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10 hours ago, Sandy Larsen said:


LOL

(That is a joke, right? Because Gerry was a bit confused?.)

Gerry,

In the Couch/Darnell clip, the old consensus was that, after the shooting, Frazier remained standing on the steps (the top step near the handrail), and Shelley and Lovelady are seen walking together down the Elm Street extension.

However, more and more people are now realizing that Lovelady can still be seen on the steps after the shooting. So Frazier and Lovelady are still on the steps in the Couch/Darnell clip. We don't know who those two guys walking down the extension are. And Shelley has probably gone back inside to call his wife (in accordance with his first-day affidavit).

Researcher Bart Kamp has a vested interest in the old consensus, as it is a part of his "Anatomy of a Second Floor Encounter" thesis. So he still argues against the new reality.

(Disclosure: Tommy and I are proponents of the "new reality." The reason we are is because we found the missing link that virtually proves that it is Lovelady we see on the steps. The missing link is a girl by the name of Gloria Calvery. Lovelady testified that she came to the steps BEFORE HE LEFT. Tommy and I have identified Gloria Calvery, and in Couch/Darnell we see her talking to Lovelady face-to-face.

(Note:The inset is a frame from the Zapruder film.)

calvery_talking_to_lovelady_zpsw70ublxy.

 

Sandy,

Excellent post, imho.  (lol)

I think it's important for members and guests to realize, as you've so ably pointed out above, that I (with your technical and moral support) spotted the "clincher" clothing-related clue that proves "Woman In Black" is Calvery.  To wit: she's wearing a dress that's lighter-colored than her black blouse and black headscarf, and it's "patterned", just like the dress"Big Girl" is wearing down on Elm Street during the motorcade.

Keep up the good fight if I go away "on vacation" soon, and do try to get around to reading State Secret some day, won't you?

--  Tommy :sun

 

Edited by Thomas Graves

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Sandy,

A final thought.  Wouldn't it be something if Bart's "Shelley and Lovelady Walking Down Elm Street Extension" turned out to be the two guys "Detective Roger Craig" is watching as they walk back the other way on the E.S.E. in the Murray photo, about ten minutes after the assassination?

--  Tommy :sun

Edited by Thomas Graves

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9 hours ago, Thomas Graves said:

Sandy,

Excellent post, imho.  (lol)

I think it's important for members and guests to realize, as you've so ably pointed out above, that I (with your moral support) spotted the "clincher" clothing-related clue that proves "Woman In Black" is Calvery.  To wit: she's wearing a dress that's lighter-colored than her black blouse and black headscarf, and it's "patterned", just like the dress"Big Girl" is wearing down on Elm Street during the motorcade.

Keep up the good fight if I go away "on vacation" soon, and do try to get around to reading State Secret some day, won't you?

--  Tommy :sun

 


Tommy,

I think it is also important that we showed that there was only one woman among the TSBD spectators who was wearing all white, including a white scarf. She is seen in the Zapruder film standing near the woman we had identified as Gloria Calvery. That she was wearing all white virtually proves that she is the very same person as "Woman in White" seen on the TSBD steps near Billy Lovelady in the Darnell clip.

The significance of this find is twofold. First it proved that enough time had lapsed for the woman to have returned to the steps by the time Darnell caught her on film. (The time from the shooting to that portion of the film is said to be only 30 seconds.) This meant that Gloria Calvery too had enough time to return to the steps. In fact, that is what got us looking for Gloria Calvery on the steps! At that time we suspected that "Woman in Black" was Gloria Calvery. After all, she was talking to Billy Lovelady, a fact which is consistent with his early statements.

The other significance of the "Woman in White" find was in the fact that she is seen standing near Gloria Calvery in the Zapruder film, AND again ~30 seconds later in Darnell with "Woman in Black," the woman we suspected of being Gloria Calvery. This gave substantial support to the idea that the woman on the steps was indeed Gloria Calvery. Because apparently she and "Woman in White" were friends. Or at least friendly coworkers. (As supported by their affidavits.)

The clincher, as Tommy put it, is when he noticed a sliver of time in the Darnell clip where the skirt of the woman we thought was Gloria Calvery could be seen. We looked closely at a still frame and found that the skirt did indeed match Gloria Calvery's skirt, as seen in the Zapruder film.

With that discovery, and with Lovelady's early statements backing up what we see in the two films, we felt confident in declaring that we had indeed identified Gloria Calvery there on the steps with Billy Lovelady. (BTW, Tommy gets most the credit.)


(Note:The inset is a frame from the Zapruder film.)

calvery_talking_to_lovelady_zpsw70ublxy.

 

Edited by Sandy Larsen

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9 hours ago, Thomas Graves said:

Sandy,

A final thought.  Wouldn't it be something if Bart's "Shelley and Lovelady Walking Down Elm Street Extension" turned out to be the two guys "Detective Roger Craig" is watching as they walk back the other way on the E.S.E. in the Murray photo, about ten minutes after the assassination?

--  Tommy :sun


Oh, I think that would be funny!

But alas, the timing is all wrong. Unless the two guys hung around railroad yard for a while. (BTW, I don't recall the significance of that observation.)

 

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39 minutes ago, Sandy Larsen said:


Oh, I think that would be funny!

But alas, the timing is all wrong. Unless the two guys hung around railroad yard for a while. (BTW, I don't recall the significance of that observation.)

 

Researchers have speculated over the years that one of those two guys (way way back there behind the retaining wall) whom "Detective Roger Craig" (I don't think that's Craig, btw) appears to be looking at in the Murray photo was the "Oswald-looking guy" whom Craig claimed to have witnessed running down the grass and getting into a 1959-ish Rambler station wagon on Elm Street. 

--  Tommy :sun

Edited by Thomas Graves

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2 hours ago, Thomas Graves said:
3 hours ago, Sandy Larsen said:


Oh, I think that would be funny!

But alas, the timing is all wrong. Unless the two guys hung around railroad yard for a while. (BTW, I don't recall the significance of that observation.)

 

Researchers have speculated over the years that one of those two guys (way way back there behind the retaining wall) whom "Detective Roger Craig" (I don't think that's Craig, btw) appears to be looking at in the Murray photo was the "Oswald-looking guy" whom Craig claimed to have witnessed running down the grass and getting into a 1959-ish Rambler station wagon on Elm Street. 

--  Tommy :sun


Oh, I think that would be funny!  Now that would be something!

 

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Sounds good, Bart.  I have a question.  Does the "Lovelady on the steps" discussion above in any way mess up PM?  Obviously, if down the road we can confirm 100% that it's LHO in the corner, confirm by some other means (like seeing the original TV footage and confirming it's him), then it doesn't matter if BL is on the steps or down on that extension road.

But until that happens, how does BL on the steps as detailed above effect the overall bearings of PM?

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These wishy washy beliefs ...............

Lovelady left with Shelley immediately after the shooting, period!

And no it would not have any effect at all since PM is still in the same position in Wiegman and Darnell,

And it does matter since they lied in their WC testimony to discredit Victoria Adams from a timing perspective.

 

 

Edited by Bart Kamp

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Posted Feb 2016. Last post on page.

Mr. BALL. Did Gloria come up?

Mr. MOLINA. Yes, she came. I was in the lobby standing there and she came in with this other girl.

Molina, who we know where he is at in Darnell was standing in the lobby when she came in.

 

Sandy Larsen's and Tom Graves's Calvery observation is worthless.

You have no idea who these people are coming up those stairs.

I think Patricia Ann  Donaldson/Lawrence can be assumed to be going up on those steps with her black head scarf, while Lucy Whittaker is still standing in the foreground and has barely moved from her space in Wiegman..

But I am more interested in the man and the woman at the bottom of the steps......

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I'm interested too, Bart.  Nothing is wishy washy here neither. You have to look at that film and wonder if the shiny bald-headed guy is not BL, then who is it?  The same people who were standing there in Altgens all seem to be standing there in the later film,  The one obvious one was the black guy who was to the left of BL just prior to the shooting - he seems to be gone.

You yourself have said that no oddballs were around those steps, meaning the main people were in that immediate area were employees of the building. So there couldn't have been within a matter of about 55 seconds some completely different person who looks like BL would have hurriedly walked up to where those steps were.

Also, I have to go by what I see in that footage - it looks like BL. However, the key here is even if it is, PM is still a reality. We'll just never really know until we see a pristine film frame from the TV station - if it ever happens.

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7 hours ago, Bart Kamp said:

Posted Feb 2016. Last post on page.

Mr. BALL. Did Gloria come up?

Mr. MOLINA. Yes, she came. I was in the lobby standing there and she came in with this other girl.

Molina, who we know where he is at in Darnell was standing in the lobby when she came in.

 

Sandy Larsen's and Tom Graves's Calvery observation is worthless.

You have no idea who these people are coming up those stairs.

I think Patricia Ann  Donaldson/Lawrence can be assumed to be going up on those steps with her black head scarf, while Lucy Whittaker is still standing in the foreground and has barely moved from her space in Wiegman..

But I am more interested in the man and the woman at the bottom of the steps......


Bart,

Please show us a photo or frame of Patricia Ann  Donaldson/Lawrence taken as the motorcade passed by, so we can see if her clothing matches that of the Woman in Black. Since it is your belief they are one and the same. (Thomas and I have already done this for the woman we have identified as Gloria Calvery).

Also, what about the Woman in White, who is apparently a companion of Woman in Black. Please show us a frame or photo of that woman as the motorcade passed by so we can see if her clothing matches. (Thomas and I have done that for this woman too and found that she is a companion of the woman we identified as Gloria Calvery.)

The Zapruder film shows these two women together watching the motorcade. The Darnell clip shows these two women together on the steps ~30 seconds after the shooting. In her FBI interview, Gloria names two companions being with her during the motorcade. Thomas and I say that the Woman in White is one of these.

The Darnell clip shows Woman in White (Gloria Calvery's companion) pulling on Woman in Black's (Gloria Calvery) arm, as if to say, "let's go!" These are the two women Molina was referring to when he said, "Yes, she [Gloria Calvery] came. I was in the lobby standing there and she came in with this other girl."

It all fits like a glove.

Again, please show photos of these two women during the time of the motorcade so we can see if their clothing matches what we see in Darnell. I doubt you can do so.

 

Edited by Sandy Larsen

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You have nothing Sandy Larsen and Thomas Graves besides assumption.

You disregard

Frazier's testimony

Molina's testimony

Shelley's first statement

Lovelady's statement from the FBI on Nov 22

The still from the Couch film

You cannot point out Lovelady with his dark hair wearing his shirt standing on those steps in Darnell, the blond guy is only a candidate due to wishful thinking.

 

Patricia Ann Donaldson, dude have you ever heard of Google????

Right next to Lupe Whittaker in Wiegman.

If anyone should be a candidate going up those steps, it is her.

AdS8mXF.png

wiegman4.png

 

Edited by Bart Kamp

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7 hours ago, Bart Kamp said:

Patricia Ann Donaldson, dude have you ever heard of Google????

Right next to Lupe Whittaker in Wiegman.

If anyone should be a candidate going up those steps, it is her.

AdS8mXF.png

wiegman4.png

 

 

Wrong!

The clothes don't match!


Woman in White (below) is wearing all white, including scarf.

Woman in Black (below) is wearing all very dark colors, EXCEPT a grayish colored skirt.
     (Not gray in the color version of the frame, of course.)


Thomas and I have identified both women. You have identified neither and appear to be in denial.

 

(Note:The inset is a frame from the Zapruder film.)

calvery_talking_to_lovelady_zpsw70ublxy.

 

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