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Jim Hargrove

More Phoney Rifle Documents--Proof!

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But let me tell you where this will all lead, from my past experience with Davey. He will now say it does not matter anyway.

Yes, that's correct, I will say exactly that very thing---and have said that exact thing in the past. In fact, I said it earlier tonight in this very thread! I said it twice, in fact! In Post #20 and #25. (Jimmy's memory is now apparently nonexistent entirely.)

And you KNOW why this whole topic of "Duplicate C2766 Serial Numbers" is completely irrelevant, Jimbo. You know why. You just want to ignore the reason why. So I'll say it yet again (so you can ignore it yet again)....

"Even if 100 additional Carcano rifles were discovered tomorrow with the same C2766 serial number on them -- who cares? So what? Would the discovery of several more "C2766" MC rifles suddenly make Oswald's C2766 rifle CEASE BEING THE WEAPON THAT KILLED PRESIDENT KENNEDY? Of course it wouldn't; and that's because Oswald's C2766 gun (CE139) has unique barrel rifling marks that set it apart from all other rifles--including any other Carcano rifles that the CTers think are also stamped with the serial number C2766. So, in reality, the argument that conspiracists continue to dredge up regarding potential duplicate C2766 serial numbers is a worthless argument in the first place. Because the "C2766" gun that was found on the sixth floor of the TSBD (with OSWALD'S prints on it) is the one and only gun that killed JFK."

-- DVP; July 30, 2010

Edited by David Von Pein

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Isn’t it fascinating that WC loyalist David Von Pein choses to discuss ANYTHING about the FBI’s bogus evidence for the Magic Rifle (and the revolver!) EXCEPT the subject of this thread: which is as follows:

The 11/22/63 sworn affidavit by Crescent Firearms president Louis Feldsott indicated that the Magic Rifle was sold by his company to Klein’s Sporting Goods on June 18, 1962. Feldsott’s summary data provided to the WC reaffirmed the 1962 sales date and indicated that the information was corroborated by Mitchell Scibor.

Why then, do we have printed documents indicating the rifle was sold the following year to Kleins (Feb. 7, 1963)? The answer is that the documents are FBI forgeries, part of the organization’s now clear effort to convict “LHO” based on a small mountain of phony evidence.

How do we dare suggest the FBI and the WC forged evidence in this case? BECAUSE WE HAVE PROOF, AND PLENTY OF IT! Here’s a 3-minute YouTube video showing how the FBI altered evidence from three Dealey Plaza witnesses:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ODXoISgU-0M

Here’s how the Warren Commission altered the testimony of FBI agent James Cadiagan, who inadvertently admitted the FBI had secretly seized “Oswald’s possessions” the night of the assassination and secretly returned them (ALTERED!!) to Dallas before publicly sending them to Washington a few days later:

Here is Cadigan’s original typed testimony with the deletions indicated:

Cadigan%20changes.jpg

And here’s how his official altered testimony eventually appeared in the printed volumes:

Cadigan%20WC%20testimony.jpg

There can be no argument whether the FBI and the Warren Commission altered evidence: both clearly did. The only thing that can be argued is HOW MUCH evidence was tampered with. And the answer is A LOT! It is often not as easy to prove as the above, but it can be proved nevertheless.

For example….

As he did months ago, Mr. Von Pein again reproduces the following Kleins’ advertisements attempting to explain why FBI handwriting analysts asserted LHO’s handwriting was on a money order for a $12.78 rifle:

Klein%27s-Ads.jpg

Mr. Von Pein asserts that the media was simply confused, reporting the price of the rifle WITHOUT A SCOPE. But that is simply untrue, as many contemporary newspaper accounts will attest:

Airtight.jpg

Note the two paragraphs near the bottom of the left-hand column in the 11/24/63 UPI story above. They read as follows (emphasis added):

Police Chief Jesse Curry wove police evidence tighter around Oswald. He said the FBI reported that Oswald bought the Italian 6.5 Carcano bolt-action rifle with a telescopic sight from a Chicago mail order house for $12.78.

The handwriting on the mail order was Oswald’s, Curry said.

This information could only have come from the FBI. Hoover’s FBI could alter witness testimony, and change and invent documentary “evidence,” but even the mighty J. Edgar Hoover could not recall and alter millions of daily newspaper accounts of the earliest evidence. A careful analysis of that evidence shows that, although the FBI claimed to have found “Lee Harvey Oswald’s” handwriting on an order for the Magic Rifle within hours of the assassination, it didn’t get it’s story straight about such simple things as the cost of the rifle for nearly a week. For more details, see:

http://harveyandlee.net/Mail_Order_Rifle/Mail_Order_Rifle.html

In yet another of Mr. Von Pein’s investigatory offenses, he at least seems to be entirely satisfied with accepting any conclusions whatsoever about the assassination made by paid workers of the U.S. government, even though a huge proportion of U.S. citizens believe elements of the U.S. government may have been involved in the hit. The is like asking an accused bank robber to prosecute himself in court.

And so Mr. Von Pein believes handwriting experts for the WC and HSCA examined the original copy of the Magic Money Order? Then perhaps Mr. Von Pein can tell us where the original is? Perhaps he can at least show us a color photograph of it (not some colorized media mock-up). Where is it, Mr. Von Pein? Is he sure that these reports weren’t altered, as so many other things were?

Even in 1963, the FBI was a huge organization, capable of massive propaganda efforts. Sure is stunning how many FBI people died just as the HSCA was getting started.

Edited by Jim Hargrove

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"But Purvis hasn't proven that these various Carcano plants that were

manufacturing the MC rifles many years ago didn't have some kind of
inventory system in place that would ensure that no two rifles of the
same make and model would end up with the same identical serial
number."

The above is one of the funniest sentences that DVP has ever written. Which is saying something. Considering that I once wrote an article about Davey being on Comedy Central.

​Tom had an MC rifle which has the c lettering and had a serial number beyond 2766. I agree that it began with a five and was four digits.

But Davey wants us to think that somehow, somebody stopped the assembly line at 2765. You know, threw the switch, everything ground to a halt. The guy had a note right in front of him.

With everyone frozen, the manager then came out of his office, and went to the stamping machine. He then flipped over the numerals 2766 to 2767. He then started over again.

HA HA HA LOL ROTF LMAO :lol:

Oh really Davey? So in other words there was no 2767 on the way to the 5000 number? Or did it just start at 5000?

​Knowing they would eventually produce millions of these rifles?

As Mark Lane, quoting Zola once said, "By accepting absurdities, we create the circumstances for tragedy."

​As per John Lattimer, sorry kiddo. We know what Lattimer wrote the first time. With the rifle in front of him. If someone in your camp then writes him and says, "John, you're blowing it" considering the man's record, he does not get a second chance.

That is also hysterical about the rifling marks. You mean like on CE 399?

Edited by James DiEugenio

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DiEugenio can't possibly be serious in Post #34. Everything he wrote in that post is absurd and laughable---covering all three topics.

Per Jimbo's strained logic, since Thomas H. Purvis once allegedly had a rifle with a "C5XXX" serial number, that somehow "PROVES" (in Jimmy's mind) that a second rifle with "C2766" on it had to have existed.

I'd love to hear that idiotic argument uttered in a court of law. The laughter would never cease.

Edited by David Von Pein

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Davey:

Unless you want to call Tom Purvis, who is deceased, a xxxx, that is what you are saying. And that is what he argued. Quite cogently, since he was very familiar with the whole MC manufacturing process. He knew a guy who was an expert in the field.

Lattimer changed his story, period.

CE 399 is beyond any serious comment. It would be thrown out of court.

FInally, let us not forget Mr. Sucher, the weapons merchant who backs up what Tom and his friend said.

Edited by James DiEugenio

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DVP states: And one of the best documents that proves Oswald ordered Carcano Rifle C2766 is Waldman Exhibit No. 7.

Waldman7 is the Blank order form.... problem being Dave is the Secret Service and virtually everyone else but you understands what C20-T750 referred to:

The model 1891 TROOP SPECIAL or TS for short. Thing is, the 91TS Kleins ordered has an ADJUSTABLE REAR SIGHT.

And look! the ad running is for a 36" carbine with an ADJUSTABLE REAR SIGHT. In fact, this same ad runs until Feb '63: for $19.95 get a scoped 36" carbine with an adj rear sight

A good number of businesses actually plan out their advertising so they are sure to have the item advertised in stock.

For March, 1962 they were obviously ordering 91TS rifles to support an ad which would run a full year.

Yet within a month of starting these ads Kleins cancels it 91TS order in favor of a rifle they did not advertise until April 1963, a full year later.

Why would they do that Dave? They have an ad running for a year specific to this 91TS Adj rear sight rifle yet cancels it and waits almost a year on a model that costs more as well is bigger and heavier?

So we agree that:

  • a 36" adj rear sight 91TS model was advertised from March 62 thru Feb 63 as a C20-T750
  • Klein's ordered 400 91TS rifles in Jan 1962, 2 months before the ad begins running
  • In April 1962 - with the same rifle ad as March for the 91TS - Klein's cancels this order in favor of another rifle which is not specifically named on the order. Any one of 3 different rifles fits the M91/38 designation. Without the FC, TS or Cav. after the numbers, a specific rifle cannot be determined
  • Beretta and Terni are manufacturing plants, not rifle IDs
  • Klein's continues to advertise the 91TS rifle in July yet the ad has changed slightly and only offers the scoped 36" carbine with Adj rear sight for $19.95

    Except there is no evidence offered that they had the 91TS in stock - if anything, the order for 400 of them suggests they are out or low in stock, if they ever offered that rifle before

So Dave, as I've asked you before... what rifle was used to fill C20-T750 orders from Feb 62 thru Feb 63?

How about it Dave? From the available info, the only M91/38 rifle sold by Kleins as a C20-T750 was Hidell's - which means M91/38 refers to FC rifles

except "Beretta Terni 91/38EFF" gives no indication to Crescent, which rifle they wanted since the "Berreta & Terni" parts refer to 2 different manufacturers, not a model.

EFF is also not a model and refers to EFFective date 4/13/62... yet Waldman didn't know that.

You and the other WCR apologists claim the FC rifle was shipped instead. Fine. The evidence offered shows Rupp does not remove a rifle from Harborside (where C2766 supposed arrived in Oct 1960) until Aug 1962 and we both know the Aug 62 pull did not included the carton with C2766.

So what did they ship for C20-T750 orders until February 1963 when they finally receive the FC rifles and where are the accumulated orders that would have pulled from that Feb shipment.? Please provide proof of answer - show us a single document from anyone anywhere that shows just one of those other 99 rifle on an invoice or being delivered or photographed due to it being the same as the rifle that killed JFK...

The order form you hang your hat on has no authentication Davey. FBI SA Dolan both took and left the microfilm depending on the report. Did you know he claims they provided Waldman a copy of said microfilm 2 weeks later? Klein's would have had the copy for review at any time... where'd that go I wonder....

And here is my proof....

Kleins%20replacement%20order%20for%2091T

Dave still does not understand that some writing on a piece of paper is only the smallest part of authenticating the ownership and possession of an item.

Things like getting the rifle to Kleins in the first place, order prep, inventory levels, payment processing, shipping, and finally retrieval of a 5 foot cardboard carton with a rifle.

I wonder Dave... since the FBI and US Postal Inspectors and assorted informants were watching Oswald - would you please show us an FBI report prior to Nov 22 which states that informants at the USPS and REA tell us that Oswald has received - in addition to the magazines we've told you he receives - a rifle in a 5' carton from his PO Box and a pistol from REA from which there is no evidence and brings them home to Neely in Dallas, moves it from Neely to his aunt's house on French in New Orleans, then to Magazine also in New Orleans.

From Magazine Marina and baby go with Ruth on Sept 23, Ozzie and 2 small suitcases are seen leaving Magazine - these were described as small, 18" suitcases which are supposed to fit a 32" piece of a rifle?

Ruth and Micheal testify to NEVER SEEING A RIFLE in their home, in fact never seeing a rifle until Nov 22.

Ozzie calls from Dallas on the 4th of October asking that Marina ask Ruth to come get him... Marina basically hangs up o him and he supposedly hitchhikes to Irving. Does he have the rifle with him now Dave? If so, where is it?

He hitchhikes to the Paine's (according to the story) and there is no mention of a rifle or pistol from then on until Nov 22 and the ridiculous garage story Ruth concocts.

Sorry Dave... there is simply no ground for you to stand on here. There is no proof C2766 ever left Harborside on route to Kleins to Hidell and TSBD. The fact is was there at the TSBD does not equate to the journey you are claiming it took.

Try and prove the journey the rifle took with evidence of the journey, not the assumption that if it was there the journey MUST have happened the way we were told by the FBI, Harry Holmes, the Secret Service and the DPD - all of whom tell a different story...

Edited by David Josephs

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Okay guys, I need help.

But first.... forgive me if this has already been discussed here. (It seems like Jim D. has referred to it a couple times, but doesn't come right out and say it. As far as I can tell.)

Her's my question:

If millions of Carcanos were manufactured, why are their serial numbers so small?? I did an online search for Carcanos and came up with a few, all having just four digits for serial numbers. Plus a letter prefix. Do Carcanos with six- or seven-digit serial numbers exist?

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According the Wikipedia article linked below, there were somewhere between 2,063,750, and, 3,000,000 Carcano rifles of all variants produced between 1890 and 1945.

The maximum number of unique serial numbers using four numbers only, would be 9,999, and adding just one letter would bring the possibilities up to 259,974 - about a quarter of a million. Adding a second letter would allow for nearly seven million unique serial numbers.

I too would be interested in an informed answer to Sandy’s question.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carcano

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I can only answer with Sucher's statement.

The weapons dealer who said that many factories produced the same weapons and there were many repeating serial numbers.

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I can only answer with Sucher's statement.

The weapons dealer who said that many factories produced the same weapons and there were many repeating serial numbers.

From Vincent Bugliosi's book:

"William Suchur [sic], the owner of International Firearms Company of Montreal, informed the FBI on March 12, 1964, per a letter from J. Edgar Hoover to the Warren Commission of April 22, 1964, that “in the 1930’s Mussolini ordered all arms factories to manufacture the Mannlicher-Carcano rifle. Since many concerns were manufacturing the same weapon, the same serial number appears on weapons manufactured by more than one concern. Some bear a letter prefix and some do not” (CE 2562, 25 H 808). However, no other Mannlicher-Carcano with a serial number of C2766 has ever surfaced, although one with a serial number of 2766 without any prefix did. .... However, even if another Mannlicher-Carcano did surface with the same serial number as Oswald’s, C2766, it would be irrelevant since we know one with that serial number was sold and sent to Oswald, was found in the sniper’s nest*, and was proved to be the murder weapon." -- Vincent Bugliosi; Page 340 of Endnotes in "Reclaiming History"

* Slight error on Bugliosi's part here. Vince, of course, knew full well that the rifle was not found "in the sniper's nest" itself. He obviously meant to say "on the sixth floor of the Book Depository Building" instead of "in the sniper's nest".

But it seems to me that a reasonable interpretation of what William Sucher told the FBI in March 1964 would be that only the four numerals that appear after the letter prefix in a serial number are repeated when stamping the serial numbers on Mannlicher-Carcano rifles. Hence, he said "some bear a letter prefix and some do not".

Therefore, when the four digits in a given serial number are identical to the numbers stamped on a previously manufactured gun, a letter prefix is added to the number to set it apart from all other Carcano serial numbers. I certainly think that's one way to interpret Sucher's remarks at any rate. Although apparently Vince Bugliosi did not interpret Sucher's statement in such a manner. Otherwise, I think he would have mentioned such an interpretation in his book, which he did not do.

RELATED FLASHBACK....

GIL JESUS SAID (ON SEPTEMBER 9, 2008):

[Quoting from Commission Exhibit No. 2562, p.15:] "Since many concerns were manufacturing the same weapon, THE SAME SERIAL NUMBER APPEARS ON WEAPONS MANUFACTURED BY MORE THAN ONE CONCERN. Some bear a letter prefix and some do not." .... Now, where did he say that no two weapons bore the same letter prefix?

DAVID VON PEIN SAID (ON SEPTEMBER 9, 2008):

Yes, you're correct here (in a way), Gil. I'll admit that.

I.E.,

The above passage which you quoted from CE2562 can, indeed, be interpreted this way:

The exact same 5-character serial number can appear on multiple Mannlicher-Carcano Model 91/38 rifles that were manufactured at different plants, which would include the same prefix letter as well as the same four numbers that follow the prefix letter.

But I also think the above quote from CE2562 can be interpreted another way, which is probably the correct way of interpreting it, especially when factoring in these two things as a prerequisite:

1.) J. Edgar Hoover's comments to J. Lee Rankin on Page 1 of that 20-page document that makes up Warren Commission Exhibit No. 2562, wherein Hoover is telling Rankin about two specific rifles of interest to the Commission, rifles which bear similar serial numbers, but not serial numbers that are exactly the same, because one of them doesn't bear the "C" letter prefix.

And:

2.) The fact that nobody, to date, has produced a single example of another Model #91/38 Mannlicher-Carcano rifle that bears the exact same 5-character serial number as the one that was shipped by Klein's to Hidell/Oswald in March 1963. And, as far as I am aware, nobody has ever come up with ANY two separate MC 91/38 rifles that bear the exact same 5-character serial number, regardless of whether the number is "C2766" or some other number.

Given the above two facts, I believe that the above quote that you cited from CE2562 could reasonably be interpreted in the following manner:

The exact same 4-digit serial NUMBER (i.e., the numerals 0 through 9) can appear on multiple Mannlicher-Carcano Model 91/38 rifles that were manufactured at different plants, but if the very same 4-digit number does appear on any two rifles, then one of these rifles will include a letter prefix in front of the 4-digit number, while the other rifle will not have this prefix.

In my opinion, the above explanation is a reasonable one, given the comments by J. Edgar Hoover on Page #1 of CE2562. And it's also a very reasonable explanation when factoring in the following comments regarding this topic of serial numbers that were made by the FBI's Robert A. Frazier to the Warren Commission in 1964:

MR. EISENBERG -- "Based on your experience with firearms, is the placement of a specific serial number on a weapon generally confined to one weapon of a given type?"

MR. FRAZIER -- "Yes, it is. Particularly--may I refer to foreign weapons particularly? The serial number consists of a series of numbers which normally will be repeated. However, a prefix is placed before the number, which actually must be part of the serial number, consisting of a letter."

MR. EISENBERG -- "Have you been able to confirm that the serial number on this weapon is the only such number on such a weapon?"

MR. FRAZIER -- "Yes, it is."

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I will try not to divert this thread, but I’d like to point out that there is a third point of view: That Oswald did order a Carcano from Klein’s as part of his Ferrie/Banister/Hoover patsy bona fides, but that C-2766 was not that rifle. Working to thwart both the assassination and the framing of Oswald, Lee’s second “Ringer” Carcano, C-2766, was fabricated/modified by Richard Case Nagell. How Richard messed up Hoover’s paper trail, and how he told us about it, is the topic of the thread linked below. If you’d like to discuss this with me, we had best do it there:

http://educationforum.ipbhost.com/index.php?showtopic=22752

Tom

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The evidence for the rifle is so screwy and contradictory it’s probably a good idea to keep an open mind about this, but at the risk of sounding like a broken record, I’ve got to point out that the whole Eye-talian Carbine thing was probably a hastily put together Plan B or Plan C concocted entirely in the fall of 1963.

The rifle that was supposed to be found near the sixth floor “sniper’s nest” was surely a .300 Savage rifle purchased from Fidel Castro’s personal friend and long-time gun supplier, Robert McKeown. On Labor Day weekend, 1963, a man identifying himself as “Lee Oswald” showed up at McKeown’s Texas home and repeatedly tried to buy rifles from him, eventually offering the ludicrous price of $10,000 for four rifles with scopes. McKeown, currently on probation for Cuban drug-running charges, wisely refused the offer.

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Apropos post 32 above, the only person who is worse windbag than Bugliosi is Von Pein.

Davey: Please show us where in VB's 2646 page opus he tells the reader that the rifle the Dallas Police offered into evidence is not the same rifle that Oswald allegedly ordered?

When you find that info in RH, please furnish that with your answer to David Josephs.

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