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Jim Hargrove

Two Dallas cops were involved in the pre-arranged murder of Tippit...

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Tom

I'm old school, and still retain/purchase print versions of JFK books that I value. They fill up my bookshelves, and I lend them out to folks who are interested in diving into the JFK story and learning about the assassination.  I am frequently asked (as the infamous person in the family "into the JFK thing") what are the best books to read.  Joe McBride's book is on my short list, and I share it with those who want a balanced and insightful view of the mysteries surrounding John Kennedy's murder.  What impresses me about McBride's work is (a) he is a journalist, experienced writer and academic, (b) he spent many years assembling facts and creating the book, and (c) he offers an honest and unbiased approach.  His work on the Tippit story is unique and revealing, and it puts the Dale Meyers "mythology" into proper perspective. McBride interviewed or investigated individuals never much explored before (e.g. Marie Tippit, Tippit's father, fellow policemen) and he raises some interesting questions . The book is fairly long (over 600 pages) and well-sourced ... reading it was more of a marathon than a sprint. The pictures (only a few pages worth) include personal campaign photographs from Milwaukee circa 1960 of JFK.  Its clear that Joe admired JFK as a leader, as many young people of our era did.  The pictures are not what draws me to the book; its his fresh look at some old facts, in a different light.  It paints a portrait of the DPD at the time, and the law enforcement community in Dallas in the 1960's ... the "climate" surrounding the events that unfolded.    

Gene

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Maybe Joe McBride will comment on some of this stuff.  Would be very interesting to get his thoughts.  He comes by the forum once in a while.

From John A....

I recently looked over the items taken from LHO's wallet.

On 11/22/63 there is no photographic evidence or list of inventoried items from the wallet that shows with the SS Hidell card nor the 
USMC Certificate of Service card in the name of Hidell. And neither card is listed on the DPD typewritten inventory of LHO's possessions (225 items).

On 11/23/63 all of LHO's possessions were at FBI headquarters in Washington, DC and most items were coated with finger print ink, including
items from LHO's wallet (see photograph).

We know that Westbrook had the 2nd wallet, and we know that he told fellow officers that it contained ID for Oswald and Hidell. 

I think it is likely that Westbrook took these two cards from the 2nd wallet and placed them in DPD inventory the following day (AFTER LHO's possessions
had been sent to Washington, DC). It would be very interesting to see who "officially" placed these items in inventory and when.

On 11/26/63 LHO's possessions were returned to the Dallas Police and a joint inventory was made totaling 455 items. We now see
that all items from LHO's wallet were covered with fingerprint ink, but NOT the two cards with Hidell identification. Seems if these two cards had
been sent to FBI headquarters with other items from LHO's wallet they would have been coated with fingerprint ink.

What do you think? Capt Westbrook was the first person known to have possession of Hidell identification.  Was Westbrook responsible for placing them in the DPD inventory?

Edited by Jim Hargrove

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Been speaking with John about the inventory from the DPD to FBI and back again...

250 items leave, 455 numbered items return...  WCD345 is the FBI "unofficial inventory" yet it matches the numbered inventories and the lettered inventories exactly...

The focus has been the wallet and the HIDELL ID...

There is only 1 wallet in evidence said to contain anything of importance...

This wallet is NOT listed in the 455 items but is listed as "B1" with all its contents NOT listed separately, but under B1.

There are "A, B, C, & D" lists of evidence...  the "D" list of evidence appears to be a variety of documents specifically related to Oswald and Marina...  the SS Notice truly seems out of place on this list...

Since it was not in the 1 wallet in custody, and there was no other wallet turned in... one has to wonder about the chain of custody for D71...

https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=10746#relPageId=37&tab=page 

367531412_SSScardinHIDELLnamenotpartofWalletcontentsWCD345D71isHidellSSSNcard.jpg.2e0c32b751be5e173a2cbe75ccb7ae14.jpg

 

What you will not find on the HIDELL items is the DPD inventory check from the night of 11/22 ...  Items that came back from FBI in DC on the 26th that were not at the DPD 11/22 will not have this notation

977336243_DPDnotationfrom11-22onitemstakenbyFBI-thisisnotonHIDELLevidence.jpg.e696af3d9f7ba5c1a0139b1474c4c1d9.jpg

 

 

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20 minutes ago, Jim Hargrove said:

Maybe Joe McBride will comment on some of this stuff.  Would be very interesting to get his thoughts.  He comes by the forum once in a while.

From John A....

I recently looked over the items taken from LHO's wallet.

On 11/22/63 there is no photographic evidence or list of inventoried items from the wallet that shows with the SS Hidell card nor the 
USMC Certificate of Service card in the name of Hidell. And neither card is listed on the DPD typewritten inventory of LHO's possessions (225 items).

 

Jim,

 

I don't know how this factors in, but both Guy Rose of the DPD and Manning Clements of the FBI told the WC that they examined the wallet on Friday, and said they saw the Hidell ID in it.

http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/russ/testimony/rose_g.htm

http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/russ/testimony/clements.htm

 

Rose told the WC he saw that ID before he went to Irving to search the place at 2:30 PM.

 

Like I said, I don't how that fits.

 

Steve Thomas

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For "BO" to ask Oswald about "HIDELL" as having been on ID in his wallet (per FBI SA Manning Clements), the inventory listed in Clements' report must have been correct...

I hope to show here that it seems virtually impossible for both ID's to have been seen on the 23rd, just in time to match Klein's production of the Hidell Money Order....
another provably fabricated item of evidence....

===

Assuming that someone at DPD did see the HIDELL "SS Notice of Classification" along with all the other items in the wallet... 

We need to look back to the chain of possession:

  1. In 1996 after Hosty's book, Croy claims to have given a wallet he found to Westbrook
  2. Westbrook shows a wallet with HIDELL ID at the Tippit scene  (from H&L)

    But Capt. Westbrook had a very good reason for driving to 10th & Patton. It was there, at the murder scene, that Westbrook showed fellow police officers the wallet .....    Identification in this wallet would identify "Lee Harvey Oswald" as the prime suspect in the murder of officer Tippit. Identification for "Alek Hidell," also found in this wallet, would link Oswald/Hidell to the rifle found on the 6th floor of the Book Depository. There were now many police and dozens and dozens of on-lookers at 10th & Patton with whom Westbrook could mingle. 

    A few minutes later, at 1:42 PM, crime lab officers George Doughty, W.E. Barnes, and Paul Bentley arrived and inspected the wallet produced by Westbrook. FBI Agent Bob Barrett arrived, parked his car, and walked toward Tippit's patrol car. Barrett explained, "I went on over there and Captain Westbrook was there with several of his officers.... It hadn't been very long when Westbrook looked up and saw me and called me over. He had this wallet in his hand. Now, I don't know where he found it, but he had the wallet in his hand... the wallet was there. There's no getting around that. Westbrook had the wallet in his hand and asked me if I knew who these people were. I'm adamant that there was a wallet in somebody's hand and Westbrook asked me if I knew who 'Lee Harvey Oswald' was and who 'Hidell' were." 

    As Westbrook showed the wallet to Barrett and fellow DPD officers, WFAA-TV Channel 8 news photographer Ron Reiland filmed the wallet. Sgt. Bud Owens was holding the wallet while Capt. Doughty was looking at the wallet.

     

  3. Oswald is arrested and is back at DPD by 2pm where Doughty, Barnes, & Bentley also ultimately wind up with Westbrook and Hill.

    It should now be widely known that the man in custody has 2 ID's, one SSS card with Oswald AND NO PHOTO while the other SSS card is for Hidell WITH A PHOTO
    The real SSS cards do NOT have a photo
    133849029_DODcardandSSScardhavesameMinskphoto-DPDdidnotnoticeordidnotseeit-yetisonFBIlistofevidencefromtheWALLET-smaller.thumb.jpg.c1b32afd82c8465266c90e6354ee7e9a.jpg
     
  4. Notes are taken at the interrogations which take place on the 22nd, all day the 23rd and the morning of the 24th
    Kelley, Hosty, Bookout, Clemments and someone called "B. O."

    1796967318_BOCalvinBudOwensasksaboutHidellat11-23interrogation.jpg.481abc085d82d6832cbb411a944f55dc.jpg
     
  5. As shown above, Clemments informs us that the interrogation included questions about the contents of his wallet... (there was a RED wallet from Irving, the wallet on Oswald when he was arrested and THIS wallet...)
    Clemments lists the contents of the wallet which matches the FBI's "B1" list except for the real SSS card which is listed twice... first on the initial page next to the fake one yet is not called a SSS card this time... and then 2 pages later when it is called out as a SS No. card....

    It is important to note that the DPD would now be looking at 2 pieces of ID which conflict with each other... one with a photo and one without...
    yet also listed in the contents is his USMC Cert of Service #4,271,617 which also has a photo on it...

    Yet if you look... they are the same photo.. and even worse... the photo is of Oswald from MINSK.

    5802487_OswaldSept59andJan60-PassportDoDandSSSphotos-Minsk.thumb.jpg.4c64adec642b08105e15677c2e565f14.jpg


    Are we to believe - that despite having these items in their possession - or at least awareness of their existence...  Oswald was not asked about the 2 identities until the afternoon of the 23rd? and then by someone Fritz calls "B.O."  Best we could figure out - since Bardum Odum is not listed on the FBI list of Interrogation attendees - is this must be Bud Owens given the interrogation was initially related to Tippit's murder...

    I am guessing that Fritz used the initials BO since the HIDELL ID would be side by side with Oswald's real ID since there is one and only one wallet EVER mentioned containing identification:

    Mr. HILL. That was the second question that was asked the suspect, and he didn't answer it, either. 
    About the time I got through with the radio transmission, I asked Paul Bentley, "Why don't you see if he has any identification." 
    Paul was sitting sort of sideways in the seat, and with his right hand he reached down and felt of the suspect's left hip pocket and said, "Yes, he has a billfold," and took it out. 
    I never did have the billfold in my possession, but the name Lee Oswald was called out by Bentley from the back seat, and said this identification, I believe, was on the library card. 
    And he also made the statement that there was some more identification in this other name which I don't remember, but it was the same name that later came in the paper that he bought the gun under. 
    Mr. BELIN. Would the name Hidell mean anything? Alek Hidell? 
    Mr. HILL. That would be similar. I couldn't say specifically that is what it was, because this was a conversation and I never did see it written down, but that sounds like the name that I heard. 
    Mr. BELIN. Was this the first time you learned of the name? 
    Mr. HILL. Yes; it was. 
    Mr. BELIN. All right; when did you learn of his address? 
    Mr. HILL. There were two different addresses on the identification. 
    One of them was in Oak Cliff. The other one was in Irving. But as near as I can recall of the conversation in the car, this was strictly conversation, because I didn't read any of the stuff. It didn't have an address on Beckley, that I recall hearing. 
    Mr. BELIN. Let me ask you this. Now from the time you got in the car to the time you got to the station, I believe you said that at least the second question asked was where do you live, and the man didn't answer? 
    Mr. HILL. The man didn't answer. 
    Mr. BELIN. Was he ever asked again where he lived, up to the time you got to the station? 
    Mr. HILL. No; I don't believe so, because when Bentley got the identification out, we had two different addresses. We had two different names, and the comment was made, "I guess we are going to have to wait until we get to the station to find out who he actually is." 
    After about the time Bentley reached in his pocket and got his billfold,

    Mr. BELIN. At any time up to the time you left, did you ever get any address on the suspect as to where he lived other than the statement of Captain Fritz that he had this address on Fifth Street somewhere in Irving? 

    Mr. HILL. Paul Bentley called off two addresses. One, as I recall, in Irving, and another one in Oak Cliff, when he was reading from information inside the suspect's billfold. But neither of these addresses was an address on 10th or on Beckley. 
    As to exactly what they were, I don't recall, as I didn't see the identification. 
     
  6. It is not until many, many years later that we learn of the CROY>WESTBROOK wallet, (thanks I understand to Dale Myers?) and his re-questioning of Barrett and Croy   http://jfkfiles.blogspot.com/2014/03/solving-tippit-murders-wallet-mystery.html 

    Dale appears to conclude that the TV wallet and archive wallets are not the same...  
     
    • The wallet seen in the WFAA-TV news film is similar in style to Oswald’s arrest wallet, however, they are clearly not identical – period. It’s not even close. In particular, the newsfilm wallet has a leather flap that is square, while Oswald’s arrest wallet flap is rounded. In addition, the news film wallet is obviously thinner and more worn than Oswald’s arrest wallet.
    • Kenneth H. Croy told me in 2009 that the wallet turned over to him at the Tippit shooting scene had seven or so identification cards in it, and that none were in the name of Oswald. Why then did Croy think the wallet was Oswald’s? Croy’s belief that the wallet was Oswald’s was based on an assumption that Tippit’s killer dropped the wallet, and that since Oswald was later arrested for Tippit’s murder, the wallet must have been his. Croy told me that he had no first hand knowledge that the wallet contained anything that connected it to suspect Oswald.
    • FBI agent Robert Barrett did not know how police got the wallet or where it was found. He never handled the wallet or saw the identification cards in it. His recollection was that Captain Westbrook was holding a wallet while at the scene and asked him (Barrett) at the scene about the names Oswald and Hidell.
    • FBI agent Barrett returned to Dallas police headquarters following Oswald’s arrest to make sure the arrest report contained information that Oswald’s civil rights were not violated at the theater and subsequently was in contact with officers, including Westbrook, who had learned Oswald’s wallet contained two names – Oswald and Hidell. Was this what Barrett was recalling? Barrett says no.
    • FBI agent Barrett was known by fellow agents as being one who put meticulous details in his reports, the kind of details other agents usually overlooked. Barrett’s contemporary report of his activities on November 22, 1963, fails to mention the wallet, as does his 1975 testimony to the Senate Intelligence Committee during which he recounted his activities that day.
    • Both Barrett and Croy’s recollections are based on thirty to forty-year-old memories. None of their contemporary reports or testimony mention the recovery of Oswald’s wallet – a highly curious oversight given the significance both men now attach to the discovery. Croy’s latter claims about the wallet are particularly suspect given that he was first reportedly interview about it in 2005 by conspiracy advocate Jones Harris, seven years after the publication of With Malice.

     
  7. It certainly appears strange that the same key players: Westbrook, Croy and Hill (who transferred to Westbrook's squad about the same time Oswald started working at the TSBD) are so involved in virtually every aspect of that day's activities and we have the Captain and a Detective for Personnel Division and an unscheduled Reservist handing virtually all of the most incriminating evidence from that day...

Hill is pretty adamant about NOT seeing a wallet or any ID...  Seems he senses something wrong with WESTBROOK and what's going on, but that's only a hunch.

The dates on the FBI reports are the dates... whether accurate and true... who knows yet as of the 23rd DPD HQ was aware that their man in custody had ID offering 2 different names...  It just seems to me that anyone with a brain could see these ID's conflicted,,, or they didn't and HIDELL's ID with Oswald's image was created by someone else...

Possibly Harvey himself... yet the DPD had recently added a quite adept photo manipulator by the name of Roscoe White...

 

 

 

 

 

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DJ and Steve,

Now this is getting INTERESTING!

You both present info and evidence indicating the Hidell ID should have been well known around DPD headquarters while it was still the afternoon of 11/22/63.  Which seems entirely logical, except….  Below is a picture of the wallet contents with the Oswald IDs (but not the Hidell IDs).  Notice that each ID was saturated with fingerprint ink when “Oswald’s” possessions were secretly returned to Dallas on the 26th after the secret transfer to the FBI the night of November 22/23.  The ink was quite visible when the photo below was taken in Dallas on the 26th.

Wallet_LHO_ID.jpg

 

Which makes perfect sense.  Why, then, is there no fingerprint ink on the Hidell ID’s?????

med_res

Would you not want to know whose fingerprints were on the ID card for the alias fellow who supposedly bought the rifle that supposedly killed JFK?  No interest in that, right?

Also, as JA pointed out above, “ On 11/22/63 there is no photographic evidence or list of inventoried items from the wallet that shows with the SS Hidell card nor the USMC Certificate of Service card in the name of Hidell. And neither card is listed on the DPD typewritten inventory of LHO's possessions (225 items).

Does this really add up?
 

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2 hours ago, Jim Hargrove said:

DJ and Steve,

Now this is getting INTERESTING!

You both present info and evidence indicating the Hidell ID should have been well known around DPD headquarters while it was still the afternoon of 11/22/63.  Which seems entirely logical, except….  Below is a picture of the wallet contents with the Oswald IDs (but not the Hidell IDs).  Notice that each ID was saturated with fingerprint ink when “Oswald’s” possessions were secretly returned to Dallas on the 26th after the secret transfer to the FBI the night of November 22/23.  The ink was quite visible when the photo below was taken in Dallas on the 26th.

Wallet_LHO_ID.jpg

 

Which makes perfect sense.  Why, then, is there no fingerprint ink on the Hidell ID’s?????

med_res

Would you not want to know whose fingerprints were on the ID card for the alias fellow who supposedly bought the rifle that supposedly killed JFK?  No interest in that, right?

Also, as JA pointed out above, “ On 11/22/63 there is no photographic evidence or list of inventoried items from the wallet that shows with the SS Hidell card nor the USMC Certificate of Service card in the name of Hidell. And neither card is listed on the DPD typewritten inventory of LHO's possessions (225 items).

Does this really add up?
 

Nope.  Why are the ink stains only on the identification cards in your first picture, obliterating information on 4 of 5 of them, but not on his, Marina's, or the baby's?  An intentional accident?  Suspiciously incidental?  Are there close ups available of the 4 stained ID's?  They look kind of like a Rorschach test.   

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