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Jim Hargrove

John Armstrong blasts the mail order rifle “evidence”

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Here is a cancelled passport showing the same height of 5' 11".

2800-028.gif

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It's Achilles heel time again Jim. We all know what question is coming next. It is one you have all tried to brush under the carpet for years. How did the plotters know that these two individuals, picked from adolescence, would grow into lookalikes ?

I don't expect an answer soon. Or at all...

Is that the best you got, Bernie? REALLY????

Russian-speaking Harvey and American-born Lee didn't look all that much alike... just enough alike to fool casual observers. That sort of loose resemblance is EASY to determine, even when the subjects are 10 years old... or less. Just look at the pictures at the top of the homepage on my website: HarveyandLee.net. In the very top image, American-born Lee Oswald is shown at far left (in a photo taken by his brother Robert); Russian-speaking Harvey Oswald is shown at far right in his famous mug shot. In between is CIA BS.

Megathanks, as always, to Robert Prudhomme for his evidence pointing out that athletically built, American-born Lee Oswald was 5' 11" tall and weighed 150 lbs. We all know that Russian-speaking Harvey was a scrawny guy, at least 2 inches shorter.

Let's talk MUCH MORE, Bernie, about Oswald lookalikes.

Just to get the ball rolling, let's talk, in great detail, about Laura Kittrell! I'll go first and you can whine about it, as always ....

Here's a VERY short write-up on Ms. Kittrell and her observations of the differences between the Two Oswalds.

http://harveyandlee.net/Kittrell/Kittrell.htm

Let's keep talking, Bernie. Don't give up!!

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It's Achilles heel time again Jim. We all know what question is coming next. It is one you have all tried to brush under the carpet for years. How did the plotters know that these two individuals, picked from adolescence, would grow into lookalikes ?

I don't expect an answer soon. Or at all...

Is that the best you got, Bernie? REALLY????

Russian-speaking Harvey and American-born Lee didn't look all that much alike... just enough alike to fool casual observers. That sort of loose resemblance is EASY to determine, even when the subjects are 10 years old... or less. Just look at the pictures at the top of the homepage on my website: HarveyandLee.net. In the very top image, American-born Lee Oswald is shown at far left (in a photo taken by his brother Robert); Russian-speaking Harvey Oswald is shown at far right in his famous mug shot. In between is CIA BS.

Megathanks, as always, to Robert Prudhomme for his evidence pointing out that athletically built, American-born Lee Oswald was 5' 11" tall and weighed 150 lbs. We all know that Russian-speaking Harvey was a scrawny guy, at least 2 inches shorter.

Let's talk MUCH MORE, Bernie, about Oswald lookalikes.

Just to get the ball rolling, let's talk, in great detail, about Laura Kittrell! I'll go first and you can whine about it, as always ....

Here's a VERY short write-up on Ms. Kittrell and her observations of the differences between the Two Oswalds.

http://harveyandlee.net/Kittrell/Kittrell.htm

Let's keep talking, Bernie. Don't give up!!

"Is that the best you got, Bernie? REALLY????"

It's all I need.

Russian-speaking Harvey and American-born Lee didn't look all that much alike... just enough alike to fool casual observers.

It's just that two posts up you made a MASSIVE deal about how much alike they were. Remember? Sure you do, it was said to back up your argument then, when you needed it to. Now, it looks a bit stupid, even childish, to admit that outright so we change tack.

Don't you get bored with having to do all this cheating?

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"The same folks who sent someone resembling “Oswald” and using his name..." "The same conspirators who sent an “Oswald” lookalike to the Southland Hotel parking garage" and "The same people who sent a fellow who looked like “Oswald” And another Oswald” lookalike on RL Freeway...

Four references to a "lookalike" in just four paragraphs on post #58. When challenged on the risibility of such an unlikely scenario, we get this....

"Russian-speaking Harvey and American-born Lee didn't look all that much alike... just enough alike to fool casual observers."

I love the "casual observers" bit. These are your STAR witnesses!!! Without them you have less than nothing!

It's taken nearly five pages but at last we are finally introduced to "Russian speaking Harvey and American born Lee". This post started off about the chain of events regarding Kleins and slowly morphed into yet another episode from the Twilight Zone. At least the other sightings claimed he looked like Oswald yet Ryder didn't positively identify him as Oswald; maybe 'Lee' was busy fishing or buying trucks (as young reckless doppelgangers do!).

Tack and weave....

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Now that you've brought up the subject yourself for the third time in this thread, Bernie, are you FINALLY willing to talk about the two Oswalds? Why not start talking about the EVIDENCE, rather than parsing my choice of words and calling me names?

Tell us why the gunshot wound just above "Lee Harvey Oswald's" elbow disappeared in just a few years.

Tell us how "Oswald's" height changed from 5' 9" to 5' 11" and then went back to 5' 9".

Explain why Harvey Oswald, according to George deMohrenschildt, preferred to read Russian classic literature in the original Cyrillic Russian.

Here some other pieces of evidence:

Explain the IMPOSSIBLE 1953 school scenario: Harvey at Youth House for truancy followed by Beauregard JHS in New Orleans while Lee has good attendance both semesters at PS 44 in NYC.
Tell us all about John Pic's inability to recognize clear photographs of his own half brother.
Talk about the refusal of the Social Security Administration to corroborate the official story of "Oswald's" pre-1962 income, offering instead "Copies of three pages of the Warren Commission Report regarding employment of Lee Harvey Oswald prior to service in the Marine Corps."
The Marine Corps records are a gold mine: give us a logical explanation for Harvey Oswald's trip to Formosa (Taiwan) while Lee was being treated for VD in Japan.
Talk about the Bolton Ford incident while Harvey was in Russia.
Prattle on about Marita Lorenz's secret testimony describing Lee Oswald with anti-Castro operatives in Miami and the Everglades while Harvey was in Russia.
Explain how Lee Oswald visited the Texas Employment Commission, filling out forms and taking tests, while Harvey was in Russia.
Answer these simple questions: Could Lee Harvey Oswald drive a car? Did he have a drivers license?
Tell us all about the well documented appearance of Lee Oswald in the balcony of the Texas Theater soon after the murder of J.D. Tippit with the simultaneous arrest of Harvey Oswald on the main floor of the same theater.
Explain the behavior of the FBI in the first 48 hours of the "investigation," during which the Bureau confiscated many of "Lee Harvey Oswald's" school records and employment histories. Six months later, the Bureau decided to test for fingerprints on boxes in the so-called "sniper's nest."

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The differences and similarities were there - yet since few if any ever see these two side by side, they would not know about what Sturgis and others tell us - one Oswald was bigger, heavier and from the South... the other wasn't. One was a fighter and more of a thug, the other more cerebral.

There are definite and obvious differences between the two which are easily illustrated side by side.... from their size, to the shoulder slope, to the shapes of their heads and hair, to the way they stand.

The man next to tiny Marina here is supposed to be 5'11 150+ lbs (his discharge size)

whereas the man Ruby kills is barely 5'9 and 135 lbs.... nice trick to shrink from age 20 to 24 and then change facial characteristics.

These are simply visual representations of the mountains of evidence which establish the existence of two different men.

This post is not designed to change anyone's mind, only to put visuals with the descriptions of the two men/boys and spark interest in the discussion.

For those who are convinced H&L is not supported by evidence... I respectfully disagree.

Oswald%20-%20Harvey%20square%20shoulders

Ozzie holding June photo is taken a week after the passport photo yet they are not the same person.

Oswald-LeeandHarvey.jpg

and they fill out a tshirt so similarly

oswald_color%20compairson_zpsnm3tqe7h.jp

BronxZooHARVEYandLEEin6thgrade-close-up_

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Here is a cancelled passport showing the same height of 5' 11".

2800-028.gif

Hey Bob...

Here is a composite of the entry and exit paperwork... the 17 year old got bigger and stronger by Sept 59 yet somehow shrinks and loses his identifying marks..

(edit - I thought I had combined them - this is only his discharge info... here is the other showing the 5'8" 131 lb boy.

Amazing how these stats are reflected on Oswald's autopsy sheets 7 years later.

Into%20and%20out%20of%20the%20USMC_zpswa

OswaldMarinedischargeheight-weightv3.jpg

Edited by David Josephs

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Thanks much to DJ and Robert for posting their graphics. (Apparently, I used up my graphics quota here sometime in the middle of last year and haven't been able to post any more images since.)


I think we should point out to skeptics like Bernie that the most of the evidence for two Oswalds is not based solely on the similarities between the two kids but more on the fact that the second oswald identified himself as "Oswald" or "Lee Oswald" or "Lee Harvey Oswald." In many cases, there is written evidence as well.

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If there were two Oswalds, and I believe there were based on photos, that's interesting. But the existence of two Oswalds does not prove the CIA had a hand in JFK's assassination.

The CIA may have used Oswald or his identity. That's unremarkable. It's interesting but unremarkable.

Would the CIA want, even today, to conceal its use of doubles? You bet.

But the doubling goes to the cover-up.

The question is not, what role did the CIA play in JFK's assassination?

The question is, why has the CIA played cover-up in the JFK assassination?

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I thought this was about the rifle evidence?

Anyway, those interested in that fascinating topic will have a real treat in store for them on this week's Black Op Radio.

Len, John and myself talk about this for over an hour.

I have to say, some of its actually funny since the evidence trail is so bad, I could not help but crack up.

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Here is something of interest:

“There is an intriguing but unexplained reference to "Harvey" in Oswald’s CIA file. In 1978, former CIA Director Richard Helms was testifying before the House Assassinations Committee when he was asked about a CIA memo dated November 25, 1963. The document mentioned “the laying on of interviews with Lee Harvey Oswald” in 1960, which caused Committee Counsel [Michael] Goldsmith to ask If the CIA had every contacted Oswald Helms responded negatively (this testimony is excerpted from Committee hearings and appears in Appendix B of Spy Saga by Philip Melanson.) Goldsmith also asked about the “Harvey” reference.

MG: I would like to draw your attention to the last line on this memorandum. It makes reference to the Harvey story.

RH: Yes

MG: Do you know what Harvey story that is referring to?

RH: No, I do not.”

So was it Harvey Lee and Lee Harvey Oswald or William Harvey. An invisible rabbit and Jimmy Stewart. Some other Harvey. We will never know most likely.

Page 125

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Searching around on a big newspaper database this morning, I was surprised to find that references to the imaginary $12.78 rifle with scope from Kleins continued in many daily papers well into the month of December 1963, long after the FBI had officially changed the price of the “Oswald/Hidell” order to $21.45. And it got me to thinking….

How could the FBI be so stupid as to invent the mail order sale of a $12.78 rifle with scope from Kleins when, in fact, no such rifle existed at the time. And so I decided to look at some of the Kleins ads again, and then it became clear.

I'm not allowed to upload graphics here, but you can easily duplicate what I found by going to images.google.com and searching for “Kleins” and “rifle” and “Oswald.” The amazing result is that every ad I saw for a $12.78 rifle appeared right under a picture of a “6.5 Italian carbine” with a scope attached. The copy immediately below doesn't say there is no scope on the $12.78 rifle.

But immediately under the $12.78 rifle description is a line that reads:

“Carbine with Brand New Good Quality 4x Scope – 3/4” diameter, as illustrated… $19.95”

Maybe a Kleins ad writer was being a little tricky… and J. Edgar Hoover fell for it! Hoover saw the ad, announced within hours of JFK's murder that Oswald/Hidell had bought a $12.78 rifle with scope from Kleins, and that the handwriting on the order matched “Oswald's,” knowing full well that in the coming days his lab could fabricate all the documents needed to seal the deal.

But his dumb mistake reading the ad helped us to finally collapse the whole house of carbines…. I mean cards.

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Jim Hargrove,

IMO, the FBI was trying to frame Oswald, but it had a problem. The problem was connecting a Mannlicher-Carcano to Oswald.

In history, Oswald bought the murder weapon, a Mannlicher-Carcano purchased from Klein's.

The press bought the story Oswald purchased the murder weapon. And buys it today.

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I was surprised to find that references to the imaginary $12.78 rifle with scope from Kleins continued in many daily papers well into the month of December 1963.

[...]

How could the FBI be so stupid as to invent the mail order sale of a $12.78 rifle with scope from Kleins when, in fact, no such rifle existed at the time.

[...]

Maybe a Klein's ad writer was being a little tricky and J. Edgar Hoover fell for it! Hoover saw the ad, announced within hours of JFK's murder that Oswald/Hidell had bought a $12.78 rifle with scope from Kleins, and that the handwriting on the order matched “Oswald's,” knowing full well that in the coming days his lab could fabricate all the documents needed to seal the deal.

Why on Earth can't the conspiracy believers of the world figure out something so incredibly simple as the $12.78 vs. $21.45 discrepancy without resorting to terms like "imaginary" or "fabricate" or "invent"?

Reprise.....

JIM HARGROVE SAID:

Warren Commission loyalists want us to believe that this uncashed, unendorsed money order is legitimate proof of purchase by “A. Hidell” of a rifle that was shipped to Hidell via a Dallas P.O. Box under the name of “Oswald,” contrary to U.S. postal regulations, for a price of… well… first it was $12.78 for a rifle without a scope as pointed out by dozens of American dailies for nearly a week after the assassination.

As one example of many, a Nov. 23 article by the New York Times wire service, picked up in daily newspapers in many cities, including the Nov. 24 Salt Lake Tribune, reported the following: “Handwriting, analyzed by the Federal Bureau of Investigation in Washington as Oswald's on an assumed-name order to a Chicago mail order house last March 20 for a $12.78 rifle, similar to the assassination weapon.”

When the saga of Dial Ryder and the scope didn't pan out, the FBI apparently lost all its reports of a $12.78 rifle without a scope. But, like magic, "Oswald's handwriting" suddenly appeared on a new and improved money order, this time for $21.45 for a rifle with a scope.

A magic money order to purchase a magic rifle that shot magic bullets. It was truly an age of miracles!

DAVID VON PEIN SAID:

Jim,

There's no "magic" or "miracles" of any kind involved here at all. And there's no sinister or underhanded cover-up involved either. The reason why the media was reporting the $12.78 cost for the rifle (sans the scope) was quite simple --- they were simply referring to the Klein's ads that were currently running in various magazines in November of 1963. So they were merely reporting on the CURRENT price of the gun in their TV and newspaper reports, without bothering to factor in the proper "With Scope" price. Big deal.

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-8qPwzVnkaIQ/UBsE30QLFYI/AAAAAAAAGW0/oTfplUk3gZA/s1600/Klein's-Ads.png

As for any "new and improved money order, this time for $21.45 for a rifle with a scope" --- that's a lot of baloney too, because as early as 11/23/63, we find documentation showing that a money order that was definitely handled by Klein's Sporting Goods AND the First National Bank of Chicago in the amount of $21.45 was recovered at the Federal Records Center in Alexandria, Virginia, on the night of November 23rd, the day after the assassination. This documentation is all laid out in a goodly amount of detail in Commission Document #75 and Commission Document #87.

So, Jim Hargrove, do you think that the FBI and Secret Service reports that appear in CD75 and CD87 are phony documents of some kind? And do you think that a money order in the amount of $21.45 was NOT actually found at the Records Center in Alexandria at all?

Did the Secret Service get together with the FBI guys to make sure they were on the same page regarding putting the $21.45 figure in both of their reports?

And then there's Waldman #7 too, which also shows the $21.45 figure, which perfectly matches the amount on the money order and the amounts shown in CD75 and CD87.

Waldman 7 was found in the Klein's files (as Bill Waldman confirmed). So, should I believe that William Waldman was part of the "conspiracy" too? Is there ANYBODY who wasn't trying to railroad Lee Harvey?

http://jfk-archives.blogspot.com/2015/10/jfk-assassination-arguments-part-1058.html

Edited by David Von Pein

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To David Von Pein….

There is plenty of evidence at the National Archives incriminating “Lee Harvey Oswald,” and all of it is phony. For one tiny example….

A few years after the assassination, Atty. Mark Lane interviewed three Dealey Plaza witnesses to the assassination of JFK and showed how the FBI altered their statements. These Mark Lane interviews recently were uploaded to YouTube by JFK researcher Gil Jesus. See the proof of FBI report falsifications right here.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ODXoISgU-0M

William Waldman certainly did not have to be a part of the conspiracy to convict “Lee Harvey Oswald.” He only had to say a few things the FBI asked him to, and, if he wouldn't do that, the FBI and/or Warren Commission merely had to alter his testimony, just as happened so clearly to the witnesses in the YouTube video linked above.

In his article on the mail order rifle, John Armstrong mentions Waldman 47 times, and shows, again and again, how the information he ALLEGEDLY supplied was untrue and how FBI reports and other documents were fabricated and backdated. Here is one short segment of his article:

Six months later, in May, 1964, Warren Commission attorney David Belin asked Waldman when the money order was deposited. Waldman testified, "I CANNOT specifically say when this money order was deposited by our company....." Of course Waldman could not say when the money order was deposited, because there was no date of deposit on the money order and the $13, 827.98 deposit slip was dated February 15, 1963--a month before the $21.45 money order was allegedly purchased by Oswald in Dallas. This FBI report is yet another fabrication.

No bank stamps or dates on the postal money order


Waldman was a middle age businessman, and VP of Klein's Sporting Goods. David Belin was an attorney, with years of experience in business matters. Either of these men could have examined the front and back side of postal money order 2,202,130,462, looking for a bank stamp that showed the date of deposit. The absence of a dated bank stamp on a check, money order, or bank draft, would cause most business people and bankers to conclude the item was never deposited to a bank or cashed. The fact that Belin did not ask Waldman about a dated bank stamp on the money order is very suspicious, and suggests that Belin intentionally refrained from asking this question. And for a very good reason. If the money order was never deposited, then Kleins would not have shipped C2766 to Oswald. He could not have shot at General Walker. His photo holding the rifle would not have appeared on the cover of Life Magazine. He could not have carried the rifle to the 6th floor of the TSBD. He could not have shot and killed JFK.

There is no proof that Waldman reviewed Klein's bank records on November 22/23. If he had reviewed bank records he may have seen a single deposit for $13,827.98, which was a total of hundreds of deposit items listed on an adding machine tape. But none of these individual items were identifiable as cash, checks or money orders. Waldman could not have seen a postal money order in the amount of $21.45 deposited on November 22/23. The postal money order shown to him by the WC testimony did not have a date of deposit, nor a bank stamp, nor a stamp from the FRB of Chicago nor a stamp from the FRB of Richmond. There was nothing, then or now, that indicated this postal money order was ever deposited to a financial institution or cashed. This FBI report, backdated to November 23, 1963, was a another fabrication.

The Secret Service asked Waldman about the $13,827.98 deposit, which Waldman allegedly said included not one, but two $21.45 money orders (see both Waldman Exhibits 10, below). Waldman pointed out that the bank had listed the date of this deposit as 2-15-63; however, Waldman allegedly stated that the bank had definitely made a mistake on this date, as the date of deposit was 3/15/63. But Waldman then said that he had no way of proving it was the wrong date. NO WAY OF PROVING IT?? If a $13,827.98 deposit was made on 3/15/63, instead of on 2/15/63 as shown on the deposit slip, then Waldman simply needed to produce the Klein's bank statement for the month of March, 1963. But he did not.

The fact that neither Waldman, the FBI, the Secret Service, nor the Warren Commission requested Kleins bank statement for March, 1963, in order to prove the $13,827.98 deposit was made on March 15, is reason to believe the paper adding machine tapes and the non-stamped bank deposit slip (shown below as Waldman 10) are FBI fabrications. Both items were created for the purpose of showing that a postal money order in the amount of $21.45 was deposited to Klein's account at the First National Bank of Chicago.

The FBI's greatest piece of chicanery happened in the wee hours of the night of Nov 22-23, 1963, when the FBI secretly took “Oswald's Possessions” from the Dallas Police Department, transported them to Washington, D.C. altered them, and then secretly returned them to Dallas, only to publicly send them to Washington. D.C. a few days later. Among a great many other alterations, a Minox “spy camera” became a Minox “light meter.” FBI agent James Cadigan inadvertently spilled the beans about the secret transfer during his sworn WC testimony, which was altered by the WC.

CLICK HERE (see roughly half way down the page) to see Cadigan's altered WC testimony, which John Armstrong believes is in the handwriting of Allen Dulles....)

By mid-1964, the FBI had a procedure in place to materially alter the testimony of its own agents, even over the objections of Warren Commission attorneys. Read the FBI instructions here.

And by the way…

The FBI has a long and sordid history of inventing all kinds of incriminating evidence favorable to the prosecution. In more recent news of FBI malfeasance:

"Pseudoscience in the Witness Box: The FBI faked an entire field of forensic science," is the headline from the April 22, 2015 online edition of Slate Magazine.

The same Slate article quoted a Washington Post story of a few days earlier, which stated: “The Justice Department and FBI have formally acknowledged that nearly every examiner in an elite FBI forensic unit gave flawed testimony in almost all trials in which they offered evidence against criminal defendants over more than a two-decade period before 2000.”

Remember the Frederick Whitehurst scandal from the 1990s? Whitehurst was one of the Bureau's top scientists, and he complained for more than a decade toward the end of the last century about the FBI's vaunted crime lab faking evidence and slanting it toward the prosecution. According to the Feb. 27, 1998 edition of CNN:

--------------------------------------

For 10 years Whitehurst complained mostly in vain about lab practices. But his efforts finally led last April to a scathing 500-page study of the lab by Justice Department Inspector General Michael Bromwich.

Bromwich blasted the famed lab for flawed scientific work and inaccurate, pro-prosecution testimony in major cases, including the Oklahoma City and World Trade Center bombings.

Bromwich recommended major reforms, discipline for five agents that is still under consideration and transfer of Whitehurst to other duties.

------------------------------------

I don't trust ANY report (including reports allegedly from other U.S. Government agencies) that the FBI provided to the Warren Commission. So many, many of them are provably phony.

But because J. Edgar Hoover was unable to collect the millions of copies of U.S. daily newspapers from the first few days after the assassination, the evidence remains that Hoover told Curry that it was Oswald's handwriting on an order for a $12.45 rifle from Kleins. Spin it any way you can, but that is a Big Deal.

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