Two Dallas cops were involved in the pre-arranged murder of Tippit...

[Tom Neal]

And guess who most likely "lost" the patron list? Not much of a surprise here, either. Not-so-good ole Capt. W.R. Westbrook!

From John's Nov 22 write-up on my website:

Before leaving the Texas Theater, Capt. Westbrook ordered Detective Taylor, Lt. Cunningham, and J.B. Tony "to take the names and addresses of the occupants of the theater." Detective Taylor noted in his report (CE 2003, page 97, at WCH 24/243) that he, Lt. Cunningham, and J.B. Tony remained at the theater following the arrest "and took the names and addresses of the occupants of the theater." These officers would likely have turned their completed lists over to the man who gave them the order, Captain Westbrook. But these lists of theater patrons, like the wallet produced by Westbrook at 10th & Patton, disappeared and were never seen again. There was no chain of evidence regarding the list of theater patrons or the wallet, no police reports, and both items simply disappeared. The WC, perhaps intentionally, did not take the testimony of Taylor, Cunningham, or Tony. They could have asked any of these officers what they did with their completed lists. The WC did ask Westbrook about the list of theater patrons and, as can be expected, he answered "No; possibly Lieutenant Cunningham will know, but I don't know who has the list."

Thank, Jim. I had a feeling Westbrook would be the most likely boy to have misplaced it. This of course leads to the question: Who was present in the theater that had to be kept secret?

Despite the hyperbole and claims of "new" evidence, this does show a detailed comparison of "LHO's" wallet and JDT's as displayed by Marie Tippit:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f3nFKFoUyJ0

FBI SA Robert Barret comments on the presence of "a Dallas police Captain" handling the wallet, but the video does NOT name Westbrook. The video shows a man in jacket and tie or suit who is presumably Westbrook. A uniformed Sergeant is in the frame holding the wallet along with "Westbrook." According to Curry's book, Sergeants C.B. Owens and G.L. Hill were among the first to arrive at the Tippit murder scene. Gerry Hill also had possession of "LHO's" gun (given to him by Sgt. Bob Carroll) in the squad car that took LHO to DPD headquarters.

IIRC correctly Aquila Clemmons described the tall man as wearing khakis and a white shirt. I don't recall anyone describing the 2nd man as wearing a suit.

There are so many nails in Westbrook's coffin it's hard to imagine more. But we'll have some more in a few weeks.

I'm most definitely looking forward to what is coming! Any hints would be appreciated...

Tom

Edited June 17, 2016 by Tom Neal

[Sandy Larsen]

Tom,

You are correct, Acquilla Clemmons did say that the second man -- the tall, thin one -- was wearing a white shirt and khaki pants. She didn't say what the shorter guy was wearing, at least not to Lane. But she did say that he was short and a little chunky/heavy. She also described him as being "not a very big man."

Another witness said that the gunman was short and heavy. (Paraphrasing.)

From listening to the descriptions of these two witnesses, I got the impression that they were saying that the man was a little overweight, as we would put it today. Not just muscular... that kind of stocky.

I've never gotten the impression that LEE Oswald would have be described as being chunky/overweight. Because of that, I'd like to make a compilation of descriptions given by all the witnesses, to see how strong the evidence is that the short guy was overweight. And also to see if the guy running toward the theater was the tall or the short guy.

Do you have such a list? Or know where I can find a compilation of Tippit-killer testimonies? Naturally, I'm more interested in what they said in interviews than in testimony given before the WC. (BTW I don't trust Helen Markham's testimony at all.)

Obviously I'm putting John Armstrong's story to the test. (This is the first time I've studied the Tippit aspect of the assassination.)

Another thing I'm doing is putting part of James Files' story to the test. So far I've been impressed by his story. And where there have been difficulties in his story, Wim Dankbaar has provided convincing responses IMO. The one problem I've personally had with Files' story is the part about his friend, Gary Marlow, shooting Tippit. However, when I listened to Acquilla Clemmons' story about the tall guy she witnessed, Marlow came to mind. He was a tall guy.

Files said that Marlow was sent to kill Oswald. Something went wrong and he ended up killing Tippit instead. Assuming for a moment this is true, I envision Marlow being the tall guy who shot Tippit. For some reason he then hands the gun to the short guy, and the short guy empties the gun as the tall guy begins to walk away. The short guy then tosses the gun to the tall guy and the tall guy runs. The short guy runs too, but in another direction.

What I just described matches Acquilla Clemmons' testimony. (Though she assumed that the short guy was the shooter, since he was holding the gun when she first ran out of her house.) The reason my hypothesis has the tall guy shooting Tippit is because of Marlow's claim that he shot Tippit.

I have been trying to think of a reasonable explanation that makes this work out, and yet leaves Oswald out of the story (remember, Marlow was sent to shoot him, and it seems he wasn't even there). But so far I've come up empty handed.

Now, let me add one more part of James Files story. He says that mobster Johnny Roselli was sent to Dallas early in the morning of 11/22/63 to announce that the plot had been called off. (This is corroborated by CIA contract pilot Tosh Plumlee, who flew Roselli from Miami to the Dallas area early that morning.) Files also said that he and his accomplice, mobster Charles Nicoletti, chose to ignore the assassination cancellation. I wonder if that is what led to much of the confusion, such as the the Mouser/Carcano thing. I also wonder if that is what led to Tippit being frustrated and making his rushed telephone calls. And I wonder if that is what ultimately caused the confusion that led to Marlow killing Tippit, not Oswald. Because if the assassination was officially called off and yet it went forward, that certainly would have led to numerous difficulties in resuming the plot.

[Jim Hargrove]

Good luck with your project, Sandy. I’m pretty sure you’ll find that witness descriptions about the Tippit shooting are all over the place, but one thing John has always told me is that, when evaluating what each witness says, you have to consider where each was when Tippit was killed.

For example, Acquilla Clemmons was in the next block west of Patton on 10th Ave, the block west of the block in which Tippit was killed. She could easily get some details wrong.

Another example showing how important location was to witnesses involves Doris Holan. Among all the witnesses, Mrs. Holan alone described the 2nd squad car at the murder scene. But remember… location, location, location! Mrs. Holan lived directly across the street from the narrow driveway between the duplexes at 404/406 and 408/410 10th St. and, from her second story window, she had a clear view of that driveway because she could see over Tippit’s car, which was parked directly in front of the driveway. The second squad car was in that driveway, hidden by houses on either side and Tippit’s squad car in front.

Here are a map and an aerial shot prepared by John and David Josephs to help make this stuff clearer.

Hope this helps!

[Jim Hargrove]

Thank, Jim. I had a feeling Westbrook would be the most likely boy to have misplaced it. This of course leads to the question: Who was present in the theater that had to be kept secret?

The fellow at the theater Westbrook didn’t want the world to know about was American-born Lee Oswald, who was wearing a white shirt and sitting in the balcony when the police arrived. Lee Oswald killed J.D. Tippit and led police to the Texas Theater, where Russian-speaking Harvey Oswald was already sitting on the main floor..

Lee looked enough like Harvey to fool many witnesses, including apparently, some Dallas police. There are two DPD reports indicating that “Lee Harvey Oswald” was arrested in the balcony of the theater.

See lines 6 & 7 in the main paragraph below:

From John’s write-up on November 22 at my website:

After HARVEY Oswald was arrested and taken out the front of the theater, LEE Oswald was escorted out the back of the theater. There is no police report, no record of arrest, nor any mention of a person taken out the rear of the theater. Capt. Westbrook saw LEE Oswald shoot officer Tippit at 10th & Patton. He produced a 2nd Oswald wallet at 10th & Patton. Westbrook either planted or knew exactly where to find the suspect's jacket. He was the first police officer to arrive at the theater. Westbrook ordered police to compile a list of the names and addresses of theater patrons, a list that soon disappeared. Westbrook was the highest ranking officer at the Texas Theater, and may have escorted LEE Oswald out the rear of the theater. During author James Douglas's 2007 interview with theater concessionaire Butch Burroughs, Burroughs said that he saw two different people arrested in the Texas Theater. He saw (Harvey) Oswald's arrest and then, "three or four minutes later," watched as the Dallas police arrested "an Oswald lookalike." Burroughs added that the second man arrested "looked almost like Oswald, like he was his brother or something." Apparently, Butch Burroughs saw both Harvey and Lee at the Texas Theater.

Bernard Haire, owner of a hobby shop two doors east of the theater, saw the police escort a young man who he thought was LEE Oswald out the rear of the theater. Perhaps the young man in the balcony, who was identified by Deputy Sheriff Bill Courson as LEE Oswald, was this man. For the next 25 years Mr. Haire thought he had seen the arrest of Oswald. If Bernard Haire and Butch Burroughs observed "LEE" Oswald taken out the back of the theater then who, if not Captain Westbrook, was responsible for escorting him out of the back of the theater? After all, it was likely Capt. Westbrook who watched his co-conspirator, LEE Oswald, murder Tippit at 10th Patton only a half hour earlier. After he was taken out the rear of the theater, someone (perhaps Croy) then drove LEE Oswald to a two-tone blue 1957 Plymouth that was parked nearby. Croy told the Warren Commission that after leaving 10th & Patton he drove by the Texas Theater (how convenient).

[Tom Neal]

I've never gotten the impression that LEE Oswald would have be described as being chunky/overweight.

The shooter stayed in plain sight during his getaway, rather than running down the alley between the houses. He never attempted to hide his face or his gun and even looked straight into people's faces. Unless you are trying to be recognized why would you do this? Yet none of the shooter descriptions that I've encountered appear to describe LHO or someone who could be mistaken for him.

Because of that, I'd like to make a compilation of descriptions given by all the witnesses, to see how strong the evidence is that the short guy was overweight. And also to see if the guy running toward the theater was the tall or the short guy.

Do you have such a list? Or know where I can find a compilation of Tippit-killer testimonies?

I'm not aware of any such database. It is of course a fine idea. I'm still discovering how many things like this have either never been done, are have been kept in personal files only.

So far I've been impressed by [Files'] story. The one problem I've personally had with Files' story is the part out his friend, Gary Marlow, shooting Tippit. However, when I listened to Acquilla Clemmons' story about the tall guy she witnessed, Marlow came to mind. He was a tall guy. Files said that Marlow was sent to kill Oswald. Something went wrong and he ended up killing Tippit instead.

I don't find Files credible. The parts of his evolving story that match other stories only appear after the that specific info is well known. What bothers me the most about files is all the "high-profile" names he assigns to the shooters. Would well-known people, who were not known as hitmen put themselves at risk of exposure as Files claims? How he claims he was selected as a shooter seems unlikely at best.

Now, let me add one more part of James Files story. He says that mobster Johnny Roselli was sent to Dallas early in the morning of 11/22/63 to announce that the plot had been called off. (This is corroborated by CIA contract pilot Tosh Plumlee, who flew Roselli from Miami to the Dallas area early that morning.)

Keep us apprised of your progress compiling the witness statements -- including the sources you used. This way, hopefully no source will be overlooked. Jim mentions some interesting stuff from Hosty's "Assignment Oswald" which surprises me as a source for Tippit info.

Tom

IIRC Files was not the original source of this idea. Do you think he was?

[Tom Neal]

Here are a map and an aerial shot prepared by John and David Josephs to help make this stuff clearer.

Hope this helps!

Thanks for the maps, Jim!

What is your opinion as to why JDT was seen in this area so often that many neighbors believed he lived in that area? A local girlfriend?

Tom

[Jim Hargrove]

The shooter stayed in plain sight during his getaway, rather than running down the alley between the houses. He never attempted to hide his face or his gun and even looked straight into people's faces. Unless you are trying to be recognized why would you do this? Yet none of the shooter descriptions that I've encountered appear to describe LHO or someone who could be mistaken for him.

The guy closest to the shooting with the best view of it was Domingo Benavides.

Mr. BELIN. You used the name Oswald. How did you know this man was

Oswald?

Mr. BENAVIDES. From the pictures I had seen. It looked like a guy, resembled

the guy. That was the reason I figured it was Oswald.

He described a man who was Belin's height (5'10") wearing a light tan jacket. But he also described the back of his head, and the hairline at back clearly did not match classic "Oswald's." Benavides' story, if you haven't read it recently, is pretty fascinating.

Also, Tom, can you briefly tell me how to do the mutltiple quotes on this forum? I'd like to do some but can't figure out how to do it.

Hope the news out of Orlando is better for the next decade or so.

EDIT: Ooops! I should have said that Benavides had the best view of the shooting other than Westbrook and Croy.

Edited June 18, 2016 by Jim Hargrove

[Sandy Larsen]

Now, let me add one more part of James Files story. He says that mobster Johnny Roselli was sent to Dallas early in the morning of 11/22/63 to announce that the plot had been called off. (This is corroborated by CIA contract pilot Tosh Plumlee, who flew Roselli from Miami to the Dallas area early that morning.)

Keep us apprised of your progress compiling the witness statements -- including the sources you used. This way, hopefully no source will be overlooked. Jim mentions some interesting stuff from Hosty's "Assignment Oswald" which surprises me as a source for Tippit info.

Tom

IIRC Files was not the original source of this idea. Do you think he was?

Tom,

I don't know about Files being a source of this. I just know that when I was researching this a couple days ago I came across the info that Roselli went to Dallas in the early morning of 11/22/63. Then later I came across the info that Tosh Plumlee had claimed to have taken Roselli to Dallas by airplane early that morning. I don't remember now why, but I got the impression that the two corroborated each other. But now, it seems that one may have been formulated from the other. I don't know.

A few minutes after reading those two items, I recalled that Files had claimed that the assassination had been called off by someone higher up in the mob. I wondered if that was Roselli. I checked Wim's website and found that it was indeed Roselli, and that Roselli had gone to Dallas personally to call it off... this according to Files.

BTW, are you suggesting Hosty's Assignment Oswald as a potential source for getting Tippit witness information? (I don't know what Hosty's Assignment Oswald is.)

[Tom Neal]

He described a man who was Belin's height (5'10") wearing a light tan jacket. But he also described the back of his head, and the hairline at back clearly did not match classic "Oswald's." Benavides' story, if you haven't read it recently, is pretty fascinating.

Interesting that as the closest witness to the murder, Benavides was not brought in to view LHO in the lineup. Are you referring to the shooting death of his brother in 1965?

Also, Tom, can you briefly tell me how to do the mutltiple quotes on this forum?

Glad to:

• Click on "Quote"
• In the message box that opens, click the symbol in the upper left corner to enter full edit mode
• highlight the desired text:

[quote name="Jim Hargrove" post="330550" timestamp="1466261057"]

• control+c to copy this text
• move the cursor to the line ABOVE the text that you want to be quoted
• control+v to past this text
• move the cursor to the line BELOW the text that you want to be quoted
• add the following:

[/quote]

This is the code per the above:

[quote name="Jim Hargrove" post="330550" timestamp="1466261057"]
This is the text that you want quoted.
[/quote]

This is how the message will appear when posted:

This is the text that you want quoted.

Or if you only want the Quote Box without the name and timestamp:

[quote]
This is the text that you want quoted.
[/quote]

This is how the message will appear when posted:

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If you have any problems with this, just LMK.

Hope the news out of Orlando is better for the next decade or so.

Thanks, Jim!

Tom

Edited June 20, 2016 by Tom Neal

[Tom Neal]

I came across the info that Roselli went to Dallas in the early morning of 11/22/63. Then later I came across the info that Tosh Plumlee had claimed to have taken Roselli to Dallas by airplane early that morning. I don't remember now why, but I got the impression that the two corroborated each other. But now, it seems that one may have been formulated from the other. I don't know.

It's been a LONG, long, time since I studied James Files, so I don't recall all the details, but unless some new info has come to light I don't find him credible.

A few minutes after reading those two items, I recalled that Files had claimed that the assassination ad been called off by someone higher up in the mob. I wondered if that was Roselli. I checked Wim's website and found that it was indeed Roselli, and that Roselli had gone to Dallas personally to call it off... this according to Files.

Roselli was a full-fledged CIA employee, more CIA than mob, although you never can break completely from the mob. Roselli was tight with Bill Harvey, who I believe was heavily involved in the assassination. IMO, if anyone called off the assassination it was CIA, not the mob. I'm sure Roselli kept the mob apprised of the plans, but I don't think they exerted any control over the event itself. I don't see any issues with Plumlee's scenario, but I don't think this originated with Files. I think he appropriated it.

BTW, are you suggesting Hosty's Assignment Oswald as a potential source for getting Tippit witness information? (I don't know what Hosty's Assignment Oswald is.)

Yes. Jim Hargrove mentioned Hosty's "take" on the wallet found at the scene of JDT's murder from the 1996 book "Assignment Oswald" written by Hosty himself. I thought I had it, but I don't. The FBI version of Tippit's murder may provide some interesting ideas.

[Jim Hargrove]

Interesting that as the closest witness to the murder, Benavides was not brought in to view LHO in the lineup. Are you referring to the shooting death of his brother in 1965?

Yes, yet another suspicious death. To me, though, the most interesting thing about Benavides’ testimony was that he seemed to genuinely believe the killer looked like the news images he saw of “Lee Harvey Oswald.”

To those of us who know viscerally that there was something profoundly wrong with the WC’s version of both murders that day, observations like Benavides’ can be difficult to accept. To me, though, it’s just more evidence that the guy killed by Jack Ruby was set up to take the fall for both crimes by a fellow who looked enough like him to fool many observers, like those at the Sports Drone rifle range, Downtown Lincoln/Mercury, Southland Hotel, and Alice Texas. Obviously, anyone with at least half a brain who planned to assassinate a U.S. president would simply have to create a patsy. Otherwise, the search would be relentless and the plotters would eventually be captured.

Glad to:

• Click on "Quote"
• In the message box that opens, click the symbol in the upper left corner to enter full edit mode
• highlight the desired text:

[quote name="Jim Hargrove" post="330550" timestamp="1466261057"]

• control+c to copy this text
• move the cursor to the line ABOVE the text that you want to be quoted
• control+v to past this text
• move the cursor to the line BELOW the text that you want to be quoted
• add the following:

[/quote]

This is the code per the above:

[quote name="Jim Hargrove" post="330550" timestamp="1466261057"]
This is the text that you want quoted.
[/quote]

This is how the message will appear when posted:

This is the text that you want quoted.

Or if you only want the Quote Box without the name and timestamp:

[quote]
This is the text that you want quoted.
[/quote]

This is how the message will appear when posted:

This is the text that you want quoted.

If you have any problems with this, just LMK.

Works like a charm. (The reveal codes icon at upper left was the secret that eluded me.) Thank you!

[Tom Neal]

Works like a charm. (The reveal codes icon at upper left was the secret that eluded me.) Thank you!

Jim,

Glad it worked for you.

If the message displays with the quote boxes merged together, and the quote tags are visible, scroll to the bottom of the message in the editor. You will probably find a bunch of extra 'end quote' tags supplied unnecessarily by the editor - it likes to do that on its own.

Tom

Edited June 21, 2016 by Tom Neal

[Tom Neal]

Yes, yet another suspicious death. To me, though, the most interesting thing about Benavides testimony was that he seemed to genuinely believe the killer looked like the news images he saw of Lee Harvey Oswald.

When he testified in March(?) 1964, Benavides even referred to the shooter as "Oswald" for the reason you stated. His brother wasn't shot dead until Feb(?) 1965. Thus, there was no need to coerce Benavides. So why kill his brother in a case of mistaken identity?

Had Benavides changed his mind about the identity of the shooter?

Tom

[Sandy Larsen]

A few minutes after reading those two items, I recalled that Files had claimed that the assassination ad been called off by someone higher up in the mob. I wondered if that was Roselli. I checked Wim's website and found that it was indeed Roselli, and that Roselli had gone to Dallas personally to call it off... this according to Files.

Roselli was a full-fledged CIA employee, more CIA than mob, although you never can break completely from the mob. Roselli was tight with Bill Harvey, who I believe was heavily involved in the assassination. IMO, if anyone called off the assassination it was CIA, not the mob. I'm sure Roselli kept the mob apprised of the plans, but I don't think they exerted any control over the event itself. I don't see any issues with Plumlee's scenario, but I don't think this originated with Files. I think he appropriated it.

As I read what I did about Roselli and his being in Dallas to call off the assassination, it never occurred to me that it was the mob calling it off. But it did occur to me that if Roselli truly was there to call it off, his message was meant specifically for mob participants.

I'm certainly not convinced Files story is real. But I haven't seen anything yet that makes me conclude it isn't. As I mentioned earlier, the biggest problem for me is the part of the story where his friend, Marlow, accidentally bumped off the police officer. Which I take as being Tippit.

I originally did have a hard time accepting that Nicolleti had chosen Files to be a shooter. I mean, Files was just a kid. But later that didn't bother me so much, after I had reread the story more carefully. Upon rereading that part, it appears that Nicolleti was merely making a last minute decision to add Files as a backup shooter.

[Ron Ecker]

I originally did have a hard time accepting that Nicolleti had chosen Files to be a shooter. I mean, Files was just a kid. But later that didn't bother me so much, after I had reread the story more carefully. Upon rereading that part, it appears that Nicolleti was merely making a last minute decision to add Files as a backup shooter.

In addition to the bit about Files being chosen at the last minute as a shooter, I recall that there was also a problem with the weapon that Files claimed he used. It's been years since I read his story, but it was definitely less than credible.