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Jim Hargrove

Two Dallas cops were involved in the pre-arranged murder of Tippit...

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Just to add some additional info to these scenarios:

Per John Martino (from Larry Hancock's EXCELLENT "Someone Would Have Talked")

Oswald was part of the plan, but not a shooter and was supposed to meet an exile contact at the Texas Theater. Oswald's understanding was that he was being taken out of the country. However, the actual plan was to kill him -- apparently outside the country, and very possibly in a location and fashion that would tie him to Cuba and Castro. The killing of Tippit was definitely not part of the plan and indeed aborted the contact. One of the shooters was actually waiting in the Texas Theater to contact Oswald and was released by the police after Oswald's arrest.

Tom

Tom,

To me, that sounds like a rumor that might have been circulating among individuals in the exile community. Though the rumor (if that is all it was) does contain a fact not widely known early on -- that being the guy in the theater who was released by the DPD -- which is interesting to say the least.

But I don't know about the assertion that the Tippit killing wasn't part of the plan. Maybe it wasn't part of the JFK assassination plan, but it certainly appears to have been part of somebody's plan.

EDIT: I see that David Andrews already brought up the point of my second paragraph..

Edited by Sandy Larsen

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John Pic (Oswald’s half brother) told the Warren Commission that some photographs of “Lee Harvey Oswald” were accurate, while he didn’t recognize the “Oswald” in two others pictures, including the famous FPCC charade in New Orleans.

How could John Pic possibly recognize as his brother the Oswald in custody, but not the Oswald in the FPCC pictures? They look the same to me. Don't they look the same to most people?

Was John Pic ever asked if he recognized the Oswald in custody? By the WC or researchers?

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To untangle the legend of “Lee Harvey Oswald” on November 22, 1963, you really have to untangle the legend dating back at least a decade earlier. For just a few examples….
In 1953 two “Lee Harvey Oswalds” simultaneously attended Beauregard Junior High School in New Orleans and Public School 44 in New York City. J. Edgar Hoover and Alan Dulles missed the conflicting records, and they are published in the Warren volumes. (Within hours after the assassination, the FBI was confiscating most of the school and teen-age employment records of “Lee Harvey Oswald,” because Hoover was aware of the “Oswald Project.”)
John Pic (Oswald’s half brother) told the Warren Commission that some photographs of “Lee Harvey Oswald” were accurate, while he didn’t recognize the “Oswald” in two others pictures, including the famous FPCC charade in New Orleans.
While one “Lee Harvey Oswald” was being treated for VD in Japan, another “Lee Harvey Oswald” was en route and stationed in Taiwan.
When the one “Lee Harvey Oswald” we all think we know was in Russia, another was involved in all kinds of things here, including the well-documented Bolton Ford incident, working with anti-Castro Cubans in Miami and the Everglades, even filling out forms and taking tests at the Texas Employment Commission.
The “Lee Harvey Oswald” we think we know didn’t have a car and couldn’t drive, but the other had a valid Texas driver’s license.
In the weeks prior to the assassination of JFK, while “Lee Harvey Oswald” was working at the Book Depository, another “Lee Harvey Oswald” was traveling around the Dallas area setting up his counterpart as the patsy for the JFK hit. These activities are well known: numerous appearances at the Sports Drome Rifle Range, the Downtown Lincoln Mercury dealership, Morgan’s Gun Shop, Dial Ryder’s gun shop, the Southland Building, hitchhiking with “curtain rods” with Ralph Yates, and so on.
So….
Right after the assassination of JFK, someone who looked like “Lee Harvey Oswald” shot and killed J.D. Tippit near 10th and Patton, while the fellow we know today as “Lee Harvey Oswald” was already sitting in the Texas Theater.
There were two “Lee Harvey Oswalds” active on November 22, 1963, but he original “Oswald Project” was created at least a decade earlier to give a Russian speaking youth (Harvey Oswald) an American identity and the birth certificate of American-born Lee Harvey Oswald (Lee Oswald). With that feat accomplished, Russian-speaking Harvey could be sent to Russia as a spy who secretly understood Russian. And that’s exactly what happened.
In the summer of 1963, the “Oswald Project” got entangled in the plot to assassinate JFK, which was a U.S. intelligence operation from start to finish. Lee framed Harvey for the hit. His final act was shooting J.D. Tippit and leading cops to the Texas Theater, where Harvey, as instructed, was already waiting.

Jim,

It has been established to my satisfaction that there was a Lee Harvey Oswald project. The part I have a hard time believing is that the Oswald you and John Armstrong refer to as "LEE Oswald" -- the one who was recruited as a child -- just happened to have become a murderer as an adult.

To me it seems far more likely that there were multiple Oswalds, some of whom were given that assignments as an adult. And at least one of whom was willing to kill and set up people.

Another possibility is that an agent was chosen to do some of the dirty work, based upon his looks being similar to HARVEY Oswald's looks, and yet he wasn't a member of the Oswald project.

I wish that in his writings John Armstrong would have had three Oswald characters, one referred to as "HARVEY Oswald" (the one who spoke Russian), another as "LEE Oswald" (the one recruited at a young age), and a third as "AGENT Oswald" (any of the unidentified members of the Oswald lookalike project). If John had done this, wouldn't the man who killed Tippit and the man who exited the rear of the theater each be labeled "AGENT Oswald?" Because there is no evidence linking these two to LEE Oswald, right?

That is a very good question IMO... is there any evidence at all that LEE Oswald was involved in the assassination plot?

P.S. I haven't read all of "Harvey and Lee" yet.

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Just to add some additional info to these scenarios:

Per John Martino (from Larry Hancock's EXCELLENT "Someone Would Have Talked")

Oswald was part of the plan, but not a shooter and was supposed to meet an exile contact at the Texas Theater. Oswald's understanding was that he was being taken out of the country. However, the actual plan was to kill him -- apparently outside the country, and very possibly in a location and fashion that would tie him to Cuba and Castro. The killing of Tippit was definitely not part of the plan and indeed aborted the contact. One of the shooters was actually waiting in the Texas Theater to contact Oswald and was released by the police after Oswald's arrest.

Tom

Tom,

To me, that sounds like a rumor that might have been circulating among individuals in the exile community. Though the rumor (if that is all it was) does contain a fact not widely known early on -- that being the guy in the theater who was released by the DPD -- which is interesting to say the least.

But I don't know about the assertion that the Tippit killing wasn't part of the plan. Maybe it wasn't part of the JFK assassination plan, but it certainly appears to have been part of somebody's plan.

EDIT: I see that David Andrews already brought up the point of my second paragraph..

Sandy,

If you read the book, I doubt you'd dismiss John Martino as giving birth to a rumor. Do you know John Martin's history? Immediately after the assassination, Martino was a visible face for the 'LHO killed JFK for Castro' gambit. But many years later, he told people what Larry Hancock reported. What was his motivation to do this?

As far as "who" had Tippit in their plans, it doesn't mean that Martino's people were planning it. So he would not know about someone elses plans. Compartmentalization. Martino is CLEAR that he was never privy to ALL of the plan. Just the part he was personally involved in. This is another reason that makes him credible.

Tom

Edited by Tom Neal

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Just to add some additional info to these scenarios:

Per John Martino (from Larry Hancock's EXCELLENT "Someone Would Have Talked")

Oswald was part of the plan, but not a shooter and was supposed to meet an exile contact at the Texas Theater. Oswald's understanding was that he was being taken out of the country. However, the actual plan was to kill him -- apparently outside the country, and very possibly in a location and fashion that would tie him to Cuba and Castro. The killing of Tippit was definitely not part of the plan and indeed aborted the contact. One of the shooters was actually waiting in the Texas Theater to contact Oswald and was released by the police after Oswald's arrest.

Tom

Tom,

To me, that sounds like a rumor that might have been circulating among individuals in the exile community. Though the rumor (if that is all it was) does contain a fact not widely known early on -- that being the guy in the theater who was released by the DPD -- which is interesting to say the least.

But I don't know about the assertion that the Tippit killing wasn't part of the plan. Maybe it wasn't part of the JFK assassination plan, but it certainly appears to have been part of somebody's plan.

EDIT: I see that David Andrews already brought up the point of my second paragraph..

Sandy,

If you read the book, I doubt you'd dismiss John Martino as giving birth to a rumor. Do you know John Martin's history? Immediately after the assassination, Martino was a visible face for the 'LHO killed JFK for Castro' gambit. But many years later, he told people what Larry Hancock reported. What was his motivation to do this?

As far as "who" had Tippit in their plans, it doesn't mean that Martino's people were planning it. So he would not know about someone elses plans. Compartmentalization. Martino is CLEAR that he was never privy to ALL of the plan. Just the part he was personally involved in. This is another reason that makes him credible.

Tom

Tom,

I haven't read Larry's Hancock's book. I've read just a little about Martino on the Spartacus Educational site. From what I read, it seems clear that Martino had connections with the CIA and Cuban exile community. Not sure if he was paid by the CIA or if he volunteered out of hatred toward Castro for imprisoning him. I take his wife's word for it when she said that her husband claimed JFK was to be killed in Dallas. Though I think that that was an educated guess on Martino's part. Compartmentalization should have precluded him from knowing for a fact that JFK was being targeted.

When I read that he was (initially) claiming Castro was behind the assassination, I figured he did so because he hated Castro. But perhaps he was paid to say that.

Likely Martino quit making that claim when he (or others) saw that it was not eliciting the desired response from the U.S. government.

You ask what his motivation would have been for telling the story that Larry Hancock wrote about. Well, if I had to pick between 1) he actually knew that stuff to be true, or 2) he was merely telling what his theory was, I'd have to choose #2. Again because of compartmentalization.

I will admit, though, that I am by no means convinced of this. Because compartmentalization doesn't always work. In fact, I would expect it to fail -- at least to some extent -- in the case of non-career types working for the CIA, like the Cuban exiles and the Mafia.

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That is a very good question IMO... is there any evidence at all that LEE Oswald was involved in the assassination plot?

P.S. I haven't read all of "Harvey and Lee" yet.

There ABSOLUTELY is evidence that American-born Lee Oswald was involved in the assassination plot. One of the clearest links was his relationship with Jack Ruby, who had a far more important role in the murder of JFK than most people realize.

Lee Oswald's relationship with Jack Ruby may date back at least to 1961 (when Harvey Oswald was in Russia). There are reports that both men were involved in anti-Castro activities around the Florida Keys.

During the summer and early fall of 1963 (while Harvey was still in New Orleans) Ruby and Lee were seen together by many people in Dallas and the vicinity. For example, from John's write-up on Jack Ruby:

In the summer of 1963 Dorothy Marcum was dating Ruby and her aunt worked for Ruby. Dorothy told the FBI that LEE Oswald worked for Ruby during June and July and the two men definitely knew each other.
Ruby was interviewing Francis Irene Hise for a job as a waitress when a young man entered the Carousel Club and Ruby said “Hi, Ozzie” to the young man. After she was hired Miss Hise served drinks to “Ozzie," whom she recognized after the assassination as LHO.
Another employee, Clyde Malcolm Limbough, worked for Ruby three years and saw Oswald in Ruby's office on several occasions.
Helen Kay Smith (“Pixie Lynn”), who worked at the Carousel, told the Dallas Police that she saw Ruby and Oswald together on several occasions.
Other employees of Ruby who saw Oswald in the Carousel Club were William Crowe, Wally Weston, Dixie Lynn, and Kathy Kay.
Robert Roy was Ruby's auto mechanic and said that Oswald used to drop off Ruby's car for repairs. Roy then drove Oswald back to Ruby's “burlesque house.”
Ruby parked his car at Gibbs Auto Service and occasionally allowed friends and associates to borrow his car. Leon Woods was the manager of Gibbs and kept a “check-in and check-out” book that listed the names of people who took Ruby's car from the garage. Mr. Woods gave the book to the FBI following the assassination of President Kennedy, which the FBI later denied.
During the last week of July (1963) Western Union employee Marshall Hicks delivered several telegrams addressed to “LEE Harvey Oswald” at the Rotary Apartments, 1501-1503 W. 7th St. in Dallas (while HARVEY and Marina were living in New Orleans). The FBI made no attempt to locate copies of these telegrams.
DPD Detective H.M. Hart, of the Criminal Intelligence Division, received information from a Dallas Police confidential informant who knew Ruby. The informant said that in September (1963) Ruby rented an apartment at 223 S. Ewing for LEE Oswald.
Here's a photo of what certainly appears to be LEE Oswald enjoying the talent at Ruby's Carousel Club:
LEE_at_CC.jpg
Ruby may well have been keeping tabs on HARVEY Oswald as well. Also from John's write-up on Ruby:

In October, a three-man musical "combo" group was performing in Ruby's club that consisted of John Anderson (trumpet), Bill Willis (drums), and William Simmons (piano). The small group worked only four hours a day, from 9 PM to 1 AM. Curiously, and without explanation, Willis and Simmons lived fifteen miles away from the Carousel Club, in a house located at 2530 W. 5th in Irving, TX., just 200 feet west on the opposite side of the street from Ruth Paine (2515 W. 5th). When Ruby shot HARVEY Oswald, Nancy Powell (Tammi True) told the WC that she saw Bill Willis (drummer) near the police station. Neither Willis nor Simmons were interviewed by the WC.

Edited by Jim Hargrove

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That is a very good question IMO... is there any evidence at all that LEE Oswald was involved in the assassination plot?

P.S. I haven't read all of "Harvey and Lee" yet.

There ABSOLUTELY is evidence that American-born Lee Oswald was involved in the assassination plot. One of the clearest links was his relationship with Jack Ruby, who had a far more important role in the murder of JFK than most people realize.

Lee Oswald's relationship with Jack Ruby may date back at least to 1961 (when Harvey Oswald was in Russia). There are reports that both men were involved in anti-Castro activities around the Florida Keys.

During the summer and early fall of 1963 (while Harvey was still in New Orleans) Ruby and Lee were seen together by many people in Dallas and the vicinity. For example, from John's write-up on Jack Ruby:

In the summer of 1963 Dorothy Marcum was dating Ruby and her aunt worked for Ruby. Dorothy told the FBI that LEE Oswald worked for Ruby during June and July and the two men definitely knew each other.
Ruby was interviewing Francis Irene Hise for a job as a waitress when a young man entered the Carousel Club and Ruby said “Hi, Ozzie” to the young man. After she was hired Miss Hise served drinks to “Ozzie," whom she recognized after the assassination as LHO.
Another employee, Clyde Malcolm Limbough, worked for Ruby three years and saw Oswald in Ruby's office on several occasions.
Helen Kay Smith (“Pixie Lynn”), who worked at the Carousel, told the Dallas Police that she saw Ruby and Oswald together on several occasions.
Other employees of Ruby who saw Oswald in the Carousel Club were William Crowe, Wally Weston, Dixie Lynn, and Kathy Kay.
Robert Roy was Ruby's auto mechanic and said that Oswald used to drop off Ruby's car for repairs. Roy then drove Oswald back to Ruby's “burlesque house.”
Ruby parked his car at Gibbs Auto Service and occasionally allowed friends and associates to borrow his car. Leon Woods was the manager of Gibbs and kept a “check-in and check-out” book that listed the names of people who took Ruby's car from the garage. Mr. Woods gave the book to the FBI following the assassination of President Kennedy, which the FBI later denied.
During the last week of July (1963) Western Union employee Marshall Hicks delivered several telegrams addressed to “LEE Harvey Oswald” at the Rotary Apartments, 1501-1503 W. 7th St. in Dallas (while HARVEY and Marina were living in New Orleans). The FBI made no attempt to locate copies of these telegrams.
DPD Detective H.M. Hart, of the Criminal Intelligence Division, received information from a Dallas Police confidential informant who knew Ruby. The informant said that in September (1963) Ruby rented an apartment at 223 S. Ewing for LEE Oswald.
Here's a photo of what certainly appears to be LEE Oswald enjoying the talent at Ruby's Carousel Club:
LEE_at_CC.jpg
Ruby may well have been keeping tabs on HARVEY Oswald as well. Also from John's write-up on Ruby:

In October, a three-man musical "combo" group was performing in Ruby's club that consisted of John Anderson (trumpet), Bill Willis (drums), and William Simmons (piano). The small group worked only four hours a day, from 9 PM to 1 AM. Curiously, and without explanation, Willis and Simmons lived fifteen miles away from the Carousel Club, in a house located at 2530 W. 5th in Irving, TX., just 200 feet west on the opposite side of the street from Ruth Paine (2515 W. 5th). When Ruby shot HARVEY Oswald, Nancy Powell (Tammi True) told the WC that she saw Bill Willis (drummer) near the police station. Neither Willis nor Simmons were interviewed by the WC.

But Jim, isn't it true that in every one of the cases you cite, the person identified as LEE Oswald could very well have been yet another Oswald? A third member of the Oswald look-alike project. I believe they could have been. Prove me wrong.

Though I've got to hand it to you, the guy in the Carousel Club photo certainly does look like LEE Oswald. The hairline in particular stands out as being identical. Somebody posted this photo elsewhere and asked if the guy looked like Oswald, and I wondered how anybody could think that. But had the person asked if he looked like the LEE Oswald character, I would have said yes.

BTW, when I carefully compare photos of LEE with photos of HARVEY, I can spot many individual features that look the same or similar. But when I compare the faces as a whole, they look nothing alike. Not to me, anyway.

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To me, that sounds like a rumor that might have been circulating among individuals in the exile community.

I haven't read Larry's Hancock's book. I've read just a little about Martino on the Spartacus Educational site. From what I read, it seems clear that Martino had connections with the CIA and Cuban exile community.

Likely Martino quit making that claim when he (or others) saw that it was not eliciting the desired response from the U.S. government.

Sandy,

Martino told his wife that they were going to kill JFK when he went to Dallas. The day of the assassination he had his son stay home from school for no stated reason. He then told the son to watch tv and let him know if anything important happened. When the son told him JFK had been shot the son says his father turned as white as a ghost. To me that indicates personal involvement, not an educated guess.

Martino spent 3 years in Castro's jail, and blamed JFK for allowing Castro to live, BOP, etc,. At least for the Cubans involved, blaming Castro was an integral part of the plot. Martino told his business partner, his lawyer, and his family. They did not talk until after his death, and he never went public with the truth. The press simply stopped reporting that Castro did it for many reasons, not because Martino stopped talking about it.

Tom

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John Pic (Oswald’s half brother) told the Warren Commission that some photographs of “Lee Harvey Oswald” were accurate, while he didn’t recognize the “Oswald” in two others pictures, including the famous FPCC charade in New Orleans.

How could John Pic possibly recognize as his brother the Oswald in custody, but not the Oswald in the FPCC pictures? They look the same to me. Don't they look the same to most people?

Was John Pic ever asked if he recognized the Oswald in custody? By the WC or researchers?

The Oswald in custody and the Oswald of the FPCC charade were the same person--Russian-speaking HARVEY, who was not related to John Pic. Pic identified pictures of his real half brother, American-born LEE Oswald, but declined to identify the only two pictures he was shown of HARVEY (the other picture was the famous Bronx Zoo photo of young HARVEY). The WC attorneys had no curiosity whatsoever about Pic's revelation. They knew they were tiptoeing through an evidentiary mine field.

John Armstrong tried to interview John Pic on the telephone, but Pic merely said that he stood by his Warren Commission testimony and had nothing else to say.

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Just to add some additional info to these scenarios:

Per John Martino (from Larry Hancock's EXCELLENT "Someone Would Have Talked")

Oswald was part of the plan, but not a shooter and was supposed to meet an exile contact at the Texas Theater. Oswald's understanding was that he was being taken out of the country. However, the actual plan was to kill him -- apparently outside the country, and very possibly in a location and fashion that would tie him to Cuba and Castro. The killing of Tippit was definitely not part of the plan and indeed aborted the contact. One of the shooters was actually waiting in the Texas Theater to contact Oswald and was released by the police after Oswald's arrest.

Tom

Tom,

To me, that sounds like a rumor that might have been circulating among individuals in the exile community. Though the rumor (if that is all it was) does contain a fact not widely known early on -- that being the guy in the theater who was released by the DPD -- which is interesting to say the least.

But I don't know about the assertion that the Tippit killing wasn't part of the plan. Maybe it wasn't part of the JFK assassination plan, but it certainly appears to have been part of somebody's plan.

EDIT: I see that David Andrews already brought up the point of my second paragraph..

Sandy,

If you read the book, I doubt you'd dismiss John Martino as giving birth to a rumor. Do you know John Martin's history? Immediately after the assassination, Martino was a visible face for the 'LHO killed JFK for Castro' gambit. But many years later, he told people what Larry Hancock reported. What was his motivation to do this?

As far as "who" had Tippit in their plans, it doesn't mean that Martino's people were planning it. So he would not know about someone elses plans. Compartmentalization. Martino is CLEAR that he was never privy to ALL of the plan. Just the part he was personally involved in. This is another reason that makes him credible.

Tom

Since Martino wasn't in Dallas practicing skulduggery on the 22nd, it's possible plans may have been changed, or were forced to be altered and improvised.

If there was a second Oswald, killing him outside Dallas would have been more desirable than killing the TSBD Oswald in Dallas ASAP, and letting the paper legend of his politics, defection, and Mexico City antics be witness against him.

From his removed position, Martino may have conflated the fates of the two Oswalds - one dead and anonymous outside Dallas, the other dead in Dallas and a monument to the DPD's vigilance and patriotism.*

*Speaking of which, I can't shake my whimsy (is it only whimsy?) over the TSBD Oswald being nearly rubbed out at a theater, as John Dillinger was. That setup feels like the mythic obsession of a certain ancient agency boss... You know the phrase, "His fingerprints are all over this"?

Edited by David Andrews

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John Pic (Oswald’s half brother) told the Warren Commission that some photographs of “Lee Harvey Oswald” were accurate, while he didn’t recognize the “Oswald” in two others pictures, including the famous FPCC charade in New Orleans.

How could John Pic possibly recognize as his brother the Oswald in custody, but not the Oswald in the FPCC pictures? They look the same to me. Don't they look the same to most people?

Was John Pic ever asked if he recognized the Oswald in custody? By the WC or researchers?

The Oswald in custody and the Oswald of the FPCC charade were the same person--Russian-speaking HARVEY, who was not related to John Pic. Pic identified pictures of his real half brother, American-born LEE Oswald, but declined to identify the only two pictures he was shown of HARVEY (the other picture was the famous Bronx Zoo photo of young HARVEY). The WC attorneys had no curiosity whatsoever about Pic's revelation. They knew they were tiptoeing through an evidentiary mine field.

John Armstrong tried to interview John Pic on the telephone, but Pic merely said that he stood by his Warren Commission testimony and had nothing else to say.

I was a little careless in my wording. I should have referred to the Oswald in custody as John Pic's supposed brother. Supposed half-brother, to be more precise.

I think that the Oswald we see in the FPCC photos look just like the Oswald who was in custody. It's unfathomable to me that the half-brother of the Oswald in custody wouldn't recognize the same half-brother in the FPCC photos. That John Pic didn't supports what I already believe, that John Pic was not the half-brother of the Oswald in custody.

I wonder what happened to LEE Oswald after HARVEY was killed. He could no longer have officially existed. His family could not have talked about him as though he were still alive, except among themselves. What a strange situation to find oneself in.

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To me, that sounds like a rumor that might have been circulating among individuals in the exile community.

I haven't read Larry's Hancock's book. I've read just a little about Martino on the Spartacus Educational site. From what I read, it seems clear that Martino had connections with the CIA and Cuban exile community.

Likely Martino quit making that claim when he (or others) saw that it was not eliciting the desired response from the U.S. government.

Sandy,

Martino told his wife that they were going to kill JFK when he went to Dallas. The day of the assassination he had his son stay home from school for no stated reason. He then told the son to watch tv and let him know if anything important happened. When the son told him JFK had been shot the son says his father turned as white as a ghost. To me that indicates personal involvement, not an educated guess.

Martino spent 3 years in Castro's jail, and blamed JFK for allowing Castro to live, BOP, etc,. At least for the Cubans involved, blaming Castro was an integral part of the plot. Martino told his business partner, his lawyer, and his family. They did not talk until after his death, and he never went public with the truth. The press simply stopped reporting that Castro did it for many reasons, not because Martino stopped talking about it.

Tom

Tom,

By "educated guess" I meant that Martino wasn't actually told that JFK would be killed, but rather he figured it out based upon what he learned in his dealings. I read that his involvement was that of paymaster... actually more like a courier of payments (I cannot recall the term used to describe his role). That would have put him in a position of potentially learning a lot, depending on how much each of his payees let slip. He could have pieced things together and concluded that JFK was being targeted.

Edited by Sandy Larsen

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By "educated guess" I meant that Martino wasn't actually told that JFK would be killed, but rather he figured it out based upon what he learned in his dealings. I read that his involvement was that of paymaster... actually more like a courier of payments (I cannot recall the term used to describe his role). That would have put him in a position of potentially learning a lot, depending on how much each of his payees let slip. He could have pieced things together and concluded that JFK was being targeted.

Why are you so certain that Martino wasn't "told" that JFK was going to be assassinated? He was closely associated with David Morales and his group who surely knew. Is it because you believe Martino was wrong about JDT's murder being planned?

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Since Martino wasn't in Dallas practicing skulduggery on the 22nd, it's possible plans may have been changed, or were forced to be altered and improvised.

David,

This is my opinion, also. Clearly JDT was up to something with his visit to the record store and the phone call just prior to his murder. It appears that he was supposed to do something, or prevent something at that time, but failed to do it. Perhaps he was supposed to kill Oswald, or take control of LHO as part of the setup to tie Castro into the assassination, and bring him to where he was to be killed, but a suspicious LHO eluded him. With LHO unexpectedly 'on the loose' he could NOT be taken alive. That risk was unacceptable, so DPD needed an excuse to murder LHO rather than apprehend him.

Whatever JDT was supposed to do, but didn't do, IMO required him to be silenced. Possibly he could no longer be trusted. DPD could put out the word that LHO the 'cop-killer' was not to be taken alive. The way it all went down at the theater, LHO thought that he would be shot - and IMO he would have been if not for his yelling "I am not resisting arrest!" Again, just my opinion, but I don't think their desire to make LHO a cop-killer was sufficient to sacrifice JDT had he fulfilled his assignment.

One of many alternate scenarios would be that despite plans of others, DPD had no intention of allowing LHO to escape from Dallas. Not good for their reputation. So although this was "not supposed to happen" as far as Martino knew, DPD may have planned JDT's death all along.

Edited by Tom Neal

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