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Jim Hargrove

John Armstrong blasts the mail order rifle “evidence”

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The note was the first public evidence to link Oswald to the attempt on Walker. When confronted, Marina acknowledged putting the note in the book herself, and Paine was free of any suspicion. Paine would later assert that Oswald had gone to his hometown of New Orleans at Marina's urging to avoid detection for the shooting. Paine claimed that she gave a great deal of thought to Oswald's plot to kill Walker, how he had cased and photographed Walker's house while planning the murder. To her, it was proof that Oswald acted alone; he had shown he had the means and the desire to kill a public figure. (“Ricochet in Dallas” by D. Scheiber, November 1999,St. Petersburg Times)

Ruth claimed Marina had to have two books with her; one was entitled Our Child and the other was Book of Helpful Instructions. The FBI took seven latent fingerprints off the note; none of them matched Lee or Marina. Wesley Liebeler later asked an obvious question: Why would Oswald keep the incriminating notes and photos around for well over seven months?

One of the so-called surveillance photos of the Walker residence was identified as having been taken with the same Imperial Reflex camera responsible for the backyard photos. The Walker surveillance photos would be discovered among Oswald’s possessions at Ruth Paine’s home.

The contrived "Walker note", the photo of Walker's house, and the first person to name Oswald as taking part in the Walker shooting (Michael), all derive from Ruth and Michael Paine.

Coincidence?

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More of a crime than a coincidence, is my bet.

And, as Ray Mitcham pointed out, Ruth Paine spoke Russian. If memory serves (and it doesn't always) she also taught Russian somewhere.

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My wife, who was a social worker in Minsk and spoke nothing but Russian for the first 53 years of her existence, says the note is the work of someone with a poor command of Russian grammar, typical of someone who can speak Russian passably but not write it well. That could well be LHO.

Lance,
Wow! Please don't go into hibernation yet. At least consider this….
John Armstrong and I believe HARVEY Oswald (the guy shot by Jack Ruby) was most likely a World War II orphan who, before he was brought to the U.S., learned Russian from birth as a first or second language. But his exposure to Russian probably ended before he reached the age of 10, when he was brought to New York City, and it was probably also severely impacted by the war while he was still in Europe.
Please ask your wife if she feels that the note could have been written by someone with a biography like the one I've described above. I hope you see this and respond.

OK, just for you: Yes, my wife said that would be entirely possible. We have an example in our own family. My wife's sister was university-educated and lived and worked in Russia for her first 37 years. But she has been married to an American and has spoken English almost exclusively for more than 20 years. Even in this situation (i.e., where she once had a complete, educated adult command of Russian), she admits that she has forgotten a great many Russian words and she often communicates with my wife in writing in a phonetic "pidgin Russian" that my wife cannot read at all and can understand only when I read it phonetically out loud (which is quite comical). So, yes, the note could be someone who either never had a complete command of Russian or once did but then lost it due to circumstances. Russian is an extremely difficult language, at least IMHO. We have a couple of Russian-speaking friends who came to America when their children were in the 6-8 age range, and my wife is sure the kids are not going to be able to speak Russian at all by the time they are 15 unless the parents really work at maintaining their skills.

Thanks, and please thank your wife on my behalf. It's lucky we're not neighbors, or I'd be knocking on your door way too often to see if she'd be willing to study every piece of Russian-language stuff allegedly written by “Lee Harvey Oswald” that I could print out and bring over. It would be fascinating to know if she felt all the Russian examples, and there are quite a few of them, were written by the same person.
If some of these examples are phony, it might be surprisingly obvious to someone with your wife's background. I think anyone who takes a hard look at the so-called “evidence” in this case can see that much of it is fabricated or altered in some way and that the work is sometimes pretty sloppy. Here's an example….
Among the documents allegedly found at “Oswald's” North Beckley rooming house were W-2 forms from Dolly Shoe, Tujague's, and Pfisterer Dental Labs, supposedly detailing the places and times he worked as a teenager prior to joining the Marines. These documents are signed by FBI lab technician Robert Frazier, but are not signed by any of the Dallas police, nor are they included in the inventory lists prepared by Dallas cops.
John Armstrong believes these documents were forged by the FBI because the real employment histories involving these companies would have shown “Oswald” in two very different places at the same time, exposing what CIA accountant James Wilcott called “the Oswald Project.” One of the things John noted about the forms was that the typewriter fonts used to complete them appear very similar.
In the late 1990s, he had professional copies made of the three documents directly from the National Archives and also had blow-ups on transparency film made. At a Dallas JFK conference, he aligned the type on the three transparencies showing how very similar the typing appeared to be. At around the same time, I offered to send a set of those first generation copies of the three W-2 forms to an IBM archivist who specialized in historic type fonts on business machines. She said she had samples of thousands of different type impressions in her files.
John agreed to send me the prints, but he also said during a phone call something like, “Whatever you do, Jim, don't let this women know that this has anything to do with Lee Harvey Oswald. Black out his name carefully on the prints—and be sure that it can't be seen by holding it up to light or looking at it from different angles.” I said something like I thought he was worrying too much, that this woman wasn't a federal employee or anything, but he responded, “It doesn't matter. You have to do this research as a blind study. The minute anyone learns it's about Oswald, everything gets weird. Obscure the name or don't send it.”
And so I followed his instructions, and in a follow-up call with the archivist, she said that on very close examination the type font was actually quite unusual (it looked pretty normal to me), but that, in her opinion, all three W-2s were probably filled out on the same typewriter. I'll never know if I would have gotten the same reply had I said it was about “Lee Harvey Oswald.”
It will be interesting to see if you get a response about the Magic Money Order from the museum, but I'm afraid if you told them what this is all about, it will be hard for many of us to accept a conclusion that indicates it is genuine. I do believe it is quite true that research often gets weird when the subject is “Lee Harvey Oswald.”
Thanks again.
PS. I once asked John why he thought anyone forging documents supposedly from three different companies would be so careless as to do it on the same typewriter. He answered something like, “Because they really don't care very much. They're told to do a job and they just do what they're told, and little else.” And, of course, no one back in the day thought this “evidence” would be given so much scrutiny by all of us.

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Jim:

The extracts below probably belong in the Paine threads, but consider the following regarding the Russian language "hobby" that Ruth allegedly had (found mostly in "Harvey and Lee" by Armstrong):

Ruth was introduced to Marina Oswald because geologist Everett Glover thought that she was studying Russian with the hopes of becoming a teacher. Ruth went so far as to tutor one young student in Russian during 1963 at St. Mark's School in Dallas. Ruth Paine's stated reason for becoming so involved with the Oswalds was to submerse herself in the learning of the Russian language in order to use the language both in her Quaker-sourced Soviet/USA pen-pal exchanges as well as to teach Russian (albeit to one or two students). There is no evidence that she continued her study of Russian after Oswald's death.

Despite Ruth's years of Russian study, and her claim that she had Marina to move in so that she could improve her skills; she was forced to admit that "my actual skill didn't progress fast enough to be of any real use." Her Middlebury roommate Helen Mamikonian described Ruth's Russian as "very poor".

Ruth undertook two trips to/from Dallas/New Orleans on behalf of the Oswalds, provided Lee with driving lessons and car-use, acted as unpaid job-placement headhunter, took in the family as borders, and provided a free soft shoulder for Marina to unload her marital problems ... all in order to learn Russian? Her "help" provided to Harvey and Marina was quite a heavy payment for language school and linguistic/inter-cultural interests. it is unclear what language-learning resources Ruth must have used after Marina moved out, and whether or not Ruth continued teaching Russian (Martin Hay 2007).

In the early days after the assassination, Ruth Paine pitched in and helped law enforcement officers with translation until one Ilya Mamantov came on the scene. Mamantov was a Dallas White Russian and his mother-in-law was Dorothy Gravitis who had given Ruth Paine private Russian lessons. Gravitis heard Ruth Paine speak Russian and was frank in assessing her command of the language as "very poor", even for an American.

Wittingly or unwittingly, Ruth knew enough Russian to provide protective cover for Marina, who needed to hide her knowledge of English. Robert Webster told writer Dick Russell that Marina only spoke English to him when he was in the USSR (John Armstrong, Harvey and Lee). Lee knew that Marina owed Soviet intelligence some favors; otherwise, she probably would not have been allowed to leave, and would not have hid her knowledge of English to the public.

So Ruth's interest in Russian is suspect (a convenient excuse to take in the Oswalds), her command of the language passable but poor (she could have written the phony Walker letter stashed in the helpful books), and she appeared to lose interest in learning much Russian (or Marina for that matter) after the assassination. Her erstwhile teaching/tutoring career quickly faded after 1963. I've always wondered if Marina was a KGB "honey trap" who was doubled on her return to the USA, and then controlled or baby-sat by Ms. Paine.

Gene

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GK: Wittingly or unwittingly, Ruth knew enough Russian to provide protective cover for Marina, who needed to hide her knowledge of English. Robert Webster told writer Dick Russell that Marina only spoke English to him when he was in the USSR (John Armstrong, Harvey and Lee). Lee knew that Marina owed Soviet intelligence some favors; otherwise, she probably would not have been allowed to leave, and would not have hid her knowledge of English to the public.

​This is something that has always interested me. It is just too much of a coincidence that Marina met both Webster and Oswald in Russia. And if you read the interviews with the White Russians in the WC volumes, most of them don't understand how Marina was allowed to leave the USSR with a defector--usually that process took a long time. In fact, the southern wing--Russell, Boggs, and Cooper--had a hard time with it also.

Edited by James DiEugenio

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My bet is that Marina served the KGB as a honey trap for both Webster and LHO. But back in the USA, were Mrs. Paine and the Agency already protecting her (Marina) in the days not only after the hit, but before as well? If so, as Gene suggests, she surely had been doubled, or at least had played the role convincingly enough to keep the pros interested. She may have been trained from an early age in this sort of thing.

============ from Harvey and Lee ============

NOTE: In a 1997 interview Robert Webster told JFK researcher and author Dick

Russell that he met Marina Prusakova in Moscow in the summer of 1959 and spoke with

her in English. Webster said that Marina spoke English well, but with a heavy accent.

A year after Webster was sent to Leningrad by the Soviet Government, 400 miles from

Moscow, he met Marina again shortly after he applied for an exit visa so that he could

return to the US. [interview of Robert Webster by Dick Russell at Cape Cod, MA. 1997]

Marina's friend in Dallas, Katya Ford, said that when she asked Marina why Oswald

went to Russia, Marina told her that he worked for the Rand Corporation and helped

set up the American exhibit at the World Trade Exposition in Moscow. [WC Document 5,

p. 259; FBI interview of Katherine Ford by SA James P. Hosty, 11/24/63] Marina had

momentarily confused Harvey Oswald with Robert Webster, the 1st US "defector," whom

she met in Moscow (1959) and again in Leningrad (1960).

It is not a coincidence that both Webster and Oswald "defected" a few months apart in

1959, both tried to "defect" on a Saturday, both possessed "sensitive" information of

possible value to the Russians, both were befriended by Marina Prusakova, and both

returned to the United States in the Spring of 1962. These US "defectors," acting in perfect

harmony, were both working for the CIA.

--Harvey and Lee, p. 799

Copyright © 2003 by John Armstrong

Edited by Jim Hargrove

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It may even be simpler than that, it appears that Marina was interested in foreign visitors and the higher quality of entertainment they tended to enjoy. She hung out at the right places, dated some of them and ultimately came under GRU attention, hence her relocation under her Uncle's over sight in MInsk. She might have been a source in Russia, she may have just been interested in more interesting dates. There our some pretty solid interviews on this, including her move. The source escapes me but somebody else should have this well in mind. Letting her leave with Oswald might have been an administrative bonus, and no doubt they held open the vague possibility she might become some sort of "legal" open source in the US, certainly that appears to have concerned Hosty.

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Interesting Larry,

My question is what did Marina accomplish if she was somehow guided and connected to Russian Intel?

I see the Paine connections, the Dulles/Quaker connections and getting Oswald into Russia for intel of ANY kind - which our boys were starved to learn.

But Marina. What do you think about CE129 - her July 19, 1961 "date of issue" birth certificate in Russian - when she was already in the US by then... ??

img_1133_524_200.jpg

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David, I am not familiar enough with that level of detail to make a really meaningful comment. My impression is that the Russian bureaucracy was always through, but plodding, for all I know they could not come up with her original birth certificate after her departure but needed to clean up her records so they just grandfathered something in... I'll check with Bill, we have discussed the Oswald/Webster thing over and over but he remembers this sort of detail and see who it was who obtained the interviews about Marina and dating up foreign visitors including businessmen. Its probably all in his manuscript which is available on the MFF site. Bottom line, I have no doubt that her contacts with Oswald were observed given that she had already been warned about her foreign dates. All in all I suspect they were happy to have her go off with Oswald. However I also think Hosty was smart to have focused on her - his book makes it clear she was just as much a suspect to him as was Oswald.

As to what they could obtain, well they could obtain the same sort of open intelligence that the students the US who were being using as sources in Russia could. Even simple letters to friends or family could reveal a lot about the White Russian community in the US. Its important to keep in mind that a good deal of intelligence is very routine i.e. how was Marina processed into the US, who questioned her about what, how easy it was to make friends - with what type of people. Its always possible that some of her first contacts in the US were really Russian sleeper agents or source evaluating her for further use. And once she got fed up with her unpredictable husband, who knows what she might be willing to do. And it could all be handled through regular mail contacts. The amount of similar minutia which shows up in CIA documents is amazing; I have know doubt the same could be said for Soviet intelligence.

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I've always wondered if Marina was a KGB "honey trap" who was doubled on her return to the USA, and then controlled or baby-sat by Ms. Paine.

Seems plausible she was held under supervision while her husband paid off her debt to the US and perhaps one or more of his own. Makes the Paine household look like a hostage-for-ransom situation.

Edited by David Andrews

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The topic is Marina Oswald’s birth certificate, re- David Josephs' post #338 above. On CE129 there are two document numbers, and three dates.

I submit it’s a fake - you might agree. It was apparently made by Igor V Vaganov of the “ICO” team, because he signed the puzzle.

What we are about to do is grade-school level decryption, so hang in there, this will be fun.

It’s a number puzzle and it’s important that we put the numbers and months in the order they occur on the document.

(1) 17 JULY 1941

(2) 1941 14 AUGUST

(3) 1285

(4) 19 JULY 1961

(5) 100584

Now we will change the written out months to their corresponding numbers.

(1) 17 7 1941

(2) 1941 14 8

(3) 1285

(4) 19 7 1961

(5) 100584

In order, we’ll make a string of those numbers:

1771941194114812851971961100584

We are going to translate the numbers into letters, and each number to be translated needs to be between “0” and “25”.

17 7 19 4 11 9 4 11 4 8 12 8 5 19 7 19 6 11 0 0 5 8 4

Below is the Number/Letter translation device used in all ICO puzzles, and it's the simplest method known to mankind:

(A=0)(B=1)(C=2)(D=3)(E=4)(F=5)(G=6)(H=7)(I=8)(J=9)(K=10)(L=11)(M=12)(N=13)(O=14)(P=15)(Q=16)(R=17)(S=18)(T=19)(U=20)(V=21)(W=22)(X=23)(Y=24)(Z=25)

And here is our string of corresponding letters:

"RHTELJELEHMIFTHTGLAAFIE"

And those letters anagram to:

“LH FEMALE AT LEFT, JEH RIGHT. I”

Igor apparently wants us to make two puzzles, one using the numbers from the left hand page, and one using the numbers from the right hand page. Here they are seperated:

"RHTELJELEHMIF" "THTGLAAFIE"

And here they are anagrammed:

“EH FELLER HIT J. M” “A EH GIFT AT ‘L’”

I think those are the main anagrams Igor wanted us to find, and my guess is that this is a large puzzle. The next step would be to decode the anagram with ICO's (dreaded) 6-bit binary code. "EH FELLER HIT J. M." "A EH GIFT AT 'L'" decodes and anagrams to (footnote):

"THE W/LBJ FEMME-FATALE"

The "W" in the above answer could be regarded as standing for "W" Guy Banister, or it could be translated to its number equivalent - "22". i.e:

"THE LBJ 22 FEMME-FATALE"

Marina was "22" in 1963, but "22" in this puzzle answer is a quadruple entendre - I'll explain in Footnote #2.

And since you've read this far, here's a bonus, an anagram of "IGOR VLADIMIRS VAGANOV":

"VIVID ANAGRAM LOGOS. VOR"

"VOR" stands for "Vaganov, Oswald, Richard", also known as "ICO", "Igor, Case, Oswald"

As it turn out, the above anagram of Igor's full name needs a slight re-adjustment to the word "VIVID". Here is the decodable anagram:

"ID IVV's ANAGRAM LOGO, 'VOR'"

We are now being asked to decode “VOR”, and since “VOR” is less than six letters, we will need to use ICO’s Double Talk (DT) cipher below. For decoding, it works from the top down:

A..B..C..D..E..F..G..H..I..J..K..L..M..N..O..P..Q..R..S..T..U..V..W..X..Y..Z

K..L..M..N..O.P..Q..R..S.T.U..V..W..X..Y...Z..A..B..C..D..E..F..G...H..I...J

So we now have “VOR + FYB”, which anagrams to:

“V, RF BOY”

"IGOR VLADIMIRS VAGANOV's" name is a fake too, his real one is apparently "LEE" (Not Marina's husband, the other one. These two young men worked together).

Tom

Footnote:

Decode, “EH FELLER HIT J. M - A EH GIFT AT L

EHFELL ERHITJ MAEHGI = 011011 011011 000100, and, 100100 100100 111011 plus tags “FTATL”

Yield: MMEFTATL

LTATFI GHEAMJ TIHREL = 110110 010001 101101, and, 001001 010001 010010 plus tags “LEFHE”

Yield: WJABLEFHE. Total yield: MMEFTATLWJABLEFHE. anagram: THE LBJ 22 FEMME-FATALE

Footnote #2:

The number “22” appears to be a quadruple entendre. It was Marina’s age in 1963, it translates to “W” as in “WGB”, “22” was the day of the assassination, and there are many ICO puzzle references to a deadly “22” caliber Daisy air rifle: Compare “22 deadly Daisy”, and, “22 FEMME-FATALE”.

Edited by Tom Hume

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EVEN MORE EVIDENCE THAT

THE MAGIC MONEY ORDER WAS FAKED

Money%20Order.jpg

“Lee Harvey Oswald” allegedly purchased postal money order 2,202,130,462 in Dallas on March 12, 1963. That money order was allegedly used to purchase the rifle that, according to the Warren Commission, killed JFK. But it is VERY likely that the postal form bearing that serial number would have been put into service far later than March, 1963.

From http://harveyandlee.net/Mail_Order_Rifle/Mail_Order_Rifle.html:

LHO_MOs.png

The above shows LHO's purchase of money orders that he used to
to repay his loan from the State Department. Note the money orders
from Ft. Worth (Sept 1/Oct, 6 1963) run sequentially, as do the
money orders from Dallas (Nov 13/Dec 6, 1962) and (Jan 5-25, 1963).

On March 12, 1963, Oswald allegedly purchased postal money order 2,202,130,462 in the amount of $21.45 from the Dallas General Post Office (GPO). The rectangular holes, punched at the printing office when the money order was created, identified the serial number of the money order by code as 2,202,130,462. The round holes identified the purchase amount of the money order as $21.45. This was the postal money order allegedly purchased at the Dallas GPO and mailed to Klein's Sporting Goods in Chicago to pay for the Mannlicher Carcano rifle. Fact or fiction??

Let's begin by comparing the serial number of this postal money order (2,202,130,462) with the serial numbers of postal money orders previously purchased by Oswald at the same post office. Look at the serial numbers of money orders purchased by Oswald at the GPO (General Post Office) in Dallas (above) from November 13, 1962 thru December 6, 1962. The Dallas GPO sold 3887 money orders during this period, or about 1296 money orders per week (these were the old, blue-tinted money orders).

In preparation for the new yellow-tinted postal money orders, which were to be issued on January 5, 1963, the post office issued postal bulletin #20338. This bulletin, issued on 11/29/62, read, "The initial distribution will be automatic and based upon records as to usage in prior years. The initial supply should be sufficient for at least 3 months or until the next requisition cycle."

Based upon the only information currently available to researchers (the serial numbers of the money orders purchased by Oswald, as shown above) the Dallas GPO was selling about 1296 money orders per week. A 3-month supply of the new yellow-tinted money orders, first issued on January 5, 1963, should have contained around 16,000 money orders and lasted the Dallas GPO thru April 5, 1963 (a 3 month supply). The beginning serial number of the newly issued money orders was probably 2,202,000,000 (see above where LHO purchased order 2,202,000,060), and the serial number of the last of the initial batch of 16,000 money orders was probably around 2,202,016,000.

On the first day of issue (January 5, 1963), Oswald purchased a money order in the amount of $100 (2,202,000,060). Three weeks later, on January 25 Oswald purchased a money order for $100 (2,202,003,534) and another for $6.00 (2,202,003,535). From January 5 thru January 25, 1963, the Dallas GPO sold 3535 money orders, or about 1178 per week. The number of money orders sold during this period (1178 sold per week) is similar to the number of money orders sold in November/Dec, 1962 (1296 per week). At this rate (average of 1250 per week sold), the serial number of a money order sold on March 12, 1963 should have been around 2,202,014,137. A money order sold to Oswald on March 12, 1963 should have been within the first batch of money orders issued to the Dallas GPO on January 5, 1963. But it wasn't.

The serial number of the money order allegedly sold to Oswald (on March 12, 1963) was 2,202,130,462--a difference of 116,325 money orders. At this rate, assuming the post office was issued sequentially numbered money orders, the Dallas GPO would have to have sold 12,925 money orders per week (instead of the usual 1250 per week). There is no definitive answer or explanation as to why postal money order 2,202,130,462 is so much larger than expected, because the serial number of a money order sold on March 12, 1963 should have been within the original batch of 16,000 money orders furnished to the Dallas GPO on January 5, 1963(2,202,000,000 thru 2,202,016,000). Could postal money order 2,202,130,462 be from a subsequent batch/supply of money orders issued to the Dallas GPO? Yes, but only after the Dallas post office sold their original 3-month supply, which was supposed to last thru April 5, 1963.

Postal money order number 2,202,130,462 is consistent with the serial numbers of money orders issued to the Dallas GPO in January, 1963, beginning with 2,202,000,000. Serial number 2,202,130,462 suggests that this money order, if issued to the Dallas GPO in sequential order, should have been sold/issued in late 1964 or early 1965.

If Oswald did not purchase postal money order 2,202,130,462 on March 12, 1963, then how did this postal money order become an item of evidence?

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If Oswald did not purchase postal money order 2,202,130,462 on March 12, 1963, then how did this postal money order become an item of evidence?

Need to ask Harold Marks and Robert Jackson..

With the information SS Chief Paterni gave based on the PMO stub which Holmes claims was found and which gives the # of the PMO.

Without that book of PMO's - gone; the stub - gone; the person who Holmes claimed found it - gone, and what transpired at the Archives with "computers being warmed up" well before anyone was supposedly even sent to the Archive.

Marks later confirms that in an audit the PMO amount paid is matched to the FRB documentation of how much was paid to reconcile any overpayments related to fake PMO's.

So faked routing numbers aside - all that was needed was to audit the FRB payment pack to Klein's for that PMO...

Like so many items of evidence which would ice the case against Oswald - neither the PMO matching stub, or any documentation other than Kleins misdated and mismatched deposit from that day offers any corroboration for this piece of paper going thru the Fed Res Banking system.

This PMO book, like McWatter's transfer book which would place these items of incriminating evidence into context - do not exist, nor are there any records to confirm these books were either in Dallas or on McWatter's person... all we have is the evidence, nothing exists to corroborate it.

Harold%20Marks%20confirms%20FRB%20proces

So even though Holmes tells the "Chief" that morning that the PMO would be in DC not KS, the SS and USPS POI's are still focused on KS until just before 7:55pm Central time or 8:55pm EST.

SS%20looking%20for%20Postal%20Money%20Or

Except it is not until 10:10pm, over an hour later, that the PMO is "recovered" on begins it's journey. There are at least 4 different "FINDINGS" of this PMO and not once piece of corroborating evidence

SA%20Parker%20gets%20the%20ORIGINAL%20Mo

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I am editing my "Innocent Explanations for Mail Order Rifle Anomalies" (Version 5) based upon some Harry Holmes WC testimony, posted by David Josephs on another thread. (Post 126 on this page.)

Mr. BELIN. So what happened?

Mr. HOLMES. So in about an hour Postal Inspector McGee of Chicago called back then and said that the correct amount was $21.95---$21.45 excuse me, and that the shipping---they had received this money order on March the 13th, whereas I had been looking for March 20.


So then I passed the information to the men who were looking for this money order stub to show which would designate, which would show the number of the money order, and that is the only way you could find one.


I relayed this information to them and told them to start on the 13th because he could have bought it that morning and that he could have gotten it by airmail that afternoon, so they began to search and within 10 minutes they called back and said they had a money order in that amount issued on, I don't know that I show, but it was that money order in an amount issued at the main post office, which is the same place as this post office box was at that time, box 2915 and the money order had been issued early on the morning of March the 12th, 1963.

Mr. HOLMES. I gave that information to my boss by telephone. He called Washington immediately. Of course this information included the money order number. This number was transmitted by phone to the chief inspector in Washington, who immediately got the money order center at Washington to begin a search, which they use IBM equipment to kick out this money order, and about 7 o'clock Saturday night they did kick out the original money order and sent it over by, so they said, by special conveyance to the Secret Service, chief of Secret Service at Washington now, and it turned out, so they said, to be the correct money order. I asked them by phone as to what it said on it, and it said it had been issued to A. J. Hidell, which to me then was the tip that I had the correct money order. Up to then I didn't know whether I had the correct money order or not.

Mr. BELIN. Is there anything else that we haven't covered that you think might be helpful here and you think we ought to talk about, Mr. Holmes? Have you found now in your records the money order number that was involved in the purchase of the rifle?


Mr. HOLMES. The money order number that was found in Washington and matched the original money order was number 2--202--130--462, issued at the main office in Dallas, Tex., on March 12, 1963, in the amount of $21.45.


Mr. BELIN. Do you have any information on the money order for the pistol or how the pistol was paid for, or was there a money order?


Mr. HOLMES. No, sir.

Edited by Sandy Larsen

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