Lovelady Wore A Very Similar, But Different, Shirt For Groden

[Robert Prudhomme]

You can see the "break" in the line of the pocket in this photo.

Looks to me like a small wrinkle going across the shirt. The wrinkle becomes more pronounced further to the right.

Several of these tiny wrinkles can be seen.

Ray,

I see the top edge of the pocket. It's hanging out and away from the shirt proper by just a smidgen, but it is noticeable to those who are willing to see it.

As regards the possibility that Lovelady may have put on a few pounds, it's also possible that the reason the shirt seems to have shrunk is because it has -- maybe somebody (probably "careless" Lovelady, himself) washed it in water that was way too hot. How's that for a mundane explanation?

So to reiterate, I do see the pocket. (But then again what would you expect from a notorious "lone nutter" / "disinfo agent" such as me?)

LOL

-- Tommy

Oh yeah, Tom, shrunk the tails right off the shirt, along with the pocket.

You're embarrassing yourself. I'll bet you can see Badge Man, too.

[Sandy Larsen]

If Lovelady wore the plaid shirt for the last time on the day of the assassination, and then put it into storage until he wore it for demonstration purposes in the 1970's, why would the pocket be missing?

And why does it look like it shrunk while in storage?

P.S.

Please ignore the text accompanying the second photo. It was the only full photo of the 1963 shirt I could find.

Robert,

I agree with you regarding the missing pocket. But as for the shirt being snug, it could be that Lovelady put on some weight.

You make an interesting point about the shirt being in storage for a long time. Why would Lovelady have kept that shirt? To commemorate the JFK assassination? Wasn't there anything more reasonable to keep than a shirt?

Was the shirt controversial way back then? If not, I don't know why Lovelady would have singled it out to save.

He might have put on weight but that still doesn't explain the shirt on the right being so much shorter than the 1963 shirt.

Did he cut the tails AND the pocket off the shirt?

I don't believe they are the same shirt.

Oh yeah, good point. It seems to have become way shorter, more so than what one would expect from washing in hot water.

I can't believe that a person would save a special shirt and then alter it in meaningless ways like cutting it short or taking off the pocket. Especially a man.

When you say you don't believe they are the same shirt, do you mean the large and small one? Or the 1963 and later one?

Edited October 27, 2016 by Sandy Larsen

[Thomas Graves]

If Lovelady wore the plaid shirt for the last time on the day of the assassination, and then put it into storage until he wore it for demonstration purposes in the 1970's, why would the pocket be missing?

And why does it look like it shrunk while in storage?

P.S.

Please ignore the text accompanying the second photo. It was the only full photo of the 1963 shirt I could find.

Robert,

I agree with you regarding the missing pocket. But as for the shirt being snug, it could be that Lovelady put on some weight.

You make an interesting point about the shirt being in storage for a long time. Why would Lovelady have kept that shirt? To commemorate the JFK assassination? Wasn't there anything more reasonable to keep than a shirt?

Was the shirt controversial way back then? If not, I don't know why Lovelady would have singled it out to save.

He might have put on weight but that still doesn't explain the shirt on the right being so much shorter than the 1963 shirt.

Did he cut the tails AND the pocket off the shirt?

I don't believe they are the same shirt.

Oh yeah, good point. It seems to have become way shorter, more so than what one would expect from washing in hot water.

I can't believe that a person would save a special shirt and then alter it in meaningless ways like cutting it short or taking off the pocket. Especially a man.

When you say you don't believe they are the same shirt, do you mean the large and small one? Or the 1963 and later one?

Dear Sandy,

Boy-oh-boy, you've really "got" me now.

Seein' as how the guy walking down Elm Street Extension with William Shelley seems to be wearing a big baggy plaid shirt with "tails," he can't possibly be Lovelady, can he, even though when he was "caught" on film (sitting in a chair in the police department and watching Oswald being taken past him) we can see that his face looks a lot like Lovelady's and that he even has the same bald spot on the top-rear of his head and the same tiny "dot" (hair?, mole?, scar?) at the end of his left eyebrow.

Seein' as how you've proved that this guy can't possibly be Lovelady, the only thing I can figure is that he must have been sitting up there in the Homicide and Robbery office of the Dallas Police Department at 2:02 on 11/22/63 so he could explain why he hadn't paid a parking ticket, or something.

A 2012 post by Richard Hocking:

Posted 24 May 2012 - 02:38 PM

To followup on the TSBD employees who went to the Dallas Police Station:

In CE 1381, the following men state they went and gave statements. Each one gave a time reference as to when they left the TSBD or when they arrived at the Station.

Danny Arce: about 1:00

Jack Dougherty: Left at 1:30

Charles Givens: About and hour after the shooting [1:30]

Billy Lovelady: 1:45 (on page 662 of CE 1381, in which he lied about where he and WS went immediately after the shots)

William Shelley: about 1:30 (on page 673 of CE 1381, mentions he saw LHO at the police station)

BR Williams: shortly after 1:00

And, FWIW:

"DPD Officer Senkel: Brown and I left the Texas School Book Depository with witnesses William Shelley, Bonnie Ray Williams, and Danny Garcia Arce." [and accompanied them to the Police Department]

http://jfk.ci.dallas...15/1548-002.gif

-- Tommy

Edited October 28, 2016 by Thomas Graves

[Robert Prudhomme]

If Lovelady wore the plaid shirt for the last time on the day of the assassination, and then put it into storage until he wore it for demonstration purposes in the 1970's, why would the pocket be missing?

And why does it look like it shrunk while in storage?

P.S.

Please ignore the text accompanying the second photo. It was the only full photo of the 1963 shirt I could find.

Robert,

I agree with you regarding the missing pocket. But as for the shirt being snug, it could be that Lovelady put on some weight.

You make an interesting point about the shirt being in storage for a long time. Why would Lovelady have kept that shirt? To commemorate the JFK assassination? Wasn't there anything more reasonable to keep than a shirt?

Was the shirt controversial way back then? If not, I don't know why Lovelady would have singled it out to save.

He might have put on weight but that still doesn't explain the shirt on the right being so much shorter than the 1963 shirt.

Did he cut the tails AND the pocket off the shirt?

I don't believe they are the same shirt.

Oh yeah, good point. It seems to have become way shorter, more so than what one would expect from washing in hot water.

I can't believe that a person would save a special shirt and then alter it in meaningless ways like cutting it short or taking off the pocket. Especially a man.

When you say you don't believe they are the same shirt, do you mean the large and small one? Or the 1963 and later one?

I thought the only choice was the 1963 plaid shirt and the plaid shirt in the 70's. Was there another shirt? Did I miss something?

[Robert Prudhomme]

Something funny you guys might get a laugh out of that is slightly related to the plaid shirt.

When I worked as a logger on the West Coast, we were always way out in the deep woods; far from any washroom and, of course, toilet paper. As it rains so much here, I used to keep a good amount of paper towel wrapped up in a plastic shopping bag in the back pocket of my jeans to keep it dry until I needed it for T.P. Of course, once it was all used up, a person didn't always have the presence of mind to replenish the stocks once he got home, and many a time I was caught having to have a B.M. in the woods without any T.P. Moss works quite well but, the thing the survivalists never tell you about moss is that it is full of fallen spruce needles, and the part of the body you are trying to clean is rather sensitive to a bunch of pointy spruce needles being drug over it.

Know what we do? Out comes the pocket knife, and the first thing to disappear is one of the pockets on our work shirt, which makes a very soft brand of T.P. Once the pockets are gone, we start working on the sleeves, and when we have nothing left but a long vest, we start on the shirt tails. Once they're gone, the next thing to go is the collar, but it's not really considered the "creme de la creme" of T.P., as it's usually a bit stiff, and by that point we were usually buying another shirt at the commissary, or using moss.

When I saw Lovelady in the shortened shirt with no pockets, my first thought was "Yup, sleeves are next!"

Edited October 28, 2016 by Robert Prudhomme

[Sandy Larsen]

If Lovelady wore the plaid shirt for the last time on the day of the assassination, and then put it into storage until he wore it for demonstration purposes in the 1970's, why would the pocket be missing?

And why does it look like it shrunk while in storage?

P.S.

Please ignore the text accompanying the second photo. It was the only full photo of the 1963 shirt I could find.

Robert,

I agree with you regarding the missing pocket. But as for the shirt being snug, it could be that Lovelady put on some weight.

You make an interesting point about the shirt being in storage for a long time. Why would Lovelady have kept that shirt? To commemorate the JFK assassination? Wasn't there anything more reasonable to keep than a shirt?

Was the shirt controversial way back then? If not, I don't know why Lovelady would have singled it out to save.

He might have put on weight but that still doesn't explain the shirt on the right being so much shorter than the 1963 shirt.

Did he cut the tails AND the pocket off the shirt?

I don't believe they are the same shirt.

Oh yeah, good point. It seems to have become way shorter, more so than what one would expect from washing in hot water.

I can't believe that a person would save a special shirt and then alter it in meaningless ways like cutting it short or taking off the pocket. Especially a man.

When you say you don't believe they are the same shirt, do you mean the large and small one? Or the 1963 and later one?

Dear Sandy,

Boy-oh-boy, you've really "got" me now.

Seein' as how the guy walking down Elm Street Extension with William Shelley seems to be wearing a big baggy plaid shirt with "tails," he can't possibly be Lovelady, can he, even though when he was "caught" on film (sitting in a chair in the police department and watching Oswald being taken past him) we can see that his face looks a lot like Lovelady's and that he even has the same bald spot on the top-rear of his head and the same tiny "dot" (hair?, mole?, scar?) at the end of his left eyebrow.

Seein' as how you've proved that this guy can't possibly be Lovelady, the only thing I can figure is that he must have been sitting up there in the Homicide and Robbery office of the Dallas Police Department at 2:02 on 11/22/63 so he could explain why he hadn't paid a parking ticket, or something.

A 2012 post by Richard Hocking:

Posted 24 May 2012 - 02:38 PM

To followup on the TSBD employees who went to the Dallas Police Station:

In CE 1381, the following men state they went and gave statements. Each one gave a time reference as to when they left the TSBD or when they arrived at the Station.

Danny Arce: about 1:00

Jack Dougherty: Left at 1:30

Charles Givens: About and hour after the shooting [1:30]

Billy Lovelady: 1:45 (on page 662 of CE 1381, in which he lied about where he and WS went immediately after the shots)

William Shelley: about 1:30 (on page 673 of CE 1381, mentions he saw LHO at the police station)

BR Williams: shortly after 1:00

And, FWIW:

"DPD Officer Senkel: Brown and I left the Texas School Book Depository with witnesses William Shelley, Bonnie Ray Williams, and Danny Garcia Arce." [and accompanied them to the Police Department]

http://jfk.ci.dallas...15/1548-002.gif

-- Tommy

Tommy,

That's a good point about the shirt being baggy on the guy waking down Elm Street extension with Shelley. Lovelady's plaid shirt has never been baggy. Neither has Neanderthal Man's.

The shirt could appear more baggy by opening up all the buttons.

Problem is, the shirt on the guy walking down Elm Street extension looks significantly longer than even Lovelady's non-shrunk one, and rough measurements I've made support that. (Unfortunately, since I use head size as a reference, and since the head boundaries are hard to make out on the stills from the film (see below), my measurements aren't as trustworthy as I'd like.)

[Sandy Larsen]

If Lovelady wore the plaid shirt for the last time on the day of the assassination, and then put it into storage until he wore it for demonstration purposes in the 1970's, why would the pocket be missing?

And why does it look like it shrunk while in storage?

P.S.

Please ignore the text accompanying the second photo. It was the only full photo of the 1963 shirt I could find.

Robert,

I agree with you regarding the missing pocket. But as for the shirt being snug, it could be that Lovelady put on some weight.

You make an interesting point about the shirt being in storage for a long time. Why would Lovelady have kept that shirt? To commemorate the JFK assassination? Wasn't there anything more reasonable to keep than a shirt?

Was the shirt controversial way back then? If not, I don't know why Lovelady would have singled it out to save.

He might have put on weight but that still doesn't explain the shirt on the right being so much shorter than the 1963 shirt.

Did he cut the tails AND the pocket off the shirt?

I don't believe they are the same shirt.

Oh yeah, good point. It seems to have become way shorter, more so than what one would expect from washing in hot water.

I can't believe that a person would save a special shirt and then alter it in meaningless ways like cutting it short or taking off the pocket. Especially a man.

When you say you don't believe they are the same shirt, do you mean the large and small one? Or the 1963 and later one?

I thought the only choice was the 1963 plaid shirt and the plaid shirt in the 70's. Was there another shirt? Did I miss something?

Here are the two potential choices:

1. Is the shirt worn by Neanderthal Man on 11/22/63 the same as the plaid shirt worn by Lovelady in 1970 and photographed by Groden? (Substitute Lovelady in for Neanderthal Man if you believe they are the same person.)

I don't believe they are the same shirt because the former has a pocket and the latter doesn't.

2. Is the smaller shirt worn by Lovelady in later decades the same as the larger one photographed in 1970 by Groden? If yes, then how did the shirt get smaller?

I believe that they ARE the same shirt. I have a theory I'm working on, a part of which is that the plaid shirt -- brand new -- was given to Lovelady post assassination (and post WC), and that it had never been washed when he was first wearing it. At some point it needed washing, and doing so shrank the shirt. The person who gave it to Lovelady didn't take shrinkage into consideration when he acquired the shirt.

[Sandy Larsen]

Something funny you guys might get a laugh out of that is slightly related to the plaid shirt.

When I worked as a logger on the West Coast, we were always way out in the deep woods; far from any washroom and, of course, toilet paper. As it rains so much here, I used to keep a good amount of paper towel wrapped up in a plastic shopping bag in the back pocket of my jeans to keep it dry until I needed it for T.P. Of course, once it was all used up, a person didn't always have the presence of mind to replenish the stocks once he got home, and many a time I was caught having to have a B.M. in the woods without any T.P. Moss works quite well but, the thing the survivalists never tell you about moss is that it is full of fallen spruce needles, and the part of the body you are trying to clean is rather sensitive to a bunch of pointy spruce needles being drug over it.

Know what we do? Out comes the pocket knife, and the first thing to disappear is one of the pockets on our work shirt, which makes a very soft brand of T.P. Once the pockets are gone, we start working on the sleeves, and when we have nothing left but a long vest, we start on the shirt tails. Once they're gone, the next thing to go is the collar, but it's not really considered the "creme de la creme" of T.P., as it's usually a bit stiff, and by that point we were usually buying another shirt at the commissary, or using moss.

When I saw Lovelady in the shortened shirt with no pockets, my first thought was "Yup, sleeves are next!"

LOL great story! I thought I'd reached the punchline when you said "Moss works quite well [as TP] but, the thing the survivalists never tell you about moss is that it is full of fallen spruce needles!"

[Thomas Graves]

Dear Sandy,

Your number 2 sounds reasonable except for the fact that Lovelady was wearing a long-sleeved, reddish, non vertically-striped shirt over a white t-shirt on 11/22/63, as seen near the beginning of the Robert Hughes film (as the limo is approaching and passing by the TSBD). See also "Doorman" in black-and-white Altgens 6, below. Bear in mind that after the limo passes by in Hughes, Lovelady moves from the wall position to the center handrail position, and is leaning out towards the camera in Altgens 6.

Robert Hughes film

Detail from Altgens 6. Note the black and white horizontal stripes on the sleeve and "button area."

Which leads us to two non-conspiratorial , non paranoia-inducing possibilities: 1) Lovelady was wearing a baggy, previously-unwashed shirt on 11/22/63 which had shrunk by the time some unknown-to-me person photographed him in it a few years later, or 2) that Lovelady threw away the shirt sometime after 11/22/63, and then tried to buy a similar one for Groden's or that other person's "photo shoot." (Heck, he might have had a whole collection of similar shirts.) But then one must ask why did he buy one that was too small? Did someone else -- maybe his wife -- buy it for him? Was the smallish one the only one he or she could find on such short notice? Or did he like that kind of shirt (the 11/22/63 one) so much that he bought another one like it after throwing away "the original," and then it got washed in some too-hot water?.

-- Tommy

PS Your statement that "I'm embarrassing myself" is a suggestion I refuse to accept.

PPS I really can see the top edge of a pocket in the "Groden shirt."

Edited October 28, 2016 by Thomas Graves

[Sandy Larsen]

PS Your statement that "I'm embarrassing myself" is a suggestion I refuse to accept.

Tommy,

I've never said to you or anybody else "you're embarrassing yourself."

[Thomas Graves]

PS Your statement that "I'm embarrassing myself" is a suggestion I refuse to accept.

Tommy,

I've never said to you or anybody else "you're embarrassing yourself."

Dear Sandy,

Fine.

Maybe it was your Cowboy Partner, instead.

In which case, "My Bad."

Now that that's been taken care of, would you care to address the substantive issues in my now-edited post?

-- Tommy

[Robert Prudhomme]

Something funny you guys might get a laugh out of that is slightly related to the plaid shirt.

When I worked as a logger on the West Coast, we were always way out in the deep woods; far from any washroom and, of course, toilet paper. As it rains so much here, I used to keep a good amount of paper towel wrapped up in a plastic shopping bag in the back pocket of my jeans to keep it dry until I needed it for T.P. Of course, once it was all used up, a person didn't always have the presence of mind to replenish the stocks once he got home, and many a time I was caught having to have a B.M. in the woods without any T.P. Moss works quite well but, the thing the survivalists never tell you about moss is that it is full of fallen spruce needles, and the part of the body you are trying to clean is rather sensitive to a bunch of pointy spruce needles being drug over it.

Know what we do? Out comes the pocket knife, and the first thing to disappear is one of the pockets on our work shirt, which makes a very soft brand of T.P. Once the pockets are gone, we start working on the sleeves, and when we have nothing left but a long vest, we start on the shirt tails. Once they're gone, the next thing to go is the collar, but it's not really considered the "creme de la creme" of T.P., as it's usually a bit stiff, and by that point we were usually buying another shirt at the commissary, or using moss.

When I saw Lovelady in the shortened shirt with no pockets, my first thought was "Yup, sleeves are next!"

LOL great story! I thought I'd reached the punchline when you said "Moss works quite well [as TP] but, the thing the survivalists never tell you about moss is that it is full of fallen spruce needles!"

I forgot to mention that Lovelady seemed to be doing the same procedure, but a little out of the normal sequence. We usually cut the sleeves off first (in sections) and, once they were gone, THEN we went after the tails of the shirt.

[Thomas Graves]

You can see the "break" in the line of the pocket in this photo.

Looks to me like a small wrinkle going across the shirt. The wrinkle becomes more pronounced further to the right.

Several of these tiny wrinkles can be seen.

Ray,

I see the top edge of the pocket. It's hanging out and away from the shirt proper by just a smidgen, but it is noticeable to those who are willing to see it.

As regards the possibility that Lovelady may have put on a few pounds, it's also possible that the reason the shirt seems to have shrunk is because it has -- maybe somebody (probably "careless" Lovelady, himself) washed it in water that was way too hot. How's that for a mundane explanation?

So to reiterate, I do see the pocket. (But then again what would you expect from a notorious "lone nutter" / "disinfo agent" such as me?)

LOL

-- Tommy

Oh yeah, Tom, shrunk the tails right off the shirt, along with the pocket.

You're embarrassing yourself. I'll bet you can see Badge Man, too.

Howdy Bob!,

Yup, it was you after all.

FWIW, your assassinine statement is a suggestion I refuse to accept.

And no, I gave up on trying to see "Badge Man" a long time ago.

Ever find Gloria Jean Calvery, Bob? She's critical to your "theory," isn't she? (I suppose you could always try calling her brother on Thanksgiving Day.)

-- Tommy

Edited October 28, 2016 by Thomas Graves

[Sandy Larsen]

On 10/28/2016 at 1:48 AM, Thomas Graves said:

Dear Sandy,

Your number 2 sounds reasonable except for the fact that Lovelady was wearing a long-sleeved, reddish, non vertically-striped shirt over a white t-shirt on 11/22/63, as seen near the beginning of the Robert Hughes film (as the limo is approaching and passing by the TSBD).

That's an interesting video, Tommy. What I find most intriguing is that the guy's shirt matches Oswald's. You believe it is reddish, but I've grabbed numerous frames from this video and also from other copies of of the Hughes film and most show the shirt being a medium/dark gray color. Some frames show a reddish hue on the right. But in some of these the reddish hue extends down below shirt level.

See also "Doorman" in black-and-white Altgens 6, below. Bear in mind that after the limo passes by in Hughes, Lovelady moves from the wall position to the center handrail position, and is leaning out towards the camera in Altgens 6.

Robert Hughes film

Detail from Altgens 6. Note the black and white horizontal stripes on the sleeve and "button area."

What you see as plaid, I see as "beats me." Because the so-called plaid pattern of Lovelady's shirt extends down onto the black fellow's right hand and shirt sleeve. (His hand is raised and held as though he is shading his eyes from the sun. But the shot must have been taken as he was raising or lowering his hand because, as we see it here, it is too low to be providing shade.)

Ralph Cinque couldn't understand how Lovelady's arm could extend so far down. It's because he didn't realize that that isn't Lovelady's arm, it is the black guy's arm, wrist, and hand. If you study it carefully you can see his thumb. His four fingers are close together and his thumb extended out... just as most people do when shading their eyes.

BTW, the theory I'm developing has the FBI looking at this photo and thinking that Lovelady is wearing a plaid shirt. Then they see the video of a guy walking down Elm Street extension with Shelley Man, and they believe it's the same guy (Lovelady), when it really isn't. The thing I'm stuck on is that I expect Lovelady to be wearing the vertically-striped shirt he told the FBI he was wearing. But here we see he isn't. The shirt could be Oswald's -- and the guy Oswald -- but that doesn't work either because Altgens 6 photo was distributed right away. And the guy looks like Lovelady.

Which leads us to two non-conspiratorial , non paranoia-inducing possibilities: 1) Lovelady was wearing a baggy, previously-unwashed shirt on 11/22/63 which had shrunk by the time some unknown-to-me person photographed him in it a few years later, or 2) that Lovelady threw away the shirt sometime after 11/22/63, and then tried to buy a similar one for Groden's or that other person's "photo shoot." (Heck, he might have had a whole collection of similar shirts.) But then one must ask why did he buy one that was too small? Did someone else -- maybe his wife -- buy it for him? Was the smallish one the only one he or she could find on such short notice? Or did he like that kind of shirt (the 11/22/63 one) so much that he bought another one like it after throwing away "the original," and then it got washed in some too-hot water?.

Tommy, It is difficult for you and I to work together on an explanation when you and I disagree on those two major points, Neanderthal Man and the missing pocket. But one thing I would like to say is that I wouldn't assume that a person could go and buy a plaid shirt that matches another one. The odds are just too low that the same design could be found, and where the line transition from the body to sleeves are identical, etc.

I have some ideas on how the pocket could have disappeared, but they are far too wild for your tastes. They are even uncomfortable for me. But I can't pretend that Lovelady's shirt has a pocket. And I can't pretend that Neanderthal Man can possibly be Lovelady.

In addition, there is another hard-to-accept difficulty that I hope to present soon.

-- Tommy

PS Your statement that "I'm embarrassing myself" is a suggestion I refuse to accept.

PPS I really can see the top edge of a pocket in the "Groden shirt."

Here is a typical frame grab from a Hughes film. As usual, click to enlarge and then Ctrl +++ to zoom in more. Note the gray shirt.

Here is a frame grab from your video.

I wanted to show a reddish frame grab, but have reached my limit. Maybe I will delete one of the above later and post the reddish one.

Edited December 18, 2016 by Sandy Larsen

[Thomas Graves]

Dear Sandy,

Your number 2 sounds reasonable except for the fact that Lovelady was wearing a long-sleeved, reddish, non vertically-striped shirt over a white t-shirt on 11/22/63, as seen near the beginning of the Robert Hughes film (as the limo is approaching and passing by the TSBD).

That's an interesting video, Tommy. What I find most intriguing is that the guy's shirt matches Oswald's. You believe it is reddish, but I've grabbed numerous frames from this video and also from other copies of of the Hughes film and most show the shirt being a medium/dark gray color. Some frames show a reddish hue on the right. But in some of these the reddish hue extends down below shirt level.

See also "Doorman" in black-and-white Altgens 6, below. Bear in mind that after the limo passes by in Hughes, Lovelady moves from the wall position to the center handrail position, and is leaning out towards the camera in Altgens 6.

Robert Hughes film

Detail from Altgens 6. Note the black and white horizontal stripes on the sleeve and "button area."

What you see as plaid, I see as "beats me." Because the so-called plaid pattern of Lovelady's shirt extends down onto the black fellow's right hand and shirt sleeve. (His hand is raised and held as though he is shading his eyes from the sun. But the shot must have been taken as he was raising or lowering his hand because, as we see it here, it is too low to be providing shade.)

Ralph Cinque couldn't understand how Lovelady's arm could extend so far down. It's because he didn't realize that that isn't Lovelady's arm, it is the black guy's arm, wrist, and hand. If you study it carefully you can see his thumb. His four fingers are close together and his thumb extended out... just as most people do when shading their eyes.

BTW, the theory I'm developing has the FBI looking at this photo and thinking that Lovelady is wearing a plaid shirt. Then they see the video of a guy walking down Elm Street extension with Shelley Man, and they believe it's the same guy (Lovelady), when it really isn't. The thing I'm stuck on is that I expect Lovelady to be wearing the vertically-striped shirt he told the FBI he was wearing. But here we see he isn't. The shirt could be Oswald's -- and the guy Oswald -- but that doesn't work either because Altgens 6 photo was distributed right away. And the guy looks like Lovelady.

Which leads us to two non-conspiratorial , non paranoia-inducing possibilities: 1) Lovelady was wearing a baggy, previously-unwashed shirt on 11/22/63 which had shrunk by the time some unknown-to-me person photographed him in it a few years later, or 2) that Lovelady threw away the shirt sometime after 11/22/63, and then tried to buy a similar one for Groden's or that other person's "photo shoot." (Heck, he might have had a whole collection of similar shirts.) But then one must ask why did he buy one that was too small? Did someone else -- maybe his wife -- buy it for him? Was the smallish one the only one he or she could find on such short notice? Or did he like that kind of shirt (the 11/22/63 one) so much that he bought another one like it after throwing away "the original," and then it got washed in some too-hot water?.

Tommy, It is difficult for you and I to work together on an explanation when you and I disagree on those two major points, Neanderthal Man and the missing pocket. But one thing I would like to say is that I wouldn't assume that a person could go and buy a plaid shirt that matches another one. The odds are just too low that the same design could be found, and where the line transition from the body to sleeves are identical, etc.

I have some ideas on how the pocket could have disappeared, but they are far too wild for your tastes. They are even uncomfortable for me. But I can't pretend that Lovelady's shirt has a pocket. And I can't pretend that Neanderthal Man can possibly be Lovelady.

In addition, there is another hard-to-accept difficulty that I hope to present soon.

-- Tommy

PS Your statement that "I'm embarrassing myself" is a suggestion I refuse to accept.

PPS I really can see the top edge of a pocket in the "Groden shirt."

Here is a typical frame grab from a Hughes film. As usual, click to enlarge and then Ctrl +++ to zoom in more. Note the gray shirt.

oswald_or_lovelady_in hughes_film_2.jpg

Here is a frame grab from your video.

tommy's_oswald_or_lovelady_in hughes_film.jpg

I wanted to show a reddish frame grab, but have reached my limit. Maybe I will delete one of the above later and post the reddish one.

Dear Sandy,

Who says we're "working together"?

I'll have you know The Agency pays me darn good money to contradict everything you and Cowboy Bob say.

And, of course, to spread as much "disinfo" on this forum as possible...

-- Tommy

PS I wonder if there is anyone else (or anything else) in that same scene that we know was wearing something red (or that was red if we're talking about a thing rather than a person), based on their being photographically "captured" by someone other than Hughes? For color comparison purposes? Just an idea. I'm too tired to "research" it at the moment.

Edit: It looks like there's a woman wearing a reddish-colored dress standing across the street, about "an inch" to the left of the traffic signal ...

Another Edit: Bear in mind that Lovelady's plaid shirt was not a pure, solid red, but had fairly wide stripes of black, gray, and white "mixed into" it, which probably would have changed its appearance-from-a-distance "look" by a tone (or is it called "shade"?) or two. Also take into consideration the partial shade that Lovelady moves into and out of, at least ... partially.

Edited October 28, 2016 by Thomas Graves