David Josephs Posted June 27, 2016 Share Posted June 27, 2016 According to this report - M/M Zapruder, the FBI was at their place friday night and were given - at the very least - a copy. Now, don't you suppose the FBI would get the Original from Zap? plus, as Philip's note says, Zap did not have his "best copy" but only the original, 2 to Sorrels and the third print forwarded. The 8mm film which Dino possibly sees Sat night AFTER it's been worked on Homer McMahan works on a 16mm film btw.... With regards to MW's desire to convince anyone this film is "original" one wonders if and when he will ever get to actual evidence of this rather than anecdotal discussion of his opinions... It's sad when people like Mike can't take the word of those who have dedicated their lives to specific topics and professions over his own "feelings" on the subject. Without an ounce of supporting evidence for his theory, Mike keeps farting into the wind hoping no one will notice the lack of substance and that foul odor. So maybe take a minute and address how the FBI has a film prior to Zap's "negotiations" with LIFE - as if the FBI would simply allow this private citizen do whatever he liked with this key evidence. Did Nix, Moorman, Muchmore, or any of the others get such kid glove treatment? of course not. Every other item of evidence in this case is pure crap, but the film which supports the crap info must be authentic? Where does someone learn logic like that? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris Davidson Posted June 27, 2016 Author Share Posted June 27, 2016 "Beyond the Magic Bullet" The program shows a shirt bunch (collar on down) difference of 4 inches. They did not take into account the Elm St slope of 3.13 degrees. Turn the X-ray 3.13 degrees, and connect collar to throat front, the red line drawn is 19.1degrees. This puts the angle between CE 884's z235-z240. If there was a magic bullet between z235-z240, what is JFK reacting to at approx z224 according to the extant zfilm? A reaction to a shot at approx z224 does not leave enough time for a one shooter magic bullet at z235-z240 also. 19.1 degrees does not work with Dr.Shaw's caliper measurement of 25 degrees for Connally's wound trajectory either. However, Dr Shaw's WC testimony after viewing the zfilm provides support for the "SBT" in terms of film location at approx z235-237. I wonder why they didn't tell us from what location the bullet came. Mr. SPECTER - Dr. Shaw, have you had an opportunity today here in the Cornmission building to view the movies which we referred to as the Zapruder movies and the slides taken from these movies? Dr. SHAW - Yes. Mr. SPECTER - And what, if any, light did those movies shed on your evaluation and opinions on this matter with respect to the wounds of the Governor? Dr. SHAW - Well, my main interest was to try to place the time that the Governor was struck by the bullet which inflicted the wound on his chest in reference to the sequence of the three shots, as has been described to us. (At this point the Chief Justice entered the hearing room.) This meant trying to carefully examine the position of the Governor's body in the car so that it would fall in line with what we knew the trajectory must be for this bullet coming from the point where it has been indicated it did come from. And in trying to place this actual frame that these frames are numbered when the Governor was hit, my opinion was that it was frame number, let's see, I think it was No. 36. Mr. SPECTER - 236? Dr. SHAW - 236, give or take 1 or 2 frames. It was right in 35, 36, 37, perhaps. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David G. Healy Posted June 27, 2016 Share Posted June 27, 2016 (edited) Yes, David Healey, I meant Bob Fosse. But more disturbingly if you had read my post up further, you wouldn't have had to ask for my confirmation. Back into the 1940s? It's obvious that you have no historical perspective of film technique. I'll let you guys think what you want and it's equally obvious that none of you have any understanding of the nitty gritty of film making. I really wish when the Craigster Lampoon Lamson sends lone nuts to do his bidding, he surely should give them some sort of education regarding the topic.... and it's HEALY not HEALEY, ya blind son? start your education by acquiring and reading this: The Technique of Special Effects Cinematography -- Raymond Fielding and, if you can find the 1965 first edition there's enough to keep you busy in the glossary alone citing and quoting SMPE (Society of Motion Picture Engineers - those that set film standards worldwide) you really need to get up to speed if you want any credibility around here regarding this issue. And you'll be happy to know Rollie Zavada made a special trip to interview Ray Fielding after the 2003 Univ. of Minn. symposium regarding the Zapruder Film. Now, as to *thee* Bob Fosse, I suspect there was a whole lot of choreography done when it comes to the Zapruder film and alteration of same. I'll take the Hollywood practitioners of special effects cinematography over Fosse 's drivel any day. Have a nice day! Edited June 27, 2016 by David G. Healy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David G. Healy Posted June 27, 2016 Share Posted June 27, 2016 Hello Anonymous User! LMAO! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Josephs Posted June 27, 2016 Share Posted June 27, 2016 Here's a good one to try out... If the limo and Queen Mary are moving at 11.2 mph... how fast does Hill need to run to cover how much ground between where he starts and when he first touches the limo... In the NIX sequence we see one LARGE step with the left leg, no interim step, and he's at the limo... hmmmm. Doesn't that suggest the limo was moving much slower at the time? Now where was that Nix original... Gayle? Do we get any measurements after Z313 other than the final shot being done when the limo's rear bumper is above station 4+96? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Walton Posted June 28, 2016 Share Posted June 28, 2016 David Josephs I think your eyes are just playing tricks on you. Or you're seeing what you want to see rather than what's actually there. There is a difference between the two. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Josephs Posted June 28, 2016 Share Posted June 28, 2016 David Josephs I think your eyes are just playing tricks on you. Or you're seeing what you want to see rather than what's actually there. There is a difference between the two. Sir, you haven't offered one solid observation or the building blocks to a single conclusion/opinion offered which you can defend.... While we appreciate what you "think" we are more concerned with what you can defend with authenticated evidence. How fast does a man need to run to accomplish what Hill did? simple question given the speeds offered. Care to try? Use the information provided by the WCR and see what is being done here rather than continually interject an uninformed and basically unsupported opinion about a topic you've obviously not taken much time to understand. West creates a 3-shot survey diagram in Dec 1963 only to have the FBI have him recreate the identical survey yet removing this "last shot" down at 4+96 (a shot I understand as being created out of thin air to explain the 3-shot = 3-hit scenario) in May/June of '64. Now why on earth would the FBI order WEST to redo the survey Mike in order to remove a shot which they claim existed since their summary report on Dec 9th.? The FBI tried so hard to show 3 shots & 3 hits. The Secret Service tried as well... Which created the evidence we now have which in turn shows what a farce this was. https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=10402#relPageId=8&tab=page A. Assassin in Building As the motorcade was traveling through downtown Dallas on Elm Street about fifty yards west of the intersection with Houston Street, three shots rang out. Two bullets struck President Kennedy, and one wounded Governor Connally. The President, who slumped forward in the car, was rushed to Parkland Memorial Hospital, where he was pronounced dead at 1:00 p.m. The first shot is identified as 171 feet from the corner. Not a bad estimate. But then they revert back to lying: Tests of Rifle By actual tests It has been demonstrated by the FBI that a skilled person can fire three accurately aimed shots with this weapon in five seconds. (DJ: this is complete BS as proven by the evidence of the "actual" test)) Leo Gauthier takes a model which is said to allow for a precise understanding of the assassination without having to go to Dallas, and subverts it into a bad CE with a legend that is never seen yet entered into evidence as authentic. How LIFE and the NPIC places shots at a variety of Zframe locations starting with 190 yet nothing between 216 and 242.. and nothing past 313..... And yet we both can see what occurs at 224 on the existing film. It's always amusing when someone who refuses to put forth even the smallest effort to understand what is being said, can expect anyone to give weight or credibility to their opinion. Wishing you're right and hoping no one notices or call you to task is a helluva way to post on an "Education" forum. You are aware that original Nix film was never returned? You are aware that Muchmore told the FBI that she did not, did NOT get any film of the shooting (the WC never did call her to testify, wonder why?) - if you were to look at the first half of Muchmore you'd see a real amateur film, she's somehow able to not only get the film but an amazingly clear closeup of the shots hitting JFK Try taking a few steps back and looking at the entire picture as opposed to your "this puzzle piece doesn't fit with that puzzle piece" mentality. Or you're seeing what you want to see rather than what's actually there. This is called "projection" Mike. You want so bad to be right about something, anything, you're willing to keep showing us in post after post how wrong an unsupported opinion can truly be. Or maybe you're just hoping to stumble upon something that you can use to prove we're wrong? 161-166 is a great example. Covering 9/10ths of a foot in 5 frames at 18.3fps derives a speed of around 3 mph... that's walking speed - and it's obvious the limo is not moving at walking speed in the film... So the legend and information was changed and hidden. The math and film contradicts itself and proves what Redlich was trying to say. Maybe you've never seen this... do these speeds look correct to you - the math doesn't lie... only the FBI and SS do in this case. Taken individually the evidence attempts to support itself - a self-corroborating circle of evidence. But once you hold this evidence up to the real world with real physics and real motion, it falls apart - and that appears to be the one thing just out of your grasp. It was very apparent to the lawyers of the WCR. April 27, 1964 Redlich to Rankin: "Our intention is not to establish the point with complete accuracy, but merely to substantiate the hypothesis which underlies the conclusions that Oswald was the sole assassin." "I should add that the facts which we now have in our possession, submitted to us in separate reports from the FBI and Secret Service, are totally incorrect and, if left uncorrected, will present a completely misleading picture." Both of these "reports" (WCDs 1&3 https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=10404#relPageId=35&tab=page ) promote the 3 shot scenario with a shot beyond 313 which disappears And Once again we learn that a motorcycle (Chaney) pulled up to the Lead car immediately after the final shots - yet there is not a single image showing this occurring - Can you take a minute and see if you can work this thru? We have more than enough evidence to prove this one way or the other. Can you find any image where Chaney is doing what virtually everyone says he did? Mr. HARGIS - I don't know whether it was the Secret Service car, and I remembered seeing Officer Chaney. Chaney put his motor in first gear and accelerated up to the front to tell them to get everything out of the way, that he was coming through, and that is when the Presidential limousine shot off, and I stopped and got off my motorcycle and ran to the right-hand side of the street, behind the light pole. Mr. CURRY - I said what was that, was that a firecracker, or someone said this, I don't recall whether it was me or someone else, and from the report I couldn't tell whether it was coming from the railroad yard or whether it was coming from behind but I said over the radio, I said, "Get someone up in the railroad yard and check." And then about this time, I believe it was motorcycle Officer Chaney rode up beside of me and looking back in the rear view mirror I could see some commotion in the President's car and after this there had been two more reports, but these other two reports I could tell were coming behind instead of from the railroad yards. Curry says this at 12:31 on the dicta-belt transcripts - almost immediately as he says... with Chaney coming up to him very quickly. Mike - why is this missing from all the visual evidence? any ideas based on the evidence? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom Neal Posted June 28, 2016 Share Posted June 28, 2016 Because the film does show evidence of a frontal shot hitting President Kennedy in the head and, thus, a conspiracy, the film was kept from public view by the government for 12 long years; Michael, I'm trying to follow your responses in this thread. In order to clarify your position, could you please state your opinion as to the following: What were the total number of shots fired in Dealy Plaza? From what location was each shot fired? In what sequence were these shots fired? Do you believe LHO fired any shots, and if so, how many? Tom Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris Davidson Posted June 28, 2016 Author Share Posted June 28, 2016 "Beyond the Magic Bullet" The program shows a shirt bunch (collar on down) difference of 4 inches. They did not take into account the Elm St slope of 3.13 degrees. Turn the X-ray 3.13 degrees, and connect collar to throat front, the red line drawn is 19.1degrees. This puts the angle between CE 884's z235-z240. If there was a magic bullet between z235-z240, what is JFK reacting to at approx z224 according to the extant zfilm? A reaction to a shot at approx z224 does not leave enough time for a one shooter magic bullet at z235-z240 also. 19.1 degrees does not work with Dr.Shaw's caliper measurement of 25 degrees for Connally's wound trajectory either. However, Dr Shaw's WC testimony after viewing the zfilm provides support for the "SBT" in terms of film location at approx z235-237. I wonder why they didn't tell us from what location the bullet came. Mr. SPECTER - Dr. Shaw, have you had an opportunity today here in the Cornmission building to view the movies which we referred to as the Zapruder movies and the slides taken from these movies? Dr. SHAW - Yes. Mr. SPECTER - And what, if any, light did those movies shed on your evaluation and opinions on this matter with respect to the wounds of the Governor? Dr. SHAW - Well, my main interest was to try to place the time that the Governor was struck by the bullet which inflicted the wound on his chest in reference to the sequence of the three shots, as has been described to us. (At this point the Chief Justice entered the hearing room.) This meant trying to carefully examine the position of the Governor's body in the car so that it would fall in line with what we knew the trajectory must be for this bullet coming from the point where it has been indicated it did come from. And in trying to place this actual frame that these frames are numbered when the Governor was hit, my opinion was that it was frame number, let's see, I think it was No. 36. Mr. SPECTER - 236? Dr. SHAW - 236, give or take 1 or 2 frames. It was right in 35, 36, 37, perhaps. Measured at approx z208, on film at approx z224 and reproduced at approx z238. A magical bullet indeed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris Davidson Posted June 28, 2016 Author Share Posted June 28, 2016 SurveyInfo for Z207 will help: Difference between 21deg11min and 21deg50min = 2.14ft = 39min Height used for JFK's head above the street in CE884 all frames = 3.27ft 3.27ft/2.14ft = 1.528… x 39min = 59.593...min = 1degree 3.27ft vertical = 1degree David, If you take that 10" elevation difference and incorporate it back into this scenario, it will look like this: 3.27ft vertical = 60 min(59.593 min to be exact) 3.27/60 = .0545 vert ft. per min 1ft vertical/18.3ft horizontal (ElmSt slope) = .0546vertical /1ft horizontal 1min = 1 horizontal ft. 3.27ft = 39.24" 10" / 39.24" = .254.../1 ratio .254 x 60min = 15.29min = 15.29ft You asked me earlier about the 10" vertical drop conversion in Shaneyfelt testimony pertaining to z161-166 and Elm St. 10"/12" = .833…x 18.3ft (Elm St slope ratio 1vert per 18.3 horizontal) = 15.25ft. Close enough for goober-mint work. In case you didn't connect this either: The ratio of 10 vertical inches to a 39.24inch (3.27ft) apex at CE884 z207 = 15.29minutes. The difference in rifle angle from z207- z208 = 16 minutes Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Josephs Posted June 28, 2016 Share Posted June 28, 2016 The program shows a shirt bunch (collar on down) difference of 4 inches. So I'm wondering then Chris... How does the coat have a hole 5 3/8" down from the collar and the shirt 5 3/4" from the collar yet the coat did not bunch up 4 inches... BTW - these measurements are from the TOP of the collar, not the bottom as shown in the image. Furthermore, to believe an expensive shirt would ride up 4" simple means those claiming this do not know anything about fine shirts or tailoring. And finally... if the shirt and jacket actually folded over on themselves - wouldn't we see multiple holes where the fabric overlaps? "...assuming the Pres was struck at frame 210...." is almost as good as "....and then exiting from the hole that you have described in the midline of the neck. Now, assuming those facts to be true, would the hole which you observed in the neck of the President be consistent with an exit wound under those circumstances? The old is-an-exit-hole-an-exit hole trick... Specter was a crafty one... If he was struck at 210 one has to wonder what he's reacting to between 190 and 200. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris Davidson Posted June 29, 2016 Author Share Posted June 29, 2016 (edited) David, Added on edit: Disregard for now. I believe I have a better example to come. Sorry about that. Since it's supposed to be the same shot between the TV program and WC, I'd take the difference of the 4" and 5.75" distances and plug them back in. 5.75/4 = 1.4375/1 The end result of 4" was an angle of 19.1deg. WC stated angle of 21deg 34min @ z208/210 depending on which CE884 is used, doesn't matter, just need the angle. Difference between what the program (Beyond Magic Bullet) and WC determination = 21deg34min - 19.1deg(19deg 6min)= 2deg 28min 2deg 28min = 2.4666..deg x 1.4375 (5.75"/4" difference) = 3.545 deg 3.545deg - 2.466deg = 1.079deg (1deg 4.74min) difference 19deg 6min(19.1deg) + 1deg 4.74min = 20deg10.74min = CE884 z225 No jacket shirt bunch- back shot 5.75" down from collar top at extant z225. Edited June 29, 2016 by Chris Davidson Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Walton Posted June 29, 2016 Share Posted June 29, 2016 Tom Neal sorry I overlooked your questions to me. I will definitely reply to them when I'm on a computer. I hate typing on a phone but I will definitely reply. Thanks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Josephs Posted June 29, 2016 Share Posted June 29, 2016 David, Since it's supposed to be the same shot between the TV program and WC, I'd take the difference of the 4" and 5.75" distances and plug them back in. 5.75/4 = 1.4375/1 The end result of 4" was an angle of 19.1deg. WC stated angle of 21deg 34min @ z208/210 depending on which CE884 is used, doesn't matter, just need the angle. Difference between what the program (Beyond Magic Bullet) and WC determination = 21deg34min - 19.1deg(19deg 6min)= 2deg 28min 2deg 28min = 2.4666..deg x 1.4375 (5.75"/4" difference) = 3.545 deg 3.545deg - 2.466deg = 1.079deg (1deg 4.74min) difference 19deg 6min(19.1deg) + 1deg 4.74min = 20deg10.74min = CE884 z225 No jacket shirt bunch- back shot 5.75" down from collar top at extant z225. Thanks again Chris... You've found a series of levers: Window sill, Rifle muzzle, 4" down, 5+" down, rear bumper, JFK, JC, front bumper, JFK top of head elevation, 18.3fps related to rise/run of Elm and the 10" recreation vehicle difference related to the angle's origination point. The front bumper of the limo is 20.34/18.3= 1.166 feet lower than the rear at any given time along Elm when the rear bumper hits the 61' mark in Shaneyfelt's drawing Thanks for taking the time and having the patience to work thru this Chris... becomes invaluable as I write about WCD298 and the disappearing 3rd shot that never existed in the first place. The problem I have with Z225 is 1) it is obvious a shot had been fired with another soon after z225 hitting JC - extant film 2) the NPIC notes and LIFE do not recognize a shot in the Z225 range This is the NPIC "figgur it out" sheet for the Homer McMahon briefing boards. Z242? LIFE's z264?? Like they were looking at a different film than the rest of us.... DJ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris Davidson Posted June 29, 2016 Author Share Posted June 29, 2016 (edited) David, Added on edit: Disregard for now. I believe I have a better example to come. Sorry about that. Since it's supposed to be the same shot between the TV program and WC, I'd take the difference of the 4" and 5.75" distances and plug them back in. 5.75/4 = 1.4375/1 The end result of 4" was an angle of 19.1deg. WC stated angle of 21deg 34min @ z208/210 depending on which CE884 is used, doesn't matter, just need the angle. Difference between what the program (Beyond Magic Bullet) and WC determination = 21deg34min - 19.1deg(19deg 6min)= 2deg 28min 2deg 28min = 2.4666..deg x 1.4375 (5.75"/4" difference) = 3.545 deg 3.545deg - 2.466deg = 1.079deg (1deg 4.74min) difference 19deg 6min(19.1deg) + 1deg 4.74min = 20deg10.74min = CE884 z225 No jacket shirt bunch- back shot 5.75" down from collar top at extant z225. Chris' dress shirt collar = 1.875" vertical length-back of neck span I am the same height as JFK = 6' 1/2" = 72.5inches Sitting down(measured by my wife) from my rear end up to the top of my dress shirt collar is 28 7/8inches = 28.875" 28.875" - 1.875"(collar length) = 27" 27" = rear end to bottom of shirt collar. 27" - 4"(Magic Bullet Program) = 23" Chris' top of collar = 28.875" - 5.75" (shirt bullet hole location) = 23.125" Same Location. Close enough for goobermint work. Bennett was close enough. imo Added on edit: A jacket bunch of 3/8" probable, a 5.75" shirt bunch, priceless. Edited June 29, 2016 by Chris Davidson Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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