Two Dallas cops were involved in the pre-arranged murder of Tippit...

[Sandy Larsen]

I do think, though, that the Tippit murder was premeditated, not so much by the DPD per se as by Westbrook, Croy and .... uh .... a guy who looked a bit like the "Lee Harvey Oswald" we all think we know, but was wearing a white t-shirt and dark pants in the early afternoon of 11/22/63. I think Westbrook brought the infamous wallet to 10th & Patton and introduced it into evidence there. I think he got the Eisenhower jacket and a .38 revolver from a certain person in a white t-shirt who , again, looked a little like the LHO we all think we know.

Jim,

I can see reasons for premeditation, or execution of a backup plan. "LHO" dropping his wallet at the crime scene is too 'over the top' to have been planned. Especially when another wallet was "found on LHO" when he was arrested. You'd think the original plan would have been coordinated to a high degree.

Was there a reason for killing JDT other than making LHO a "cop-killer?"

Tom

Tom,

I agree that dropping a wallet seems over the top for a plot to frame LHO. But how else can the wallet be explained? Are you saying that maybe it was part of a seat-of-the-pants backup operation?

If so, I wonder why the perps happened to have the wallet in their possession. (Maybe they had a whole war chest full of LHO-related props?)

check nagell's trunk

Good point, Martin.

Nagell had a copy of Oswald's military ID card. Did he have anything else Oswald related?

[Martin Blank]

I do think, though, that the Tippit murder was premeditated, not so much by the DPD per se as by Westbrook, Croy and .... uh .... a guy who looked a bit like the "Lee Harvey Oswald" we all think we know, but was wearing a white t-shirt and dark pants in the early afternoon of 11/22/63. I think Westbrook brought the infamous wallet to 10th & Patton and introduced it into evidence there. I think he got the Eisenhower jacket and a .38 revolver from a certain person in a white t-shirt who , again, looked a little like the LHO we all think we know.

Jim,

I can see reasons for premeditation, or execution of a backup plan. "LHO" dropping his wallet at the crime scene is too 'over the top' to have been planned. Especially when another wallet was "found on LHO" when he was arrested. You'd think the original plan would have been coordinated to a high degree.

Was there a reason for killing JDT other than making LHO a "cop-killer?"

Tom

Tom,

I agree that dropping a wallet seems over the top for a plot to frame LHO. But how else can the wallet be explained? Are you saying that maybe it was part of a seat-of-the-pants backup operation?

If so, I wonder why the perps happened to have the wallet in their possession. (Maybe they had a whole war chest full of LHO-related props?)

check nagell's trunk

Good point, Martin.

Nagell had a copy of Oswald's military ID card. Did he have anything else Oswald related?

off the top of my head i think he had a piece of paper that appeared to be someone practicing LHO's signature on it; have to go back and look

[Martin Blank]

here you go:

When his car trunk was examined (at his suggestion), authorities found a number of most interesting items. Unfortunately, the majority of these were never formally entered into the record and most were not returned to Nagell after his conviction for bank robbery was eventually overturned.

The items that are available are amazingly similar to items also in the possession of Lee Oswald. They include:

(1) One miniature Minolta camera and developing kit.

(2) Fair Play for Cuba leaflets.

(3) The P.O. Box for the Fair Play for Cuba committee in New Orleans, Louisiana. The committee which had only one member. Lee Oswald.

(4) Cuban and Communist literature including the Case against Cuba by Corless Lament, one of the documents also being used in New Orleans by Lee Oswald.

(5) A notebook containing the unlisted telephone number of the Cuban embassy, the same number as found in Oswald's notebook.

(6) The notebook also contained names of individuals who would much later be identified as CIA personnel from its Los Angles office. (The names were submitted by the FBI to the CIA in October '63 and eventually verified by the CIA as being names of actual employees)

In addition, the trial files for Richard Nagell also contain an identification card, the card being a military ID with Nagell's photo and the name and signature of Lee H. Oswald.

[Martin Blank]

here you go:

When his car trunk was examined (at his suggestion), authorities found a number of most interesting items. Unfortunately, the majority of these were never formally entered into the record and most were not returned to Nagell after his conviction for bank robbery was eventually overturned.

The items that are available are amazingly similar to items also in the possession of Lee Oswald. They include:

(1) One miniature Minolta camera and developing kit.

(2) Fair Play for Cuba leaflets.

(3) The P.O. Box for the Fair Play for Cuba committee in New Orleans, Louisiana. The committee which had only one member. Lee Oswald.

(4) Cuban and Communist literature including the Case against Cuba by Corless Lament, one of the documents also being used in New Orleans by Lee Oswald.

(5) A notebook containing the unlisted telephone number of the Cuban embassy, the same number as found in Oswald's notebook.

(6) The notebook also contained names of individuals who would much later be identified as CIA personnel from its Los Angles office. (The names were submitted by the FBI to the CIA in October '63 and eventually verified by the CIA as being names of actual employees)

In addition, the trial files for Richard Nagell also contain an identification card, the card being a military ID with Nagell's photo and the name and signature of Lee H. Oswald.

more:

John Simkin: Is there official documentation of what was found in Nagell’s car? If so, it seems to be an important factor in understanding what was going on in 1963.

Larry Hancock: There is only partial documentation on the contents of Nagell's car, the items which I discuss in my book were listed on the second page of an FBI report and the first page seems to have vanished. Dick Russell could not find the detailed property reports in the court records nor was there a personal property report e.g. wallet, contents of wallet etc. What is documented is very suggestive but its worth noting that Nagell made continued efforts to get all the personal and car property back to aid in his defense and that was repeatedly denied. In fact only part of it was ever returned and that was many years later as part of his personal law suit.

John Simkin: Has there been confirmation of the warning about the assassination of JFK that Nagell sent to the FBI? This fits in with other evidence that suggests someone was trying to tell the FBI about a possible assassination attempt on JFK. Judyth Baker also claims that Oswald was working with someone else in the team to undermine the assassination. Could that have been Nagell?

Larry Hancock: There is no direct confirmation of a warning letter to Hoover, the only circumstantial points tending to confirm it are covered in the book including the special questions for the very early interview of Marina Oswald - questions sent from FBI HQ that could indicate that Hoover did indeed have an advance warning from Nagell specifically about Oswald.

[Sandy Larsen]

It's odd that parts of the Tippit killing seem well planned... like its timing, Lee making sure he is seen, his exit in the direction of the theater. And yet other parts are so awfully planned... like his accomplice being spotted, the extra wallet, clothing not matching Harvey's, inconsistencies in the shells.

But then, same thing with the JFK killing. A Mouser turning into a Carcano, etc.

I keep wondering where/when the assassination plot ended and the cover-up began. For a long time I've considered the cover-up to be a make-it-up-as-you-go-along operation. If that's true, that could explained the deficits I just described (e.g. Mouser/Carcano confusion). But it's just too hard to believe that an improvised cover-up could be organized and implemented so quickly. Even a bungled one.

It's as though the plotters were late with their "assignment" and were still scrambling to complete it well after after the bell had rung.

[Sandy Larsen]

here you go:

When his car trunk was examined (at his suggestion), authorities found a number of most interesting items. Unfortunately, the majority of these were never formally entered into the record and most were not returned to Nagell after his conviction for bank robbery was eventually overturned.

The items that are available are amazingly similar to items also in the possession of Lee Oswald. They include:

(1) One miniature Minolta camera and developing kit.

(2) Fair Play for Cuba leaflets.

(3) The P.O. Box for the Fair Play for Cuba committee in New Orleans, Louisiana. The committee which had only one member. Lee Oswald.

(4) Cuban and Communist literature including the Case against Cuba by Corless Lament, one of the documents also being used in New Orleans by Lee Oswald.

(5) A notebook containing the unlisted telephone number of the Cuban embassy, the same number as found in Oswald's notebook.

(6) The notebook also contained names of individuals who would much later be identified as CIA personnel from its Los Angles office. (The names were submitted by the FBI to the CIA in October '63 and eventually verified by the CIA as being names of actual employees)

In addition, the trial files for Richard Nagell also contain an identification card, the card being a military ID with Nagell's photo and the name and signature of Lee H. Oswald.

Ah yes... the standard-issue Oswald Project kit.

[Martin Blank]

in the photos for tmwktm is a photocopy of a lee harvey oswald ss card sent to arthur green stein by nagell with 4 Oswald signatures under it. there's a one-page appendix on page 731 that talks about the various oswald cards nagell had

old edition

[Tom Neal]

********** BUMP **********

Tom, Aquila Clemens described the man with the gun as "short and kind of heavy" and wearing "khaki and a white shirt" -

The second man was thin and tall rather than short.

Thanks, Ray. Now if we only knew if Westbrook fit the description.

While searching for video of Westbrook, I found film taken by Ron Reiland of WFAA TV in Dallas. At the JDT murder scene, a closeup of a wallet is seen in the hand of policeman. Reiland himself narrating the film states that "the officer's billfold was found" at the crime scene.

Hmmmmmmm...

EDIT: After ALL this chatter about LHO's wallet found at the murder scene and NO ONE finds it interesting that only hours after JDT's murder, the TV cameraman who took footage of the wallet states on live TV that the wallet belonged to TIPPIT not OSWALD.

[Jim Hargrove]

IT WAS NOT TIPPIT'S WALLET FILMED AT 10TH & PATTON BY RON REILAND! Tippit's wallet accompanied his body to Methodist Hospital and is listed in the police report along with Tippit's badge and some other personal belongings. The police report indicated Tippit's wallet was black. The wallet filmed at 10th & Patton was brown.

[Jim Hargrove]

********** BUMP **********

Tom, Aquila Clemens described the man with the gun as "short and kind of heavy" and wearing "khaki and a white shirt" -

The second man was thin and tall rather than short.

Thanks, Ray. Now if we only knew if Westbrook fit the description.

While searching for video of Westbrook, I found film taken by Ron Reiland of WFAA TV in Dallas. At the JDT murder scene, a closeup of a wallet is seen in the hand of policeman. Reiland himself narrating the film states that "the officer's billfold was found" at the crime scene.

Hmmmmmmm...

EDIT: After ALL this chatter about LHO's wallet found at the murder scene and NO ONE finds it interesting that only hours after JDT's murder, the TV cameraman who took footage of the wallet states on live TV that the wallet belonged to TIPPIT not OSWALD.

Tippit's wallet accompanied his body to Methodist Hospital and is listed in the police report along with Tippit's badge and some other personal belongings. The police report indicated Tippit's wallet was black. The wallet filmed at 10th & Patton was brown. I'll try to dig up the report. It is in the John Armstrong Collection at Baylor. (See link on the Harvey and Lee homepage.)

In the meantime....

From James P. Hosty, Assignment Oswald, p. 62:

Captain Westbrook and the Dallas police were in charge, but Barrett set about inspecting the crime scene. Near the puddle of blood where Tippit’s body had lain, Westbrook had found a man’s leather wallet. In it, he discovered identification for Lee Oswald, as well as other identification for Alek J. Hidell. Westbrook called Barrett over and showed him the wallet and identifications. Westbrook asked Barrett if the FBI knew anything about Oswald or Hidell. Barrett shook his head. Westbrook took the wallet into his custody so that it could be placed into police property later.

Hosty then goes on to explain how things got goofed up about the wallet. Indeed!

[Tom Neal]

********** BUMP **********

Tom, Aquila Clemens described the man with the gun as "short and kind of heavy" and wearing "khaki and a white shirt" -

The second man was thin and tall rather than short.

Thanks, Ray. Now if we only knew if Westbrook fit the description.

While searching for video of Westbrook, I found film taken by Ron Reiland of WFAA TV in Dallas. At the JDT murder scene, a closeup of a wallet is seen in the hand of policeman. Reiland himself narrating the film states that "the officer's billfold was found" at the crime scene.

Hmmmmmmm...

EDIT: After ALL this chatter about LHO's wallet found at the murder scene and NO ONE finds it interesting that only hours after JDT's murder, the TV cameraman who took footage of the wallet states on live TV that the wallet belonged to TIPPIT not OSWALD.

Tippit's wallet accompanied his body to Methodist Hospital and is listed in the police report along with Tippit's badge and some other personal belongings. The police report indicated Tippit's wallet was black. The wallet filmed at 10th & Patton was brown. I'll try to dig up the report. It is in the John Armstrong Collection at Baylor. (See link on the Harvey and Lee homepage.)

In the meantime....

From James P. Hosty, Assignment Oswald, p. 62:

Captain Westbrook and the Dallas police were in charge, but Barrett set about inspecting the crime scene. Near the puddle of blood where Tippit’s body had lain, Westbrook had found a man’s leather wallet. In it, he discovered identification for Lee Oswald, as well as other identification for Alek J. Hidell. Westbrook called Barrett over and showed him the wallet and identifications. Westbrook asked Barrett if the FBI knew anything about Oswald or Hidell. Barrett shook his head. Westbrook took the wallet into his custody so that it could be placed into police property later.

Hosty then goes on to explain how things got goofed up about the wallet. Indeed!

Thanks, Jim.

It never occurred to me the cops would be going through JDT's wallet in front of reporters--what were they looking for? There wasn't any question as the dead cops name...

I'll pull out Hosty and see what he has to say.

Tom

[Jim Hargrove]

Thanks, Jim.

It never occurred to me the cops would be going through JDT's wallet in front of reporters--what were they looking for? There wasn't any question as the dead cops name...

I'll pull out Hosty and see what he has to say.

Tom

Hosty appears to be genuinely puzzled about how the drop wallet from 10th and Patton disappeared. Also from p. 62 of his book he writes this:

Although official police reports would later state that Oswald's wallet and identification were found on Oswald's person when he was arrested in the movie theater, Barrett insists that Westbrook found them near where Tippit was slain. I have to speculate that at the theater, Westbrook had handed the wallet to a lower-ranking officer, and in the confusion it was assumed the wallet had been retrieved from Oswald's person. The FBI decided to go with the official police version.…

Notice how Westbrook is absolutely the central figure handling the evidence in all of this stuff. Back at headquarters, he keeps the .38 revolver(s) in his office—THE PERSONNEL OFFICE—for an hour or so.

Also, below is a copy of the DPD report showing that Tippit’s wallet was black (the wallet at 10th and Patton was brown).

[David Andrews]

Not to get all melodramatic here, but:

WESTBROOK (To Tippit): Arrest him!

Tippit gets out of the car and heads around the front toward "Oswald"

"OSWALD": Now wait a minute, here...

WESTBROOK (To "Oswald"): Shoot him!

"Oswald" pulls his revolver and shoots Tippit across the patrol car hood. Tippit falls down and out of the frame.

A beat. Nobody moves.

WESTBROOK (To "Oswald"): Finish him!

Yep, during several phone conversations, John Armstrong has speculated about an almost identical scenario! Here's how he put it on my website:

As Tippit walked near the front of his patrol car LEE Oswald pulled his pistol and fired three shots. After Tippit fell to the ground LEE Oswald walked to the back of Tippit's car. He then stopped, returned to where Tippit was laying, and and deliberately shot him in the head (around 1:06-1:08 PM). Could Westbrook, who got out of the police car at the same time, have said, "finish the job," or something similar? That could have caused LEE Oswald to stop, turn around and re-trace his steps, and then shoot Tippit in the head with a fourth shot. Jack Tatum saw the 4th shot and said, "whoever shot Tippit was determined that he shouldn't live and he was determined to finish the job."

NOTE: JFK researcher Shirley Martin tape-recorded an interview with Mrs. Aquilla Clemmons in August, 1964. Mrs. Clemmons said that while sitting on her porch, she saw two men standing near the police cruiser moments before Tippit was shot.

Mrs. Doris Holan lived on the 2nd floor at 409 E Tenth Street (see map above), directly across the street from the Tippit shooting. Mrs Holan had just returned home from her job a few minutes after 1:00 PM when she heard several gun shots. From her 2nd floor bedroom window she had possibly the best view of the murder scene (see photo), and saw Tippit lying on the street near the left front of his patrol car. Mrs. Holan observed the shooter as he was walking across the Davis's lawn toward Patton. Mrs Holan also noticed a 2nd police car parked in the narrow driveway between the houses directly across the street (between 404 and 410 E. 10th). Tippit's car was parked on 10th St., directly in front of the narrow driveway, and prevented the 2nd police car from driving onto 10th St.

From the description of Oswald (or "Oswald") seeming to chat with Tippit through the car window, I'm wondering if Westbrook and Croy didn't circle around the corner and pull up in the driveway, so Westbrook could force Tippit to arrest Oswald, and Oswald to shoot Tippit, when things might have gone differently if Westbrook hadn't shown up. I was trying to get at that in my screenplay schematic.

[Tom Neal]

Considering that most of DPD was present in the theater for LHO's arrest...

IIRC didn't they interview, or at least take the names of all patrons at the theater at the time of LHO's attest? I believe that is one of many documents that has disappeared. SURPRISE!

Tom

[Jim Hargrove]

Considering that most of DPD was present in the theater for LHO's arrest...

IIRC didn't they interview, or at least take the names of all patrons at the theater at the time of LHO's attest? I believe that is one of many documents that has disappeared. SURPRISE!

Tom

And guess who most likely "lost" the patron list? Not much of a surprise here, either. Not-so-good ole Capt. W.R. Westbrook!

From John's Nov 22 write-up on my website:

Before leaving the Texas Theater, Capt. Westbrook ordered Detective Taylor, Lt. Cunningham, and J.B. Tony "to take the names and addresses of the occupants of the theater." Detective Taylor noted in his report (CE 2003, page 97, at WCH 24/243) that he, Lt. Cunningham, and J.B. Tony remained at the theater following the arrest "and took the names and addresses of the occupants of the theater." These officers would likely have turned their completed lists over to the man who gave them the order, Captain Westbrook. But these lists of theater patrons, like the wallet produced by Westbrook at 10th & Patton, disappeared and were never seen again. There was no chain of evidence regarding the list of theater patrons or the wallet, no police reports, and both items simply disappeared. The WC, perhaps intentionally, did not take the testimony of Taylor, Cunningham, or Tony. They could have asked any of these officers what they did with their completed lists. The WC did ask Westbrook about the list of theater patrons and, as can be expected, he answered "No; possibly Lieutenant Cunningham will know, but I don't know who has the list."

There are so many nails in Westbrook's coffin it's hard to imagine more. But we'll have some more in a few weeks.