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Jim Hargrove

John Armstrong blasts the mail order rifle “evidence”

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Wowie Zowie, Batman, this is all just SO FUNNY!!!

In the clip offered above by Mr. Von Pein, Frank Reynolds tells America that our man “Oswald” purchased a $12.78 rifle on March 20!

But the official date of the order in the Warren Commission was March 12! That's the date on the Magic Money Order. The WC tells us Klein's had the order at its Chicago office the very next day, March 13.

The March 20 date is one of the dates the FBI put out while it was still making stuff up but hadn't gotten the story straight about the matching handwriting on the magic order form for the $12.78/$21.45/$21.95 Magic Rifle.

From John's article:

A $21.95 rifle or a $12.78 rifle ?

FBI agents had documentation from Louis Feldsott (Crescent Firearms) that showed C2766 was sold to Kleins on June 18, 1962. But the 3 FBI agents who examined Klein's microfilm for 7 hours found no documentation that related to C2766. They did, however, find documentation that showed Klein's sold a $21.95 rifle that was paid for with a postal money order issued on March 20, 1963. This date was noted on Ruth Paine's personal calendar with a hand-written 5-point "star" that she placed next to the "20th" of March. Mrs. Paine then placed a second hand-written 5-point "star" in the upper left corner of this calendar with the notation, "LHO purchase of rifle." Is it possible that on March 20, 1963 Kleins shipped a $21.95 rifle to L.H. Oswald, A.J. Hidell, or someone (Ruth Paine?) at PO Box 2915 in Dallas? Perhaps, but we may never know. The FBI found this information on the Kleins microfilm, but never released information as to the serial number, the name of the individual who purchased this rifle, nor the address to which it was shipped. We only know that a $21.95 postal money order was issued/purchased on March 20, 1963, and sent to Kleins in payment for a rifle that was similar to the one found on the 6th floor of the TSBD.

Calendar.jpg

The day after the assassination (11/23/63) the FBI advised the Secret Service and FBI informant/Dallas postal inspector Harry Holmes, that a rifle similar to that found on the 6th floor was sold by Kleins for $21.95, and was paid for with a postal money order issued on March 20, 1963 (CD 296). This information could only have come from the Klein's microfilm.

NOTE:
The FBI's failure to announce the correct price of the rifle ($21.45) on 11/23/63, after 3 FBI agents spent 7 hours reviewing Klein's microfilm, is the best indication that Oswald/Hidell's order was not on the microfilm. The only thing the 3 agents found was the sale of a rifle by Kleins that was paid for with a postal money order issued on March 20, 1963 for $21.95. We know that Crescent sold C2766 to Klein's on June 18, 1962, but we will never know if the $21.95 rifle found on the Kleins microfilm was C2766 and we will never know the name of the person who purchased this rifle.

At 10:00 AM, November 23, FBI Director J. Edgar Hoover told President Lyndon Johnson that a money order was used to pay for the rifle. The only information Hoover had at this time came from the Klein's microfilm. Therefore, Hoover was referring to the $21.95 postal money issued on March 20, 1963 in payment for a rifle from Kleins (CD 296). This information ($21.95 postal money order issued on March 20, 1963) was shared with the Secret Service and US postal inspector/FBI informant Harry Holmes on 11/23/63.

NOTE:
The FBI never provided any information as to the serial number of the $21.95 rifle, the model number of this rifle, the name of the purchaser, the location of the post office from which the $21.95 money order was purchased, or the location of where the $21.95 money order was located.

LOL, this is crazy! The FBI was initially going to go with the March 20 $21.95 money order purchase. Then later changed their minds and decided to fabricate their own money order!

DVP, how do you explain the fact that the FBI got the wrong order from the microfilm? I mean, are they so inept that they thought they saw serial number C2766 on that order when in fact it wasn't there? Remember, this was not just one FBI agent... it was three! So all three hallucinated the C2766 serial number???

This is yet another smoking gun, Jim. But can DVP convincingly explain it away?? I'll be sitting on the edge of my seat waiting for a reply!

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Sandy,

The FBI didn't get the "wrong order" from the microfilm. There WAS NO ORDER FOR $21.95 for the C2766 rifle. That was merely a slipped digit. And Harry Holmes talks about that mistake in his testimony too. That was one of the reasons it took a little longer to find the $21.45 Hidell money order --- because they were searching (in vain) for the wrong amount ($21.95). Once they realized what the correct figure was--$21.45--they found it very quickly.

Do you think Waldman No. 7 is a fake document, Sandy? It clearly says $21.45 on it. And it also says C2766. And it says A. Hidell. And Italian Carbine. And William Waldman testified in detail about that order form. Was he a plotter too?

Waldman-Exhibit-7.jpg

jfk-archives.blogspot.com/2014/12/oswald-ordered-rifle.html

Edited by David Von Pein

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So, to sum up what the FBI was telling the world on 11/23/63....

They didn't know how much the rifle cost.

They didn't know when it was ordered.

But they sure as hell knew that the handwriting on the order form was that of "Lee Harvey Oswald," posing as "A. Hidell."

Isn't that AMAZING?

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What a bunch of Von Peinian baloney.

And by God in heaven, to use Holmes as your witness. As a famous lawyer said to Joe McCarthy, "Have you no shame sir?" Well, we know the answer to that dont' we. In both cases.

How anyone can write the above knowing they were looking for the serial number, not the price, is simply beyond the realm of normal thinking. He still has not read John's essay.

But that is why Davey is Davey.

Edited by James DiEugenio

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Jimmy,

When it came time to look for the money order, they were most certainly looking for the AMOUNT, not the serial number. (The serial number wasn't on the M.O.)

And this sentence written by John Armstrong....

"They did, however, find documentation that showed Klein's sold a $21.95 rifle that was paid for with a postal money order issued on March 20, 1963."

....is just a flat-out distortion of the facts, because the FBI most certainly did NOT find any $21.95 Klein's order form for the C2766 rifle. They found the Waldman Exhibit No. 7 document, which is the ONLY document that has BOTH a price and the C2766 serial number on it--and Armstrong knows it. He's merely trying to turn an innocent error regarding the exact amount of the purchase ($21.95 vs. $21.45) into a mountain of conspiracy and cover-up. Silly beyond belief.

Edited by David Von Pein

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Sandy,

The FBI didn't get the "wrong order" from the microfilm. There WAS NO ORDER FOR $21.95 for the C2766 rifle. That was merely a slipped digit. And Harry Holmes talks about that mistake in his testimony too. That was one of the reasons it took a little longer to find the $21.45 Hidell money order --- because they were searching (in vain) for the wrong amount ($21.95). Once they realized what the correct figure was--$21.45--they found it very quickly.

Do you think Waldman No. 7 is a fake document, Sandy? It clearly says $21.45 on it. And it also says C2766. And it says A. Hidell. And Italian Carbine. And William Waldman testified in detail about that order form. Was he a plotter too?

Waldman-Exhibit-7.jpg

jfk-archives.blogspot.com/2014/12/oswald-ordered-rifle.html

David,

I want to finish up the "finding of the order" before we talk about the Order Blank.

What specifically is the "order" anyway? Is it the coupon cut out from the magazine? The money order? Both?

David, can you write a quick summary for me so that I can understand what happened. I'll write one up right now to give you an idea of what I want:

  1. The FBI has the serial number, C2766. (I'm not sure how they got that, but I'll try to understand that later.)
  2. The FBI guys search the Kleins microfilm for seven hours and find what they THINK they are looking for... an order with C2766 printed on it. (Even though it wasn't)
  3. The order is dated March 20 (now we're talking about the money order, right?) for $21.95.
  4. The FBI authenticated Oswald's handwriting.
  5. They discover they had the wrong order. (But then how did they authenticate Oswald's handwriting??)

David, I don't know how to fix the above with your solution to the problem. You say they were searching for an order with the wrong price. But I thought they were searching for an order with a given serial number, C2766, not with a given price.

So can you help me out and write a numbered list like mine above, except the way you think it came about? It shouldn't be very hard. I wrote my list in less than 5 minutes.

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Jimmy,

When it came time to look for the money order, they were most certainly looking for the AMOUNT, not the serial number. (The serial number wasn't on the M.O.)

JD: No kididing Davey. But they had the serial number so they needed to know when that rifle was sold. And they knew that Feldsott said it was wholesaled out many months before it was allegedly sent to Dallas. They could not find any matching info. And the info from Feldsott was a real problem for them since C2766 should not have been around that long. How you can just match a money order without the proper serial number is a non sequitur.

And this sentence written by John Armstrong....

"They did, however, find documentation that showed Klein's sold a $21.95 rifle that was paid for with a postal money order issued on March 20, 1963."

....is just a flat-out distortion of the facts, because the FBI most certainly did NOT find any $21.95 Klein's order form for the C2766 rifle. They found the Waldman Exhibit No. 7 document, which is the ONLY document that has BOTH a price and the C2766 serial number on it--and Armstrong knows it. He's merely trying to turn an innocent error regarding the exact amount of the purchase ($21.95 vs. $21.45) into a mountain of conspiracy and cover-up. Silly beyond belief.

JD: Davey, I mean, really do you have reading comprehension problems? Or are you just trying to be obtuse in order to confuse everyone about how bad your case is? John is not saying what you are accusing him of saying. He is saying that the FBI said they could not find an exact match, but they did think they found something close.

That reveals reams of info to everyone but you.

And you still don't understand that.

Edited by James DiEugenio

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So, to sum up what the FBI was telling the world on 11/23/63....

They didn't know how much the rifle cost.

They didn't know when it was ordered.

But they sure as hell knew that the handwriting on the order form was that of "Lee Harvey Oswald," posing as "A. Hidell."

Isn't that AMAZING?

LOL, sure seems that way!

But seriously, I'm willing to work with David on this. It shouldn't be hard.

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That reveals reams of info to everyone but you.

And you still don't understand that.

The only thing it really reveals is how eager CTers like James DiEugenio are to take that gun out of Lee Oswald's hands. You know, just as I do, that there was no Klein's order found in the amount of $21.95. Somebody relayed the wrong price after the FBI and Klein's discovered Waldman No. 7 in the Klein's files at 4:30 AM on Nov. 23rd. One slipped digit--that's all. Nothing more. And you still don't understand that.

Edited by David Von Pein

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That reveals reams of info to everyone but you.

And you still don't understand that.

The only thing it really reveals is how eager CTers like James DiEugenio are to take that gun out of Lee Oswald's hands. You know, just as I do, that there was no Klein's order found in the amount of $21.95. Somebody relayed the wrong price after the FBI and Klein's discovered Waldman No. 7 in the Klein's files at 4:30 AM on Nov. 23rd. One slipped digit--that's all. Nothing more. And you still don't understand that.

Wait David, I'm pretty sure Jim is right about the serial number being what the FBI started with.

As I recall, since all they knew at first was the type of rifle and the SN, they contacted the big wholesalers to determine which one sold they rifle. They found the correct wholesaler, and they asked them who they sold that particular serial number to. And they were told Kleins.

So the FBI knew to look for the serial number at Kleins.

So can we work on the list now?

Edited by Sandy Larsen

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What specifically is the "order" anyway? Is it the coupon cut out from the magazine? The money order? Both?

The "order letter" that Chief Jesse Curry refers to in his hallway press conference on the night of Nov. 23 is CE773, which is the microfilm of the order form clipped by Oswald out of the Feb. '63 American Rifleman magazine. That's the microfilmed document that was the basis for the FBI's findings that the "order letter" had Oswald's writing on it. That order form, of course, doesn't have the $21.45 figure on it either. Nor does it have $12.78 on it. It has $19.95 on it. (Shall we dance some more over those three figures?)

David, can you write a quick summary for me so that I can understand what happened. I'll write one up right now to give you an idea of what I want:

1. The FBI has the serial number, C2766. (I'm not sure how they got that, but I'll try to understand that later.)

2. The FBI guys search the Kleins microfilm for seven hours and find what they THINK they are looking for... an order with C2766 printed on it. (Even though it wasn't)

3. The order is dated March 20 (now we're talking about the money order, right?) for $21.95.

4. The FBI authenticated Oswald's handwriting.

5. They discover they had the wrong order. (But then how did they authenticate Oswald's handwriting??)

David, I don't know how to fix the above with your solution to the problem. You say they were searching for an order with the wrong price. But I thought they were searching for an order with a given serial number, C2766, not with a given price.

1. The FBI did, indeed, have the serial number. (They had the rifle in their possession at 11:45 PM CST on Friday, you know. So why would you be surprised they knew the serial number? And even if they didn't have the rifle themselves, the FBI could have simply telephoned the DPD and gotten the number from them at any time on Nov. 22....couldn't they?)

2. The FBI discovers from a gun dealer in Dallas that Italian surplus WW2 rifles were being distributed by Crescent Firearms in New York City. This leads the FBI to Klein's in Chicago after finding out that Crescent had sold the "C2766" rifle to Klein's.

3. The Klein's records are searched and the "C2766" invoice is found (via what would soon become "Waldman Deposition Exhibit No. 7"), which provides all the pertinent information about the sale of Italian rifle No. C2766 for $21.45 to one A. Hidell of Dallas, Texas (via "M.O." [Money Order]) on March 20, 1963 (which is the date the FBI goes with, instead of the date stamped at the very top of Waldman No. 7--March 13, 1963--which was the date Klein's put the Hidell order through their cash register, as William Waldman explained in his Warren Commission testimony; the March 20 date was, of course, the date the rifle was shipped to Hidell/Oswald).

4. Somebody connected with the discovery of the "Waldman No. 7" invoice must have transmitted the wrong purchase price to other FBI personnel ($21.95 instead of $21.45), which led to confusion when the FBI and Secret Service began searching for the money order that was used to pay for the rifle.

5. In addition to the internal Klein's invoice (Waldman No. 7), the FBI also found the "order letter" (as Curry called it), which is CE773. They quickly determined that the writing on the order form was that of Lee Harvey Oswald.

In short, there was no "wrong order". Somebody just wrote down or transmitted to somebody the wrong purchase price after the discovery of Waldman No. 7. But even though some officials had the wrong price, there were others who knew the correct price of $21.45 for the Hidell rifle order, because we find the correct figure being written in two separate reports (connected with the discovery of the money order) authored by both the FBI and the Secret Service on November 23 -- CD75 and CD87.

Also see:

jfk-archives.blogspot.com/2012/08/the-postmark-on-commission-exhibit-773.html

Edited by David Von Pein

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DVP: Do these things sway any CTer? Nah. Not a chance. The M.O. is just as "suspicious" now to Jimbo & Company as it ever was. Same with the "Zone 12" on the envelope. Jimbo will just ignore the facts regarding that "12" too.

I transferred this to this thread since it does not belong on the Paine thread.

Do you know what Davey did on this?

He tried to get someone to say the number 12 on the envelope was a cancellation number by a machine. But this got really muddy, and the guy he went to was not sure.

​So what did he do next? He found a guy on Facebook who was just as bad as he was as far as the JFK case went. In other words he was a WC zealot all the way. He even slurred the critics personally. His name was Jimmy Orr. Jimmy said what Davey wanted to hear. But there was a big problem. Jimmy was not in the USPS anywhere near the time we are talking about. He was about 20 years off.

But that did not stop Davey at all. He used him.

​See, on the show BOR did with Armstrong, I mentioned the following: about two years ago, John Armstrong found a postal worker who is about 85 years old. And he had retired for many years and had moved to Hawaii. John showed him a facsimile of the envelope and asked him what the 12 meant. He said it was for a postal zone.

​BTW, Mr. Orr--Davey's Facebook pal-- also said that it would be no problem picking up the envelope on March 12th and having it at Klein's delivered and deposited in about 24 hours. I imagine if Davey had asked him about the Single Bullet Fantasy, hey, he would have said, "I did it many times." And Davey would have blasted that one out also.

​Davey did not ask about all the many steps in between--from pick up in Dallas to street delivery in Chicago--and how long each would take, or if the flight from Dallas to Chicago was non stop. None of that. Or why it takes sometimes two days to get a letter processed and delivered in LA today.

And BTW, Mr Orr never worked in Dallas. So how could he have known about the route?

In other words, ​Davey found a former USPS worker who was as rabid as he was in nailing the critics. And this is the kind of testimony he uses.

Which by the way, is how this all started. Jean Davison said that someone at ROKC had said "hey the Money Order is genuine", and so Davey now used that to go all over the web and say "Postal Money order scandal debunked!"

You can see still these by the way. But that is Davey, a propagandist in his heart..

Edited by James DiEugenio

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It's rather hilarious to think that Jimmy D. thinks the plotters were SO STUPID that they decided to put a FAKE "March 12" date on the FAKE money order and then put a FAKE "March 13" date on the FAKE Waldman No. 7 invoice.

IOW---apparently the braindead plotters framing Oswald WANTED people to think the letter could get from Dallas to Chicago in one day's time --- even though crackerjack experts like Jimbo DiEugenio assure the world that such a journey was impossible.

Jim, please have those patsy framers fired---asap! They're all idiots.

And yet--incredibly--Jimbo buys into this "Everything's Fake" crap. Hysterical.

jfk-archives.blogspot.com/2012/08/the-postmark-on-commission-exhibit-773.html

Edited by David Von Pein

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This is Davey.

Never asks any questions about all the steps to go ahead and mail the money order, or to process the money order or deposit the money order.

And BTW, that is really the giveaway in all this. Because the WC, if you can buy it--and you can--never asked any of those questions either!

I asked John about this once: Is there any interview with the accounts receivable department chief? That is, the person who took on all the mailed in checks and money orders and cash and sorted it and processed it and then sent it over to the bank?

He said no there is not. At least I cannot find it.

I said then, how did they know how often the messenger was sent over to make a deposit? I mean was it every day? Every other day? Was it when they hit a certain amount? And who was their contact there? Since they had seven stores, they must have been VIP clients. Therefore, there must have been a protocol. John said, I have never seen any of that.

I said, John, you know what makes that so odd? Belin and Liebeler were not criminal lawyers. They were business lawyers. They had to have known all this and yet they never did any research to find out the answers to these questions. John said, yep I know Jim its really unbelievable. But its the WC.

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Belin and Liebeler were not criminal lawyers. They were business lawyers. They had to have known all this and yet they never did any research to find out the answers to these questions. John said, yep I know Jim its [sic] really unbelievable. But its [sic] the WC.

No, it's just that David W. Belin and Wesley J. Liebeler had the common sense (and rational way of thinking about the evidence) that people like James DiEugenio and John Armstrong sorely lack.

I.E.,

Belin and Liebeler knew that there wasn't even the SLIGHTEST chance that the paper trail for Oswald's rifle purchase had been faked or artificially manufactured by a band of brain-dead conspirators.

How did they know this for certain?

Because of the many things that prove the paper trail was legitimate and genuine. Such as: Oswald's verified writing on various pieces of that paper trail (including the money order and the CE773 order form). Plus, the Klein's "Pay To The Order" stamp on the back of the money order. Plus Waldman Exhibit No. 7. Plus the fact that Belin and Liebeler knew for a fact that the money order had been located in just exactly the place where it should have been found if it had been processed properly--in Alexandria.

Therefore, why would David Belin and Wesley Liebeler (or the WC) have felt there was any NEED to jump through the ridiculous hoops that DiEugenio is suggesting those men *should* have definitely jumped through?

Answer -- There was no need for such hoop-jumping, because of all the things that just SCREAMED out Lee Harvey Oswald purchased this rifle from Klein's!

Edited by David Von Pein

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