Harvey Oswald.

    Internal Invoice Information: 3/13/63 receipt date; 3/20/63 processing & shipping date; $19.95 rifle cost; $21.45 total cost; C2766 serial number; paid by money order; "W/ 4X SCOPE".

    Order Letter Information: a few words in Hidell's handwriting; Hidell's address; $19.95 rifle price.

    WHY DID THIS SEARCH TAKE 7 HOURS?

  4. DVP HYPOTHESIS: Somebody connected with the discovery of the Internal Invoice must have transmitted the wrong purchase price to other FBI personnel ($21.95 instead of $21.45), which led to confusion when the FBI and Secret Service began searching for the money order that was used to pay for the rifle.

  5. SDL HYPOTHESIS: An FBI agent is handed a copy of the Internal Invoice (and perhaps also the Order Letter). He takes it and searches for Klein's ads matching the C2766 rifle. He finds one. The ad has -- as DVP pointed out -- a large "$12.78" price printed on it. The agent notes the processing/shipping date on the Internal Invoice, and determines it to be a suitable "purchase date." He clumsily assumes the $12.78 price included the scope. This information is passed on to Chief Curry of the DPD.

  6. In a hallway press conference on the night of Nov. 23 at ~7:00 PM Dallas time, Chief Jesse Curry comments on the Order Letter. He reports that the price of the rifle, including the scope, was $12.78; that it “was advertised in some magazine for that [price];” and that the purchase date was Mar. 20, 1963. This info had been provided to the DPD by the FBI.

    HOW DID THE FBI GET THE $12.78 PRICE? AND WHY DIDN’T THEY SIMPLY USE THE $19.95 PRICE THAT WAS ON THE INTERNAL INVOICE THEY FOUND? IS THE MISREPORTED PURCHASED DATE SOMEHOW RELATED TO THIS MISREPORTED PURCHASE PRICE?

  7. On the evening of Nov. 23, the media began reporting the following information regarding the rifle purchase: 1) Mar. 20 purchase date; 2) $12.78 price tag; and 3) that the order handwriting was Oswald’s. Some in the media had a Klein’s catalog ad showing the $12.78 price. (See the Frank Reynolds Video in Post 102.)

    THE FBI HAD AUTHENTICATED OSWALD’S HANDWRITING FROM WHAT LITTLE TEXT WAS IN THE ORDER LETTER? (THEY DIDN'T HAVE THE MONEY ORDER YET.)

  8. According to FBI report CD75, on Nov. 23, the following information was received from the VP of Klein's's bank.

    -- On Mar. 15 1963, Klein's had deposited $13,827.98 in its bank. The deposit included a $21.45 postal money order.

    -- On Mar. 16 the bank had sent the $21.45 PMO to the Federal Reserve Bank of Chicago. It would have been received by the FRB on Mar. 18.

  9. According to SS report CD87, at about 8:30 PM EST on Nov. 23 a request was issued to locate and obtain postal money order #2,202,130,462 dated 3/12/63 in the amount of $21.45 payable to Klein's by Alek James Hidell.

    [question: how and when did the SS get the money order number and date?]

  10. The postal money order was recovered at 9:35 PM EST (8:35 PM Dallas time) on Nov. 23.

Information to Review

David Josephs: Posts 129 and 135 on this page.

Jim Hargrove: Post 145 on this page.

Edited by Sandy Larsen

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I think the alternative explanation given in Post 158 works very well. It is very believable IMO.

Now, this doesn't necessarily mean that the purchase really happened. It also doesn't mean that what John Armstrong wrote is wrong.

If the purchase really took place, then the alternative explanation, or something like it, occurred. If the purchase did NOT take place, then John Armstrong's explanation or something like IT occurred.

Of course, I say all the above tentatively. Because maybe I made a mistake somewhere. Also, I haven't studied yet what David Josephs and Jim Hargrove presented.

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Sandy,

If the FBI made the mistakes you suggest in point 5 above, why did it take nearly a week for them to publicly correct the info when the error should have been clearly visible to anyone involved in analyzing the handwriting, or even looking at the evidence, just hours after the hit?

If the purchase actually occurred, how was it paid for? With an uncashed, unprocessed magic money order?

Are we to seriously believe that Kleins microfilmed even the envelope for each transaction, but not the method of payment?

A few other questions remain unanswered:

1) LHO ORDERED 36" RIFLE, RECEIVED 40" RIFLE; 2) LHO TIMECARD SHOWS HE COULD DID NOT LEAVE WORK ON 3/12/63; 3) HOW DID MAILING ENVELOPE GET TO ZONE 12 IN DALLAS? 4) WHY NOT A SINGLE BANK STAMP OR DATE STAMP ON MONEY ORDER? 5) WHY NO DATE OR BANK STAMP ON DEPOSIT SLIP FOR $13,827.98? 6) HOW CAN ANYONE IDENTIFY A $21.45 ENTRY AS A MONEY ORDER ON WALDMAN 10 ? 7) FBI AGENT REPORTED TWO RIFLES FOUND ON THE KLEINS MICROFILM SIMILAR TO C2766, BUT NOTHING ABOUT C2766; WHY ?? 8) WHY DOES WALDMAN ALLEGEDLY TELL THE FBI THE $21.45 MONEY ORDER WAS DEPOSITED TO HIS BANK ON 3/13/63, BUT THEN TELLS THE WC THAT HE CANNOT DETERMINE WHEN THIS DEPOSIT WAS MADE? 9) WHAT HAPPENED TO THE MONEY ORDER STUB, ALLEGEDLY FOUND AT THE DALLAS GPO BY HARRY HOLMES? 10) HOW DID ROBERT JACKSON, EMPLOYEE OF THE NATIONAL ARCHIVES IN ALEXANDRIA, VA., COME INTO POSSESSION OF THE MONEY ORDER ON THE NIGHT OF 11/23/63? 11) WHY DID NEITHER THE FBI NOR THE WC ASK WALDMAN FOR A COPY OF THE KLEINS BANK STATEMENT FOR MARCH, 1963 IN ORDER TO DETERMINE IF AND WHEN A $13.827.98 DEPOSIT WAS MADE TO KLEINS ACCOUNT? 12) WALDMAN GAVE FBI AGENT DOLAN THE KLEINS MICROFILM AND DOLAN GAVE HIM A RECEIPT FOR THE MICROFILM. WHY DOES ANOTHER FBI REPORT SAY THE KLEINS MICROFILM WAS LEFT WITH WALDMAN ON 11/23/63? 13) WHY IS THERE A SS REPORT STATING THAT THE MONEY ORDER, FOUND IN KANSAS CITY, WAS BEING SENT TO WASHINGTON DC, WHILE A 2ND MONEY ORDER WAS FOUND IN ALEXANDRIA, VA? 14) WHY WAS NEITHER FBI AGENTS DOLAN, TOEDT, OR MAHAN CALLED TO TESTIFY BEFORE THE WC? 15) WHAT HAPPENED TO THE INFORMATION CONCERNING A RIFLE, SIMILAR TO C2766, THAT WAS SOLD BY KLEINS IN LATE MARCH, 1963, AND PAID FOR WITH A MONEY ORDER ISSUED ON 3/20/63? 16) EXPLAIN WHY, IF THE FBI HAD KLEIN'S ORDER FORM, THE $21.45 MONEY ORDER, ETC., ON 11/23/63, DID THE FBI NOT ANNOUNCE THIS TO THE PRESS? WHY DID THEY WAIT UNTIL 11/29/63? 17) EXPLAIN THE MARCH 20 NOTATION ON RUTH PAINES CALENDAR "LHO PURCHASED A RIFLE" 18) EXPLAIN WHEN AND WHERE OSWALD PURCHASED OR OBTAINED A CLIP AND AMMUNITION FOR THE RIFLE 19) EXPLAIN WHAT HAPPENED TO THE KLEINS MICROFILM WHILE IN FBI CUSTODY? 20) EXPLAIN WHAT HAPPENED TO THE POSTAL MONEY ORDER WHILE IN FBI CUSTODY? 21) EXPLAIN WHY THE FBI REPORTS, WHICH REFER TO INTERVIEWS WITH WALDMAN AND WILMOUTH, WERE NOT SIGNED BY THE REPORTING AGENT 22) IF CRESCENT DELIVERED C2766 TO KLEINS IN JANUARY, 1963, THEN EXPLAIN WHAT HAPPENED TO THE C2766 THAT CRESCENT SOLD TO KLEINS ON 6/18/63 22) WHY WAS LOUIS FELDSOTT NOT INTERVIEWED BY THE FBI OR WARREN COMMISSION?

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Sandy:

1. As David pointed out, the FBI had the rifle earlier than the time you placed on it. Which means they had the correct serial number before the search.

2. In your point two, then why did they discard that particular shipment of rifles transported in the middle of 1962, for a shipment from 1963? (As I have said previously, this is a crucial point that cannot be ignored. It goes to the heart of the matter: Did Klein's have the rifle in question at the time of the alleged transaction?)

3. If they did find the internal receipt, then why did they report all the wrong information, and why did they keep this up for a week, and why the Dial Ryder episode? In fact why did the FBI actually report the wrong information that night to the Secret Service? And why did those three FBI agents involved in the search not testify to the WC?

So in addition to writing: Why did this search take seven hours, you should also add "and get the wrong results, and these guys failed to testify under oath."

4. Sorry, I don't buy the "wrong transcriptions of information", not if they have the correct information in front of them. This sounds like Harry Holmes BS, to give him time to find the stub that was never found in the WC volumes.

5. By 11/23, when the alleged PMO is found, the same wrong information is still circulating? So, in other words, with the PMO found, with the coupon found, with the internal receipt found, everything is still reported wrong?

And BTW, why did Jackson, the guy who allegedly found the PMO not testify before the WC either?

That's enough for me. Its baloney.

And that is even before we get to the whole SR 71 mailing of the money order, and the PMO that was never processed through the system.

Edited by James DiEugenio

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David J.,

Where are you seeing NINE items for $21.45 in Waldman No. 10? I sure don't see nine such items.

I had highlighted all the areas and added more info but cannot get it uploaded so here is the generic one with green arrows pointing to the $21.45 entries...

There are 8, not 9 $21.45's on this deposit. Wilmouth claims there were only 2 $21.45's on the deposit which totaled $6178 with a packaged total of $1536.11 yet on this deposit, that package totals $3807.31 which is added to the $9992.43 and $28.24 for the grand total.

Like the 10 packing slips from Waldman in March - this is a deposit for Feb 15 not March. Another simple bait and switch well hidden until the docs are put in one place and compared.

DJ

klein%20deposit%20slip%20Wilmouth%20and%

Kleins%20bank%20statement%20-%20Waldman%

Wilmouth%20describes%20the%20Kleins%20de

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With the caveat that I have read only the original post in this thread and John Armstrong’s latest write-up, I would note the following:

  • Without explanation or apology, Armstrong has tap-danced away from the “Wilmouth statement” on which Harvey and Lee (and subsequent researchers) had relied as the sole authority for the assertion that the postal money order should have multiple bank stamps. Nothing of the sort is now attributed to Wilmouth.
  • Indeed, nothing of the sort is now attributed to anyone. Instead, Armstrong’s write-up simply assumes that the money order should have multiple bank stamps. The "failure" of Belin and Waldman to notice the absence of these stamps that the money order “should” have had is deemed “suspicious.” For you fans of logic (there are surely some of you out there, are there not?), this is the fallacy known as “assuming that which is to be proven.”
  • Armstrong’s write-up completely ignores the File Locator Number – ignores not merely its significance but its very existence. How seriously should we to take a researcher who obsesses over the minutiae that Armstrong does but blithely ignores the smoking elephant on the face of the money order?
  • In other threads, we were assured that Armstrong was going to rehabilitate his theory by explaining both his seeming fabrication of the Wilmouth statement and why the File Locator Number does not have the dispositive significance it might appear to have. Moreover, we were assured that Armstrong would soon produce a highly experienced bank executive who would verify that the money order should have multiple bank stamps and explain to us dolts how the process actually works. I failed to note any of this in his write-up.
  • Armstrong also makes much of the fact that the envelope in which the money order was mailed bears a Zone 12 postmark that places it miles from the post office where the money order was purchased. I happen to have had a recent experience where my sister-in-law mailed my wife a birthday card in an envelope that was postmarked Phoenix, AZ 85012 (and only Phoenix). I didn’t think she'd been anywhere near Phoenix and asked her where she had mailed it. She had dropped it in a mailbox at a small town about 20 miles west of Tucson, more than 100 miles from Phoenix – but the only stamp was for zip code 85012 in the middle of Phoenix. A fair guess would be that Oswald took the money order back to his workplace and put the envelope with his employer’s outgoing mail, as many of us have done, or perhaps dropped it in some nearby mailbox that happened to be processed at the post office in Zone 12.

One who is not a certified conspiracy loon cannot help but notice that Armstrong repeatedly fills in the gaps in his latest write-up with his “belief” that items were “fabricated” or are “suspicious.” If one begins with the axiom that one’s theory must be correct, then one will inevitably find everything that doesn’t mesh with said theory to be “fabricated” or “suspicious.” For you fans of logic, Armstrong has committed the fallacy of “proving too much.” He has concocted such a Rube Goldbergian conspiracy that I, at least, was unable to read his latest write-up without laughing out loud. Surely even the most wild-eyed conspiracy theorists don’t really believe that a conspiracy to purchase a rifle by mail using a postal money order eight months before the assassination could possibly involve so many conspirators and elements and make so little sense from start to finish?

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Bank stamps have been discussed at length elsewhere in this forum. Whatever Wilmouth said or didn't say about bank stamps is immaterial.

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We also mentioned the bank supervisor on the BOR show and I did the same with DVP on another thread. We had all the documents saying that postal money orders were not treated any differently than other forms of currency, and we have two bank supervisors with about 70 years worth of experience. Plus, there is the first part of the essay which is at CTKA, but not here. I guess Lance the Lawyer missed all that.

I mean how long does that point have to be pounded into the ground?

And I guess Lance the Lawyer also missed the point made by Sandy Larsen about forging Postal Money Orders for Idiots.

Lance the Lawyer does not contravene one single point that John brought up in this new essay, does he?

I think he just wanted to call us loons again. OK Lance, you did. Bye.

Edited by James DiEugenio

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