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Tim Carroll

The "Whole Bay Of Pigs Thing"

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[quote=Tim Carroll,Nov 22 2004, 08:02 AM]

THE "WHOLE BAY OF PIGS THING": FROM DALLAS TO WATERGATE

*I am particularly indebted to Carl Oglesby, whose historical framework has guided me through decades of solitary analysis.

***

Tim: I read your paper with detailed interest. This is a fine job of research and your are to be commended. The younger generation would do well to look closely as to what you have submitted. There are many parts contained therein, I am sure, which will become a major part of future historical research. The referenced material is also a tremendous aid to following the paper. Send us more of the same.

P.S. who was the covert pilot? Is there any documentation you could provide as to his Identity?

Thanks Tosh Plumlee

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P.S. who was the covert pilot? Is there any documentation you could provide as to his Identity?

Thanks  Tosh Plumlee

Tosh,

I have no primary documentation that would make me feel comfortable with identifying the pilot. Of course, the pilot himself could simply say who it was....

Tim

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P.S. who was the covert pilot? Is there any documentation you could provide as to his Identity?

Thanks  Tosh Plumlee

Tosh,

I have no primary documentation that would make me feel comfortable with identifying the pilot. Of course, the pilot himself could simply say who it was....

Tim

Tim Very Good point. I think I can help you on this, although it will perhaps create a fire storm of debate. I have said many times that I would not do this because of the crazies out there in never never land, but because of the in depth research you have done on this matter and others, I decided to make an exception and take the heat.

The pilot was a cover name "Buck' Pearson (for the record) There were a series of flights from Marathon Florida involving Lisa Howard. They started around mid 1963. A number of cover stories were planted for her protection, as to how she left the USA for Cuba. The opening of this Chanel to Castro was said not to be a good one. President Kennedy thought otherwise. The covert operational cover story, in case the information became public. was for example: she went to Mexico. She went by private charter with the State Department, and the likes. She went to France and then Cuba, it was said. If uncovered it would be said " She worked this lead alone and without approval by the administration or ABC"..

She actually left from West Palm Beach after meeting with Kennedy on the first flight and stopped at Marathon and boarded a covert flight for Havana. The flight was cleared by Customs to fly through the AIDZ outside key west. The aircraft was a D-18 Twin Beach N-6800 (if I remember right) At one time Steve Guthrie owned this aircraft and it was based at L.B. Smith Aircraft, Miami International. On another time she left from a place in Bimini, because it was thought that this operation should not be launched from United States territory. The aircraft was a Twin Cessna 310 #97-LL that had been based at Hollywood Florida and belong to Jack Ryley.

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The pilot was a cover name "Buck' Pearson (for the record)  There were a series of flights from Marathon Florida involving Lisa Howard.  They started around mid 1963.  A number of cover stories were planted for her protection, as to how she left the USA for Cuba....  The flight was cleared by Customs to fly through the AIDZ outside Key West. 

Thanks for that Tosh,

Very important information. It has already been examined that the U.N. contacts between Carlos Lechuga and William Attwood probably leaked through wiretaps, but this makes me wonder if the Lisa Howard contacts were what leaked to the anti-Castroites. So by definition, when you say the flight was "cleared by Customs to fly through the AIDZ outside Key West," you are referencing Cesar Diosdado, correct?

Tim

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"Those peaceful overtures JFK made toward Castro you mention I believe are paramount to what happened in Dallas. When Vidal received the word via his network that an olive branch was to be extended, assassination plans began. IMO of course."

James,

As Alfredo Duran said, Kennedy became a "dialogueros" when the olive branch was extended to Castro. From that point, he was a marked man. It was the last straw in the 3 strike scenario.

1. Bay of Pigs, strike 1

2. Missile Crisis, strike 2

3. Backdoor diplomacy with Castro, strike 3, you're out

RJS

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Indeed, Richard.

The Duran comment is most interesting. He was of course in a situation at the time to understand what was happening amongst the more militant Cuban exiles.

I think we can say that several individuals had political motivations to kill the President and there was also some serious animosity and hatred toward JFK. All in all, a potent combination to spur action.

James

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As Alfredo Duran said, Kennedy became a "dialogueros" when the olive branch was extended to Castro. From that point, he was a marked man. It was the last straw in the 3 strike scenario.

1. Bay of Pigs, strike 1

2. Missile Crisis, strike 2

3. Backdoor diplomacy with Castro, strike 3, you're out

RJS

Richard,

While most people focus on the no-invasion pledge to settle the Missile Crisis as the element that would provoke such animosity, which is true as it relates to the anti-Castro Cubans, I consider the second, secret part of the deal to resolve the Crisis that was dynamite with the wrong people: the Joint Chiefs of Staff. JFK's secret deal to remove the Jupiter missiles from Turkey was literally treasonous to the minds of the generals, who were told by Assistant Secretary of Defense John McNaughton that if the missiles weren't removed within six months, JFK would order them shot out.

Also, as I have posted previously, there was a severe divide within the anti-Castro community. Artime, for example, was pulling in a quarter million dollars monthly for Second Naval Guerrilla. That's why researchers who explore the nuances of the myriad groups are performing such important work - people like Tim Gratz.

Tim

Edited by Tim Carroll

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John

The "Military Industrial Complex" speech by Eisenhower could have referred to the election of JFK after the U-2 event spoiled the Paris Peace Summit in May 1960. Did Eisenhower ralize that the CIA and KGB had the power to influence and direct the leadership of each country? I believe he knew that they did have this ability and how that folded into a Democratic society worried him.

Eisenhower's Mutually Assured Distruction was a policy that was leading to serious talks between two super powers because responsible leaders in both countries recognized that man now had the ability to destroy the world as it was then known. The U-2 Incident ended Eisenhower's last chance to move the world toward a greater peace.

Both the Soviets and the US had ardent cold warriors that were influenced by their own "right wing" elements. The US elements vowing to never be caught off guard in a Pearl Harbor type event again and those in the Soviet Union that had lived during the Nazi invasion which had killed some 20 million Soviet citizens while the Joe Kennedy's of the world were erging passive support for Hitler.

I believe Eisenhower, who had worked with every government and every military leader of the WWII era was keenly aware of the political situation (Military Industrial Complex) that existed in both the East and the West. His later frienship with Kennedy, I believe, came about because Kennedy was realizing that even the President does not control all facits of policy.

Jim Root

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An excellent article Tim. Thank you for those notes and references, this has given me a lot of leads I want to explore.

Like you I am convinced that Kennedy’s foreign policy holds the key to understanding his death. It is also highly significant that he tried to keep this policy secret from the CIA. I suspect the main reason for this is that he suspected that they would leak this information to his political opponents. It has to be remembered that in 1963 Kennedy owed his popularity because of his image of being a successful Cold War warrior. In reality, he was trying to bring an end to the Cold War. If this had got out, he would probably have lost to Goldwater in 1964.

Although I believe that the assassination of JFK was carried out by anti-Castro Cubans, I am not convinced that it was this group who organized it. I say this because the anti-Castro forces did not obtain their objective in killing JFK. Cuba was not invaded and Castro was not overthrown, even though all the evidence after the first couple of days suggested that it was indeed a Cuban/Soviet operation. Why? I have attempted to answer this in my seminar. (1) This is of course pure speculation on my part, as we will never be able to find out what was really going on in the head of Johnson in the days following the assassination.

One thing is certain, the anti-Castro Cubans would have felt a sense of betrayal. I think this comes out in the book, The Bay of Pigs by Hayes Johnson, Manuel Artime, Jose Perez San Roman, Erneido Oliva and Enrique Ruiz-Williams. (2) Hostility is not shown towards the Kennedys (they especially approve of the efforts made by the brothers to get their comrades released from prison in Cuba). Their hostility is towards the CIA and right-wing figures in America who they felt abandoned them after the Bay of Pigs.

There were two main groups who benefited from the death of Kennedy.

(1) Wealthy figures involved in the oil industry. The assassination of Kennedy allowed the oil depletion allowance to be kept at 27.5 per cent. It remained unchanged during the Johnson presidency. Soon after Johnson left office it dropped to 15 per cent. According to Robert Sherrill, Johnson played an important role in its introduction. (3) A close friend of Johnson was Robert Anderson, president of the Texas Mid-Continent Oil and Gas Association. Johnson and Sid Richardson managed to persuade Eisenhower to appoint Anderson as Secretary of Treasury (interestingly, they also tried to persuade Eisenhower to make Anderson his running mate in 1956 – however, he rejected this idea and kept Nixon). A few weeks after his appointment, Anderson was appointed to a cabinet committee to look at the oil industry. It was as a result of this committee that changes were made to the tax system to benefit certain figures in the oil industry (these measures actually hurt the small oil companies). 

(2) The Military Industrial Complex was the group that really benefited from the death of Kennedy. The end of the Cold War would have been disastrous for them. Instead, they got the Vietnam War and a massive increase in military spending. In fact, it could be argued, that it suited the MIC to have Castro in power in Cuba. This was a constant reminder to the American people why they needed to spend so much of the GNP on defending the country from the menace of communism. It communism could reach an island just a few hundred miles off the coast, surely it could reach America as well.

I am sure Eisenhower became aware of what Johnson was up to during his presidency. I believe Eisenhower’s last speech as president is highly significant. (4) Did you know that it was censored at the last moment. The original speech did not use the phrase the “Military Industrial Complex”. It originally used the phrase the “Military Industrial Congress Complex”. Eisenhower’s point was that senior politicians was involved in this conspiracy. At the last moment he was persuaded to remove the word "Congress". Eisenhower would have had Johnson in mind when he said this.

For those who don’t know it, this is what Eisenhower said in his last speech:

Three days from now, after half a century in the service of our country, I shall lay down the responsibilities of office as, in traditional and solemn ceremony, the authority of the Presidency is vested in my successor.

This evening I come to you with a message of leave-taking and farewell, and to share a few final thoughts with you, my countrymen...

Until the latest of our world conflicts, the United States had no armaments industry. American makers of plowshares could, with time and as required, make swords as well. But now we can no longer risk emergency improvisation of national defense; we have been compelled to create a permanent armaments industry of vast proportions. Added to this, three and a half million men and women are directly engaged in the defense establishment. We annually spend on military security more than the net income of all United States corporations.

This conjunction of an immense military establishment and a large arms industry is new in the American experience. The total influence - economic, political, even spiritual - is felt in every city, every State house, every office of the Federal government. We recognize the imperative need for this development. Yet we must not fail to comprehend its grave implications. Our toil, resources and livelihood are all involved; so is the very structure of our society.

In the councils of government, we must guard against the acquisition of unwarranted influence, whether sought or unsought, by the military-industrial complex. The potential for the disastrous rise of misplaced power exists and will persist.

We must never let the weight of this combination endanger our liberties or democratic processes. We should take nothing for granted. Only an alert and knowledgeable citizenry can compel the proper meshing of the huge industrial and military machinery of defense with our peaceful methods and goals, so that security and liberty may prosper together.

Notes

(1) http://educationforum.ipbhost.com/index.php?showtopic=2310

(2) Haynes Johnson, The Bay of Pigs (1964)

(3) Robert Sherrill, The Accidental President  (1967) 142-147

(4) Dwight Eisenhower, speech on the Military-Industrial Complex (17th January, 1961)

“Like you I am convinced that Kennedy’s foreign policy holds the key to understanding his death. It is also highly significant that he tried to keep this policy secret from the CIA. I suspect the main reason for this is that he suspected that they would leak this information to his political opponents. It has to be remembered that in 1963 Kennedy owed his popularity because of his image of being a successful Cold War warrior. In reality, he was trying to bring an end to the Cold War. If this had got out, he would probably have lost to Goldwater in 1964.”

While examining all the aspects of communism, anti-communism, Cubans, the CIA, FBI, NSA, secret assassination groups, the military-industrial-complex, etc in the role of JFK’s assassination, one must never forget the politics of Zionism that played a huge part in his death.

JFK was trying put pressure on Israel to give up their nuclear ambitions. He died and they got the bomb.

This aspect of the overall conspiracy is hardly discussed in forum groups. For those wanting more information, one good source is Michael Collins Piper’s book

Final Judgment: the Missing Link in the JFK Assassination Conspiracy

http://feralnews.com/issues/jfk/piper/piper.html

"There has been since almost the earliest days of the Israeli state and the earliest days of the CIA a secret bond, basically by which Israeli intelligence did jobs for the CIA and for the rest of American intelligence. You can't understand what's been going on with American covert operations and the Israeli covert operations until you understand this secret arrangement."

When I asked if the CIA and Mossad worked together back in 1963, James Files mentioned to me there were Mossad people present in Dealey Plaza he recognized. He didn’t want to elaborate other than “they had their aerial pictures and Langley had theirs” because he wasn’t sure if that was still classified information.

If you follow this trail you will end up in the past and current White House and the wars in the Middle East-in fact all the wars in SE Asia, South and Central America, Africa - basically all the wars. Yes the drugging and terrorizing of America is part of this safari but you will find the people you are looking for to solve this case.

Many have passed on but many are still playing the game. Hard line Israel played a major role in the 1980 October Surprise scandal with none other that George H.W. Bush as one of the big league players. This led to the Iran-Contra scandal, the Clintons in power...domestic and foreign state sponsored terrorism...it does not matter the label of Democrat or Republican.

I don’t know if the people want it solved or just if it is just too much to comprehend. What do people here think about this subject?

When this area is touched upon a spiritual and Biblical thread is woven into the conspiracy. Throw in the false evangelical prophets supporting this genocide and you get the picture. Since most people are not familiar with Zionism vs. true Judaism, an important part of this complex puzzle remains a mystery, a riddle wrapped in an enigma.

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The "Military Industrial Complex" speech by Eisenhower could have referred to the election of JFK after the U-2 event spoiled the Paris Peace Summit in May 1960.  Did Eisenhower realize that the CIA and KGB had the power to influence and direct the leadership of each country?  I believe he knew that they did have this ability and how that folded into a Democratic society worried him....  Eisenhower's Mutually Assured Destruction was a policy that was leading to serious talks between two super powers because responsible leaders in both countries recognized that man now had the ability to destroy the world as it was then known.  The U-2 Incident ended Eisenhower's last chance to move the world toward a greater peace.

Jim Root

Eisenhower was apparently duped into a massive and unnecessary nuclear build-up believing, as is said today, that peace can only be gained through strength - overwhelming and inequitable strength. The massive expenditures of the 1950s were known to be militarily unnecessary by Ike as a result of the top secret U-2 overflights. When Ike was caught in his lie, it not only ruined the chance for peace at the Paris Summit, but also severely damaged his own sense of self-honor in a publicly humiliating fashion. Historian Michael Beschloss described the following:

"John Eisenhower came to the Presidential cabin [at Camp David]. He loved his father and had been stung by the criticism of the past seven days. His anger focused on Allen Dulles. John rarely gave his father unsolicited advice, but now he told him that Dulles had let him down: Dulles had promised that a pilot would never be captured alive. John said, 'You ought to fire him.' This provoked a Vesuvian explosion. The President cried, 'I am not going to shift blame to my underlings!' As John later said, 'He let me know that I was a kid in short pants in no uncertain terms.' The outburst suggested to him that 'Dad was fighting a hard battle with himself internally about Dulles' and 'would like to have canned him.' This was not far from the mark. The President told Goodpaster and Gordon Gray that he never wanted to see Dulles alone again." [bolding emphasis added]*

*Michael Beschloss, Mayday: The U-2 Affair, (New York: Harper & Row Publishers, 1986) 271-272.

In a an earlier posting on this seminar, in a discussion with Ron Ecker, I failed to emphasize how much I admire and recommend Beschloss to students of history.

Tim

Edited by Tim Carroll

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[quote=William Plumlee,Nov 23 2004, 12:55 PM]The pilot was a cover name "Buck' Pearson (for the record) There were a series of flights from Marathon Florida involving Lisa Howard. They started around mid 1963. A number of cover stories were planted for her protection, as to how she left the USA for Cuba.... The flight was cleared by Customs to fly through the AIDZ outside Key West.

Thanks for that Tosh,

Very important information. It has already been examined that the U.N. contacts between Carlos Lechuga and William Attwood probably leaked through wiretaps, but this makes me wonder if the Lisa Howard contacts were what leaked to the anti-Castroites. So by definition, when you say the flight was "cleared by Customs to fly through the AIDZ outside Key West," you are referencing Cesar Diosdado, correct?

Tim

Tim; I would have no way of knowing that for sure. But if we had left United States airspace and was tracked by radar picket aircraft, boat or land base radar, coming and going out off and into the ADIZ then we would have been spotted and chase aircraft would have been dispatched from Key West NAS or Homestead AFB. It was a commond practice for Customs to have known something was in the air and it was not a 'boogy", and it was cleared by higher powers. Also note: the recordered Custom flight tracks would be erased for these authorized "overflight" aircraft.

Who would have received this information? I would have no way of knowing those names. (there would be more than one person in on the information or clearance) I know that more than one Custom official knew of our flights although they would not know what these flights were about or who was onboard and why.

I too, think leaks came from the Castro government or double agents in Miami and Cuba. I think international cables had been tapped by the CIA and this put Kennedy's secret mission in jeprody, almost before it got started.

Edited by William Plumlee

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Tim

You might enjoy reading, The Kennedys: America's Emerald Kings by Thomas Maier. In the book Maier gives an account of a visit by Allen Dulles to Joe Kennedy where Dulles assures Kennedy that his son will be the next President.

I hold to the belief that if the U-2 incident does not occur on May 1, 1960, John F. Kennedy does not become President! The fact that Oswasld was a radar operator at Astugi, Japan where the U-2's were flying out of at the time and the defection of Oswald to the Soviet Union make for a connection that I just can't get out of my mind.

The election of John F. Kennedy, perhaps, would not have occured if Oswald does not defect to the Soviet Union and Francis Gary Powers is not shot down. For me, the connection of General Edwin Walker to Maxwell Taylor and Taylor's rise to Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff under Kennedy makes me believe that Taylor may have had advance knowledge of the U-2 incident. Walker's tavel to Europe in October of 1959 coincides with Oswald's defection. Did Walker meet Oswald in Europe? I believe there is a legitimate possibility.

Jim Root

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"When I asked if the CIA and Mossad worked together back in 1963, James Files mentioned to me there were Mossad people present in Dealey Plaza he recognized. He didn’t want to elaborate other than “they had their aerial pictures and Langley had theirs” because he wasn’t sure if that was still classified information.

If you follow this trail you will end up in the past and current White House and the wars in the Middle East-in fact all the wars in SE Asia, South and Central America, Africa - basically all the wars. Yes the drugging and terrorizing of America is part of this safari but you will find the people you are looking for to solve this case.

Hard line Israel played a major role in the 1980 October Surprise scandal with none other that George H.W. Bush as one of the big league players. This led to the Iran-Contra scandal, the Clintons in power...domestic and foreign state sponsored terrorism...

When this area is touched upon a spiritual and Biblical thread is woven into the conspiracy. Throw in the false evangelical prophets supporting this genocide and you get the picture. Since most people are not familiar with Zionism vs. true Judaism, an important part of this complex puzzle remains a mystery, a riddle wrapped in an enigma."

"What do people here think about this subject?"

What do I think about your dissertation that Israel is responsible for every bad thing that's ever happened in the last 50 years? Israel was behind the assassination? In league with the mob and James Files? Iran Contra? Domestic and state sponsored terrorism??

At the risk of censure, you make me ill. You are a prime example of the lunatic fringe.

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I hold to the belief that if the U-2 incident does not occur on May 1, 1960, John F. Kennedy does not become President!...  The election of John F. Kennedy, perhaps, would not have occured if Oswald does not defect to the Soviet Union and Francis Gary Powers is not shot down.

Jim Root

Jim

The U-2 incident is a direct tie to the agenda of the Military Industrial Complex. I would suggest that you review the evidence that the U-2 was not shot down at all - that it had bad fuel on the longest U-2 flight ever. Allen Dulles' role is indeed intriguing, as well as Eisenhower's comment about never being left alone with Dulles again.

Tim

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When this area is touched upon a spiritual and Biblical thread is woven into the conspiracy. Throw in the false evangelical prophets supporting this genocide and you get the picture. Since most people are not familiar with Zionism vs. true Judaism, an important part of this complex puzzle remains a mystery, a riddle wrapped in an enigma."

"What do people here think about this subject?"

What do I think about your dissertation that Israel is responsible for every bad thing that's ever happened in the last 50 years? Israel was behind the assassination? In league with the mob and James Files? Iran Contra? Domestic and state sponsored terrorism??

At the risk of censure, you make me ill. You are a prime example of the lunatic fringe.

Richard,

I've been on a long phone call with a friend right at the junction where I was going to dare to respond to the courage of your statement at length. But perhaps, my use of the word courage can suffice for now. Thank you.

Tim

Edited by Tim Carroll

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