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Jim Hargrove

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David, thank you for clearing up the storefront appearance, I was trying to picture in my head how it looked according to Brewer's testimony. Now that that's cleared up. I don't believe there was a mistake by the bank regarding "bulk entries" as you have explained in your theory, and here's why, say the bank did have the postal money order but forgot to endorse it, the regulations are that the bank is required to forward the postal money order to the postmaster, which did not happened, so, in a sense that wasn't just one screw up, but two. The postmaster never received the PMO.

Secondly, whether Brewer followed Oswald to the theater , and or gave a description to the DPD of a nervous over exasperated suspicious man doesn't make him an assassin, what it does make him is someone who may think he's being set-up, why is that so hard to believe?

Thirdly, Marion Baker who discovers Oswald on the second floor of the TSBD doesn't notice anything odd about his accused actions, I would believe that just after killing the president when your adrenaline is at its peek would have certainly showed some signs then not two hours later. Of coarse your adrenaline is still running high, but this is two hours later, he's sweaty, nervous, scared that he's now set up, why is it so hard to believe that?

Lastly, I believe both sides have some strong arguing points, but I don't believe the lone assassin theory has a strong case, how can a high profile murder case have more screw ups then any case I know, why if the FBI had the lead on this case that it seemed as though the Dulles Commission and company took over? You have still yet to convince me that Oswald is the lone assassin other then producing a lot of hearsay and theories, kinda like that guy who's the author of Case Close, I can barely say his name, every time I hear him on TV the first thing he does is attack conspiracy theorist, well, I've read some wacky theories before, but what this guy doesn't do is attack someone who has some sensible knowledge, why? Because whatever this guy says is nothing more then hearsay and theories of his own, so he has to defend his book, which if you ask me, I think he's a total nut! Case closed.

Edited by Scott Kaiser

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"Even the age of the assassin Brennan saw fits perfectly with Marrion Baker's incorrect estimate of Lee Oswald's age -- about 30 -- which we know is wrong, but we also know that the man Baker described as being "approximately 30 years old" WAS Lee Harvey Oswald and not somebody who could have merely been confused with Oswald.

And then there are the "weight" estimates provided by Brennan and Baker in their individual affidavits, which also (just like the "age" estimate) blend together perfectly:

Baker said -- "165 pounds".

Brennan said -- "165 to 175 pounds".

And, just like Baker's estimate for Oswald's age, the weight estimate he provided in his affidavit is wrong, but we still know that Baker was estimating the weight of the real Lee Harvey Oswald when he wrote down "165 pounds" in his 11/22/63 affidavit.

Ergo, we know that it is, indeed, possible for a person to look right at Lee Harvey Oswald on November 22, 1963, and think he weighed as much as 165 pounds. Shouldn't this fact mean just a little something to CTers when they attempt to assess whether or not Howard Brennan could have possibly seen Oswald in the Sniper's Nest on that same day?

Do CTers think that Baker and Brennan got together and swapped information so that their affidavits would merge perfectly with respect to both the "age" and "weight" estimates?" -- DVP; August 2015

More....

http://jfk-archives.blogspot.com/2015/08/jfk-assassination-arguments-part-1000.htm

Baker's affidavit 11.22 63

“........The elevator was hung several floors up so we used the stairs instead. As we reacjhed the third or fourth floor I saw a man walking away from the stairway. I called the man and he turned roundand came back towards me. “I know that man.he works here” I then turned the man loose and went up to the top floor. The man I saw was a white man approximately 30years old , 5'9”, 165pounds. Dark hair and wearing a light brown jacket.”

"Third or fourth floor" No- according to his later story, it was the second floor.

"I saw a man walking away from the stairway"- No according to his later story he saw the man through a window in a door.

He was approximately 30 years old." No - Oslwad was mid twenties.

"165lbs" No- Oswald was 133lbs

"wearing a light brown jacket" No- Oswald was not wearing a light brown jacket.

Now assuming that Baker was a fully trained policeman, trained in assessing people and situations, how could he make so many mistakes in his affidavit compared to his evidence to the Warren Commission. Eiither he was totally incompetent for the first, or he was lying in the second.

I know which I believe.

p.s. How could Brennan judge the weight of guy six floor above him without seeing him fully?

We still await the source of the 5'10" description of the shooter issued by the DPD.

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Ray,

You actually have some doubts about whether Baker saw the real Lee Oswald in the lunchroom? Even with Roy Truly's verification?

Okaaaaaaaaaay.

:rolleyes:

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Ray,

You actually have some doubts about whether Baker saw the real Lee Oswald in the lunchroom? Even with Roy Truly's verification?

Okaaaaaaaaaay.

:rolleyes:

David, you actually believe what Baker said to the Warren Commission?

Rightttttt.......

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Yes, I believe both of them, Baker and Truly, were lying through their teeth.

In his first statement, Baker mentioned nothing at all about seeing Oswald through the window of the door.

Early statements are much more reliable then later statements when the "official" story has been agreed.

p.s. If , by any chance, you should quote me on your site, please do not write, that I wrote " Yes, I believe both of them" without the subsequent words.

Edited by Ray Mitcham

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Ray,

You actually have some doubts about whether Baker saw the real Lee Oswald in the lunchroom? Even with Roy Truly's verification?

Okaaaaaaaaaay.

:rolleyes:

Exactly my point, now can you please address the rest of what I've said?

David, thank you for clearing up the storefront appearance, I was trying to picture in my head how it looked according to Brewer's testimony. Now that that's cleared up. I don't believe there was a mistake by the bank regarding "bulk entries" as you have explained in your theory, and here's why, say the bank did have the postal money order but forgot to endorse it, the regulations are that the bank is required to forward the postal money order to the postmaster, which did not happened, so, in a sense that wasn't just one screw up, but two. The postmaster never received the PMO.

Secondly, whether Brewer followed Oswald to the theater , and or gave a description to the DPD of a nervous over exasperated suspicious man doesn't make him an assassin, what it does make him is someone who may think he's being set-up, why is that so hard to believe?

Thirdly, Marion Baker who discovers Oswald on the second floor of the TSBD doesn't notice anything odd about his accused actions, I would believe that just after killing the president when your adrenaline is at its peek would have certainly showed some signs then not two hours later. Of coarse your adrenaline is still running high, but this is two hours later, he's sweaty, nervous, scared that he's now set up, why is it so hard to believe that?

Lastly, I believe both sides have some strong arguing points, but I don't believe the lone assassin theory has a strong case, how can a high profile murder case have more screw ups then any case I know, why if the FBI had the lead on this case that it seemed as though the Dulles Commission and company took over? You have still yet to convince me that Oswald is the lone assassin other then producing a lot of hearsay and theories, kinda like that guy who's the author of Case Close, I can barely say his name, every time I hear him on TV the first thing he does is attack conspiracy theorist, well, I've read some wacky theories before, but what this guy doesn't do is attack someone who has some sensible knowledge, why? Because whatever this guy says is nothing more then hearsay and theories of his own, so he has to defend his book, which if you ask me, I think he's a total nut! Case closed.

Edited by Scott Kaiser

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David, you actually believe what Baker said to the Warren Commission?

Of course. Why wouldn't I?

Do you think Baker is lying through his teeth in this 1964 CBS interview too, Ray? ....

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-ZRdbkNPuck

Reporter says, Oswald fired his rifle from the sixth floor of the TSBD building Yet a few minutes later possibly less then two minutes later, he was stopped by an armed policeman and identified by his own boss on the second floor on the other side of the building. I had always believed that Baker reached the second floor within 60 seconds, now which is it? Crikey!

Mr. Truly says, I ran in with him and just a matter of seconds: after the third shot, now you have to ask yourself, did Oswald really have enough time to travel from the sixth floor to the second when Truly and Barker ran from the first to the second? Wouldn't it seem to you that Oswald would have been showing some sign as being exhausted from running and not startled?

Barker says, we couldn't get the service elevator working so we turned around and immediately went up the stairs.

But Oswald looked startled not that Oswald looked suspicious, nervous, excited, adrenaline pumping but startled.

Shots are fired, Oswald is startled at the fact a policeman has just encountered him on the second floor, Oswald knows he has had connections to anti-Castro Cubans, and gone to jail in New Orleans, he knows he's been communicating with the FBI and CIA.

He realizes Kennedy has just been shot and now knows he's going to be set up, the rifle found at the sixth floor seems to have discrepancies about it, like the rest of the case. Oswald is asked, did you shoot the president, here is a man who had returned from Russia, expecting all kinds of TV stations to appear at the airport, but no one shows up, a man who supposedly went to Mexico seeking a Visa to head back to Russia after the assassination, with his wife, but there's no proof.

A man who is desperately seeking attention, but says, I'm just a pasty.

Why is so hard to believe Oswald was setup for an assassination he had nothing to do with?

Edited by Scott Kaiser

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Ray,

You actually have some doubts about whether Baker saw the real Lee Oswald in the lunchroom? Even with Roy Truly's verification?

Okaaaaaaaaaay.

:rolleyes:

Why didn't Spence confront Baker with his first day affidavit?

Weisberg alludes to it in Whitewash 2.

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Reporter can you tell me the time it took you to get up the stairs from the time you entered the building?

Barker - Cough, cough, I believe it took a minute and a half to two minutes, that's an offal long time if you immediately ran up the stairs realizing the service elevator wasn't working but the Warren Commission did want you to reenact the whole two minutes right? I believe it took them no longer then 45 seconds to within a minute from the time Barker entered the TSBD to the time they realized the service elevators wasn't working after hearing the third shot go off is when they decided to immediately make a dash for the stairs which is next to the elevators, but why? Taking the elevator would have taken longer to get up in the building then taking the stairs, and any good cop is going to want to immediately get to the scene, so I ask again, how could Oswald hide the gun, run pass two women in the staircase, fly down four flights of stairs and beat Barker and Truly to the second floor?

No f****** way!

Edited by Scott Kaiser

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David, peek-a-boo, where are you?

You have corrected me on the storefront window, and I thank you for that, I just couldn't get the imagine in my head through the interview, you then published the photos, and I was wrong, but, now that we've moved on from that, can we please address my other questions above, thank you David.

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...the regulations are that the bank is required to forward the postal money order to the postmaster, which did not happen, so, in a sense that wasn't just one screw up, but two. The postmaster never received the PMO.

The money order ended up in the exact place it should have been -- at the Federal Records Center near Washington. The BOFD (Bank of First Deposit)--First National--sent it to the Federal Reserve Bank in Chicago. And then the FRB sent it to the Records Center in Washington for storage, whereupon (after 2 years) it is discarded. See CD75 below, where Lester Gohr of the FRB confirms where 75% of the PMOs were being sent after being handled by the FRB in Chicago as of March of 1963. Do you think this fellow named Gohr was lying too, Scott?....

http://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=10477#relPageId=673

Mar[r]ion Baker...doesn't notice anything odd about his accused actions. I would believe that just after killing the president when your adrenaline is at its peek would have certainly showed some signs then, not two hours later.

I've talked about Oswald's "cool and calm" demeanor many times in the past. Here's one such conversation I had with Bill Kelly at this forum in September 2013....

WILLIAM KELLY SAID:

How come Oswald, if he had just shot the president, deposited the rifle behind boxes and ran down four flights of steps to get to the Second Floor Lunchroom before Baker – 90 seconds after the last shot – how come he wasn’t out of breath from running and hyper from having just blown JFK’s brains out, but instead his demeanor was cool, calm and collected, just as he was 30 seconds later when he encountered Mrs. Reid. After the Walker shooting, Oswald was still hyper and excited hours later. Was Oswald the “cool” assassin, or wasn’t he the killer at all?

DAVID VON PEIN SAID:

But you don't really think Oswald shot at Walker either, do you Bill?

Anyway, here again we are faced with an unanswerable type of question. Who can know these things for sure? Nobody can. But this type of question does not magically ERASE all of that evidence with Oswald's name on it that's on the sixth floor. That evidence is still going to exist no matter what Oswald's demeanor was like when he encountered Marrion Baker.

And his cool demeanor is just as indicative of guilt, IMO. Because any truly INNOCENT person would probably NOT be cool and calm and TOTALLY SILENT when confronted at gunpoint by a police officer. An innocent person would probably have been rattled, startled, scared, and would have said SOMETHING to Baker, like: "What did I do? Why are you pointing a gun at ME?"

But Oswald says nothing. You know why? Because he didn't NEED to say those things--because he, and he alone, was the only person on the planet at 12:31 PM who knew exactly what had just happened out on Elm Street in front of the Book Depository. Ergo, he expected the cops to be crawling all over the building in very short order. Which is one of the main reasons he scurried down four flights of stairs in a very short amount of time right after the shooting.

Surely, even conspiracy theorists wouldn't expect ANY assassin to just loiter on the sixth floor playing dominoes for a half-hour after having just killed the President. Would they, William?

Source Link:

jfk-archives.blogspot.com/2013/09/questions-and-answers.html

Edited by David Von Pein

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The money order ended up in the exact place it should have been -- at the Federal Records Center near Washington. The BOFD (Bank of First Deposit)--First National--sent it to the Federal Reserve Bank in Chicago. And then the FRB sent it to the Records Center in Washington for storage, whereupon (after 2 years) it is discarded. See CD75 below, where Lester Gohr of the FRB confirms where 75% of the PMOs were being sent after being handled by the FRB in Chicago as of March of 1963. Do you think this fellow named Gohr was lying too, Scott?....

Now, see, this is exactly what I don't understand, because, what I've learned that banks regulations for postal money orders when shipping is as follows, please correct me if I'm wrong David.

Shipping Money Orders. Instructions for shipping money orders to MOD are as follows.

  • Place batches of money orders, including the USPS Batch Locator Control Documents in shipping boxes. Maintain the money orders and batches in the same sequence as they were read and listed on the paper tape list.
  • Mail the original PS Form 1901 to:

Postal Data Center

Processing Control Division

Attn: Accounting Section

P.O. Box 14431

St. Louis, MO 63180

  • Attach the last three copies of PS Form 1901, to the PS Form 1175 or machine equivalent and place all documents in the last box of money orders for that day.
  • Place the paper tape list and the mutilated tapes in the same box.
  • Batches of mutilated money orders may be included in the same box or in the same shipment as fit money orders, provided the batches of mutilated money orders are clearly identified as mutilated.
  • Place a completed box label on the front of each box. The boxes should bear sequential numbers on the labels (e.g., "Box 2 of 4") to facilitate USPS processing.
  • When justified by the number of boxes shipped, the boxes may be in the larger No. 5 box shipping carton.
  • Place the boxes and cartons in mail pouches for delivery to the USPS representatives. Due to the limited space available on the pouch label, the mailing address on the label should read as follows:

St. Louis Missouri 63182

MOD P.O. Box 14963

From: F.R.B. (City)

Shipment will be made to the MOD by registered mail using pouches with rotary locks provided by the USPS.

7050 -Processing Mutilated Money Orders

This section relates to the handling of mutilated paper money orders with ABA routing numbers 0000-0020 or 000000204.

7050.10 -Mutilated paper money orders must be grouped in batches not to exceed 200 documents in a batch. If the total number of mutilated items does not exceed 200, they may be handled as one batch. For larger quantities, make as many batches as necessary, not exceeding 200 in any one batch.

7050.20 -Insert a USPS Batch Locator Control Document at the beginning of each batch of mutilated money orders.

7050.30 -Prepare an adding machine listing of each batch showing the following information:

  • FRB name or code at the top.
  • The amount of each item.
  • The total amount of the batch.
  • FRB clearance date.
  • Batch number.

7050.40 -Batches of the paper money orders that cannot be machine processed without first being MICR amount encoded may be delivered to the USPS representative without processing, provided the above requirements are essentially met.

7050.50 - The total amount of mutilated items should be entered on the PS Form 1901, code 110.

Section 7060 - Detection Of Stolen Or Raised Money Orders

FRBs are not required to institute regular routing procedures for the detection of stolen or raised money orders. However, each FRB will cooperate, in special circumstances, to aid USPS representatives in the detection of these items.

Wouldn't you say that all PMOs are suppose to be returned to the Postmaster, and not the Federal Reserve, after all, a POM is a completely difference note isn't it?

Edited by Scott Kaiser

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