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Jim Hargrove

John Armstrong blasts the mail order rifle “evidence”

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David:

I am intrigued by the selection of the Italian rifle as the incriminating weapon. And i am interested in whether you see any significance to this particular rifle (of all the rifles in the universe) being the one.

Early on, there are reports of three different rifles being the murder weapon after the assassination: (1) a British Enfield, (2) a German Mauser and (3) an Italian Mannlicher Carcano. All three are apparently in the TSBD, and each can be linked with various principals, from Frazier, to Shelley to Oswald. Some think the Carcano was planted because it was so cheap, or because it was readily available by mail order. Perhaps it is because it was difficult to trace its provenance (i.e. imported by imported by Crescent Firearms, shortened version, retrofitted and modified, several serial numbers etc.).

CIA had supplied Argentine Mausers to Castro for revolution: combined with Oswald's perceived association with Cuba and communism, the Mauser links Castro to Kennedy's murder. Perhaps opposing forces (e.g. FBI) switched the Mauser for a Carcano to detour an invasion of Cuba. However, I remain convinced that there is some deeper significance to the selection of this particular style and make.

Gene

Gene -

I had started to answer this by looking more deeply into the Enfield option.... the Enfield I was thinking of was Wesley's taken from him by Rose & Stovall

What makes you think it was at the TSBD?

the Rifle Truly talked about in relation to Warren Caster does not ID the "larger" one.

Mr. BALL. On November 20, 1963, you saw two guns owned by Mr. Warren Caster, can you tell me where and when and the circumstances under which you saw these guns?

Mr. TRULY. It was during the lunch period or right at the end of the lunch period on November 20. Mr. Caster came in the door from the first floor and spoke to me and showed me two rifles that he had just purchased. I looked at these and picked up the larger one of the two and examined it and handed it back to Mr. Caster, with the remark that it was really a handsome rifle or words to that effect, at which time Mr. Caster explained to me that he had bought himself a rifle to go deer hunting with, and he hadn't had one and he had been intending to buy one for a long time, and that he had also bought a .22 rifle for his boy.

Mr. BALL. What happened to these two rifles, Mr. Truly, that Mr. Caster got during the noon hour?

Mr. TRULY. They were placed back in the carton and Mr. Caster carried them out of the lobby door with him. That's the last I saw them.

moore_frazier_enfield-rifle_frazier_zpsr

Yet I also came across this article dated DEC 7 from DALLAS which states that "info gathered today indicates..." the Enfield Ryder discusses had a scope mounted but was not the Italian rifle credited with JFK's death.

"It was disclosed yesterday that Oswald's Italian rifle came from Chicago with a scope ready for mounting" On Dec 6th? is when this was disclosed?

I went further into the Ryder story by looking at his statements and then wondered why no one in this thread mentions Whitworth or Hunter? I come to find that Whitworth & Hunter were taken to see Marina and discuss if this woman was the same woman they saw... http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/russ/testimony/oswald_m2.htm

The testimony of Mrs. Lee Harvey Oswald, Edith Whitworth, and Gertrude Hunter was taken at 11 a.m., on July 24, 1964

I originally pasted some of the exchanges here yet I am simply offering the link - reading these interviews and what is concluded can best be summed up by Marina:

Mrs. HUNTER. Well, just them things, then at once it dawns on me about her, but she had ribbons in here hair.

*Mrs. OSWALD. What did I have?

Mrs. HUNTER. She was wearing a pigtail or something--her hair was long, and I remember one side the string was hanging down longer and that was at the furniture store.

Mr. LIEBELER. You mean the pigtail?

Mrs. HUNTER. What I can remember about her was the sad expression in her face--she had a very, very sad expression in her face.

Mr. LIEBELER. Was anybody else with Mrs. Oswald when you saw her in the grocery store?

Mrs. HUNTER. Well, I didn't pay no attention to who she was with, or who was with her or nothing about it. I just remember her.

Mr. LIEBELER. You just remember her?

*Mrs. OSWALD. I never wore any ribbons or bows in the hair. Maybe it was somebody Just like me?

Anyone reading thru this exchange can see that everyone is talking about a different place and person - not Marina - yet possibly Lee Harvey... except as you read on you find this occurs during the week when Ozzie was at work at the TSBD during the week of November 4th.

moore_rifle_enfield-aarc-cia115-03_0001_

With regards to the MAUSER - it's hard to dismiss all the identifications of that rifle and how readily the "MAUSER" and "7.65" are seen on the top.

Also to remember is that Boone and Weitzman had ample time and opporunity BEFORE they wrote these affidavits to know the true identity of the rifle Day carried out.

They were not required to name the specific rifle, maker and/or caliber - but they did anyway on a legal dicument they both signed their names to - not done lightly I suupose given this was a detective and a patrolman.

For someone claiming to only take a brief look, Weitzman was able to describe details of the weapon which someone who hadn't spent their lives around rifle as he had would not notice.

Mr. BALL - Take E here and make a mark on E as to the location of the place where the gun was found.

Mr. WEITZMAN - Same area.

Mr. BALL - The same area and the arrow marks the place where the gun was found?

Mr. WEITZMAN - Yes, sir.

(Off record discussion.)

Mr. BALL - In the statement that you made to the Dallas Police Department that afternoon, you referred to the rifle as a 7.65 Mauser bolt action?

Mr. WEITZMAN - In a glance, that's what it looked like.

Mr. BALL - That's what it looked like did you say that or someone else say that?

Mr. WEITZMAN - No; I said that. I thought it was one.

Mr. BALL - Are you fairly familiar with rifles?

Mr. WEITZMAN - Fairly familiar because I was in the sporting goods business awhile.

Mr. BALL - You also said at the time the rifle was found at 1:22 p.m., is that correct?

Mr. WEITZMAN - I believe that is correct. I wouldn't commit myself there because I am not sure; I'm not positive that was it.

Mr. BALL - In this statement, it says Captain Fritz took charge of the rifle and ejected one live round from the chamber.

Mr. WEITZMAN - Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL - He did eject one live round?

Mr. WEITZMAN - Yes, sir; he did eject one live round, one live round, yes, sir. You said remove anything from the rifle; I was not considering that a shell.

Mr. BALL - I understand that. Now, in your statement to the Federal Bureau of Investigation, you gave a description of the rifle, how it looked.

Mr. WEITZMAN - I said it was a Mauser-type action, didn't I?

Mr. BALL - Mauser bolt action.

Mr. WEITZMAN - And at the time I looked at it, I believe I said it was 2.5 scope on it and I believe I said it was a Weaver but it wasn't; it turned out to be anything but a Weaver, but that was at a glance.

Mr. BALL - You also said it was a gun metal color?

Mr. WEITZMAN - Yes.

Mr. BALL - Gray or blue?

Mr. WEITZMAN - Blue metal.

Mr. BALL - And the rear portion of the bolt was visibly worn, is that worn?

Mr. WEITZMAN - That's right.

Mr. BALL - And the wooden portion of the rifle was what color?

Mr. WEITZMAN - It was a brown, or I would say not a mahogany brown but dark oak brown.

Mr. BALL - Rough wood, was it?

Mr. WEITZMAN - Yes, sir; rough wood.

Mr. BALL - And it was equipped with a scope?

Mr. WEITZMAN - Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL - Was it of Japanese manufacture?

Mr. WEITZMAN - I believe it was a 2.5 Weaver at the time I looked at it. I didn't look that close at it; it just looked like a 2.5 but it turned out to be a Japanese scope, I believe.

Mr. BALL - Didn't you, when you went over to the railroad yard, talk to some yardman?

Mr. WEITZMAN - I asked a yardman if he had seen or heard anything during the passing of the President. He said he thought he saw somebody throw something through a bush and that's when I went back over the fence and that's when I found the portion of the skull. I thought it was a firecracker portion; that's what we first were looking for. This was before we knew the President was dead.

Mr. BALL - Did the yardman tell you where he thought the noise came from?

Mr. WEITZMAN - Yes, sir; he pointed out the wall section where there was a bunch of shrubbery and I believe that's to the right where I went over the wall where the steampipe was; that would be going north back toward the jail.

Mr. BALL - I think that's all.

and finally the MC rifle.....

I did my first CTKA article on the plan Oswald would need to employ under the assumption he did it.... http://www.ctka.net/2014/The%20evidence%20is%20the%20conspiracy.html

There is much more to it than just throwing it into theback of Wesley's car - I am confident this essay will show that stating Oswald made a split second decision to do the deed - ie not much advanced planning as the WCR states - and was able to work the timings to perfection are a construct of the FBI and not possible. Let me know what you think.

The way the event unfolded it is hard to believe that Phase 1 Attack Cuba as a result of the assassination was anything but a diversion to create incriminating evidence against a patsy. If so we SHOULD have found more than one rifle yet in different places on the 6th floor, Grassy Knoll, Dal Tex or whereever... the tell tale evidence left behind suggests a shot from the car bumper behind the Grassy Knoll fence and from some location behind the limo.

My gut tells me there is some significance to the Carcano - but like the true meaning of crytical lyrics in a song - only the author knows.

Prove who was connected to the planting of that rifle and we may have a better idea of why the Carcano. It could have made much more sense to have him buying it at HL Greene in Dallas.

I must say as well that from my view of it, C2766 and those other 99 rifles were never at Kleins nor ever ordered or shipped to Hidell or Ozzie POBox. Yet it does seem to appear on the 6th floor with a scope by the back stairs without fingerprints - until it gets back from the FBI...

The FBI would have no way of knowing what they say in their reports from that day - that "N"2766 was received by Kleins in June and C27"4"6 was received in March 1963. Another FBI acknowledge rifle source has pages of serial numbers with no prefix including a 2766... http://www.ctka.net/2015/JosephsRiflePart1.pdf

Rupp is the only person in this story who sends “Crescent-to-Klein’s” order info to Feldsott in

NYC after shipment. For Feldsott to have order info for a June 18, 1962 shipment, Rupp or some

other rifle dealer needs to have completed an order and sent it to Klein’s. Rupp offers no such

evidence while the Century Arms to Empire Wholesale Sporting goods order of June 29, 1962 had a

“2766” Carcano in the shipment. Amazingly none of the 1300 rifles sent from

Canada have the letter prefix – whether this is “C”2766 cannot be known. WCD881 p67 https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=11277&search=rupp#relPageId=70&tab=page

I'm sorry for the long winded reply - your question is very interesting. It may alos be as simple as Waldman's desire to cooperate.

found this too ??? http://www.dallasnews.com/obituary-headlines/20110915-nat-pinkston-the-fbi-agent-who-linked-rifle-to-lee-harvey-oswald-dies-at-95.ece

Mr. Pinkston, who spent much of his 28-year FBI career in Dallas investigating interstate auto theft, traced the Carcano rifle used to kill the president to Klein’s Sporting Goods in Chicago.

On Nov. 22, 1963, Mr. Pinkston saw the presidential motorcade pass by from a third-floor window of Dallas police headquarters, according to the account he provided the Oral History Collection at The Sixth Floor Museum at Dealey Plaza in 1994.

Thirty minutes after the assassination, Mr. Pinkston was in the Texas School Book Depository investigating the crime.

The next day, he started his hunt for the rifle’s owner with gun expert Ruby Goldstein of Honest Joe’s pawnshop. Using the serial number, he traced the gun back to Chicago and Oswald’s mail order.

I posted this over at DPF to see if we can't track down more info on SA Pinkston. https://deeppoliticsforum.com/forums/showthread.php?15483-FBI-SA-Nat-Allan-Pinkston-says-he-found-that-Kleins-sold-C2766&p=107087#post107087

Seems this story is to prove that DAY walked out with the 40" FC rifle C2766 and the FBI was all over it... Strange.

DJ

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You guys are quite lucky with these mistakes though...When I make a mistake I pay a price, but for some, mistakes just seem to strengthen their argument.

Excellent point, Bernie.

The same point I've been trying to make recently about Mr. DiEugenio.

--Tommy :sun

PS But when it comes to H & L afficionados, these "favorable mistakes" are very pernicious IMHO.

Edited by Thomas Graves

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Thanks for your response, David. Lots to think about here.

I've raised this question before, as it seems the MC is not a random or unimportant choice. Perhaps there a ballistic rationale for this particular weapon (e.g. impossible to silence, easy to break-down, commonly available, etc.). It is certainly not the type of weapon that one would trace back to expert military sniper operations. Assuming that this was a thoughtful plant on the part of calculating planners - and of all of the possible weapons to chose from - why pick the lowly MC to frame LHO?

William Orchard's "The Shots in Dealey Plaza" (November 2011) states that the decision to pin an inferior Italian rifle on the patsy was "a sign of disrespect for the FBI" as far as the crime scene was concerned ... a show of contempt, to consciously to create problems for the FBI with the selection of a poorly designed weapon. He goes on to speculate that the MC was not only used as an insult to the FBI (who they knew would have to investigate and reconcile the murder scene) but intended to make it clear to the entire world that the assassination had been carried out by the Italian mafia ... a symbol of Italian pride. In this sense, the MC is as much a patsy as is Oswald.

There are some things that just stand out as glaring signs of contrived plotting (e.g. Tippit's murder) and for me, this particular MC weapon is one of those. It was traced back to Kleins very quickly, just as Oswald was arrested in record-breaking time. The MC comes across as some form of internal joke or message being traded between the plotters and the FBI. Or perhaps it was a signal (on the part of a faction trying to stop the plot) that the shooting was not what it appeared to be, and not possible from the TSBD location. I struggle to put my finger on it, and cannot help but see it as symbolic and strategic.

Gene

PS. It also has the fingerprints of Harvey and Angleton, imho

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I went further into the Ryder story by looking at his statements and then wondered why no one in this thread mentions Whitworth or Hunter? I come to find that Whitworth & Hunter were taken to see Marina and discuss if this woman was the same woman they saw...

.

Whoa, DJ... please slow down!! Let's shut down the warp drive engines and savor the deliciousness of your point for a moment.

So here's what the earthlings are up to in Irving and Dallas in the situation you describe….

Early in November 1963, Edith Whitworth is sitting in her Irving furniture store (a former gun shop with a gun sign still in front) with her friend Gertrude Hunter. A man walks in who she and Mrs. Hunter later say was “Lee Harvey Oswald” carrying an object wrapped in brown paper that appears to be part of a gun. “Oswald” is also with a woman who, as DJ points out, probably wasn't Marina. This “Oswald” says he needs a gun part, which Whitworth remembers as a “plunger.” Mrs. Whitworth tells “Oswald” that her shop no longer has a gun department, but directs him to the nearby Irving Sports Shop [where Dial Ryder just happens to be an employee.] She also noted that Oswald drove an automobile.

The story by Whitworth and Hunter was a double whammy for the Warren Commission and the FBI. Not only did it give credence to the Dial Ryder saga, which the investigators now desperately needed to bury, but it also provided yet more evidence that there was a “Lee Harvey Oswald” active in Dallas before the assassination who regularly drove a blue, two-toned 1957 or 1958 Chevy. [Classic LHO didn't have a drivers license and didn't drive.]

This description of “Oswald” driving a 2-tone blue Ford exactly matched the description barber (and Irving town council member) Cliff Shasteen gave of the car “Oswald” drove to his barber shop on a half dozen or more occasions. Here's how John Armstrong concluded his write-up on this matter in Harvey and Lee.

The problem for the FBI and Warren Commission was not only the issue of a

repair tag, but the allegation that Oswald drove to the Irving Sports shop in the middle

of the week. This was yet another indication that someone was impersonating Oswald. The

FBI, aware that Oswald could not be in two places at the same time, looked for ways to

deal with the problem. On June 19, 1964 SAC Gordon Shanklin (Dallas FBI office)

wrote a memo which stated:

"Inspector J. R. Malley noted, 'they (Whitworth and Hunter) are the only two

who have placed Oswald with going to the gun shop where the tag shows up in

Oswald's name.' Mr Malley said they are trying to get away from the possibility

that Oswald had actually had any work done in the work shop.''

--Harvey and Lee, pp. 755

Megathanks, David, for bringing this up!!!!

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What a sterling piece of work by John.

I mean what he does here, is he shows so many breaks in the evidentiary chain that I don't see how anyone can take the proposition that Oswald ordered and got that rifle seriously anymore.

And the thing of course is this: he could have gone even longer on the other side of the transaction, the delivery, but who wants to read that long?

He even shows where the FBI screwed up in their cover story! How rich is that?

Glad he gave credit to David Josephs at the end. David was also showing that it is highly unlikely that Klein's ever had that rifle at the time the alleged money order was sent. Between David, Gil Jesus and John, this has been proven about four different ways.

And that is what created all the subterfuge later.

And in a real court of law, with a real trial, Harry Holmes should have been indicted.

Edited by James DiEugenio

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The unanswered anomaly not answered in above exchange with Jim... "From John's write-up: “That morning (11/23/63), only a couple of hours after Ryder arrived at the Sports Shop, FBI Agent Emory Horton arrived at Dial Ryder's house in Irving (circa 10:30 AM). Warren Commission attorney Liebeler asked Ryder, 'How did Horton know to come out to the sports shop?' Ryder replied, 'Actually, I don't know....'”

I still haven't had time to read up on that section as promised. It jarred with me though to be honest. I couldn't myself understand how he, or anyone else, could have been onto it so quick.

Then I read your follow up post and you provide the answer..."On November 25 (Monday) FBI Agent Emory Horton arrived at Dial Ryder's house in Irving at 10:30 am."

So Ryder being quoted as not understanding how Horton came by his name is disingenuous isn't it? By implication we are led to believe it is suspicious that the FBI could be on the ball so quick. Horton's visit came after an anonymous caller made at least two calls to the media and the FBI. I'm sure the timeline being stated as 23/11 was an honest mistake. You guys are quite lucky with these mistakes though...When I make a mistake I pay a price, but for some, mistakes just seem to strengthen their argument.

Bump for Jim...

I thought you may have at least addressed this point Jim. At first I thought it was a genuine error, it's easy to do. But you guys do it ALL the time. Then when it's raised you completely ignore it and dump another chapter no doubt also full of these 'mistakes'.

I can't be bothered to check it all out anymore when underhand tactics and blatant lies like this are the chief weapon I would be fighting against. I don't want to spend a couple of days reading through all the evidence, highlight the inevitable whacking great holes, distortions and lies (like the above), then spend a further week getting you to apologise for, retract, or at least simply acknowledge your deliberate mistakes.

Did you know when you asked how the FBI could have turned up at Ryder's the day after the assassination that in actual fact they did no such thing? It was two days after that. (As you well knew, because you used that date yourself in a further post!)). That is, after the anonymous calls made by Ryder to the media.

But your 'mistake' just happens to strengthen your "suspicions", and hopefully others too. Shameful tactics...

Edited by Bernie Laverick

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I went further into the Ryder story by looking at his statements and then wondered why no one in this thread mentions Whitworth or Hunter? I come to find that Whitworth & Hunter were taken to see Marina and discuss if this woman was the same woman they saw...

.

Whoa, DJ... please slow down!! Let's shut down the warp drive engines and savor the deliciousness of your point for a moment.

So here's what the earthlings are up to in Irving and Dallas in the situation you describe….

Early in November 1963, Edith Whitworth is sitting in her Irving furniture store (a former gun shop with a gun sign still in front) with her friend Gertrude Hunter. A man walks in who she and Mrs. Hunter later say was “Lee Harvey Oswald” carrying an object wrapped in brown paper that appears to be part of a gun. “Oswald” is also with a woman who, as DJ points out, probably wasn't Marina. This “Oswald” says he needs a gun part, which Whitworth remembers as a “plunger.” Mrs. Whitworth tells “Oswald” that her shop no longer has a gun department, but directs him to the nearby Irving Sports Shop [where Dial Ryder just happens to be an employee.] She also noted that Oswald drove an automobile.

The story by Whitworth and Hunter was a double whammy for the Warren Commission and the FBI. Not only did it give credence to the Dial Ryder saga, which the investigators now desperately needed to bury, but it also provided yet more evidence that there was a “Lee Harvey Oswald” active in Dallas before the assassination who regularly drove a blue, two-toned 1957 or 1958 Chevy. [Classic LHO didn't have a drivers license and didn't drive.]

This description of “Oswald” driving a 2-tone blue Ford exactly matched the description barber (and Irving town council member) Cliff Shasteen gave of the car “Oswald” drove to his barber shop on a half dozen or more occasions. Here's how John Armstrong concluded his write-up on this matter in Harvey and Lee.

The problem for the FBI and Warren Commission was not only the issue of a

repair tag, but the allegation that Oswald drove to the Irving Sports shop in the middle

of the week. This was yet another indication that someone was impersonating Oswald. The

FBI, aware that Oswald could not be in two places at the same time, looked for ways to

deal with the problem. On June 19, 1964 SAC Gordon Shanklin (Dallas FBI office)

wrote a memo which stated:

"Inspector J. R. Malley noted, 'they (Whitworth and Hunter) are the only two

who have placed Oswald with going to the gun shop where the tag shows up in

Oswald's name.' Mr Malley said they are trying to get away from the possibility

that Oswald had actually had any work done in the work shop.''

--Harvey and Lee, pp. 755

Megathanks, David, for bringing this up!!!!

The Irving Sports Shop where Ryder worked was just further down the street from the Irving Furniture Store where "Oswald" and "Marina" had asked if they could supply spares for a rifle in early November. (Ryder said the rifle to be fitted with the scope was early November.)

"Oswald" was driving a two tone Blue and white Ford. (He couldn't drive?)

Mrs Whitworth, in the furniture store, thought that "Marina" --" doesn't look like she does today, because her face was fuller then and it might have been because she just had this baby then and still hadn't gone back like she was."

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I went further into the Ryder story by looking at his statements and then wondered why no one in this thread mentions Whitworth or Hunter? I come to find that Whitworth & Hunter were taken to see Marina and discuss if this woman was the same woman they saw...

.

Whoa, DJ... please slow down!! Let's shut down the warp drive engines and savor the deliciousness of your point for a moment.

So here's what the earthlings are up to in Irving and Dallas in the situation you describe….

Early in November 1963, Edith Whitworth is sitting in her Irving furniture store (a former gun shop with a gun sign still in front) with her friend Gertrude Hunter. A man walks in who she and Mrs. Hunter later say was “Lee Harvey Oswald” carrying an object wrapped in brown paper that appears to be part of a gun. “Oswald” is also with a woman who, as DJ points out, probably wasn't Marina. This “Oswald” says he needs a gun part, which Whitworth remembers as a “plunger.” Mrs. Whitworth tells “Oswald” that her shop no longer has a gun department, but directs him to the nearby Irving Sports Shop [where Dial Ryder just happens to be an employee.] She also noted that Oswald drove an automobile.

The story by Whitworth and Hunter was a double whammy for the Warren Commission and the FBI. Not only did it give credence to the Dial Ryder saga, which the investigators now desperately needed to bury, but it also provided yet more evidence that there was a “Lee Harvey Oswald” active in Dallas before the assassination who regularly drove a blue, two-toned 1957 or 1958 Chevy. [Classic LHO didn't have a drivers license and didn't drive.]

This description of “Oswald” driving a 2-tone blue Ford exactly matched the description barber (and Irving town council member) Cliff Shasteen gave of the car “Oswald” drove to his barber shop on a half dozen or more occasions. Here's how John Armstrong concluded his write-up on this matter in Harvey and Lee.

The problem for the FBI and Warren Commission was not only the issue of a

repair tag, but the allegation that Oswald drove to the Irving Sports shop in the middle

of the week. This was yet another indication that someone was impersonating Oswald. The

FBI, aware that Oswald could not be in two places at the same time, looked for ways to

deal with the problem. On June 19, 1964 SAC Gordon Shanklin (Dallas FBI office)

wrote a memo which stated:

"Inspector J. R. Malley noted, 'they (Whitworth and Hunter) are the only two

who have placed Oswald with going to the gun shop where the tag shows up in

Oswald's name.' Mr Malley said they are trying to get away from the possibility

that Oswald had actually had any work done in the work shop.''

--Harvey and Lee, pp. 755

Megathanks, David, for bringing this up!!!!

The Irving Sports Shop where Ryder worked was just further down the street from the Irving Furniture Store where "Oswald" and "Marina" had asked if they could supply spares for a rifle in early November. (Ryder said the rifle to be fitted with the scope was early November.)

"Oswald" was driving a two tone Blue and white Ford. (He couldn't drive?)

Mrs Whitworth, in the furniture store, thought that "Marina" --" doesn't look like she does today, because her face was fuller then and it might have been because she just had this baby then and still hadn't gone back like she was."

Marina said she had never been in the furniture store.

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The unanswered anomaly not answered in above exchange with Jim... "From John's write-up: “That morning (11/23/63), only a couple of hours after Ryder arrived at the Sports Shop, FBI Agent Emory Horton arrived at Dial Ryder's house in Irving (circa 10:30 AM). Warren Commission attorney Liebeler asked Ryder, 'How did Horton know to come out to the sports shop?' Ryder replied, 'Actually, I don't know....'”

I still haven't had time to read up on that section as promised. It jarred with me though to be honest. I couldn't myself understand how he, or anyone else, could have been onto it so quick.

Then I read your follow up post and you provide the answer..."On November 25 (Monday) FBI Agent Emory Horton arrived at Dial Ryder's house in Irving at 10:30 am."

So Ryder being quoted as not understanding how Horton came by his name is disingenuous isn't it? By implication we are led to believe it is suspicious that the FBI could be on the ball so quick. Horton's visit came after an anonymous caller made at least two calls to the media and the FBI. I'm sure the timeline being stated as 23/11 was an honest mistake. You guys are quite lucky with these mistakes though...When I make a mistake I pay a price, but for some, mistakes just seem to strengthen their argument.

Bump for Jim...

I thought you may have at least addressed this point Jim. At first I thought it was a genuine error, it's easy to do. But you guys do it ALL the time. Then when it's raised you completely ignore it and dump another chapter no doubt also full of these 'mistakes'.

I can't be bothered to check it all out anymore when underhand tactics and blatant lies like this are the chief weapon I would be fighting against. I don't want to spend a couple of days reading through all the evidence, highlight the inevitable whacking great holes, distortions and lies (like the above), then spend a further week getting you to apologise for, retract, or at least simply acknowledge your deliberate mistakes.

Did you know when you asked how the FBI could have turned up at Ryder's the day after the assassination that in actual fact they did no such thing? It was two days after that. (As you well knew, because you used that date yourself in a further post!)). That is, after the anonymous calls made by Ryder to the media.

But your 'mistake' just happens to strengthen your "suspicions", and hopefully others too. Shameful tactics...

Bernie,

If I said the SA Horton arrived at Ryder's house on 11/23, I obviously misspoke, as can be clearly seen by the correct date given in other parts of my posts. Here is how John Armstrong's article reads about that (emphasis added):

It is worth repeating that Ryder told the WC that he did not mention the repair ticket to anyone that weekend (Nov 23/24). The next day, around 10:30 in the morning (Monday, 11/25/63), FBI Agent Emory Horton arrived at Dial Ryder's house in Irving. How and why would the FBI know to contact 25-year-old Ryder, at his home, instead of contacting Woody Greener, the owner of the shop? Warren Commission attorney Liebeler asked Ryder, "How did Horton know to come out to the sports shop?" Ryder replied, "Actually, I don't know.....I told him I had a ticket with the name Oswald, no date, no address, just for drilling and tapping and boresighting-no address, or name; he didn't say he'd like to see the ticket.....we went up to the Irving Sports Shop and I opened it up and got the ticket and showed him."

While you are hard at work trying to show how my simple mistake, corrected numerous times by me, was “disingenuous” you make the following whopper when you write:

“That is, after the anonymous calls made by Ryder to the media.” PLEASE SHOW ME YOUR EVIDENCE THAT RYDER MADE THE ANONYMOUS CALLS!!! He certainly swore otherwise during his testimony:

Mr. LIEBELER. When did you first discover this tag?

Mr. RYDER. Well, it's kind of funny, actually, how I found the tag. My workbench generally is cluttered up, you know how tools get scattered around and I was--I had been to the Evinrude Service School----

Mr. LIEBELER. Here in Dallas?

Mr. RYDER. Yeah, at the Marriott over here and we were talking about it that evening and, of course, by the time I got back from the service clinic was just about time to close and we left and that Saturday afternoon I started cleaning off the workbench and I found the ticket of which I didn't say anything to anybody else there and when Mr. Horton came out on Monday, well, then I told him we had a tag. I didn't want to keep anything back but after he showed me the picture and everything I apparently drew my conclusions of not working on that particular gun anyway.

. . . .

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you ever talk to the newspaper reporter about this?

Mr. RYDER. There were several out here after the FBI had been out, and we told them the same thing that we told the FBI.

Mr. LIEBELER. But you didn't talk to any newspaper reporter before the FBI came out here?

Mr. RYDER. No.

Mr. LIEBELER. You are quite sure about that?

Mr. RYDER. I am positive about that.

Mr. LIEBELER. It was your impression at the time the FBI came that they were making a routine check of all guns?

Mr. RYDER. That is my opinion. That is the idea I had.

Let's just review the basic here:

In early November a gun-toting, car-driving “Lee Harvey Oswald” enters Edith Whitworth's furniture/ex gun shop looking for a “plunger” for his gun, but is sent instead to the shop where Dial Ryder works.

On the day after the assassination, the same day Curry tells the world the FBI has located an order form in Hidell/Oswald's handwriting for a $12.78 rifle (the cost of a rifle from Kleins without a scope), Dial Ryder finds work ticket #18374 on his desk with “Oswald” and “drill and tap $4.50” and “bore sight $1.50” written on it. Ryder said he told no one about the ticket that weekend, but there are nevertheless at least two anonymous phone calls about it.

The FBI shows up at Ryder's house Monday morning, and then meets him at the Irving Sports Shop. Several days later, the FBI announces that the actual cost of the rifle—with scope—was now $21.45, On June 19, 1964 Gordon Shanklin (SAC Dallas FBI office) writes a memo which includes these words: “Mr. Malley said they are trying to get away from the possibility that Oswald had actually had any work done in the work shop.”

Get away indeed! Now that the Official Story was that the rifle was purchased from Kleins with a scope, the Ryder incident had to be debunked. Otherwise, it might look like someone was trying to frame “Lee Harvey Oswald.”

Of course, some people don't find this story suspicious at all… pointing to just “minor anomalies!” The real suspicions lead them to… John Armstrong and me and our “shameful tactics!"

What a tired old game they play.

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“That is, after the anonymous calls made by Ryder to the media.” PLEASE SHOW ME YOUR EVIDENCE THAT RYDER MADE THE ANONYMOUS CALLS!!! He certainly swore otherwise during his testimony:

I just thought I too would join in the speculation and "suspicion" and then sell it off as a fact. Irritating isn't it? However I think there is more to my speculation, that is, that the originator of this tag would be the first to know of its existence. Either that or he was coerced into doing (and/or admitting to) something he knew not to be true.

What became of Ryder? Did he just carry on being a gunsmith? Did he ever talk of his bizarre experience of being embroiled in this story. Or was he one of 'them'?

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What a sterling piece of work by John.

I mean what he does here, is he shows so many breaks in the evidentiary chain that I don't see how anyone can take the proposition that Oswald ordered and got that rifle seriously anymore.

And the thing of course is this: he could have gone even longer on the other side of the transaction, the delivery, but who wants to read that long?

He even shows where the FBI screwed up in their cover story! How rich is that?

Glad he gave credit to David Josephs at the end. David was also showing that it is highly unlikely that Klein's ever had that rifle at the time the alleged money order was sent. Between David, Gil Jesus and John, this has been proven about four different ways.

And that is what created all the subterfuge later.

And in a real court of law, with a real trial, Harry Holmes should have been indicted.

The more I read of Harry the more he smells like a less ambition Gerald Ford.... kept his eyes out, and when called upon, delivered.

Whoa, DJ... please slow down!! Let's shut down the warp drive engines and savor the deliciousness of your point for a moment.

LOL... The article is right there... their testimony is a click away... thanks for posting it... now to speculate a bit

So we see this Oswald focused on setting up Harvey the shooter, the communist with a Russian wife - as opposed to the Cuban related Oswald who I firmly see as Harvey in most cases (ie Odio)

Two separate paths of the same story of two stories?

==============

and Jim D... The first link I found related to Nat http://www.dallasnews.com/obituary-headlines/20110915-nat-pinkston-the-fbi-agent-who-linked-rifle-to-lee-harvey-oswald-dies-at-95.ece

then I found

Society of Former Special Agents of the FBI, Inc. 2007

Interview of Former Special Agent of the FBI
Nat A. Pinkston (1940 – 1968)
By Brian R. Hollstein
On July 19, 2007
Edited for spelling, repetitions, etc. by Sandra Robinette on August 24, 2007. Final edit with Mr.
Pinkston’s corrections by Sandra Robinette on September 20, 2007.

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“That is, after the anonymous calls made by Ryder to the media.” PLEASE SHOW ME YOUR EVIDENCE THAT RYDER MADE THE ANONYMOUS CALLS!!! He certainly swore otherwise during his testimony:

I just thought I too would join in the speculation and "suspicion" and then sell it off as a fact. Irritating isn't it? However I think there is more to my speculation, that is, that the originator of this tag would be the first to know of its existence. Either that or he was coerced into doing (and/or admitting to) something he knew not to be true.

What became of Ryder? Did he just carry on being a gunsmith? Did he ever talk of his bizarre experience of being embroiled in this story. Or was he one of 'them'

According to Wikipedia, Leo Sauvage interviewed Dial Ryder roughly a half century ago, and Ryder told him (emphasis added) it was “either another rifle or another Oswald.” [The Oswald Affair, Leo Sauvage, World Publishing Company, 1966, p. 67]

As to your sheer speculation that Ryder himself made the anonymous calls--which you tried to present as fact—if you know even the basics of this case you surely know there is a far more likely explanation….

The same people involved in framing “Oswald” throughout most of October and November probably sent the “Oswald” lookalike to Edith Whitworth's store and Dial Ryder's shop, AND made the anonymous calls. These are....

The same people involved in sending an Oswald lookalike to the Sports Drome Rifle Range on numerous occasions, several times creating a scene and once shooting at another guy's target;

The same folks who sent someone resembling “Oswald” and using his name (and undoubtedly an “Oswald” drivers license which supposedly didn't exist) to the Downtown Lincoln Mercury dealership where he test drove a car at wrecklessly high speeds saying he would soon come into enough money to buy a new car;

The same conspirators who sent an “Oswald” lookalike to the Southland Hotel parking garage (Allright Parking Systems) and applied for a job and asked how high the Southland Building was and if it had a good view of downtown Dallas;

The same people who sent a fellow who looked like “Oswald” hitch-hiking on the R.L. Thornton Expressway while carrying a 4 foot long package wrapped in brown paper who introduced himself to Ralph Yates as “Lee Harvey Oswald,” discussed the President's visit, and asked to be dropped across the street from the Texas School Book Depository (where Russian-speaking “Lee Harvey Oswald” was already working).

This explanation is far more likely true than your unsupported speculation that Ryder himself made the calls.

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"This explanation is far more likely true than your unsupported speculation that Ryder himself made the calls."

No it isn't...

Unsupported speculation is just that: it isn't grade-able, and it doesn't come by degree. Your unsupported speculations and suspicions are still that, however superior you feel they may be to other people's unsupported speculations. But, like me...you have zilch proof! Difference is, I admit it.

Bit by bit 'Lee' is slowly being inserted into this story: having exhausted all the other "suspicious" 'sightings' of our enigmatic 'Lee', we are now dredging the bottom with doppelgangers who had absolutely NO resemblance to LHO.

"The same people involved in sending an Oswald lookalike to the Sports Drome Rifle Range on numerous occasions..."

Here we go...They were identical except that they looked nothing like each other. He was 'undercover' in a safe house but sometimes went out fishing and buying trucks.

And again... "The same folks who sent someone resembling “Oswald” and using his name..." "The same conspirators who sent an “Oswald” lookalike to the Southland Hotel parking garage" and "The same people who sent a fellow who looked like “Oswald” hitch-hiking on the R.L. Thornton Expressway while carrying a 4 foot long package wrapped in brown paper"

Ok we get it. You've driven your point home with a sledgehammer. Someone posing as Oswald, who looked like him, was going around implicating LHO. Let's be straight talking. 'Lee' was being used to implicate 'Harvey. in the up coming assassination. To do this, as you have amply demonstrated, it is imperative that said doppelganger should bear a very close resemblance to LHO at least, or the entire plot falls on its arse! Agreed?

It's Achilles heel time again Jim. We all know what question is coming next. It is one you have all tried to brush under the carpet for years. How did the plotters know that these two individuals, picked from adolescence, would grow into lookalikes ?

I don't expect an answer soon. Or at all...

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Interesting item I pulled up from the DPD archives:

2800-027.gif

Lee Harvey Oswald's record of discharge from the USMC and transfer to the USMC Reserves. Note the height at 71" (5' 11") and the weight at 150 lbs.

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