Anatomy Of The Second Floor Lunch Room Encounter

[Ron Bulman]

5 hours ago, Thomas Graves said:

 

Bart,

It's fascinating that the woman Karen Hellene Scranton (ne Westbrook) identifies fifty-five years after the fact in the Z-frame as her colleague and close friend "red-haired Gloria Calvery" looks SO much like (Native American) Stella May Jacob's colleague Gloria Jeanne Holt did in her 1963 high school photograph, don't you think?  Which Robin Unger was so kind to post on this thread about a year ago but which has since, unfortunately, "gone missing"?  (I've done a little "research" and determined that Holt attended Woodrow Wilson High School in Dallas, which high school was about six miles away from where she was living at the time of her FBI interview in 1964.)

It this ... Gloria Calvery ... or ... Gloria Jeanne Holt ... in this frame from a Darnell clip?

 

If it's Calvery, where are her stylin' glasses?

 

 

By the way, does the gal in the middle look anything like the Gloria Calvery in this photo?  

 

 

 

 

 

 

This is Robin's post from April 14, 2017:

 

Are you saying that Gloria Jeanne Holt was working at the TSBD in 1963

when this 1963 year book shows that she was in school in 1963 ?

 

A confusing picture Tommy.  No matter who the lady in the middle is she's obviously distressed, from something she's seen, to the point of almost crying.  Yet the woman to the right is looking at the middle one cynically.  Why, in the background does it look like a woman is grabbing the butt of a man in a suit? 

Edited March 17, 2018 by Ron Bulman

[Thomas Graves]

9 hours ago, Ron Bulman said:

A confusing picture Tommy.  No matter who the lady in the middle is she's obviously distressed, from something she's seen, to the point of almost crying.  Yet the woman to the right is looking at the middle one cynically.  Why, in the background does it look like a woman is grabbing the butt of a man in a suit? 

 

Ron,

With all due respect, you certainly are.

Regardless, if you could see the Woodrow Wilson High School (in Dallas) photos of Gloria Jeanne Holt that Robin posted, you would realize (as did several other members about a year ago) that the gal in the middle is Holt.

--  Tommy 

 

Edited March 17, 2018 by Thomas Graves

[Guest]

https://www.findagrave.com/memorial/149407954/gloria-jean-calvery

how does Brian Doyle reconcile running woman with this link above.

Hi Brian 

Edited March 17, 2018 by Bart Kamp

[Thomas Graves]

On 3/17/2018 at 4:26 AM, Bart Kamp said:

https://www.findagrave.com/memorial/149407954/gloria-jean-calvery

how does Brian Doyle reconcile running woman with this link above.

  .....

 

Bart,

 

I'm not sure who the "Linda" is who posted that "obituary" (probably Linda Giovanna Zambanini), but the one little mistake she made in it was saying that researchers had for many years confused Calvery with a Black woman.  As Sandy Larsen and have shown in another thread, the dark- complected woman Calvery was confused with (by Thierry Speth, Don Roberdeaux, and Robin Unger) was none other than Stella Mae Jacob, a self-described Native American, who told the FBI that she was standing down on Elm Street proper, watching the motorcade with two colleagues, Gloria Jeanne Holt and Sharron Nelson (ne Simmons).

 

 

Left to Right:  (Native American) Stella Mae Jacob, Gloria Jeanne Holt, and Sharron Nelson (ne Simmons)

 

 

 

(BTW, I agree with you that that lithe-looking "Running Woman on Elm Street Extension" was not Gloria Jean Calvery.)

 

--  Tommy 

Edited March 22, 2018 by Thomas Graves

[Thomas Graves]

23 hours ago, Thomas Graves said:

 

Bart,

It's fascinating that the woman Karen Hellene Scranton (ne Westbrook) identifies fifty-five years after the fact in the Z-frame as her colleague and close friend "red-haired Gloria Calvery" looks SO much like (Native American) Stella May Jacob's colleague Gloria Jeanne Holt did in her 1963 high school photograph, don't you think?  Which Robin Unger was so kind to post on this thread about a year ago but which has since, unfortunately, "gone missing"?  (I've done a little "research" and determined that Holt attended Woodrow Wilson High School in Dallas, which high school was about six miles away from where she was living at the time of her FBI interview in 1964.)

It it ... Gloria Calvery ... or ... Gloria Jeanne Holt ... in this frame from a Darnell clip?

 

If it IS Calvery, where are her stylin', ever-present glasses?

 

 

By the way, does the gal in the middle look anything like the Gloria Calvery in this photo?  

 

 

 

 

 

This is Robin's post from April 14, 2017:

 

Are you saying that Gloria Jeanne Holt was working at the TSBD in 1963

when this 1963 year book shows that she was in school in 1963 ?

 

 

High school photo added and bumped.

--  Tommy 

Edited March 17, 2018 by Thomas Graves

[Thomas Graves]

On 4/13/2017 at 12:21 PM, Thomas Graves said:

Bart,

In addition to Harvey and Lee and the Two Marguerites, I guess we're going to have to make room for The Two Loveladys, too!

Note dressed-in-black "Big Girl" Gloria Calvery continuing to talk with Lovelady as Calvery's dressed-in-white colleague tries to pull her up the steps:

--  Tommy

Bumped for Sandy Larsen, who's been kind of inactive for the last 20 hours or so and may not have seen the most recent posts on this thread.

--  Tommy 

[Guest]

My review of that interview with Karen Westbrook Scranton

http://www.prayer-man.com/living-history-with-karen-westbrook-scranton/

[Thomas Graves]

2 hours ago, Bart Kamp said:

My review of that interview with Karen Westbrook Scranton

http://www.prayer-man.com/living-history-with-karen-westbrook-scranton/

 

 

Bart,

It's understandable that fifty-five years after the assassination, Karen Westbrook Scranton can't positively identify the dark-haired, brown coat-wearing gal (whom Sandy Larsen and I have identified as self-described Native American, Stella Mae Jacob).

It's also understandable that, according to the moderator, Gloria Calvery's own son thinks, in so many words, that Westbrook is mistaken in her "positive" identification of his mother as the "red haired?" young woman in the Z-frame.

 

When I look at the face of the light blue headscarf-wearing gal (your "Karen Westbrook") in the short Darnell clip (a frame of which I've posted below), she doesn't resemble very much the Karen Westbrook Scranton in the interview. IMHO.

The young woman with the blue headscarf I'm referring to here (probably Jacob's colleague,  Sharron Nelson, ne Simmons) seems to have a longer, narrower face than Westbrook-Scranton has.

 

 

--  Tommy 

Edited March 18, 2018 by Thomas Graves

[Guest]

I don't know if this pic. from Darnell is the 3 in Z.

Bottom line for me is she knew who was standing right beside her, and described her as a redhead. The pic of her engagement is multiple generations from a xerox, and red in b&w becomes black is not a good comparison piece either. Her high school pic used also in her obituary makes a lot more sense to compare with.

 don't care much for Stella Mae Jacob, only that she never made it back inside the TSBD and left. She is not on Revill's list, nor is Gloria Calvery and nor is Karen Westbrook.

Some roll call.....

[Thomas Graves]

20 hours ago, Bart Kamp said:

I don't know if this pic. from Darnell is the 3 in Z.

Bottom line for me is she knew who was standing right beside her, and described her as a redhead. The pic of her engagement is multiple generations from a xerox, and red in b&w becomes black is not a good comparison piece either. Her high school pic used also in her obituary makes a lot more sense to compare with.

 don't care much for Stella Mae Jacob, only that she never made it back inside the TSBD and left. She is not on Revill's list, nor is Gloria Calvery and nor is Karen Westbrook.

Some roll call.....

Bart,

How do you know that Gloria Jeanne Holt didn't have similarly colored hair?

Also, I find it interesting that Westbrook equivocated on whether or not the other young woman in that little group was Carol Reed.  Which makes me think that when Westbrook was looking at the stature/physique of that brown coat-wearing woman in the Z-frame, and at her dark "fluffed-up" hair, it didn't remind her of the Carol Reed she had known.

--  TG 

PS  Something else I just thought of --  If Westbrook is correct that that threesome in the Z-frame is comprised of herself, Calvery, and Reed, then where is Karan Hicks?  Their FBI statements said that she was with them.
 

Would you agree with me, Bart, that the woman wearing the brown coat in the Z-frame was dark complected? (Obviously, you can't see her face in the Z-film, so one reference her in those two frames from the Darnell clip which shows the three gals, dark-complected Stella Mae Jacob, crying Gloria Holt, and headscarf-wearing Sharon Simmons)  walking back towards the TSBD.)

Were either Carol Reed or Karan Hicks dark-complected and dark-haired like that?

Edited March 21, 2018 by Thomas Graves

[Guest]

I don't know Tommy, and I cannot tell she is dark complected.

It does not make much of a difference.

Running woman is a fresh 'new' mystery and so are the women going up the stairs on the left in Darnell.

[Thomas Graves]

3 hours ago, Bart Kamp said:

I don't know Tommy, and I cannot tell she is dark complected.

It does not make much of a difference.

Running woman is a fresh 'new' mystery and so are the women going up the stairs on the left in Darnell.

 

Bart,

 

(from left to right in the Jimmy Darnell frame, below)

 

NOT "Maybe Carol Reed," Gloria Calvery, and Karen Westbrook.

 

NOR Thierry Speth's, Robin Unger's and Don Roberdeau's "Gloria Calvary, Karan Hicks, and Carol Reed"

 

But: (Native American) Stella Mae Jacob, Gloria Jeanne Holt, and Sharon Simmons. 

 

 

 

 

The Gloria Calvery you've never been able to find in the films and photos is the largish girl standing directly to the left of John Templin in the Z-Film.

 

--  TG

 

PS   The following FBI statements are in alphabetical order.  Scroll down to the ones by Jacob, Holt, and Simmons.  

https://www.history-matters.com/archive/jfk/wc/wcvols/wh22/pdf/WH22_CE_1381.pdf

 

Note:  A simple mistake was made in their statements.  They weren't standing on the south side of Elm Street (i.e., on the grass between Elm Street and Main Street), but on the north side (i.e., on the Grassy Knoll side of Elm, not far from the Stemmons Freeway Sign).

 

PPS   Apparently Sandy Larsen and I have finally convinced Don Roberdeau about Jacob, Holt, and Simmons, because he's finally positioned them correctly on his map.  (But he has Calvery mis-labled as "J. Newman")

 

 

 

Edited March 21, 2018 by Thomas Graves

[Guest]

Tommy you don't quit do you?

This has fak all to do with the 2nd fl. enc. The reason I posted this bit in here is because it disputed the running woman and also the ladies going up the stairs. I don't don't give a toss about the rest as they are all dead ends, but no let's discuss this for another 45 pages..........

[David Josephs]

Bart... was Gloria a very tall woman?  Sure seems that way in this comparison

I have them both in the same place, just moved Baker over ...   if she was a tall woman, it adds a bit more confirmation....

Nicely done  

[Thomas Graves]

8 hours ago, Bart Kamp said:

Tommy you don't quit do you?

This has fak all to do with the 2nd fl. enc. The reason I posted this bit in here is because it disputed the running woman and also the ladies going up the stairs. I don't don't give a toss about the rest as they are all dead ends, but no let's discuss this for another 45 pages..........

 

Bart,

 

Brian Doyle just now contacted me on FB and said that he had spoken with Gloria Calvery's son.  He said that Mr. Calvery referred him to Betzner 3, and that Sandy Larsen and I were correct in our identification of his mother as the tall woman, above the Queen Mary's windshield, who is wearing a black blouse and a black headscarf, and that she is the same woman (i.e., his mother Gloria Calvery) who was "caught" in Darnel-Couch on the TSBD steps about 20 seconds after the assassination, and whom Sandy Larsen and I (and Robert Prudhomme) have been claiming was talking to Billy Lovelady in that Couch-Darnell clip.

 

https://www.jfkassassinationgallery.com/displayimage.php?pid=1267&fullsize=1

 

--  TG 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited March 22, 2018 by Thomas Graves