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Jim Hargrove

John Armstrong blasts the mail order rifle “evidence”

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I've learned from my Alternative Explanation experiment that it makes no sense to look at just a single piece of information or a short narrative when trying to determine whether noted problems are sinister in nature or can be explained by innocent mistakes. Because the explanation you come up with to reconcile the problems can very well depend upon whether you initially assume the story to be sinister or innocent. In other words, the process of explaining the problems can be a pointless exercise of circular reasoning.

circularreasoning-297x300.jpg

Or...

Maybe the lesson to be learned is that almost any problem can be explained away as being due to mere mistakes and misunderstandings. The simpler the problem, the easier it is to explain away.

Whichever the case, I've learned my lesson. I won't be doing any more of these experiments.

Edited by Sandy Larsen

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It's quite possible that Oswald went to the post office on March 12th BEFORE he ever went to work at Jaggars that day. That's the most likely answer, IMO. And Gary Mack, five years ago, hinted at that possibility too....

Subject: RE: Buying the Money Order

Date: 3/12/2011 11:01:42 AM Eastern Standard Time

From: Gary Mack

To: David Von Pein

Dave,

Oswald could have left JCS [Jaggars-Chiles-Stovall] at any time between 8am and 10:30 IF there was no work for him to do. Oswald was given simple tasks as they came in, so if no orders were waiting, all he could do was sit and wait.....and get paid for doing so.

I assume he'd have to check with his supervisor about taking a few minutes to go to the post office, but his time card certainly does not confirm that he was on the job every single minute. It merely shows that he was at the office and "on the clock" all day.

And maybe, just maybe, he went over there on JCS business? Or perhaps a co-worker — his supervisor? — also needed something from the PO so Oswald went and took advantage of the opportunity? In short, there are many reasons Oswald's PO visit was entirely legitimate.

It would not surprise me to learn that the Main Post Office opened at 7am, but I don't know that to be the case. I'd have to check the 1963 directories, but I sort of remember doing that years ago. Anyway, I can take a look when I get back to the office on Monday.

Gary

------------------------------------------------

Subject: Main Post Office hours

Date: 3/17/2011 5:28:21 PM Eastern Daylight Time

From: Gary Mack

To: David Von Pein

Hi Dave,

None of the directories at the Museum show the hours at the main post office in Dallas in 1963. However, the USPS online search service shows the main distribution center today opens at 7am. But that building wasn’t there in 1963. The main post office, and presumably the distribution center, was at 400 N. Ervay in 1963 and it would likely have had the early business hours. The Ervay PO is the one that was just a few blocks from J-C-S which was located at 522 Browder. According to Google maps, the two are only 8 blocks, or ½ mile, apart.

Oswald could have walked or run, or probably ridden the bus, since Ervay was a main north-south street. For that matter, he could have bummed a ride from a co-worker.

In short, I don’t see anything that prevents Oswald from getting to the post office, then buying and sending his money order to Klein’s. As to why the envelope is postmarked in a different zone [it probably wasn't, as discussed here], I have no clue, but there’s no evidence such a practice was out of the ordinary.

Gary

http://jfk-archives.blogspot.com/2015/12/jfk-assassination-arguments-part-1081.html

Continued WARNING to readers of David Von Pein posts: The links he offers to his JFK Blogspot lead directly to IMAGINARY CONVERSATIONS! He takes--without asking permission--excerpts of statements made by others, shuffles them together in any way he wishes, and then usually concludes that the Warren Commission got things right.

For the subject at hand, the only evidence we have of "Lee Harvey Oswald's" work record on the day he supposedly obtained and mailed the Magic Money Order indicates he was at work doing nine different printing jobs continuously from 8 am to 12:15 pm at the JCS office nine blocks from the downtown Post Office. Today, at least, that office doesn't open until 8 am, when "Oswald" was already at work.

Thanks to Steven Gaal for this link:

http://www.hoursmap.com/c/dallas-tx/us+post+office-hours-locations-s1254658

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Mr. Von Pein not only hijacks without permission wholesale posts from users of this forum to place on his website, but he also stacks the deck so that Warren Commission critics do not get their full full arguments even presented. When he loses a debate here, he just rearranges the text and makes it appear he won.

For proof, see Post 96 on this page.

http://educationforum.ipbhost.com/index.php?showtopic=22690&page=7

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Lance, are you a lawyer admitted to a state bar?

Indeed I am. If I weren't, and were merely on here posing as a lawyer, I'd be in the same league with researchers who fabricate witness statements. "Lawyers" are by definition admitted to a state bar - law school graduates who have not been admitted to a state bar are not lawyers. Since this is apparently the "strut your stuff portion" of the discussion, be advised that I scored in the 99.7th percentile on the Law School Admissions Test, graduated from law school magna cum laude, served on law review and was elected to the Order of the Coif, have been a practicing member of the State Bar of Arizona (and admitted to the federal district court for the District of Arizona) since 1982, have published law review articles, and have been involved in (according to WestLaw) 16 reported appellate decisions - the most recent by the Arizona Supreme Court a scant four months ago. Not that any of this makes the slightest bit of difference in the context of a JFK assassination discussion, where sanity (let alone professional credentials) is scarcely a requirement.

Someone referred to you on another thread as "a lawyer." Since you deem it relevant, precisely what are your credentials, sir?

Edited by Lance Payette

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Mr. Von Pein not only hijacks without permission wholesale posts from users of this forum to place on his website, but he also stacks the deck so that Warren Commission critics do not get their full full arguments even presented. When he loses a debate here, he just rearranges the text and makes it appear he won.

For proof, see Post 96 on this page.

http://educationforum.ipbhost.com/index.php?showtopic=22690&page=7

Wow, next thing you know he'll be citing non-existent witness statements to support cockamamie theories ... well, no, probably he won't stoop to that.

Just from a legal perspective, the notion of "hijacking without permission" posts on a public Internet forum strikes me more as fodder for a Monty Python skit than a serious issue.

In any event, being of sound mind and kindly disposition, I hereby grant to all human beings and non-human entities, known or unknown, existing or contingent, corporeal or incorporeal, including without limitation DVP and all of his blood relatives to the fifth degree of consanguinity, an unrestricted, non-exclusive license to reproduce and use, for commercial or non-commercial purposes, without payment of royalties or other remuneration, all of my sage observations, witticisms and other drollery in regard to the Assassination of John F. Kennedy as they may see fit, even to the extent of stacking the deck so that Warren Commission critics do not get their full arguments even presented, so help me God, res ipsa loquitur, pecunia non olet, etc., etc.

Edited by Lance Payette

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Thanks, Lance.

What's your practice area?

...Demolishing Harvey & Lee by the looks of it. I'd hire him!

Please be warned Lance that you will now be subject to a hail of personal abuse, vilification, and an intensive and intrusive search of your online profile looking for anything that 'proves' you are COINTELPRO. You have arrived at Tin Foil Hat Central where even the slightest deviation from the Guru's wise words condemn you as a spook paid to carry on with the work of covering up the laughable, almost Scooby-Doo like, H&L scenario!

You'd have got away with it too...

If it wasn't for those pesky kids!

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Lance has not demolished anything Bernie. And you should know better.

Like a lawyer advocate, he only uses the material that favors his argument and ignores or minimizes anything else. (Sort of like the WC right?) His whole idea, that DVP adopted, about PMO's somehow being treated differently than other forms of currency has not stood scrutiny. Either with documented circulars or supervisorial bank interviews, with a combined 75 years of experience.

That was truly one of the fruitiest concepts since DVP said that the USPS held a box for REA orders at the post office and then delivered them, or had them picked up by the competitor.

And its not us dishing out personal vilification, its Lance the Lawyer calling us nuts, loons and UFO equivalents.

How you missed that one is simply amazing.

Edited by James DiEugenio

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DVP said that the USPS held a box for REA orders at the post office and then delivered them, or had them picked up by the competitor.

~ sigh ~

Jimmy has the memory of a potato chip. He likes to totally ignore the fact that I proved that I was right about the way the post office handles COD money. Jimbo probably thinks I just made up this postal regulation below:

"Any mailer may use collect on delivery (COD) service to mail an article for which the mailer has not been paid and have its price and the cost of the postage collected from the recipient. If the recipient pays the amount due by check payable to the mailer, the USPS forwards the check to the mailer. If the recipient pays the amount due in cash, the USPS collects the money order fee(s) from the recipient and sends a postal money order(s) to the mailer."

jfk-archives.blogspot.com/2011/12/dvp-vs-dieugenio-part-72.html

Edited by David Von Pein

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Thanks, Lance.

What's your practice area?

I am "of counsel" to my firm and now do only heavy-duty research, complex motions and appellate briefs for the other lawyers, mostly in the areas of real estate and commercial litigation. My years of practice have included everything from being an in-house antitrust and trade regulation counsel for a Fortune 100 company to the city attorney for a rural town of 25,000. None of which I take seriously, I assure you.

I actually just gave Harvey and Lee a fair-and-balanced (I believe) 4-star review on Amazon, because I do believe it contains a great deal of useful information. As Walt Brown said, it is a valuable resource even if you think the basic theory is nutty. I have come to believe the basic theory is indeed nutty, but I do not doubt that LHO was an extremely mysterious character and an unlikely assassin or that Oswald imposters were at work at various times and places in order to make LHO appear to be a more plausible assassin than he actually was.

My sole involvement on this forum has been in relation to the postal money order. I believe that I and others have demonstrated, to what should be the satisfaction of any reasonable human being, that the "money order mystery" is no mystery at all and that John Armstrong relied for years (and caused others to rely for years) on supposed statements in an FBI interview with Robert Wilmouth that simply do not exist. This fact, and Armstrong's seeming refusal to acknowledge his "mistake," should be of great concern but seemingly are not. Armstrong's refusal to acknowledge the significance of the File Locator Number on the money order, which he and his fellow researchers apparently overlooked for decades but I discovered in a couple of hours on Google, likewise should be very troubling but seemingly is not. Instead, I have people who wouldn't understand federal regulations if one bit them in the ass telling me, a lawyer who has been studying and arguing state and federal regulations for 30+ years, that I don't know what I'm talking about. It's just bizarre.

Thanks to Bernie - it's always nice to encounter a voice of reason at a place such as this. Tin Foil Hat Central just about says it. Or as I have pointed out elsewhere, it's as though I have blundered into a fundamentalist church where, for some reason not entirely clear to me, we must attempt to shout down any dissent regardless of how minor the point may be. OK, Harvey and Lee contains some shoddy research ... OK, Armstrong is apparently not man enough to acknowledge his errors ... OK, Armstrong apparently overlooked the significance of the File Locator Number ... OK, Armstrong is apparently not serious enough about genuine historical research to confront the File Locator Number issue ... OK, OK, OK - but so what? Even if the entire "money order mystery" is a truckload of crap, which it is, and even if Armstrong has a bit of egg on his face, which it certainly appears to me that he does, of what real significance is this in the overall context of the JFK assassination??? The Armstrong sycophants truly remind me of Young Earth Christians, who are reduced to claiming that God "planted" the redshift in order to make the 6,000-year-old universe "seem" vastly older. Its the sort of thing you get only out of True Believers who are concerned solely about preserving their pet beliefs and not about the truth at all.

Edited by Lance Payette

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Being a diligent sort with nothing better to do, I spent some additional time reviewing the John Armstrong Archive at Baylor University (http://digitalcollections.baylor.edu/cdm/landingpage/collection/po-arm), which contains much of Armstrong’s research for Harvey and Lee. I mentioned this archive previously, seemingly without piquing anyone's interest. It is searchable and very easy to use.

Specifically, I downloaded Box 18, Notebook 2, Tab 22: Money Order, which results in a 139-page PDF. I challenge you to review this PDF and still tell us there is a “money order mystery.” You will find a veritable flurry of reports, teletypes, etc., concerning the search for the money order in the immediate aftermath of the assassination. You will find that Armstrong seizes upon any discrepancy (often a time discrepancy) to conclude that something has been fabricated or backdated, when in fact discrepancies are inevitable in such trying circumstances.

More specifically, I challenge you to read the following pages of the PDF and tell me you still see a conspiracy in the works: Page 17 (Harry Holmes’ report of 12-3-63 explaining the initial confusion in locating the money order stub in Dallas, which is entirely consistent with his later testimony on pages 123-124), pages 51-54 (the Secret Service’s detailed report, dated 11-26-63, as to how the money order was recovered), page 73 (Justice Department teletype dated 11-24-63, telling FBI offices in Chicago, Kansas City and New York to suspend efforts to locate the money order because it has been located in Washington), and pages 118-119 (a teletype dated 1-16-64, clarifying for the Postal Inspector in Fort Worth the assistance provided by Dallas in locating the money order). If you read nothing else, read the Secret Service's report.

An example of what Armstrong does is his discussion in his latest write-up of a "mystery" money order being recovered in Kansas City almost simultaneously with the "second" money order we know and love being recovered in Washington. In his latest write-up, Armstrong states ominously, “From Secret Service reports we learn that the postal money order found in Kansas City was sent to Assistant Chief Paterni. Yet the amount of this postal money order, the number of the money order, the date of the money order, and the payee shown on this money order remain unknown.” (As detailed in the Secret Service's report on pages 51-54, Deputy Chief Paterni actually did initiate the search for the money order located in Washington.)

If you read the actual report concerning Kansas City (PDF page 82), you will see that a Secret Service agent in Kansas City (Kroz) was told to make sure that postal officials in Kansas City were looking for the money order (where Wilmouth had said it would be have been sent); ten minutes later, a Secret Service agent in Chicago (Griffiths) telephoned an agent in Dallas (Stuart) to tell him that the money order was being searched for in Kansas City; during this conversation, Griffiths in Chicago learned that the money order had been located; whereupon, Griffiths in Chicago immediately telephoned Kroz in Kansas City and “advised that the money order had been recovered” (in Washington, obviously). Armstrong twists this into two money orders being recovered, one in Kansas City, one in Washington, the one in Kansas City mysteriously disappearing, and – bingo! – we’re off to the conspiracy races! (Armstrong’s latest write-up includes a “SYNOPSIS” statement that does refer to a money order being recovered in Kansas City; interestingly, Armstrong attempts to make this appear to be part of the report of the Kansas City-Chicago-Dallas exchange referred to above, but it is actually a report dated 11-25-63 out of the Secret Service's Chicago office. As far as I can discern, the reference to Kansas City was simply an error, which is certainly consistent with the Secret Service's much more detailed and high-level report dated the next day, pages 51-54).

Come on, people, this is just silly. At least insofar as the money order is concerned, Armstrong and his sycophants are weaving a fantasy out of whole cloth. I believe people are dazzled by the sheer volume of information presented by Armstrong and aren't willing to do the hard work of checking out what he says.

Edited by Lance Payette

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Come on, people, this is just silly. At least insofar as the money order is concerned, Armstrong and his sycophants are weaving a fantasy out of whole cloth. I believe people are dazzled by the sheer volume of information presented by Armstrong and aren't willing to do the hard work of checking out what he says.

And you can also see how easy it is for conspiracy believers, eager to "find" a conspiracy, to concoct and construct a conspiracy theory or a "cover-up" tailored to their needs. This Money Order topic being a perfect example. There were some discrepancies about "Kansas City vs. Washington", so CTers concoct a "second" money order which conveniently "disappears". When, in fact, there was no "second" money order at all. Just the one, found in Alexandria/Washington.

The exact same type of CTer concoction has occurred with respect to a lot of the other evidence in the JFK case too -- such as the mystery "Mauser" rifle (which never existed, of course) and the alleged bullet that many CTers are convinced fell off of Governor Connally's stretcher in Parkland Hospital and was then deep-sixed by evil plotters. No such bullet exists--and it never did (of course). It's the product of pure invention by conspiracists.

Another example is the theory of a whole bullet being found in the grass in Dealey Plaza within minutes of the assassination (which never happened, of course). And another is the theory that a whole bullet was recovered at JFK's autopsy. That never happened either. But many CTers insist it did (despite FBI agent James Sibert telling us in so many words that it didn't).

Edited by David Von Pein

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DVP said that the USPS held a box for REA orders at the post office and then delivered them, or had them picked up by the competitor.

~ sigh ~

Jimmy has the memory of a potato chip. He likes to totally ignore the fact that I proved that I was right about the way the post office handles COD money. Jimbo probably thinks I just made up this postal regulation below:

"Any mailer may use collect on delivery (COD) service to mail an article for which the mailer has not been paid and have its price and the cost of the postage collected from the recipient. If the recipient pays the amount due by check payable to the mailer, the USPS forwards the check to the mailer. If the recipient pays the amount due in cash, the USPS collects the money order fee(s) from the recipient and sends a postal money order(s) to the mailer."

jfk-archives.blogspot.com/2011/12/dvp-vs-dieugenio-part-72.html

DVP: The regulations cited below are not 1963 U.S. Post Office regulations (they're from August of 2003), and they don't deal directly with C.O.D. mail and packages sent to P.O. Boxes,

Give us a break will you. Please.

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Below is a perfect example of what I mean by Lance.

Come on, people, this is just silly. At least insofar as the money order is concerned, Armstrong and his sycophants are weaving a fantasy out of whole cloth.

I hate to tell you Lance, but you and DVP are the ones who weaved a fantasy.

You dreamed up a scenario in which PMO's were somehow segregated by the bank on site and bundled together so as to get around the fact that this particular PMO, which we call the Magic Money Order, has no evidence at all of going through the Federal Reserve System. Which it would have to do if it was genuine. (This parallels what DVP did with the handgun which he now tries to cover up with a 2011 reg which does not apply to post office boxes.)

Two big problems:

1.) No documented circular says this about the segregation of PMO's.

2.) Two bank supervisors, one in Vegas and one in LA--with a combined experience of about 70 years--says its not the case.

In other words it was a fantasy, which you are still trying to maintain. If this was in a court of law, with all the witnesses accountable, do you know how long the magic money order would last? The judge would be cracking up in about 15 minutes.

Consider:

Oswald never left his job that morning to mail it--maybe you are going to say the time cards are forged?

The actual money order number is out of order, not by a little but a lot.

Oswald then walked out of his way to mail it after he allegedly bought it. Skipping even more work.

That, magic money order was then shipped--according to the WC-- all the way to Chicago, unloaded, sorted, distributed to the right station, then handed to a carrier, and then delivered, then sorted at Klein's, and then carried over to the bank, and then deposited--all in less than 24 hours. :news

At about this point in the hearing, the judge would be smiling and the jury would be looking at their watches. When do I get out of this madhouse?

Then the attorney for Oswald would show the out of order money order, exhibiting the fact there is no evidence it ever went through the system. He would then put all the other checks LHO passed to show they did, and then put up on the screen the circulars and then bring in the two bank supervisors.

IMO, right about here he would move for a mistrial. And if I am the prosecutor I would agree, because the other end of the transaction, showing Klein's sent the wrong rifle, one they did not have, would be just as deadly. Forget the facts, that 1.) no one admits to ever giving him the weapon and in fact, 2.) the post office regs, which Holmes lied about, prohibited that to happen.

A nice by product of this is Holmes would be up on perjury charges.

Edited by James DiEugenio

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If this was in a court of law, with all the witnesses accountable, do you know how long the magic money order would last? The judge would be cracking up in about 15 minutes.

More B.S. from Jimmy D. (as per usual).

The cold hard immutable fact is that the rabid CTers of the Internet have blown up the "money order problem" to absurd levels of perceived and wholly unproven conspiracy.

The Hidell money order actually isn't a problem at all. Not even close. There is MUCH more evidence to prove the M.O. is a genuine and valid document than there is to even suggest it's a fraud.

And Jimmy D. apparently won't even consider the notion that Oswald went to the post office BEFORE he ever went to work on March 12th (vs. buying the M.O. after 8:00 AM). It's quite possible the post office opened prior to 8 AM. And even if it didn't, there are numerous other ways in which Oswald could have purchased the M.O. and still have put in his full day's work on March 12. Perhaps he was just a little late for work that day, but he was punched in at 8:00 anyway. Is that not a possibility? (Not in a CTer world, no.)

And, incredibly, due to their silly theory that the Hidell M.O. serial number was "Out Of Order", Jimmy and The Almighty John Armstrong think that the Main Dallas Post Office had a never-ending supply of blank U.S. Postal Money Orders on hand in 1962 and 1963, so that they would never EVER have to re-stock its supply of PMOs. (Hilarious.)

It's time for another Money Order Summary:

...Lee Oswald's writing is on the money order.

...All of the proper post office stamps are on the M.O.

...A Klein's stamp is on the M.O.

...A File Locator Number is on the M.O. (indicating it made it to the FRB).

...The M.O. was found at the Federal Records Center in Alexandria (exactly where it should have been located after proper processing).

...The "bleed-thru" on the M.O. has been explained (see Cadigan Exhibit No. 11).

...Waldman No. 7 is consistent in EVERY way with all other documents relating to Oswald's rifle purchase.

With all of this in evidence, Jimmy D. thinks a trial judge would be rolling in his robes laughing within 15 minutes of the Hidell Postal Money Order being presented in court.

James DiEugenio, as usual, is nestled firmly and comfortably in his little fantasy world of wholesale fakery and forgery.

Edited by David Von Pein

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