Two Dallas cops were involved in the pre-arranged murder of Tippit...

[Jim Hargrove]

Additionally, I have found 5 statements by researchers that the ambulance log sheet is nowhere to be found. Butler et al agree that it took about a minute for the ambulance to get to the shooting scene and another four minutes to get to the hospital, but I am unable to find a statement from them or Hughes as to what time the ambulance departed or arrived at the shooting.

That may speak volumes, eh?

Of course, the only REALLY important time here is the time of the shooting, which is almost certainly 1:06. This does NOT give LHO enough time to be the shooter.

It certainly doesn't seem to give sufficient time for that fellow in the brown shirt who left the rooming house on N. Beckley and ended up being arrested at the Texas Theater. But what about that other fellow, the guy in the white shirt who DID shoot Tippit? A number of witnesses, including Benavides (the closest) thought he WAS Oswald. He had a similar appearance, as can be determined by the police descriptions.

Are we to believe that it was just a coincidence that the fellow in the white shirt who shot Tippit looked similar to the fellow in the brown shirt arrested at the Texas Theater? Yet another coincidence?? Or is it time for researchers to begin to seek another explanation?

[Tom Neal]

hsca record 180-10107-10180 is the HSCA interview with J. Clayton Butler, the ambulance driver.

Does anyone know where to find this record?

Tom

I've spent several days looking for this too, also without success. It used to be EASY to find HSCA testimony online.

I thought for sure it would be found here:

http://aarclibrary.org/publib/contents/hsca/contents_hsca_vols.htm

But after searching the contents of each volume and doing a Google site search of aarclibrary.org, it simply doesn't seem to be there. Very frustrating!

Jim,

I spent considerable time looking at that site, also. Could it be that this testimony which resides in the archives simply wasn't published in the Report? Could it be a recording that was never transcribed?

Even more annoying is that Bugliosi and Myers state it as a reference, so they had access to it. I don't trust a thing EITHER one of them says in their books!

[Sandy Larsen]

Like others here, I currently am of the opinion that the killing occurred at 1:06 PM and that officials wanted it to be 1:15. But I don't know why they wouldn't have chosen the more convenient time of 1:16. Convenient because it requires the change of just one digit in the records... from 1:06 to 1:16. This makes me wonder if there is a significance to the time 1:15 PM. Perhaps 1:15 is when the ambulance arrived at the hospital. If a doctor saw bullet holes in Tippit's head and got no pulse, maybe he would pronounce Tippit dead on arrival.

Tom pointed out the DPD report where police officers claim they followed Tippit's body into the hospital and saw the docs trying to resuscitate him. Anything from DPD is suspect in my opinion, and I have a hard time believing the docs would have even considered resuscitating an obviously dead man.

In this report, ambulance driver Clayton Butler is quoted as saying the following to HSCA interviewers:

"I was on the scene one minute or less. From the time we received the call in our dispatch office until Officer Tippit was pronounced dead at Methodist Hospital was approximately four minutes."

This sure makes it sound like Tippit was pronounced dead on arrival.

I also get the feeling that Clayton Butler has a tendency to exaggerate on his timing. Four minutes to get the call, run down the stairs, drive two blocks, have trouble calling in with his "mayday," load the body, drive to the hospital, and unload the body? Well, maybe, if the hospital is nearby. Regardless, I do believe that they did work fast.

At the moment I'm trying to reconcile those witnesses whose statements suggest an early arrival of the ambulance, and those who suggest a later arrival. The early call to DPD by Mrs. Frank Wright and the quickness of the ambulance as reported by Clayton Butler suggest an early arrival (1:08 to 1:10), whereas the statement of T.F. Bowley requires a later arrival (1:12 to 1:14) if he and his watch are to be trusted.

If T.F Bowley is right, then even the official time of death for Tippit, 1:15, becomes unlikely. He said that the ambulance arrived a few minutes after his call. Well, if he really did arrive at 1:10, spent 1 minute trying to help Tippit and making his call on Tippit's radio, and then saw the ambulance arrive, say, 3 minutes later, then the arrival time of the ambulance would be 1:14. Then if it took just a minute to load the ambulance, and then three minutes to drive it to the hospital, the arrival time would be 1:18. Making the 1:15 time of death impossible by three minutes.

I think that T.F. Bowley must have been mistaken about the time. His watch could easily have been off by a minute. Maybe two. It's not unreasonable to consider that he might have rounded off to the nearest 5-minutes, especially if his watch was off that number by only a minute. It sounds even more reasonable in light of the fact that he states another time in his statement that is consistent with a 5-minute round-off. (He picked up his daughter at 12:55.) In other words, maybe the correct time was 1:08, his watched showed 1:09, and he rounded it off to 1:10.

P.S. I'm still working on my timeline in Post 235.

Edited July 10, 2016 by Sandy Larsen

[Sandy Larsen]

Tippit Scene Timeline (with Virginia Davis and the first arriving police officers)

1:06 - Tippit is shot.

1:07 - Witness Mrs. Frank Wright calls in the shooting.

1:07 - Virginia Davis and her-sister-in-law arrive at the door, and Helen Markham screams to them that Tippit is dead and to call the police. They see the killer cross their yard and disappear around the corner of their house. [Time: Based on the above Timing Analysis.]

1:08 - The Davises call the police and then step out into their yard. They walk over and see Tippit's body lying on the ground. [Time: Based on the above Timing Analysis.]

Sandy,

IMO you have the Davises arriving at JTD's car a little too soon. They were both lying down when they heard the first shot. They didn't suspect gunfire until they heard the second shot. They put on their shoes and then proceeded to the front door in time to see the shooter cross their lawn and disappear around the corner. They then called the police, which would have taken a minute or two. Do people react immediately in a shocking situation that they've never experienced? I doubt events transpired as quickly as even they may think... Based upon their activities, I'd put their arrival time at JTD's car at 1:10 at the earliest.

Tom,

The problem with a 1:10 (or later) arrival of the Davises at Tippit's car is that they have to arrive there before them ambulance does. Or at the latest, when the ambulance arrives. Because they say they walked over to the body, IIRC.

To do what you want, I'd have to have the ambulance arrive later than 1:10. It's hard to do that because Mrs. Frank Wright says she called DPD right away and that the ambulance arrived within a minute. That would make the ambulance arrive at 1:08 or 1:09. So I'm already stretching the ambulance arrival time out by a couple minutes.

It seems to me that Virgina must have put her shoes on quickly, and arrived at the door fairly quickly. Because the shooter was still there at the scene when they opened the door. And I think they would have called the police quickly simply because Helen Markham told them to. The Davises didn't have to think... they just had to act. I gave them two minutes from the time of the shots to the time they see the shooter disappears around the corner. That doesn't seem too fast to me.

[Sandy Larsen]

Timeline (including police officers and Virgina Davis)

1:11 - Croy arrives and sees Tippit being loaded into the ambulance. Croy talks to a "hysterical" witness, probably Helen Markham. Not likely Markham. Croy said he talked with a woman who was "watering her lawn" or something similar--hardly the description of excited Markham.

Jim,

Croy didn't even know where this female witness lived. Somehow he got the impression she was doing work in her yard. And he used "watering the lawn" as an example of what she might be doing. But he backed off in this testimony in the end.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you know the name of the woman you talked to across the street?

Mr. CROY. I don't recall. I think she lived across the street. She was standing out in front watering her yard or doing something in her yard.

Mr. GRIFFIN. But you have the impression that she lived across the street, in a house across the street?

Mr. CROY. I believe she did. I am not sure either, or it was in the neighborhood and she was there in the yard. She was across the street when it happened.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Well, you stated that she was watering her yard?

Mr. CROY. Or something. She was standing in the yard doing something.

Mr. GRIFFIN. But the first thing you indicated was, she had been watering her yard? Apparently that was something that stuck with you from, of course, talking with her?

Mr. CROY. I don't remember what she said she was doing. She was doing something in the yard, and I presume that is where she lived was across the street.

And the woman does fit the Helen Markham profile, including the "hysterical" characterization:

Mr. GRIFFIN. What did she tell you?

Mr. CROY. She told me that she saw Tippit get out of the car, and I don't recall, I think she said he stepped back a couple of foot and shot him and then ran. She was pretty hysterical at that particular time.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did she tell you where she first saw Oswald?

Mr. CROY. I don't recall whether she did or not. There was, as I recall, there was 2 people who saw it. No; 3. A man in a, taxicab driver. However, she was the main eyewitness, as far as I could make out. She saw the actual shooting.

Helen Markham is the only known female eyewitness to the actual shooting, and the only woman known to be outside at the time.

Furthermore, Croy testified that the woman (Markham, I'm sure) talked both to him and some other officers. The other officers were likely Poe and Jez, who arrive a minute or two after Croy. Poe testified that he interviewed Helen Markham first.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How long did you talk with her?

Mr. CROY. Oh, a good 5 or 10 minutes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Were there any other officers there with you when you were talking with her?

Mr. CROY. Yes; and no. I talked to her, and then they talked to her, and then I talked to her, and just after I located a witness, the squad did get there.

[Tom Neal]

IMO you have the Davises arriving at JTD's car a little too soon. They were both lying down when they heard the first shot. They didn't suspect gunfire until they heard the second shot. They put on their shoes and then proceeded to the front door in time to see the shooter cross their lawn and disappear around the corner. They then called the police, which would have taken a minute or two. Do people react immediately in a shocking situation that they've never experienced? I doubt events transpired as quickly as even they may think... Based upon their activities, I'd put their arrival time at JTD's car at 1:10 at the earliest.

The problem with a 1:10 (or later) arrival of the Davises at Tippit's car is that they have to arrive there before them ambulance does. Or at the latest, when the ambulance arrives. Because they say they walked over to the body, IIRC.

The Davis' did walk over to the body and left 5 minutes later when the police cars started to arrive. IMO, they may have first heard/seen the siren and lights of the ambulance followed closely by the arrival of the DPD.

To do what you want, I'd have to have the ambulance arrive later than 1:10.

Do you think the ambulance arrived before TF Bowley? Clearly he arrived before the ambulance, even if his watch was wrong. If he arrived at 1:08 (which does NOT fit his timetable prior to arriving at the shooting) no matter how hard you try to rush him, he walked toward the cruiser, stopped to check JDT, went to the cruiser, discovered Domingo Benavides on the radio, got him out of the way, got in the car, called the PD, and got out of the car. To say he did that in 2 minutes is pushing it. So now it's 1:10. TFP didn't know that the police had already been called, so he would have been surprised to see the ambulance arrive immediately, yet he doesn't mention it. Therefore, the ambulance could only have arrived after 1:10. Add 2 minutes to this and the ambulance arrived at 1:12 if his watch was 2 minutes fast, 1:14 if his watch was accurate, and 1:16 if his watch was 2 minutes slow.

Tom

Edited July 10, 2016 by Tom Neal

[Sandy Larsen]

Timeline (including police officers and Virgina Davis)

1:10 - The ambulance arrives and the body is loaded. Callaway helps load Tippit's body, then grabs Tippit's gun and says to Scoggins, "Let's go after him [LHO]."

1:11 - Croy arrives and sees Tippit being loaded into the ambulance.

Croy actually talks about this incident:

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you talk with the taxi driver?

Mr. CROY. Yes; I did. I talked to the taxi driver.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, did you talk with him on the scene of the crime?

Mr. CROY. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you remember what his name was?

Mr. CROY. No; I didn't get his name. There was a private detective agency. There was a report that a cabdriver had picked up Tippit's gun and had left, presumably. They don't know whether he was the one that had shot Tippit, or whether the man, I think it was he, brought someone out there, something. Anyway, he saw it and he picked up Tippit's gun and attempted to give chase or something like that.

Mr. GRIFFIN. There was a detective who was an eyewitness?

Mr. CROY. No; he brought the taxi driver back to the scene.

Mr. GRIFFIN. But the taxicab driver was an eyewitness?

Mr. CROY. As far as I know.

Given that Callaway helped load Tippit's body, and that Croy arrived as the body was being loaded, Callaway and Scoggins must have taken off right when Croy arrived. And Croy mustn't have known what they were up to.

[Sandy Larsen]

IMO you have the Davises arriving at JTD's car a little too soon. They were both lying down when they heard the first shot. They didn't suspect gunfire until they heard the second shot. They put on their shoes and then proceeded to the front door in time to see the shooter cross their lawn and disappear around the corner. They then called the police, which would have taken a minute or two. Do people react immediately in a shocking situation that they've never experienced? I doubt events transpired as quickly as even they may think... Based upon their activities, I'd put their arrival time at JTD's car at 1:10 at the earliest.

The problem with a 1:10 (or later) arrival of the Davises at Tippit's car is that they have to arrive there before them ambulance does. Or at the latest, when the ambulance arrives. Because they say they walked over to the body, IIRC.

The Davis' did walk over to the body and left 5 minutes later when the police cars started to arrive. IMO, they may have first heard/seen the siren and lights of the ambulance followed closely by the arrival of the DPD.

To do what you want, I'd have to have the ambulance arrive later than 1:10.

Do you think the ambulance arrived before TF Bowley? Clearly he arrived before the ambulance, even if his watch was wrong. If he arrived at 1:08 (which does NOT fit his timetable prior to arriving at the shooting) no matter how hard you try to rush him, he walked toward the cruiser, stopped to check JDT, went to the cruiser, discovered Domingo Benavides on the radio, got him out of the way, got in the car, called the PD, and got out of the car. To say he did that in 2 minutes is pushing it. So now it's 1:10. TFP didn't know that the police had already been called, so he would have been surprised to see the ambulance arrive immediately, yet he doesn't mention it. Therefore, the ambulance could only have arrived after 1:10. Add 2 minutes to this and the ambulance arrived at 1:12 if his watch was 2 minutes fast, 1:14 if his watch was accurate, and 1:16 if his watch was 2 minutes slow.

Tom, I had responded to your T.F. Bowley comments, but I see now that it is gone..

There is a second problem with delaying the ambulance arrival. (The first problem being that I had already delayed the ambulance arrival by a couple minutes beyond what seemed reasonable.) The second problem is that a later ambulance arrival conflicts with the official time-of-death. The death certificate states 1:15 PM, as you know.

If we take your "watch is accurate" time of arrival for the ambulance, then we have the ambulance arriving at 1:14. Allow one minute for loading Tippit (and for the mayday call), and the ambulance departs at 1:15. If it takes only three minutes to arrive at the hospital, then it's arrival there would be at 1:18.

If the authorities wanted a LATER time-of-death so as NOT to exclude Oswald as a suspect, why would they choose a time of death earlier than the time he actually arrived at the hospital? 1:15 instead of 1:18? And why choose a time of death that is inconsistent with the ambulance driver's testimony and ambulance logs? (Or MORE inconsistent.)

But guess what... there is one more thing to consider. In his statement, T.F. Bowley says that the ambulance arrived "a few minutes" after he made his call. If we conservatively use 2 minutes for "a few minutes," then the ambulance ends up arriving at 1:20. I ask again, why wouldn't the officials have used that time as the official time of death? Instead of choosing 1:15?

[Tom Neal]

If the authorities wanted a LATER time-of-death so as NOT to exclude Oswald as a suspect, why would they choose a time of death earlier than the time he actually arrived at the hospital? 1:15 instead of 1:18? And why choose a time of death that is inconsistent with the ambulance driver's testimony and ambulance logs? (Or MORE inconsistent.)

But guess what... there is one more thing to consider. In his statement, T.F. Bowley says that the ambulance arrived "a few minutes" after he made his call. If we conservatively use 2 minutes for "a few minutes," then the ambulance ends up arriving at 1:20. I ask again, why wouldn't the officials have used that time as the official time of death? Instead of choosing 1:15?

"Time of Death" is an ambiguous term. Does it mean the time of the fatal shot, or the time he was pronounced dead? There are documents that put the time he was declared dead at 1:25. IMO, they wanted the shooting time at about 1:15 and the declared time of death as about 1:25. This gives LHO another 10 minutes to arrive and kill JDT.

It doesn't matter what time they say the ambulance arrived, or what time they called him dead at the hospital - as long as it doesn't conflict with the 1:15 shooting time, which coincides perfectly with a 1:18 time of arrival for the ambulance, and the documentation of this time is conveniently missing.

Tom

Edited July 10, 2016 by Tom Neal

[Jim Hargrove]

Isn’t it interesting that Honest Ken Croy…

… was the only police officer known to have chosen to go home only minutes after the shooting of the President of the United States.

… cared nothing about the assassination of President Kennedy, but involved himself in the shooting of a police officer—without any orders or authority to do so.

… contradicted himself on numerous occasions in his WC testimony.

… forgot the names of each and every witness at 10^th and Patton, and forgot the names of each and every police officer at 10^th and Patton.

… was on site before the ambulance arrived, and therefore must have seen Ted Callaway take the gun from Tippit’s body and get into a taxi to look for the shooter. Why would a police officer, in uniform, allow a civilian to take a weapon from a dead police officer?

… said that he spoke with a witness who was watering her yard, yet no known witness to the Tippit shooting was watering their yard during the shooting.

… was able to go directly to the scene of the Tippit shooting when four different addresses were given by the police dispatcher.

… first said he was given the wallet by an unidentified witness, yet later said that he was the man who found the wallet.

… was the first officer on the scene of the Tippit shooting, yet failed to file one report about his activities at 10^th and Patton.

If anyone thinks that Honest Ken Croy or his testimony can be trusted, I invite them to read similar nonsense provided by him regarding his activities when Oswald was shot and killed by Jack Ruby two days later.

Click here to read Croy's testimony.

Bump.

[Sandy Larsen]

If the authorities wanted a LATER time-of-death so as NOT to exclude Oswald as a suspect, why would they choose a time of death earlier than the time he actually arrived at the hospital? 1:15 instead of 1:18? And why choose a time of death that is inconsistent with the ambulance driver's testimony and ambulance logs? (Or MORE inconsistent.)

But guess what... there is one more thing to consider. In his statement, T.F. Bowley says that the ambulance arrived "a few minutes" after he made his call. If we conservatively use 2 minutes for "a few minutes," then the ambulance ends up arriving at 1:20. I ask again, why wouldn't the officials have used that time as the official time of death? Instead of choosing 1:15?

"Time of Death" is an ambiguous term. Does it mean the time of the fatal shot, or the time he was pronounced dead? There are documents that put the time he was declared dead at 1:25. IMO, they wanted the shooting time at about 1:15 and the declared time of death as about 1:25. This gives LHO another 10 minutes to arrive and kill JDT.

It doesn't matter what time they say the ambulance arrived, or what time they called him dead at the hospital - as long as it doesn't conflict with the 1:15 shooting time, which coincides perfectly with a 1:18 time of arrival for the ambulance, and the documentation of this time is conveniently missing.

Tom

Tom,

You make a fair and logical point.

(To which I'll just make the following remark: Suppose the true arrival time of the ambulance to the hospital was 1:15... a time supported by my current timeline. The doctors could have announced Tippit DOA at 1:15. The coroner could have overruled this time and announced the true time of death as being 1:06. The authorities could have later decided that the original 1:15 time of death was necessary in order to implicate Oswald, but the fact that is was DOA time had to be suppressed. And this would explain the 1:06 on the death certificate being changed to 1:15. This is scenario that makes sense to me.)

But regardless of that, I'm willing to consider what you're saying here.

Now, let me ask you the something:

We all believe the true TOD to be 1:06 PM. I think we all believe that Mrs. Frank Wright called the police pretty fast... no later than 1:07. The question is, how long would it have taken for the ambulance to arrive after Mrs.Wright made her call? All the reports I've seen suggest that it took little more than one minute. I personally believe it could have taken as long as two minutes. On my current timeline, I have the time delay at three minutes, so that the ambulance arrives at 1:10. (I made it longer than my personal 2 minute belief so that it could be reasonably reconciled with T.F. Bowley's statement.)

What is your position on this?

[Tom Neal]

If the authorities wanted a LATER time-of-death so as NOT to exclude Oswald as a suspect, why would they choose a time of death earlier than the time he actually arrived at the hospital? 1:15 instead of 1:18? And why choose a time of death that is inconsistent with the ambulance driver's testimony and ambulance logs? (Or MORE inconsistent.)

But guess what... there is one more thing to consider. In his statement, T.F. Bowley says that the ambulance arrived "a few minutes" after he made his call. If we conservatively use 2 minutes for "a few minutes," then the ambulance ends up arriving at 1:20. I ask again, why wouldn't the officials have used that time as the official time of death? Instead of choosing 1:15?

"Time of Death" is an ambiguous term. Does it mean the time of the fatal shot, or the time he was pronounced dead? There are documents that put the time he was declared dead at 1:25. IMO, they wanted the shooting time at about 1:15 and the declared time of death as about 1:25. This gives LHO another 10 minutes to arrive and kill JDT.

It doesn't matter what time they say the ambulance arrived, or what time they called him dead at the hospital - as long as it doesn't conflict with the 1:15 shooting time, which coincides perfectly with a 1:18 time of arrival for the ambulance, and the documentation of this time is conveniently missing.

Tom

Tom,

You make a fair and logical point.

(To which I'll just make the following remark: Suppose the true arrival time of the ambulance to the hospital was 1:15... a time supported by my current timeline. The doctors could have announced Tippit DOA at 1:15. The coroner could have overruled this time and announced the true time of death as being 1:06. The authorities could have later decided that the original 1:15 time of death was necessary in order to implicate Oswald, but the fact that is was DOA time had to be suppressed. And this would explain the 1:06 on the death certificate being changed to 1:15. This is scenario that makes sense to me.)

But regardless of that, I'm willing to consider what you're saying here.

Now, let me ask you the something:

We all believe the true TOD to be 1:06 PM. I think we all believe that Mrs. Frank Wright called the police pretty fast... no later than 1:07. The question is, how long would it have taken for the ambulance to arrive after Mrs.Wright made her call? All the reports I've seen suggest that it took little more than one minute. I personally believe it could have taken as long as two minutes. On my current timeline, I have the time delay at three minutes, so that the ambulance arrives at 1:10. (I made it longer than my personal 2 minute belief so that it could be reasonably reconciled with T.F. Bowley's statement.)

What is your position on this?

I haven't really devoted much time on the ambulance, because in the larger scheme of things it doesn't affect the evidence that the actual shooting took place at 1:06. That gives LHO his alibi, as he was seen at his rooming house at 1:04. If he really went there just to pick up his gun, where in that closet-sized room had he been hiding that pistol and holster? The woman that cleaned his room never saw either item.

Trying to get events down to the correct minute when dealing with all the variables...I don't know. I think that the shots were fired at 1:06, Mrs. Wright called at 1:07, and Hughes had the call by 1:08. It would certainly be easy to change 1:08 to 1:18 to give LHO more time to arrive as the shooter. The statement that the call was logged and machine time-stamped at 1:18 is told only in the 3rd-person from what I've read. It would be interesting to find out from J. Clayton Butler or Hughes IF that was the system used at that time, and did DPD, FBI, SS or someone take the original? Considering how often 'time-stamped at 1:18' is stated in publications I had at first believed this document was available. I have found numerous statements from researchers that they were unable to find it. You'd think it would have been published in the WCR. Also, Butler's HSCA testimony is not printed in the volumes as far as I can tell, but both Bugliosi and Myers list it as a source. If the ambulance driver's testimony wasn't considered important enough to print, why was he called to testify? Or did he perhaps contradict the 1:18 time?

Have you tried listing one column with times by the minute, and then in the next columns what event each witness stated had occurred at that time, and how they determined that time?

01:06 *** Mr/Mrs Wright - Shots fired (TV time hack) *** Helen Markham - Shots fired (her arrival time at the bus stop)

01:07

01:08

In the above example, the 1:06 time was determined independently by Markham and the Wrights, both of whom had good time references. This format would make it easier to evaluate and compare the witnesses statements with events such as the arrival of the ambulance.

BTW,

Ann McRavin (Mrs. Charles McRavin) of 404 East 10th St. (the shooting occurred in HER front yard!)

In the 1964 BBC program "The Day the President Died":

"I was standing at the window and I saw a man run by, and then there was a police car coming down the street and the policeman jumped out of the car, and just as he did the man turned around and shot him, and the man fell." Killer described by narrator as "fair-haired young man in shirt sleeves."

Although she witnessed the entire event, Mrs. McRavin was NOT called to testify by the WC, and I can't find a DPD record of an interview.

If an actual investigation had taken place, DPD would have a stack of records from each owner/tenant of the entire 400 block on 10th Street. Even if the statement said "didn't see a thing" or "wasn't home" the records would be kept to prove they had interviewed ALL POSSIBLE witnesses. Has DPD ever claimed they did this?

Tom

[Sandy Larsen]

Isn’t it interesting that Honest Ken Croy…

… was the only police officer known to have chosen to go home only minutes after the shooting of the President of the United States.

Apparently Croy had recently had a serious spat with his wife and had moved in with his parents. His mind was on that, as is suggested by his desire to try and reconcile with his wife when such an opportunity presented itself. Which it did when he saw her downtown and made a lunch date with her. Patching up his marriage was apparently more important to him than trying to solve the JFK assassination.

… cared nothing about the assassination of President Kennedy, but involved himself in the shooting of a police officer—without any orders or authority to do so.

He probably saw that the fort was being held down around Dealey Plaza, and he wasn't needed there. He was probably pleased that he wasn't needed, given that he had a date with his wife. (Though according to his testimony, he did ask some officers if they need assistance, and they said no.)

… contradicted himself on numerous occasions in his WC testimony.

I don't remember any contradictions. Please give examples.

… forgot the names of each and every witness at 10^th and Patton, and forgot the names of each and every police officer at 10^th and Patton.

Croy was a reserve officer and didn't know the names of most the DPD officers. Though he did recognize many faces. He states this in his WC testimony. (Many people -- including myself -- have a hard time remembering names.)

… was on site before the ambulance arrived, and therefore must have seen Ted Callaway take the gun from Tippit’s body and get into a taxi to look for the shooter. Why would a police officer, in uniform, allow a civilian to take a weapon from a dead police officer?

It's rather odd that you wish to make a point of this, Jim, as if it somehow supports your allegation that Croy was involved in murdering Tippit.

You (like myself and most others) believe that Croy was at the scene when Callaway and Scoggins set out in the taxicab to find the shooter. If Croy was involved in Tippit's assassination, as you believe, then surely he would NOT have wanted Callaway and Scoggins to find the shooter. Given that, why did Croy allow them to take Tippit's gun and search for the shooter? You need to answer your own question.

I'll be happy to answer your question. There are many possible explanations... here's one: Callaway was helping to load Tippit into the ambulance. He saw that the ambulance attendants had it under control, so he stopped and then grabbed Tippit's gun. Croy arrived at this time and saw the very end of Tippit being loaded. Croy didn't know Callaway has Tippit's gun. Callaway recruited Scoggins into driving after the shooter. Meanwhile Croy began asking questions and interviews Helen Markham.

… said that he spoke with a witness who was watering her yard, yet no known witness to the Tippit shooting was watering their yard during the shooting.

B.S. The witness wasn't watering her yard. She was doing something in somebody's yard, according to Croy's testimony. This witness was almost positively Helen Markham.

… was able to go directly to the scene of the Tippit shooting when four different addresses were given by the police dispatcher.

Apparently Croy picked the correct address. Or maybe he was on his way to the wrong address and was nearly there when the address correction was announced. Officer Poe also found the correct address just a minute or two later. He arrived later than Croy because he had further to drive.

… first said he was given the wallet by an unidentified witness, yet later said that he was the man who found the wallet.

References please. There is nothing in Croy's WC testimony about the wallet.

… was the first officer on the scene of the Tippit shooting, yet failed to file one report about his activities at 10^th and Patton.

I don't know why Croy wasn't required to file a report. Or if he did file a report but it contained information unacceptable to the official story, and therefore was destroyed. What I do know is that he was asked in his WC questioning if he had filed a report, and his reply was "no."

If anyone thinks that Honest Ken Croy or his testimony can be trusted, I invite them to read similar nonsense provided by him regarding his activities when Oswald was shot and killed by Jack Ruby two days later.

I skimmed through it, and read the parts pertaining to Ruby. But I saw nothing unusual. He was standing next to Ruby and he asked Ruby to move back when he instructed to do so. He tried to grab Ruby when he rushed toward Oswald but failed.

Yes, by all means, read Croy's testimony.

Click here to read Croy's testimony.

Bump.

Sorry Jim. But I think this is a bunch of ado about nothing. And I'm trying to save people from believing something that IMO is not true.

People can read Croy's testimony and decide for themselves.

[Jim Hargrove]

Isn’t it interesting that Honest Ken Croy…

… was the only police officer known to have chosen to go home only minutes after the shooting of the President of the United States.

Apparently Croy had recently had a serious spat with his wife and had moved in with his parents. His mind was on that, as is suggested by his desire to try and reconcile with his wife when such an opportunity presented itself. Which it did when he saw her downtown and made a lunch date with her. Patching up his marriage was apparently more important to him than trying to solve the JFK assassination.

You seriously believe this story, Sandy? By his own testimony, minutes (or seconds) after JFK is assassinated, Croy is sitting in his car at city hall at Main near Griffin and was “right in the middle of the street with my car hemmed in from both sides. I couldn’t go anywhere.” He said it took him twenty minutes to drive a couple of blocks to Houston and Main. Even though his own affidavit indicates reserve cops were being called in to monitor the transfer of LHO on 11/24, this reserve cop asks policemen he didn’t recognize if he could be of assistance in the matter of the shooting of the President of the United States at this very location minutes earlier, but they, he said, said no and so he “preceded home.”

Of course, he didn’t go home. Instead, he later testified that earlier, while he was at the courthouse, his estranged wife happened to drive by, despite the traffic jam,and, since he wasn’t needed to help investigate the shooting of President Kennedy, they decided to go have lunch at Austin’s Barbecue.

Mr. Griffin. Where did you see her downtown? Where were you and she when you saw each other?

Mr. Croy. At the courthouse. She pulled up beside me. I asked if anybody needed me there, and they said, “no,” and here she comes and I said, “Do you want to get something to eat? And she said, “Yes.”

This is the story you want me to believe, Sandy? But wait… there’s more to this ridiculous saga.

… cared nothing about the assassination of President Kennedy, but involved himself in the shooting of a police officer—without any orders or authority to do so.

He probably saw that the fort was being held down around Dealey Plaza, and he wasn't needed there. He was probably pleased that he wasn't needed, given that he had a date with his wife. (Though according to his testimony, he did ask some officers if they need assistance, and they said no.)

And you believe this???

… contradicted himself on numerous occasions in his WC testimony.

I don't remember any contradictions. Please give examples.

Well, for example, look at the bottom half of p. 192 in his testimony. But let’s just cut to the chase.

At the beginning of Honest Ken Croy’s testimony, Griffin said to him “if you have any other information that you feel would be useful to us in any other areas of our inquiry, we would like very much to have that.” And near the very end, Griffin added:

“Is there anything else that you think that you could tell us as a result of your experiences on the 22nd, 23rd, or 24th, or any other time that would be helpful to us, either in the investigation of the assassination of President Kennedy, or the murder of Jack Ruby.”

And Honest Ken Croy answered, “None that I know of. This is as well as I can remember it of what happened.”

According to Honest Ken, though, it turns out that he forgot to mention that he either found or was given ( depending on which version of his story you with to go with) a wallet at the Tippit murder scene that contained identification of Lee Harvey Oswald and Alec Hidell, and that he held on to it, apparently showing it to no one, until he gave it to Captain Westbrook when he arrived much later.

Was Honest Ken lying during his testimony, or was he lying when he told the world about that wallet? Was he lying then or later? Answer: He was probably ALWAYS lying!

… forgot the names of each and every witness at 10^th and Patton, and forgot the names of each and every police officer at 10^th and Patton.

Croy was a reserve officer and didn't know the names of most the DPD officers. Though he did recognize many faces. He states this in his WC testimony. (Many people -- including myself -- have a hard time remembering names.)

He was a reserve officer for more than four years. You want us to believe he asked some cops standing around the corner that he didn’t know if he was needed at the crime scene of a presidential assassination, and he didn’t catch a name? REALLY?

… was on site before the ambulance arrived, and therefore must have seen Ted Callaway take the gun from Tippit’s body and get into a taxi to look for the shooter. Why would a police officer, in uniform, allow a civilian to take a weapon from a dead police officer?

It's rather odd that you wish to make a point of this, Jim, as if it somehow supports your allegation that Croy was involved in murdering Tippit.

You (like myself and most others) believe that Croy was at the scene when Callaway and Scoggins set out in the taxicab to find the shooter. If Croy was involved in Tippit's assassination, as you believe, then surely he would NOT have wanted Callaway and Scoggins to find the shooter. Given that, why did Croy allow them to take Tippit's gun and search for the shooter? You need to answer your own question.

I'll be happy to answer your question. There are many possible explanations... here's one: Callaway was helping to load Tippit into the ambulance. He saw that the ambulance attendants had it under control, so he stopped and then grabbed Tippit's gun. Croy arrived at this time and saw the very end of Tippit being loaded. Croy didn't know Callaway has Tippit's gun. Callaway recruited Scoggins into driving after the shooter. Meanwhile Croy began asking questions and interviews Helen Markham.

Croy could hardly have been more helpful if he had hidden Tippit’s killer in the back seat of his car. He talked, he said, to a witness for “a good 5 or 10 minutes.”

Mr. Croy. The only information I could get out of her was the description of what Oswald had on, and him shooting him.

Mr. Griffin. What did she tell you at the time that he had on?

Mr. Croy. “I don’t recall what he had on.”

That’s right! The only information he could get out of a witness he interviewed for a “good 5 or 10 minutes” was her “description of what Oswald had on,” but he didn’t know what Oswald had on!! But wait, there’s more:

Mr. Croy. I believe it was a man that was standing there in the yard. He said he saw Oswald just walk up the street.

Mr. Griffin. What direction did he say?

Mr. Croy. He didn’t say.

….

Mr. Griffin. Were you able to determine from them what direction he saw Oswald walking?

Mr. Croy. No.

Mr. Griffin. Do you recall this man’s name?

Mr. Croy. No; I found the witness and took him to the other officers.

Mr. Griffin. Now, after the Tippit—how long did you remain at the scene of the Tippit killing?

Mr. Croy. Oh, I would say a good 30 minutes. Thirty or forty minutes, something like that.

Mr. Griffin. Then where did you go?

Mr. Croy. Home. I went to eat.

Mr. Griffin. I take it, at some restaurant or something.

Mr. Croy. Yes.

Mr. Griffin. Did you remain home the rest of the day?

Mr. Croy. Yes.

Of course, all the time Honest Ken Croy was failing to find one single clue about the man who had just killed a police officer, and all the time he drove slowly past the Texas Theater to make sure he wasn’t needed there, either, his wife is waiting patiently at the Austin BBQ. This is the story you expect us to believe, Sandy?

---------------

… said that he spoke with a witness who was watering her yard, yet no known witness to the Tippit shooting was watering their yard during the shooting.

B.S. The witness wasn't watering her yard. She was doing something in somebody's yard, according to Croy's testimony. This witness was almost positively Helen Markham.

Mr. Croy. I don’t recall. I think she lived across the street. She was standing out in front watering her yard or doing something in her yard.

…

Mr. Griffin. Well, you stated that she was watering her yard?

And on and on.

… was able to go directly to the scene of the Tippit shooting when four different addresses were given by the police dispatcher.

Apparently Croy picked the correct address. Or maybe he was on his way to the wrong address and was nearly there when the address correction was announced. Officer Poe also found the correct address just a minute or two later. He arrived later than Croy because he had further to drive.

Yet another coincidence in this remarkable case! With honest Ken Croy, they just keep piling up! Like the fact that he just happened to be the last person talking to Jack Ruby before Ruby shot Oswald. And, according to his affidavit, he “reached for this individual and touched his coat tail attempting to stop him.” For a guy who couldn’t find a clue if it fell on his head, Honest Ken Croy sure got around!

… first said he was given the wallet by an unidentified witness, yet later said that he was the man who found the wallet.

References please. There is nothing in Croy's WC testimony about the wallet.

No, Sandy. The references, including YouTube videos, photographs signed by Croy indicating he found the wallet and was first on the Tippit murder scene, and much more are ALL OVER THE INTERNET! There’s this thing called Google….

… was the first officer on the scene of the Tippit shooting, yet failed to file one report about his activities at 10^th and Patton.

I don't know why Croy wasn't required to file a report. Or if he did file a report but it contained information unacceptable to the official story, and therefore was destroyed. What I do know is that he was asked in his WC questioning if he had filed a report, and his reply was "no."

See what I mean? Stunning! Maybe his estranged wife was STILL waiting at Austen’s Barbeque, and he was thinking about her instead. Poor guy!

If anyone thinks that Honest Ken Croy or his testimony can be trusted, I invite them to read similar nonsense provided by him regarding his activities when Oswald was shot and killed by Jack Ruby two days later.

I skimmed through it, and read the parts pertaining to Ruby. But I saw nothing unusual. He was standing next to Ruby and he asked Ruby to move back when he instructed to do so. He tried to grab Ruby when he rushed toward Oswald but failed.

Yes, by all means, read Croy's testimony.

Try not to laugh! Only the Warren Commission could give this guy a pass.

Click here to read Croy's testimony.

Bump.

Sorry Jim. But I think this is a bunch of ado about nothing. And I'm trying to save people from believing something that IMO is not true.

You should be a defense attorney, Sandy. Apparently you can keep a straight face no matter what BS is put in front of you. If Honest Ken Croy didn't help Ruby get into the basement without a press pass, who did?

People can read Croy's testimony and decide for themselves. INDEED!!!

[Sandy Larsen]

Isn’t it interesting that Honest Ken Croy…

… was the only police officer known to have chosen to go home only minutes after the shooting of the President of the United States.

Apparently Croy had recently had a serious spat with his wife and had moved in with his parents. His mind was on that, as is suggested by his desire to try and reconcile with his wife when such an opportunity presented itself. Which it did when he saw her downtown and made a lunch date with her. Patching up his marriage was apparently more important to him than trying to solve the JFK assassination.

You seriously believe this story, Sandy?

Bump.

Yes, I do believe it, Jim. And nothing you've added has changed my mind.