Anatomy Of The Second Floor Lunch Room Encounter

[David Von Pein]

1 hour ago, Bart Kamp said:

Bookhout and Fritz, filthy liars indeed.

Thanks, Bart. I needed that.

Edited January 29, 2017 by David Von Pein

[Alistair Briggs]

40 minutes ago, Bart Kamp said:

Frazier stood there and he must have seen this, hell he would have felt it more than likely. 

I disagree that he must have seen it. Don't get me wrong though, I do find it very strange, if it happened that way, that he didn't see it.

40 minutes ago, Bart Kamp said:

And how does Truly going in rhyme with him admitting talking to Brennan?

For clarification, apart from the newspaper story written by Roy Bode, what else points to Truly 'talking' to Brennan?

*One thing of interest is some of the people putting forward the case for the 2nd floor encounter not happening disagree on other points too. Point in case, the time Shelley/Lovelady left the steps - I read on your website that they can be seen in the Darnell clip having left the steps (30 seconds after the shots), yet others (as you know) say it's not them and they didn't leave the steps till 3 minutes after the shots. Both are putting forward that the 2nd floor encounter didn't happen.

Anyway, Bart, just so I can understand your own point of view, what's the ultimate goal though? What is the end result? To prove Oswald's innocence? To prove that Prayer Man is Oswald? I only ask because I have managed to 'reconcile' all the WC testimony into a coherent timeline (whether right or wrong) without the need for any of them to be 'lying' or having things 'added' to their testimony, and yet even with that I can still have Oswald as Prayer Man, or in the Domino Room, or indeed in the 2nd floor lunchroom. (with certain limitations of course.   )

Regards

 

[Sandy Larsen]

Bart,

Can Prayer Man be seen out on the steps before the shooting took place? Or are all the films of him after the shooting?

[Sandy Larsen]

6 hours ago, Thomas Graves said:

Hasn't it already been established that Brennan couldn't have accurately guessed how tall the man in the window was, due to the sharp angle Brennan was viewing the sixth floor window from?

I'd heard that, due to the window being low to the floor and only being cracked open a foot or so, Brennan could not have had the view of the gunman that he claimed to have.

If Brennan saw the gunman during the shooting, wouldn't the gunman have been either squatting, kneeling, or sitting on a short box? I mean, the window sill is down near the floor, isn't it? And the window was raised open just a foot or so, wasn't it? How is it possible for Brennan to have much of a description of the gunman? It's not like the gunman was standing up, his body in plain view through the window.

(Correct me if I'm wrong, anybody. I haven't studied this at all.)

[Thomas Graves]

On 1/29/2017 at 4:34 PM, Sandy Larsen said:

I'd heard that, due to the window being low to the floor and only being cracked open a foot or so, Brennan could not have had the view of the gunman that he claimed to have.

If Brennan saw the gunman during the shooting, wouldn't the gunman have been either squatting, kneeling, or sitting on a short box? I mean, the window sill is down near the floor, isn't it? And the window was raised open just a foot or so, wasn't it? How is it possible for Brennan to have much of a description of the gunman? It's not like the gunman was standing up, his body in plain view through the window.

(Correct me if I'm wrong, anybody. I haven't studied this at all.)

Sandy,

You're right.  

Also, Bennan said the man in the window was "slender -- 165 to 175 pounds."

I wouldn't call a man who is 5' 8" to 5' 10" (see below) and weighs 170 pounds "slender."

 

http://www.kenrahn.com/JFK/History/The_deed/Brennan/Brennan_book.html

"There was nothing about this young man at first glance that seemed unusual. He appeared to be about average height, maybe 5’8” to 5’10” and of average weight, tending more toward the slender side. I’m not good at guessing ages, but he seemed to be 25–35."

 

Athletic maybe but not slender

Regardless, Oswald weighed only 131 pounds at autopsy, iirc.

--  Tommy

Edited March 18, 2018 by Thomas Graves

[Larry Hancock]

Correct Sandy, the shooter could not have have been firing from his feet; the section of the window that was open would not allow that since the windows begin only a couple of feet above the floor.  In addition if he was firing from the seated/box rest position in the official WC scenario and then stood up he would have been well back behind a fairly dusty/dirty window and not clearly visible. Only if he was right up against the glass standing up could a figure have been seen; you can evaluate that by comparing other figures that can be seen in windows on the lower floors. There are other problems with the whole WC scenario including the fact that shooting at a box rest position would not leave a rifle barrel hanging way out the window to be seen. Beyond that, there were some good photo studies done quite awhile ago, on the Lancer forum probably, that raised some real issues of where Brennan was looking at the time of the shooting and pointed out the contrast between that and the way he appears in the recreation photos done afterwards. Personally I suspect Brennan would not have lasted more than ten minutes on the witness stand in the face of a good attorney.

[Sandy Larsen]

That's a good point, Larry, that the shooter would have stood up after finishing his shots. It's also a good point that Brennan wouldn't have been able to see the shooter from the outside. Well, I think you're right anyway. I don't have experience looking at windows on multilevel buildings, but I know for sure on shorter buildings that you can't really see through a window from outside during the day with the sun shining. The reflection of light off the window from every direction prevents it. You might be able to make out movement, maybe even the outline of a person. But certainly not a clear view of a person.

I read Brennan's lengthy account posted by Tommy a couple posts up. He doesn't even mention the shooter kneeling down and standing up. He talks as though the shooter was standing the whole time. (Note that I didn't read the whole thing... just the relevant part. And I assumed there is only one relevant part.)

[James DiEugenio]

You should hear Bob Tanenbaum talk about Brennan.  Whew.

Larry says ten minutes, with Bob, not even that long.

But alas, he was only a professional criminal prosecutor who never lost a murder case.

 

Edited January 31, 2017 by James DiEugenio

[Guest]

I have finished the update to the essay for now

35 pages extra. All in all it is pretty much a new body of  work, certain sections have been re-written as well.

Happy Easter reading!

http://www.prayer-man.com/anatomy-of-a-2nd-floor-lunchroom-encounter-updated/

 

[Thomas Graves]

On 4/13/2017 at 11:50 AM, Bart Kamp said:

  .....

 

Bart,

In addition to Harvey and Lee and the Two Marguerites, I guess we're going to have to make room for The Two Loveladys, too!

Note dressed-in-black "Big Girl" Gloria Calvery continuing to talk with Lovelady as Calvery's dressed-in-white colleague tries to pull her up the steps:

--  Tommy

Edited March 18, 2018 by Thomas Graves

[Guest]

You have to show more conclusive evidence that nullifies their first statements and the Couch pic.

That guy looks like anyone but Lovelady.
 

Baker's sidestep is even more evident with that GIF tho!

[Thomas Graves]

2 hours ago, Bart Kamp said:

 

That guy [talking with Big Girl In Black on the TSBD steps] looks like anyone but Lovelady.
 

 

Dear Bart,

How can you say that with a straight face?

You are making progress, though.

At least you didn't "pull a Billy Miller" and say, "But, but, but ... it's way too fuzzy to say 'he has no hair on his forehead, and very little on the side, and he's wearing a boldly-patterned, dark-colored shirt with a white t-shirt under it, and that he's talking with that Big Girl In Black whom that idiot Tommy Graves and his occasionally-trusty but brilliant sidekick, Sandy Larsen, identified as Gloria Calvery down on Elm Street during the motorcade.'"

There's hope for you yet.

--  Tommy

Edited April 14, 2017 by Thomas Graves

[Guest]

I thought I did not have to tell you that, since I thought it to be blatantly obvious already.

And I digress with the ID as well.

Happy Easter Tommy

[Thomas Graves]

1 hour ago, Bart Kamp said:

I thought I did not have to tell you that, since I thought it to be blatantly obvious already.

And I digress with the ID as well.

Happy Easter Tommy

Nice non-answer there, Bartie.

Likewise

--  Tommy

Edited April 14, 2017 by Thomas Graves

[Thomas Graves]

4 hours ago, Thomas Graves said:

 

"That guy [talking with Big Girl In Black on the TSBD steps] looks like anyone but Lovelady." -- B. Kamp

...................................................................................................

Dear Bart,

How can you say that with a straight face?

You are making progress, though.

At least you didn't "pull a Billy Miller" and say, "But, but, but ... it's way too fuzzy to say 'he has no hair on his forehead, and very little on the side, and he's wearing a boldly-patterned, dark-colored shirt with a white t-shirt under it, and that he's talking with that Big Girl In Black whom that abject idiot, Tommy Graves, and his occasionally-trusty-but-always-brilliant sidekick, Sandy Larsen, identified as Gloria Calvery down on Elm Street during the motorcade.'"

LOL

Yep, there's hope for you yet.

definitely definitely.

--  Tommy

 

Edited April 14, 2017 by Thomas Graves