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Jim Hargrove

Two Dallas cops were involved in the pre-arranged murder of Tippit...

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If the authorities wanted a LATER time-of-death so as NOT to exclude Oswald as a suspect, why would they choose a time of death earlier than the time he actually arrived at the hospital? 1:15 instead of 1:18? And why choose a time of death that is inconsistent with the ambulance driver's testimony and ambulance logs? (Or MORE inconsistent.)

But guess what... there is one more thing to consider. In his statement, T.F. Bowley says that the ambulance arrived "a few minutes" after he made his call. If we conservatively use 2 minutes for "a few minutes," then the ambulance ends up arriving at 1:20. I ask again, why wouldn't the officials have used that time as the official time of death? Instead of choosing 1:15?

"Time of Death" is an ambiguous term. Does it mean the time of the fatal shot, or the time he was pronounced dead? There are documents that put the time he was declared dead at 1:25. IMO, they wanted the shooting time at about 1:15 and the declared time of death as about 1:25. This gives LHO another 10 minutes to arrive and kill JDT.

It doesn't matter what time they say the ambulance arrived, or what time they called him dead at the hospital - as long as it doesn't conflict with the 1:15 shooting time, which coincides perfectly with a 1:18 time of arrival for the ambulance, and the documentation of this time is conveniently missing.

Tom

Tom,

You make a fair and logical point.

(To which I'll just make the following remark: Suppose the true arrival time of the ambulance to the hospital was 1:15... a time supported by my current timeline. The doctors could have announced Tippit DOA at 1:15. The coroner could have overruled this time and announced the true time of death as being 1:06. The authorities could have later decided that the original 1:15 time of death was necessary in order to implicate Oswald, but the fact that is was DOA time had to be suppressed. And this would explain the 1:06 on the death certificate being changed to 1:15. This is scenario that makes sense to me.)

But regardless of that, I'm willing to consider what you're saying here.

Now, let me ask you the something:

We all believe the true TOD to be 1:06 PM. I think we all believe that Mrs. Frank Wright called the police pretty fast... no later than 1:07. The question is, how long would it have taken for the ambulance to arrive after Mrs.Wright made her call? All the reports I've seen suggest that it took little more than one minute. I personally believe it could have taken as long as two minutes. On my current timeline, I have the time delay at three minutes, so that the ambulance arrives at 1:10. (I made it longer than my personal 2 minute belief so that it could be reasonably reconciled with T.F. Bowley's statement.)

What is your position on this?

I haven't really devoted much time on the ambulance, because in the larger scheme of things it doesn't affect the evidence that the actual shooting took place at 1:06. That gives LHO his alibi, as he was seen at his rooming house at 1:04. If he really went there just to pick up his gun, where in that closet-sized room had he been hiding that pistol and holster? The woman that cleaned his room never saw either item.

Trying to get events down to the correct minute when dealing with all the variables...I don't know. I think that the shots were fired at 1:06, Mrs. Wright called at 1:07, and Hughes had the call by 1:08. It would certainly be easy to change 1:08 to 1:18 to give LHO more time to arrive as the shooter. The statement that the call was logged and machine time-stamped at 1:18 is told only in the 3rd-person from what I've read. It would be interesting to find out from J. Clayton Butler or Hughes IF that was the system used at that time, and did DPD, FBI, SS or someone take the original? Considering how often 'time-stamped at 1:18' is stated in publications I had at first believed this document was available. I have found numerous statements from researchers that they were unable to find it. You'd think it would have been published in the WCR. Also, Butler's HSCA testimony is not printed in the volumes as far as I can tell, but both Bugliosi and Myers list it as a source. If the ambulance driver's testimony wasn't considered important enough to print, why was he called to testify? Or did he perhaps contradict the 1:18 time?

Have you tried listing one column with times by the minute, and then in the next columns what event each witness stated had occurred at that time, and how they determined that time?

01:06 *** Mr/Mrs Wright - Shots fired (TV time hack) *** Helen Markham - Shots fired (her arrival time at the bus stop)

01:07

01:08

In the above example, the 1:06 time was determined independently by Markham and the Wrights, both of whom had good time references. This format would make it easier to evaluate and compare the witnesses statements with events such as the arrival of the ambulance.

BTW,

Ann McRavin (Mrs. Charles McRavin) of 404 East 10th St. (the shooting occurred in HER front yard!)

In the 1964 BBC program "The Day the President Died":

"I was standing at the window and I saw a man run by, and then there was a police car coming down the street and the policeman jumped out of the car, and just as he did the man turned around and shot him, and the man fell." Killer described by narrator as "fair-haired young man in shirt sleeves."

Although she witnessed the entire event, Mrs. McRavin was NOT called to testify by the WC, and I can't find a DPD record of an interview.

If an actual investigation had taken place, DPD would have a stack of records from each owner/tenant of the entire 400 block on 10th Street. Even if the statement said "didn't see a thing" or "wasn't home" the records would be kept to prove they had interviewed ALL POSSIBLE witnesses. Has DPD ever claimed they did this?

Tom

Tom.

Thanks for your comments, and I apologize for not responding earlier. I got a little burned out working on the timeline, followed by my Croy debate with Jim.

I think you have a good point, that 1:08 could have easily been changed to the reported 1:18 ambulance dispatch time. My current thinking is that the 1:08 time was changed to 1:18 as you stated; that Tippit was declared DOA at 1:15 (the time at which his body arrived at the hospital), but this was changed to 1:06 by someone with the authority to do so (autopsist?) based on the shooting time as given by witnesses. Later, 1:06 was changed back to 1:15 by the FBI so that Oswald could be blamed for the murder (1:06 was too early); and this was later changed again, to 1:25, by the FBI so that the 1:18 ambulance dispatch time didn't precede the official time of death.

Works for me!

Tom

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John Armstrong sent me an email a week ago or so in which he asked me to edit and post “to honest and knowledgeable Internet discussion groups” his thoughts about the murder of J.D. Tippit and how the facts were altered in the official reports about it. Here ‘tis….

He hopes that someone will write an article that explains why certain witnesses to the Tippit killing were ignored because of their testimony as to the time of the shooting, while the statements of other witnesses who provided no time for the shooting were used…

He hopes that someone will post a story that explains how WC attorneys failed to ask important questions of witnesses (such as asking Virginia Davis why she made the statement that Tippit lived next door).

He hopes this story will explain the disappearance of original documents related to officer Tippit’s murder (Dudley Hughes’ time-stamped dispatch, Tippit’s original death certificate, the two halves of dollar bills taken from Oswald, the Westbrook wallet, etc).

John added: “The cover-up of the Tippit assassination (including the time of the shooting, individuals involved in the shooting, the disappearance and manipulation of evidence, etc.) is much easier to understand, and much more limited, than the facts surrounding the assassination of President Kennedy. But understanding how official reports on the assassination of Tippit were manipulated and distorted will give insight regarding the methods used to cover-up the true nature of the Kennedy assassination.”

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On 6/1/2016 at 9:11 PM, Chuck Schwartz said:

WR Westbrook appears to have been a member of an intelligence unit in Dallas, per this this piece:

488th Reserve Military Intelligence Detachment

The chain of command for the 488th Reserve went up through the Assistant Chief of Staff for Intelligence,

Chuck,

 

This was an outstanding piece of work. Thank you.

It leads me to a couple of questions:

1) Everyone seems to take the following statement at face value: (from the info piece on the 488th here: http://spartacus-educational.com/JFK488mid.htm

"In 1956 Jack Alston Crichton started up his own spy unit, the 488th Military Intelligence Detachment in Dallas. Crichton served as the unit's commander under Lieutenant Colonel George Whitmeyer, who was in overall command of all Army Reserve units in East Texas. In an interview Crichton claimed that there were "about a hundred men in that unit and about forty or fifty of them were from the Dallas Police Department.""

 

Now, one doesn't form a military "unit" on their own. The Army wouldn't stand for it, and wouldn't authorize any expenditures for it. So, is this "unit" something dreamed up in Crichton's own mind in some kind of delusions of grandeur? The statement I cited says that the "unit's" commander was Whitmeyer. Has anyone ever seen a single piece of paper with the 488th's name on it? A report? a Document? a File? a TOD or a TOE? You wrote,  "The chain of command for the 488th Reserve went up through the Assistant Chief of Staff for Intelligence...."

What Company, Regiment, Division did it belong to?

 

2) On this same web site in an info piece on Jack Crichton it says, " In an interview Crichton claimed that there were "about a hundred men in that unit and about forty or fifty of them were from the Dallas Police Department." 

 

Do you know if that interview is online anywhere?

 

Thanks again for your work.

 

Steve Thomas

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On 7/12/2016 at 8:06 PM, Jim Hargrove said:

Nothing concerning CROY'S appearance or experiences at the Tippit site was ever officially recorded.

Does anyone know what Croy's Officer ID# was?

I ask because I don't see anything in the Dallas Dispatch tapes referring to him.

 

Steve Thomas

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Steve,

I spent hours last summer trying to find Croy's badge number online without success. I skimmed through his WC testimony and didn't see it, nor was it listed on his 11/26/63 letter to Curry (WCE 5052), one of the few clear docs I could find from him. If you have any luck locating it, please post here.

Jim

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3 hours ago, Jim Hargrove said:

Steve,

I spent hours last summer trying to find Croy's badge number online without success. I skimmed through his WC testimony and didn't see it, nor was it listed on his 11/26/63 letter to Curry (WCE 5052), one of the few clear docs I could find from him. If you have any luck locating it, please post here.

Jim

Jim,

Two things:

 

1) I'm thinking that Reserve Officers weren't issued badge numbers like regular policemen were. A lot of the Reports of Officers' Duties on the 24th of Nov. were put together in Box 14 of the DPD Archives. http://jfk.ci.dallas.tx.us/box14.htm

I had to smile. Compare the Report of Croy in Box 14 Folder# 2, Item# 46 with a guy named O.W. Harrison, also a Reserve Officer in Box 14, Folder# 2, Item# 86.

Looks like the were done with the same cookie cutter. *smile*

 

2) I'm thinking that Croy was driving around in his own car that a police scanner in it. In his WC testimony, Croy said that he heard the President had been shot when the call came in over the radio, and that he was at Colorado and Zangs when the call came over the radio that an Officer had been shot at 501 E. 10th.

But, on the Dispatch Tapes, you never hear him respond that he is Code 5 (enroute), or Code 6 (that he's arrived). And you don't hear the Dispatcher directing him there, and him responding. It makes me think that he could hear, but couldn't transmit. I think that's why he stopped at the Courthouse and asked some officers if they needed any help, rather that calling in by radio.

 

Steve Thomas

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To be a bit more specific, in his private remarks shortly before his death Martino told two friends that elements of the plan unraveled at the point at which Oswald shot Tippett. He never claimed to know many details, but what he did hear was that everything had begun to go off track shortly after the shooting of JFK.

On the other point, Martino did know that JFK was to be assassinated in Dallas, he slipped in a remark during his family and stated that JFK was going to be killed on his trip to Texas - in a follow up to that, on the morning of Nov. 22 he kept his son out of school (my suspicion is that he didn't want his son to start talking about his father knowing that was going to happen).

There is no indication that Martino knew a lot of tactical detail about the operation in Dallas and very likely not the identities of all the participants - although his good friend Vidal Santiago was there that day. 

 

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On 1/7/2017 at 5:04 PM, Larry Hancock said:

To be a bit more specific, in his private remarks shortly before his death Martino told two friends that elements of the plan unraveled at the point at which Oswald shot Tippitt. He never claimed to know many details, but what he did hear was that everything had begun to go off track shortly after the shooting of JFK.

On the other point, Martino did know that JFK was to be assassinated in Dallas, he slipped in a remark during his family and stated that JFK was going to be killed on his trip to Texas - in a follow up to that, on the morning of Nov. 22 he kept his son out of school (my suspicion is that he didn't want his son to start talking about his father knowing that was going to happen).

There is no indication that Martino knew a lot of tactical detail about the operation in Dallas and very likely not the identities of all the participants - although his good friend Vidal Santiago was there that day. 

Larry,

Your evidence suggests that Johnny Martino knew a lot about the JFK plot -- except for the Dallas players and their local Dallas planning.

Officers W.R. Westbrook and Ken Croy were part of the local Dallas planning, apparently -- and the role of J.D. Tippit (like the role of Roscoe White) would have been unknown to a Miami guy like Johnny Martino.

Although I disagree with the "Harvey and Lee" CT, the solid evidence linking Westbrook and Croy with the Tippit slaying is strong, IMHO.   Except that I myself doubt that the CIA had any knowledge of it -- just as Johnny Martino had no knowledge of it.  IT WAS A LOCAL THING.

The proper suspects in the Dallas plot are Dallas locals, IMHO.  Two books come immediately to mind: Walt Brown's, Treachery in Dallas (1995), which makes a solid case for the involvement of Dallas Police rogues in the JFK assassination, and Jeff Caufield's, General Walker and the Murder of President Kennedy (2015), which makes a solid case that General Walker's Radical Right led rogues in the Dallas Police.

It's little wonder that Johnny Martino didn't know about the Westbrook/Croy connection -- because Martino was so far removed from the specifics of the Dallas plot -- which was where the real action was.

As CIA agent Howard Hunt confessed to his son about his own rogue involvement in the JFK assassination, "I was only on the sidelines."  It seems to me that David Morales was only a little closer on the sidelines.  The center of the plot was in Dallas; and Johnny Martino never saw it up close, evidently. 

Regards,
--Paul Trejo

Edited by Paul Trejo

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On 1/7/2017 at 0:20 PM, Jim Hargrove said:

Steve,

I spent hours last summer trying to find Croy's badge number online without success. I skimmed through his WC testimony and didn't see it, nor was it listed on his 11/26/63 letter to Curry (WCE 5052), one of the few clear docs I could find from him. If you have any luck locating it, please post here.

Jim

Jim,

 

I guess I was wrong. In Box 14, Folder# 2, Item# 55, there is a Report from a Robert T. Davis to Captain Solomon recounting his duties on November 24th. He identifies himself as Robert T. Davis, Reserve Officer # 957. I guess that if you were to look for something associated with Croy, you'd look somewhere in the 900's.

http://jfk.ci.dallas.tx.us/box14.htm

 

 

Solomon told the WC, and in his Solomon's Exhibit 5107 (21H534) that  a Reserve Officer could only be on duty while in the presence of a regular officer. If Croy was running around by himself, he wasn't on duty.

 

Steve Thomas

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Today I happened upon an article entitled "The incredible story of Mike Robinson" and I read it. I just came upon this thread and ran a search (of just this thread) for "Mike Robinson". The search came up blank. I don't have time to read this whole thread right now, but I figured I would post the article here in case it is as relevant as the thread title suggests.

http://jfkcountercoup2.blogspot.com/2012/11/the-incredible-story-of-mike-robinson.html

 

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On ‎1‎/‎24‎/‎2017 at 5:22 PM, Michael Clark said:

Today I happened upon an article entitled "The incredible story of Mike Robinson" and I read it. I just came upon this thread and ran a search (of just this thread) for "Mike Robinson". The search came up blank. I don't have time to read this whole thread right now, but I figured I would post the article here in case it is as relevant as the thread title suggests.

http://jfkcountercoup2.blogspot.com/2012/11/the-incredible-story-of-mike-robinson.html

Mike,

Many of us first read the story of Mike Robinson in the superb book by Walt Brown, Treachery in Dallas (1995).

I myself believe Walt Brown 100%.   I highly recommend his book.  He almost solved the JFK case in 1995; if only he had more support.

Regards,
--Paul Trejo

Edited by Paul Trejo

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On 1/8/2017 at 5:10 PM, Paul Trejo said:

It's little wonder that Johnny Martino didn't know about the Westbrook/Croy connection -- because Martino was so far removed from the specifics of the Dallas plot -- which was where the real action was.

Or that is how tactical, paramilitary cells coordinate. Not everyone knows the details of a covert operation and they are generally highly compartmentalized. Mr Hancock has touched on this in many talks/audios, his written work, etc. Morales made a strong verbal admission which seems to imply that he more than likely played a role and that is just the tip of the iceberg when you consider who he was, he he trained, etc. That is a very powerful lead.

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If you check the statements his friends provided to the HSCA you can see exactly how much and how little Martino knew, he was quite clear to them that his knowledge of the plan and the participants was very limited.  Specifically he told them that Oswald was not supposed to be taken into custody and his capture ruined the rest of the plan.  Not sure he knew exactly what that was but he did know Oswald was not supposed to be alive.   

 

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13 hours ago, Larry Hancock said:

If you check the statements his friends provided to the HSCA you can see exactly how much and how little Martino knew, he was quite clear to them that his knowledge of the plan and the participants was very limited.  Specifically he told them that Oswald was not supposed to be taken into custody and his capture ruined the rest of the plan.  Not sure he knew exactly what that was but he did know Oswald was not supposed to be alive.   

 

If accurate about the Oswald escape, there's the influence of variables:

-- Two Oswalds?

-- Competing interests in the direction of the cover-up?

How does Martino's statement affect the view that Oswald was always the designated patsy?

Throwing this out for all, not specifically Larry.

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