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Jim Hargrove

Two Dallas cops were involved in the pre-arranged murder of Tippit...

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From his interview with HSCA's Moriarty, it appears that Jack Tatum thought Tippit's killer looked like Lee Harvey Oswald.

Tatum.jpg

 

If this is true (we are dealing with the HSCA after all), and whatever we may think of Tatum's belated observations, then clearly the two closest witnesses (Benavides and Tatum) to the murder of J.D. Tippit both thought the killer looked like Oswald, even though the brown-shirted Oswald we all think we know was almost certainly in the Texas Theatre at the time.

And, of course, there are all those police radio transmissions, for example:

1:24 --Wanted for investigation for assault to murder on a police officer: A white male; approximately thirty; about five foot eight; slender build; has black hair; a white jacket; a white shirt and dark trousers. The suspect last seen running west on Jefferson from 400 East Jefferson. 

It strikes me as quite a coincidence that Tippit's killer apparently looked like Oswald, although he really couldn't have been the fellow already in the Texas Theatre.  What luck, eh?

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8 minutes ago, Rick McTague said:

David,

Maybe a little OT, but why would the evidence from SA Drain only contain (2) 6.5 cartridge cases from TSBD, when there were supposedly (3)?  Any ideas?  If there were only (2), that means only (2) shots unless I'm missing something here.  Plus, I recall that one of the cases had a dent in it that made it impossible for it to have been fired.  I wonder why that wasn't called out.

Thanks

That's a great question Rick and as usual has a long and complicated answer....  here are the official responses with a bit extra thrown in for effect....

Before me, Mary Rattan, a Notary Public in and for said County, State of Texas, on this day personally appeared Lt. J. C. Day, Dallas Police Department, who, after being by me duly sworn, on oath deposes and says:

When testifying before the President's Commission, I stated I did not remember who returned the two spent 6.5 hulls and envelope to my possession on the night of November 22, 1963. Since returning to Dallas Detective C. N. Dhority has called my attention to the fact he brought the three hulls in the envelope to me and asked me to check them again for fingerprints even though I had checked them when they were picked up on the sixth floor of the Texas School Book Depository about 1:20 p.m. November 22, 1963 by Detective R. M. Sims and myself and placed in a manila envelope. Since talking to Dhority I remember now that he was the one who returned the shells to me about 10:00 p.m. and stated that his office wanted to retain one. He left me two shells and the envelope that Detective Sims and I had previously marked. It was then that I scratched my name on the two shells that were released at 11:45 p.m. Agent Vince Drain along with the rifle and other evidence.

Signed this 7th day of May 1964.
(S) J. C. Day,
J. C. DAY

Before me, Mary Rattan, a Notary Public in and for said County, State of Texas, on this day personally appeared Detective C. N. Dhority, Dallas Police Department, who after being by me duly sworn, on oath deposes and says:

The night of November 22, 1963 Captain J. W. Fritz gave me three 6.5 rifle hulls and told me to give them to Lt. J. C. Day in the Crime Lab. Captain J. W. Fritz told me to have Lt. Day to dust them for prints and return one of the 6.5 hulls to him. I took these three 6.5 rifle hulls to Lt. Day and gave them to him in an envelope which had been previously marked by Det. R. M. Sims. Lt. Day dusted the shells for prints and gave me one back. I returned this 6.5 shell back to Captain J. W. Fritz.

Signed this 12th day of May 1964. 
(S) C.N. Dhority, 
C. N. Dhority.

 

Before me, Mary Rattan, a Notary Public in and for said County, State of Texas, on this day personally appeared J. W. Fritz, Dallas Police Department, who, after being by me duly sworn, on oath deposes and says: I wish to supplement the evidence given by me on Wednesday, April 20, 1964, before the President's Commission on the Assassination of President Kennedy, as follows:

The Spent Rifle Hulls

Three spent rifle hulls were found under the window in the southeast corner of the 6th floor of the Texas School Book Depository Building, Dallas, Texas, on the afternoon of November 22, 1963. When the officers called me to this window, I asked them not to move the shells nor touch them until Lt. Day of the Dallas Police Department could make pictures of the hulls showing where they fell after being ejected from the rifle. After the pictures were made, Detective R. M. Sims of the Homicide Bureau, who was assisting in the search of building, brought the three empty hulls to my office. These were delivered to me in my office at the police headquarters. I kept the hulls in an envelope in my possession and later turned them over to C. N. Dhority of ,the Homicide Bureau and instructed him to take them to Lt. Day of the Identification Bureau. I told Detective Dhority that after these hulls were checked for prints to leave two of them to be delivered to the FBI and to bring one of them to my office to be used for comparison tests here in the office, as we were trying to find where the cartridges had been bought. When Detective Dhority returned from the Identification Bureau, he returned the one empty hull which I kept in my possession. Several days later, I believe on the night of November 27, Vince Drain of the FBI called me at home about one o'clock in the .morning and said that the Commission wanted the other empty hull and a notebook that belonged to Oswald. I came to the office and delivered these things to the FBI. We have Mr. James P. Hosty's receipt for these items in our report.

 

As early as the photos the FBI took of those two empty hulls and one live one there was confusion about the 3rd apparently missing hull.

1206932110_JDoyleWilliamsFBIreportonhisphotographof2emptyhullsatDPD-cropped-withhisnoteabouthullsandnorifle-smallerstill.thumb.jpg.c9d489d4cc5aaaff7f47d1bfce3e774e.jpg

 

1471173337_CE717-envelope2of3hullswereinwhengiventoFBI-smaller.thumb.jpg.1a895bc76305ddad11a3ddeddcad34a0.jpg

Lt Day tries to fill in the gaps with this affidavit

1458895855_DayJune1964affidavitaboutthe3hullsce543-ce544-ce545543hasthecrimpandnochambermarks-smaller.thumb.jpg.269bfe23b6752d2d76b392f1a1803554.jpg

and then finally we have yet another statement from DAY

1673462958_DayAffidavitabouthullswithouthismark2634-001.thumb.gif.a032ac2818432ea1768085bbd0cc0810.gif

 

 

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9 minutes ago, Jim Hargrove said:

It strikes me as quite a coincidence that Tippit's killer apparently looked like Oswald, although he really couldn't have been the fellow already in the Texas Theatre.  What luck, eh?

I like your satirical use of "coincidence" given the number of people who bore a sticking resemblance to little Harvey...

Also, let's remember that without the digital world as it is you couldn't compare these images ad nausea...   If I fleetingly saw Wilson or Vaganov or Wayne shoot someone and then see Oswald on that oh-so-sharp-and-clear 1960's TV, given the news and accusations I'd say it was Oswald too...

you as well?

1551061927_manylookalikes.thumb.jpg.9a7ecb9c98c2ab6cc62fd1bc947322bf.jpg

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1 hour ago, David Josephs said:

I like your satirical use of "coincidence" given the number of people who bore a sticking resemblance to little Harvey...

Also, let's remember that without the digital world as it is you couldn't compare these images ad nausea...   If I fleetingly saw Wilson or Vaganov or Wayne shoot someone and then see Oswald on that oh-so-sharp-and-clear 1960's TV, given the news and accusations I'd say it was Oswald too...

you as well?

1551061927_manylookalikes.thumb.jpg.9a7ecb9c98c2ab6cc62fd1bc947322bf.jpg

Which of those people above do you think appeared all those times at the Sports Drome rifle range, or at the Statler-Hilton, or Morgan’s gun shop, or the Irving Furniture Mart, or Redbird Airport, or hitched a ride with Ralph Leon Yates, always more or less pretending to be or mimic “Lee Harvey Oswald”?  

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Alternatively, the question may be, “how many of these men.”.. not which of them...

if indeed you implied only one.

:cheers

Edit, and thx for not including Mexico City... dj

Edited by David Josephs

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Ah, but as Monty Python almost said, Nobody expects the Hispanic Inquisition!

On all those Oswald lookalikes you offer, let’s think about this for a moment.  If you were dastardly enough to frame a patsy-to-be for the assassination of a city cop and a sitting U.S. president, how many framers would you want running around the city? Each and every one of them would be a potential loose end who could get you caught and and get you burned. Personally, I’d chose just one I thought I could trust to do all the dirty deeds, and preferably one I’d worked with for a long time and knew well.

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If I was a betting man, I'd say Lee, Wilson, Masen and Vaganov cover Dallas, Santa Ana/El Toro, New Orleans and the training camps in Florida...

and would be "involved enough" to keep quiet...  

I truly think we forget how PRIVATE things were unless the FBI wanted to know.. and if that was the case I'd have to assume that ALL the intel agencies would be interested...

As for "loose ends", the threat of the military kept scores quiet for decades... it was the civilian witnesses who were the "loose ends" like Yates, Bolden, and the scores of people accidently suicided or mysteriously killed in oh so innocent ways...

(BTW - do you know hpow to use Google Drive links here?  I paste the "link" address yet the image does not appear????)

What are your thoughts on this?  Accurate?

1672955815_PhotomaybeofoswaldwithsturgisandlorenzinFLtrainingcamp-smaller.thumb.jpg.5b4aea369b4c1ef86e98a85b601aa7be.jpg

 

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A guy from Iowa sent me that picture, with the same labels.  I’ve also seen a short video/film that this still was taken from, which, to me at least, doesn’t help much in the IDs.

The picture DOES seem reminiscent of the Florida crew Marita Lorenz said Jesuit/CIA adventurer Alexander Rorke photographed while Harvey Oswald was in the Soviet Union.  I’ll be that IS Lorenz toward the center.  And the guy next to her in the white shirt does look like Florer. 

I don’t think anyone else is clear enough to even hazard a guess just from the photo, though knowing a bit of the background of Lorenz and photographer Rorke, it does seem at least possible that Sturgis/Fiorini is labeled correctly, and it COULD be LEE Oswald behind him.  Even in the video this was taken from, you can see more of the Oswald candidate behind Sturgis, but I still couldn’t say with any confidence that it was LEE, though Lorenz swore under oath he was with the group, which certainly adds to the possibility.

As for loose ends, John believes, for example, that LEE couldn’t be killed because he had too many American relatives that might react to his death in unpredictable ways.  Would they dare kill Robert, John, Marguerite, the Murrets as well?  If I was in charge of the damnable conspiracy to frame LHO, I’d want as few participants as possible, regardless of how many hit men I had at my command.

For sharing Google Drive docs, you’ve got to watch the permissions.  You could try this:  On the Drive site, right click on document or image, select share→advanced→”public on the web” and then capture the link.  But I’m not sure this lets you display the linked object on a place like this forum, or just gives you a text link that requires an extra step.  Sorry.

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Bill Simpich writes in the Conclusion of "State Secret": "I am convinced that the impersonation of Oswald is a historical fact...." - https://www.maryferrell.org/pages/State_Secret_Conclusion.html

On 11/8/2018 at 4:15 PM, Jim Hargrove said:

... As for loose ends, John [Armstrong] believes, for example, that LEE couldn’t be killed because he had too many American relatives that might react to his death in unpredictable ways....

Regarding the escape of this posited Oswald double from Dallas, Armstrong repeats the story, also recounted by James Douglass, of a supposed landing and subsequent takeoff of a four-engine Air Force C-54 cargo airplane somewhere within the area of the Trinity River, between Dallas and Ft. Worth, in which airplane the double supposedly was flown to Roswell, NM.  I find the under-construction highway-landing scenario implausible, but OTOH, the old Greater Southwest Airport (KGSW, formerly Amon Carter Field) was still operating then; and also located nearby was the former Hensley Field (by 1963 called the Naval Air Station Dallas, currently named the NAS Fort Worth JRB) - both of which could have easily accommodated the C-54.

See: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greater_Southwest_International_Airport

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Naval_Air_Station_Dallas

Robert Griel Vinson, a self-proclaimed witness to this alleged event, would have been 79 years old when the video at the following Web link was published - 5-11-2008 - and even though his memory is foggy as to a few specific details (e.g., a "twin-engine" airplane versus the originally alleged four-engine C-54), I find his timeline and account of that day generally credible.  A C-54, leaving Andrews AFB (ADW) "around 8:30" AM ET, and originally bound for Lowry AFB, near Denver, could have made an un-refueled stop in the Dallas area, and then made it, with a comfortable fuel margin, on to Roswell (Walker) AFB (ROW), by the arrival time cited by Vinson.

See: http://harveyandlee.net/November/November_22.htm

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aZYQiQmXPkk

Edited by Mark Lawson
typographical error correction

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We also have the story of the OTHER Oswald on a flight to Germany at the same time our Oswald is on a ship to France....

At this point I think the existence of doubles for Oswald is established....  as Jim eludes though... was it just Lee or a handful of men working together..

Personally - I think Lee had help

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1 minute ago, Mark Lawson said:

Jim Garrison, October 1967: "... [A] member of [the JFK assassination] group is an individual who deliberately impersonated Lee Oswald before the assassination in order to incriminate him: we believe we know his identity...."

From: http://www.maebrussell.com/Garrison/Garrison Playboy Intvw 1.html

I'm pretty sure he was talking about Masen in this context Mark....

A number of authority figures including Ellsworth I believe had their eyes on Masen for that role.

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1 hour ago, Mark Lawson said:

Jim Garrison, October 1967: "... [A] member of [the JFK assassination] group is an individual who deliberately impersonated Lee Oswald before the assassination in order to incriminate him: we believe we know his identity...."

From: http://www.maebrussell.com/Garrison/Garrison Playboy Intvw 1.html

Thanks, Mark,

In On the Trail... Jim Garrison wrote that he suspected Kerry Thornley was the Oswald impersonator referenced in his Playboy interview above.  As always with Mr. Garrison, it was a well-informed guess.  Thornley had known one of the Oswalds all the way back in the Marines; Thornley moved to New Orleans, if memory serves, toward the end of August 1963, barely in time to be involved in the final sheep-dipping of HARVEY Oswald.

Under close examination, however, Thornley presents all sorts of problems.  You could write a major chapter about him, but I think, for once, Jim Garrison was incorrect. There are several clues to this in the New Orleans DA’s own documents (which aren’t so easy to find online, and so I’m including one below from the online Armstrong Collection at Baylor University). Look near the bottom of the page.  This is contemporaneous material.

Thornley.jpg


 

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The fellow at the far left position in that photo looks the most like David Ferrie imo.

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