Anatomy Of The Second Floor Lunch Room Encounter

[Guest]

In July 2016 we (that's ROKC for you) tried to get hold of Roy Truly's deleted testimony at the National Archives.

Paying 90 bucks for it to be transferred from dicta belt recording to digital format.

We were told after one month and expecting the digital copy to be sent to us that it would need to be sent to a different company (not their most trusted one which we paid the money to originally) to have it digitised, transcribed and then vetted and wait for it to be allowed to be released

 We would get an answer in Oct 2016, as said by Dan Roony at the National Archives.

We waited and waited and then lost the will to ask for the umpteenth time when we could get our hands on a copy,

Fast forward Nov 2017 and Dennis Morissette gets a copy without any hassle (cost $ 110.00) and in the end it is merely someone else reciting about 80% of Roy Truly's testimony.

What a crock.........

 

 

Edited November 28, 2017 by Bart Kamp

[Pat Speer]

14 hours ago, Bart Kamp said:

In July 2016 we (that's ROKC for you) tried to get hold of Roy Truly's deleted testimony at the National Archives.

Paying 90 bucks for it to be transferred from dicta belt recording to digital format.

We were told after one month and expecting the digital copy to be sent to us that it would need to be sent to a different company (not their most trusted one which we paid the money to originally) to have it digitised, transcribed and then vetted and wait for it to be allowed to be released

 We would get an answer in Oct 2016, as said by Dan Roony at the National Archives.

We waited and waited and then lost the will to ask for the umpteenth time when we could get our hands on a copy,

Fast forward Nov 2017 and Dennis Morissette gets a copy without any hassle (cost $ 110.00) and in the end it is merely someone else reciting about 80% of Roy Truly's testimony.

What a crock.........

 

 

A few thoughts on this thread.

Bart Kamp is correct in his ID of Shelley and Lovelady in Couch/Darnell. The person in the film IDed by others as being in the Lovelady position is, to me, a woman.  That Shelley and Lovelady were on the run around the building within 30 seconds is, of course, corroborated by the WC's re-inactment of Baker's run to the building, and Shelley and Lovelady's claim they looked back and saw Baker run up to the building.

This is important for a couple of reasons. It proves that they were dead wrong about the time it took them to re-enter the building, and that they could have been the two men Baker saw by the elevators. And it supports Vickie Adams' initial claim she saw them when she reached the first floor.

Now, I know some would like to exploit the inconsistencies in the stories of Baker and Truly to make it seem as though they never ran up the back stairs, but this is wrong-headed, in my opinion. That Baker and Truly called an elevator from the fifth (or sixth) floor, ran up to see Oswald on the second floor, and then noticed the west elevator was missing upon their arrival on the fifth floor, is one of the most important pieces of evidence establishing Oswald's innocence, as it proves an unidentified person who was not Oswald descended from the upper floors after the shooting.

While Ball, Belin, and the WC pretended this elevator was used by Jack Dougherty, they really had no evidence in support of this, and essentially decided he was retarded and that this allowed them to pretend he was anywhere they needed him to be so they could pin the blame on Oswald.

[Sandy Larsen]

2 hours ago, Pat Speer said:

A few thoughts on this thread.

Bart Kamp is correct in his ID of Shelley and Lovelady in Couch/Darnell. The person in the film IDed by others as being in the Lovelady position is, to me, a woman.  That Shelley and Lovelady were on the run around the building within 30 seconds is, of course, corroborated by the WC's re-inactment of Baker's run to the building, and Shelley and Lovelady's claim they looked back and saw Baker run up to the building.

This is important for a couple of reasons. It proves that they were dead wrong about the time it took them to re-enter the building, and that they could have been the two men Baker saw by the elevators. And it supports Vickie Adams' initial claim she saw them when she reached the first floor.

Now, I know some would like to exploit the inconsistencies in the stories of Baker and Truly to make it seem as though they never ran up the back stairs, but this is wrong-headed, in my opinion. That Baker and Truly called an elevator from the fifth (or sixth) floor, ran up to see Oswald on the second floor, and then noticed the west elevator was missing upon their arrival on the fifth floor, is one of the most important pieces of evidence establishing Oswald's innocence, as it proves an unidentified person who was not Oswald descended from the upper floors after the shooting.

While Ball, Belin, and the WC pretended this elevator was used by Jack Dougherty, they really had no evidence in support of this, and essentially decided he was retarded and that this allowed them to pretend he was anywhere they needed him to be so they could pin the blame on Oswald.

FWIW I disagree with everything Pat says and what Bart believes regarding Lovelady and Shelley right after the assassination.. The Darnell/Couch stabilized GIF clearly shows Lovelady still on the steps ~30 seconds after the assassination, talking to Gloria Calvery, with no sign of Bill Shelley on the steps (as he is inside calling his wife). This scenario fit's all the first-day affidavits.

Vicki Adams did not testify that she saw Lovelady and Shelley upon exiting the first-floor stairway. She says she didn't. The FBI altered her testimony in order to discredit her claim that she went down the steps as early as she said.

 

Edited November 29, 2017 by Sandy Larsen

[Pat Speer]

As demonstrated in chapter 4 of my website, it is simply not true that Lovelady and Shelley's testimony undermined Adams' claim she saw them after descending the stairs.

If you think that they did, then you were suckered by the WC.

[Sandy Larsen]

46 minutes ago, Pat Speer said:

As demonstrated in chapter 4 of my website, it is simply not true that Lovelady and Shelley's testimony undermined Adams' claim she saw them after descending the stairs.

If you think that they did, then you were suckered by the WC.

 

I never claimed what you are saying here.

Barry Ernest wrote a book about Victoria Adams named "The Girl on the Stairs." Naturally he interviewed her for the book. She told him that she did NOT see Lovelady or Shelley when she exited the stairwell on the first floor. Yet the transcript of her testimony has her saying that she DID see them. The WC changed her testimony.

The reason the WC did that was to discredit her testimony that she ran down the steps early. Because had she done so, she would have seen or heard Oswald coming down the stairs (according to the WC's official story). Which she didn't. By having her "see" Shelley and Lovelady, the WC makes it so that she came down the steps a few minutes later than what she'd said.

On this page Barry Ernest wrote:

"Vicki Adams denied seeing William Shelley and Billy Lovelady on the first floor when she arrived there. Sandra Styles provided strong corroboration that those two men weren’t around. Additional evidence backs up and is consistent with the truthfulness of Miss Adams."

So Vicki Adams and Sandra Styles both say that Shelley and Lovelady weren't there. Shelley and Lovelady said nothing about going there in their first day affidavits.. Their stories evolved into their being there via the TSBD west entrance. And that's what they testified to for the WC. The Darnell film shows they lied in their later (1964) statements and testimony.

 

[Guest]

9 hours ago, Pat Speer said:

A few thoughts on this thread.

Bart Kamp is correct in his ID of Shelley and Lovelady in Couch/Darnell. The person in the film IDed by others as being in the Lovelady position is, to me, a woman.  That Shelley and Lovelady were on the run around the building within 30 seconds is, of course, corroborated by the WC's re-inactment of Baker's run to the building, and Shelley and Lovelady's claim they looked back and saw Baker run up to the building.

This is important for a couple of reasons. It proves that they were dead wrong about the time it took them to re-enter the building, and that they could have been the two men Baker saw by the elevators. And it supports Vickie Adams' initial claim she saw them when she reached the first floor.

Now, I know some would like to exploit the inconsistencies in the stories of Baker and Truly to make it seem as though they never ran up the back stairs, but this is wrong-headed, in my opinion. That Baker and Truly called an elevator from the fifth (or sixth) floor, ran up to see Oswald on the second floor, and then noticed the west elevator was missing upon their arrival on the fifth floor, is one of the most important pieces of evidence establishing Oswald's innocence, as it proves an unidentified person who was not Oswald descended from the upper floors after the shooting.

While Ball, Belin, and the WC pretended this elevator was used by Jack Dougherty, they really had no evidence in support of this, and essentially decided he was retarded and that this allowed them to pretend he was anywhere they needed him to be so they could pin the blame on Oswald.

Doyle is doing a jig as we speak, but that is anything BUT a woman, and like Jim D. said a year or so ago, "she" must be a heavy steroids user.

Lovelady, who lied through his teeth during his WC testimony said during his HSCA testimony he did not get back until 20/25 mins after the deed! And he is seen having a ciggie on the steps at about 12:50 while waiting to be let in (Hughes and Martin films)

What WC re=enactment of Baker and Truly? No one could ever attest of seeing them starting their 'trip' outside at any given time! I have also added plenty of proof that they did not storm into the building as has been claimed by them. Nor is there any proof that Shelley and Lovelady looked back. Lovelady only mentioned the copper running ahead of him towards the railroad yard on the 23rd in a newspaper. All can be found in my paper.

Vicky Adams did NOT see them, that story only surfaced in Feb 64 when Jim "grand xxxx" Leavelle showed up on her doorstep, one day after she had moved in and was not even regged at that address. 

That Baker and Truly ran up the back stairs is not disputed at all, where do you get this from? I dispute the timing of it, it happened much later.

Your overall conclusion are way too simplistic and are backdated. I suggest you read the updated paper. I am surprised I have to bring all this up again.

Read the paper HERE.

 

Edited November 29, 2017 by Bart Kamp

[Sandy Larsen]

Bart,

I believe that the bloke Pat mistakes for a sheila is the guy Tommy Graves and I claim to be Lovelady, standing there on the steps talking to the woman we claim to be Gloria Calvery.

 

Edited November 30, 2017 by Sandy Larsen

[Guest]

Ow, thanks for that.

You are all wrong then 

[Sandy Larsen]

On 11/29/2017 at 5:30 AM, Bart Kamp said:

Ow, thanks for that.

You are all wrong then 

LOL

 

[Guest]

Arch Kimbraugh's work

Edited December 29, 2017 by Bart Kamp

[Ron Bulman]

Gentlemen, I appreciate your discourse, it enlightens me as to details, please continue.  But has it not come to a point in History where those of us who question the official story developed at the time and sanctioned by the Warren Omission can say What Second Floor Encounter?  It Never Happened. 

[Guest]

Update No. 4 is out!

http://www.prayer-man.com/anatomy-of-the-second-floor-lunch-room-encounter-update-v4/ 

The following has been added:

• More info and a link to Roy Truly’s ‘deleted’ testimony video. Page 4.
• Video link and transcript of an interview with Sylvia Meagher in which she discusses the 2nd floor lunch room encounter in depth. Added on pages 9-11.
• Malcolm Couch still added showing Baker’s bike parked on Elm St. Page 20.
• Detailed drawings of the TSBD front entrance. These were made by the FBI in early Dec. 1963. Pages 30 & 31. Thanks to Gary Murr.
• More testimony and a line of text of Joe Molina added to “Who saw Baker going up the stairs” chapter, page 38.
• Detailed drawings from the FBI on the 2nd floor of the TSBD, pages 63-64. Thanks to Gary Murr.
• Press and Sun-Bulletin Binghamton, New York · Sun, Dec 8, 1963 article added, page 73.
• Added Martha Reed’s affidavit in the chapter Oswald’s location during the so called 2nd floor encounter and just after, page 82.
• Added two documents from Arch Kimbraugh’s collection with statements made by Roy Truly on the day he left for his W.C. testimony. Pages 102 and 103. Thanks to Malcolm Blunt.
• Report by Charles Batchelor in the Where did Baker and Truly go after the encounter chapter. Pages 107-109.
• Jack Revill’s list of all persons’ details taken upon leaving the T.S.B.D. Pages 111 and 112.
• The Carolyn Arnold sub-chapter has been re-written in part and has a few more photos/graphics/statements/book excerpts added. Pages 124-139.
• FBI report with the timings of the re-enactment. Pages 159-161. Thanks to Malcolm Blunt.

Edited March 3, 2018 by Bart Kamp

[Guest]

I have made a backup at Scribd.

https://www.scribd.com/document/373703720/Anatomy-of-the-Second-Floor-Lunch-Room-Encounter-V4-March-3rd-2018

[Guest]

What's that again love about that door leading to the lunch room?

At 11:25, listen carefully, and try not to crap yer undies.....

Oswald had lunch by himself in the 2FLR, that is new to me as everyone has said it was The Domino Room on the 1st floor instead. That could only mean  thatwhen Roy Edward Lewis said that the 2flr was off limits to workers he could have meant black workers. Or she is just badly mistaken.

Tom Graves and Sandy Larsen fast forw to18:10

"Gloria Calvery had distinct red hair" Check the screenshot of the video above, Calvery is the one with the green coat.

That, Brian Doyle kills off your running woman hooey.....my my.

The door to the so called fake vestibule was always open! HA

 

Edited March 16, 2018 by Bart Kamp

[Thomas Graves]

On 3/16/2018 at 11:06 AM, Bart Kamp said:

  .....

 

Bart,

It's fascinating that the woman Karen Hellene Scranton (ne Westbrook) identifies fifty-five years after the fact in the Z-frame as her colleague and close friend "red-haired Gloria Calvery" looks SO much like (Native American) Stella May Jacob's colleague Gloria Jeanne Holt did in her 1963 high school photograph, don't you think?  Which Robin Unger was so kind to post on this thread about a year ago but which has since, unfortunately, "gone missing"?  (I've done a little "research" and determined that Holt attended Woodrow Wilson High School in Dallas, which high school was about six miles away from where she was living at the time of her FBI interview in 1964.)

It this ... Gloria Calvery ... or ... Gloria Jeanne Holt ... in this frame from a Darnell clip?

 

If it's Calvery, where are her stylin' glasses?

 

 

By the way, does the gal in the middle look anything like the Gloria Calvery in this photo?  

 

 

 

This is Robin Unger's post from April 14, 2017:

Are you saying, Tommy, that Gloria Jeanne Holt was working at the TSBD in 1963

when this 1963 year book shows that she was in school in 1963 ?

 

 

 

 

 

Note:  (The high school photos of Gloria Jeanne Holt that Robin uploaded here "expired" some time ago.  Fortunately, I had the presence of mind to take a screen shot about a year ago, and I'm trying to figure out how to downsize it to EF requirements and upload it here ... ) --  TG, 3/23/18

 

 

Edited March 24, 2018 by Thomas Graves