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Tim Carroll

The "Whole Bay Of Pigs Thing"

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Tim,

The meeting that Helms and McCone attended on the morning of 11/22/63 was with the President's Foreign Intelligence Advisory Board. That sounds like a different type of meeting than the one Ruiz-Williams said he attended.

As for your point that "the meeting...on the morning of 11/22/63...sounds like a different type of meeting than the one Ruiz-Williams said he attended," I would respond, again quoting the source you cited, Deadly Secrets, pg. 273, that Harry Ruiz-Williams was "Bobby's best-and-brightest choice to lead a renewed effort to get rid of Castro."

Tim,

I've happened across some more information about the 11/22/63 Foreign Intelligence Advisory Board meeting that Helms and McCone attended, which makes it even less likely that Ruiz-Williams was present. The meeting was not about Cuba, but about the fate of the CIA itself, an issue that Ruiz-Williams or other Cuban exiles would not be involved in.

But whether Ruiz-Williams was there or not, this meeting was remarkable. In "The Last Investigation: A Review" by Monte Evans, in The Fourth Decade, v. 1 no. 3, Evans says the following with regard to "the penultimate Washington insider, Clark Clifford" (p. 17):

"In his autobiography Counsel to the President, Clifford recalls where he was when he heard President Kennedy was shot. It seems he was chairing a meeting of the President's Foreign Intelligence Advisory Board, a little-known but awesomely powerful entity; one can liken it to the President's own hand-picked State Department. The subject of that November 22, 1963 PFIAB meeting was how to dismantle and re-structure the CIA in accordance with President Kennedy's desires. Fortunately for CIA, that matter was immediately shelved upon news of the President's passing. In other words, the shots in Dallas weren't fired an hour too soon as far as the CIA's fate was concerned. The monster's hydra-head was actually on the chop block, only to receive a last-moment reprieve in Dallas."

I don't recall any record of JFK's intentions regarding the CIA other than his alleged statement to Mike Mansfield or somebody that he wanted to "scatter it to the winds," and an NSAM by which he intended to move covert operations from the CIA to the military. But if the above description of the FIAB meeting is accurate, this is quite extraordinary. For this means that there were two separate gatherings in progress in Washington on 11/22/63 that were dealing with the fate of two of the main suspects in the assassination: the FIAB meeting on the fate of the CIA, and the Don Reynolds hearing on Capitol Hill that could decide the fate of Lyndon Johnson. That's quite a coincidence, and it's tremendous dramatic irony that the murder in Dallas got both the CIA and LBJ off the hook that day in two DC proceedings that never resumed.

Ron

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I've happened across some more information about the 11/22/63 Foreign Intelligence Advisory Board meeting that Helms and McCone attended, which makes it even less likely that Ruiz-Williams was present. The meeting was not about Cuba, but about the fate of the CIA itself, an issue that Ruiz-Williams or other Cuban exiles would not be involved in.

But whether Ruiz-Williams was there or not, this meeting was remarkable. In "The Last Investigation: A Review" by Monte Evans, in The Fourth Decade, v. 1 no. 3, Evans says the following with regard to "the penultimate Washington insider, Clark Clifford" (p. 17):

"In his autobiography Counsel to the President, Clifford recalls where he was when he heard President Kennedy was shot. It seems he was chairing a meeting of the President's Foreign Intelligence Advisory Board, a little-known but awesomely powerful entity; one can liken it to the President's own hand-picked State Department. The subject of that November 22, 1963 PFIAB meeting was how to dismantle and re-structure the CIA in accordance with President Kennedy's desires. Fortunately for CIA, that matter was immediately shelved upon news of the President's passing. In other words, the shots in Dallas weren't fired an hour too soon as far as the CIA's fate was concerned. The monster's hydra-head was actually on the chop block, only to receive a last-moment reprieve in Dallas."

But if the above description of the FIAB meeting is accurate, this is quite extraordinary. For this means that there were two separate gatherings in progress in Washington on 11/22/63 that were dealing with the fate of two of the main suspects in the assassination: the FIAB meeting on the fate of the CIA, and the Don Reynolds hearing on Capitol Hill that could decide the fate of Lyndon Johnson. That's quite a coincidence, and it's tremendous dramatic irony that the murder in Dallas got both the CIA and LBJ off the hook that day in two DC proceedings that never resumed.

Ron

Ron,

Apparently there were alot of meetings that morning, as we know that Bobby had just gotten home for lunch from a meeting with the Organized Crime Task Force when the news came from Hoover. The description of the FIAB meeting is "quite extraordinary." This is worthy of further research. I'm not familiar with the publication, The Fourth Decade, which you cite. And what year was the Evans article published?

Tim

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Tim,

The Fourth Decade (formerly The Third Decade) was a now defunct JFK journal published by Jerry Rose. The Evans article was published in March 1994.

I'm going to try to find a copy of Clifford's book to get the exact description of the meeting.

Ron

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I'm going to try to find a copy of Clifford's book to get the exact description of the meeting.

Ron,

Upon further research, I would agree with you that the meeting of the Intelligence Oversight Board was not the sort of meeting at which one would find Williams or Hunt. I found an interestingly descriptive portrayal of the McCone-Helms lunch following the morning's grilling by the Board in Beschloss's Crisis Years, page 672:

"The two men and several colleagues took their meal in a small room next to the Director's office that McCone called the 'French Room'.... Furnished with a round table, television, and easy chairs, the chamber was one of a maze of holding rooms designed by Allen Dulles so that visitors who did not wish to encounter one another did not risk doing so. A door flew open. McCone's aide Walter Elder cried out, 'President Kennedy has been shot!'"

It would still be interesting to obtain a full roster of those present for the meeting, which cannot be found in Clark Clifford's book.

Tim

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I'm going to try to find a copy of Clifford's book to get the exact description of the meeting.

Ron, meeting of the Intelligence Oversight Board = McCone-Helms lunch following the morning's grilling by the Board in Beschloss's Crisis Years, page 672:

"The two men and several colleagues took their meal in a small room next to the Director's office that McCone called the 'French Room'.... Furnished with a round table, television, and easy chairs, the chamber was one of a maze of holding rooms designed by Allen Dulles so that visitors who did not wish to encounter one another did not risk doing so. A door flew open. McCone's aide Walter Elder cried out, 'President Kennedy has been shot!'"

It would still be interesting to obtain a full roster of those present for the meeting, which cannot be found in Clark Clifford's book.

Tim

Utah Senator Robert Bennett was the CIA corporate frontman for a number of domestic operations through out the twentieth century. When Bennett ran the Robert K Mullen office of public lobbying, he carried out covert domestic CIA projects liasson funtions. These had to be denied when his assistants James McCord Howard Hunt and a "sixth man" named I believe Russell, the Watergate burglary team itself had been part of the Mullen Co (Bennett) front.

The 1972-1974 political crisis re-surfaced intense scrutiny on Mullen, Hughes (Maheu was Mullen, if I remember). Heinous breakdown of the Wall of separation.

Part of the Church Rockefeller Colby reforms. The illegal US work was done by Mullen; and Hunt was payroll.

Howard Hunt had highest CIA domestic operations license in 1963.

Retired 1970. Sent packages to Agency after retirement, possible false exit.

The domestic (illegal off-charter NSC-1947 violations) operations were exposed.

The Hughes and Larry O'brien industrial espionage game plays some role in this.

James McCord (A Piece Of Tape 1974, Imprint) was an industrial espionage expert, he taught industrial espionage. This is the context for the Office of Security agent John Paisley's death and strange liason role in the Washington burglary and plans interface, he was the CIA OS case officer that actually knew all about the Watergate burglaring from the point of view of the observers in the escort ring group. Paisley was in an unsustainable quandry, and knew too much.

So the Cubans weren't all Cuban, Hunt and McCord and radiohost columnist Gordon Liddy were beltway Anglos, with a very obscure and occluded tasking and methodologies. In May 1972 the dinner at the Watergate, the team stayed late unsuccessful

May 19th (/) the tapings, sneaking up the stairs (when was the alias sign-ins? that night I believe) the whole thing blew sky high when the doors began to be torn off their hinges, total giveaway, loud, banging...not just tape hints, real crowbar stuff in the Watergate, a few stories above the National reserve bank, Mr Sturgis made a dreadful racket. I think McCord signed in at the reserve, and Mr Russell left, and their was a team in the hotel across the street, Liddy, Hunt and one other young man (name) It was a burglary. Mitchell had evidently okayed the plan to Liddy, Dean and Haldeman tried to use it to some advantage, no one in the Oval Office has as good a motive as the trickbook interests.

Meanwhile RBennett and his phony Mullen Co. is doing known illegal domestic operations with the same characters. Hunt and McCord, Cubans

The theory that the Watergate burglary concerned the prostituition ring, an ongoing blackmail and political extortion ring? Have you heard about the trick book, the lawsuit over even naming the woman with the supposed trick book at the democratic state headquarters desk in the mid 1972 may election season?

And I am the one who says the theory needs more specifics, and Bennetts realtionship to those mercenary outings and madcap commando programs, those plans remained secret.

How they interfaced with the Nixon oval office is not really totally clear.

This was the WH flap. The WH flap was not the WH white house, all though it is ambiguously suggestive of the oval office.

The WH flap was all about western hemisphere station Mexico City, the WH, where Hunt took orders as a WH domestic plans figure.

When Howard Hunt and Doug Caddy hit the headlines, Robert Bennett and his CIA front contacts had to clean things out and check in with helms. This period is recorded in documentation of Mullen requesting continuance despite the agencies dismantling of the watergate sheraton observation and information team.

Then Paisley got whacked and nobody wanted to talk about it any more.

Am I right, Tim? Or what?

Shanet

Edited by Shanet Clark

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I'm going to try to find a copy of Clifford's book to get the exact description of the meeting.

Ron,

Upon further research, I would agree with you that the meeting of the Intelligence Oversight Board was not the sort of meeting at which one would find Williams or Hunt. I found an interestingly descriptive portrayal of the McCone-Helms lunch following the morning's grilling by the Board in Beschloss's Crisis Years, page 672:

"The two men and several colleagues took their meal in a small room next to the Director's office that McCone called the 'French Room'.... Furnished with a round table, television, and easy chairs, the chamber was one of a maze of holding rooms designed by Allen Dulles so that visitors who did not wish to encounter one another did not risk doing so. A door flew open. McCone's aide Walter Elder cried out, 'President Kennedy has been shot!'"

It would still be interesting to obtain a full roster of those present for the meeting, which cannot be found in Clark Clifford's book.

Tim

Utah Senator Robert Bennett was the CIA corporate frontman for a number of domestic operations through out the twentieth century....

I think McCord signed in there, and Mr Russell left, and their was a team in the hotel across the street, Liddy, Hunt and one other young man (name) [baldwin]....

Meanwhile r.bennett and his phony mullen co. is doing known illegal domestic operations with the same characters.

The theory that the watergate burglary concerned the prostittuition ring, an ongoing blackmain and political extortion ring? Hane you heard about the trick book, the lawsuit over even naming the woman with the supposed trick book at the democratic state headquarters desk in the mid 1972 may election season.

And I am the one who says the theory needs more specifics, and Bennetts realtionship to those mercenaryoutings and madcap commando programs, those plans remained secret. How they interface with the Nixon oval office is not really totally clear.

The prostitution ring had formerly included Maureen Dean, and Bennett is my candidate for Deep Throat.

Tim

Edited by Tim Carroll

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Sanitized

Tim,

I am afraid technically you mustn't ever say it so absolutely. It is a theory with quite a bit of speculation and unknown details. Very few people have ever seen the inside of the "Clout trickbook" full of DC high end hookers.

The key to the desk is the key, how did the burglars get the key to ********** desk? Did zzzzzzzz have it?

ZZZZZZ says he got permission from Haldeman for all this stuff, but he didn't.

Magruder didn't know what was going on, he was intimidated by Liddy.

Mitchell was non-committal and nodded some permission to Gordon. As far as the alleged Trickbook theory goes, well zzzzzzzzzz and Xxxxxxxxxxxxxx persue litigation when declaratives are used defaming said spouse and besides, we don't know if its true. The courts throw a fairly heavy cloak and wide range over who is not a public figure. For instance, despite her prominence in the Democratic Party, the complainant against Mr Liddy, who was repeating the story.

Apparently, **********, a public figure and ********* was claiming to be a private figure and it held against Liddy, despite being a President's secretary.

The judge ruled you couldn't say she had a trickbook full of whores in her desk at the Wategate's Democratic Headquarters, or she'd sue, because she was a private figure and it wasn't true and she didn't know what they were taking about.

xxxxxxxxxxx was allegedly "Clout" because zzzzzzzzz was Nixon's#####.

Clout, the listing in the trickbook that zzzzzzzzz was supposedly tasking the team towards (an unsupported allegation, legally) was his wife xxx and she had been mixed up with her roommate, and the senators and foreign dignitaries were getting their slacks washed and the central file was picking up tidbits and all was well, at the sheraton, if you wanted to get laid (50s) or turn a trick (20 somethings).

The Prostitution Trickbook Theory concerning the ######, xxxxxxx the Stunning Blonde and the horny democratic state officers is a titillating and Profumoesque angle on the Watergate, but it again drags to Paisley, Bennett and Dallas 1963.

But the pimp was too crazy and dropped out and the court dockets were moved then destroyed.

Get it, Clout? Like Klute.

KLUTE film, Jane Fonda and Donald Sutherland 1971.

Edited by Shanet Clark

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Sanitized

Tim,

I am afraid technically you mustn't ever say it so absolutely. It is a theory with quite a bit of speculation and unknown details. Very few people have ever seen the inside of the "Clout trickbook" full of DC high end hookers.

The key to the desk is the key, how did the burglars get the key to ********** desk? The Prostitution Trickbook Theory concerning the ######, xxxxxxx  the Stunning Blonde and the horny democratic state officers is a titillating and Profumoesque angle on the Watergate, but it again drags to Paisley, Bennett and Dallas 1963.

But the pimp was too crazy and dropped out and the court dockets were moved then destroyed.

Get it, Clout? Like Klute.

Shanet:

I agree, and loathe overcertainty and absolutism. I did name the stunning blonde, but not ######. Now when you remind me of Profumo, I think about the East German prostitute, Ellie Romesch, supplied to JFK by Bobby Baker. I am also not at all intending to convey certainty in naming Bob Bennett at the top of my list of candidates for Deep Throat.

Tim

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I'm going to try to find a copy of Clifford's book to get the exact description of the meeting.

Ron,

Upon further research, I would agree with you that the meeting of the Intelligence Oversight Board was not the sort of meeting at which one would find Williams or Hunt. I found an interestingly descriptive portrayal of the McCone-Helms lunch following the morning's grilling by the Board in Beschloss's Crisis Years, page 672:

"The two men and several colleagues took their meal in a small room next to the Director's office that McCone called the 'French Room'.... Furnished with a round table, television, and easy chairs, the chamber was one of a maze of holding rooms designed by Allen Dulles so that visitors who did not wish to encounter one another did not risk doing so. A door flew open. McCone's aide Walter Elder cried out, 'President Kennedy has been shot!'"

It would still be interesting to obtain a full roster of those present for the meeting, which cannot be found in Clark Clifford's book.

Tim

Utah Senator Robert Bennett was the CIA corporate frontman for a number of domestic operations through out the twentieth century....

I think McCord signed in there, and Mr Russell left, and their was a team in the hotel across the street, Liddy, Hunt and one other young man (name) [baldwin]....

Meanwhile r.bennett and his phony mullen co. is doing known illegal domestic operations with the same characters.

The theory that the watergate burglary concerned the prostittuition ring, an ongoing blackmain and political extortion ring? Hane you heard about the trick book, the lawsuit over even naming the woman with the supposed trick book at the democratic state headquarters desk in the mid 1972 may election season.

And I am the one who says the theory needs more specifics, and Bennetts realtionship to those mercenaryoutings and madcap commando programs, those plans remained secret. How they interface with the Nixon oval office is not really totally clear.

The prostitution ring had formerly included Maureen Dean, and Bennett is my candidate for Deep Throat.

Tim

I do not believe Maureen (then unmarried) was ever shown to be a member of the prostitution ring but her room-mate was the madam of the ring. It is the theory of the book Silent Coup that John Dean orchestrated the cover-up in large part to protect Maureen. I ran into a good synopsis of the theory that the CIA deliberately caused the Watergate burglars to be caught. I'll post it tomorrow (need time to relocate it).

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(Sanitized for my protection)

Great, look forward to reading that.

Joan Hoff, the mainstream academic historian of Watergate, she leans toward the prostitution theory, based on the procurement case against PHILIP MACKIN BAILLEY

....and yes, from the fragmentary evidence we have, Ms. XXXXXXXXXX

was a featured name in Cathy Dieter's evidential Trickbook of the pimp Mr. Bailley.

As far as sex-trades go, there are the girls of the Carousel Club in Dallas, hanging on Jack Ruby, there is "Inga Binga", Inga Arvad and of course the MK/Ultra swank pad whores, these pros are standard issue in any Capitol city counter-intelligence setup, by compromising public figures, these prostitutes fueled the wiretapping and listening post craze around the Potomac River circa 1972.

Prostitutes and electronic listening devices, one way mirrors and cameras were just too much fun, too easy not to delve into. Hence Mullen, Paisley and Hunt intersect with Dieter, the trickbook and XXXXXXXXX, ########'s new wife.

SUPPOSEDLY, and this isn't firm, YYYYYYYYYYYY, Carter's secretary later, had the trickbook in her desk that Sturgis and MArtinez and Bernard Barker were all looking for.

Most of the second hand hearsay about the content of the illegal Watergate phone logs transcribed before the burglary of May 19, most accounts of these cite sexual trysting and promiscuous content, on the Liddy to Mitchell phone tap logs of the Democratic HQ.

Its all in SECRET AGENDA and you can pull up the civil trials. Leading historical theory of Watergate, the trickbook angle. Can't talk about it though....

Edited by Shanet Clark

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(Sanitized for my protection)

Great, look forward to reading that.

Joan Hoff, the mainstream academic historian of Watergate, she leans toward the prostitution theory, based on the procurement case against PHILIP MACKIN BAILLEY

....and yes, from the fragmentary evidence we have, Ms. XXXXXXXXXX

was a featured name in Cathy Dieter's evidential Trickbook of the pimp Mr. Bailley.

As far as sex-trades go, there are the girls of the Carousel Club in Dallas, hanging on Jack Ruby, there is "Inga Binga", Inga Arvad and of course the MK/Ultra swank pad whores, these pros are standard issue in any Capitol city counter-intelligence setup, by compromising public figures, these prostitutes fueled the wiretapping and listening post craze around the Potomac River circa 1972.

Prostitutes and electronic listening devices, one way mirrors and cameras were just too much fun, too easy not to delve into.  Hence Mullen, Paisley and Hunt intersect with Dieter, the trickbook and XXXXXXXXX,  ########'s new wife.

SUPPOSEDLY, and this isn't firm, YYYYYYYYYYYY, Carter's secretary later, had the trickbook in her desk that Sturgis and MArtinez and Bernard Barker were all looking for.

Most of the second hand hearsay about the content of the illegal Watergate phone logs transcribed before the burglary of May 19, most accounts of these cite sexual trysting and promiscuous content, on the Liddy to Mitchell phone tap logs of the Democratic HQ. 

Its all in SECRET AGENDA and you can pull up the civil trials. Leading historical theory of Watergate, the trickbook angle. Can't talk about it though....

________________________________-

Shanet:

It was so obvious that Nixon was set up. Recall that McCord, an alleged security pro, placed the tape over the door lock at Watergate not in a vertical fashion- (to ensure security)- but horizontally, to ensure discovery! Then when this was discovered by the security guard, Frank Will, who removed the tape, McCord does the same thing AGAIN.

This was NOT an accident. It was clear to me by early 73 that this had been a CIA set-up.

As to the trick book theroy....I need to know more on that one. It would explain the blond's husband, but there are other explanations too.

Will you be able to speak more openly on this sometime soon????

Tim: Really enjoying this article and the threads!! Think I might print them off and send to Carl. Great work everyone.

Dawn

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The prostitution ring had formerly included Maureen Dean, and Bennett is my candidate for Deep Throat.

I do not believe Maureen (then unmarried) was ever shown to be a member of the prostitution ring but her room-mate was the madam of the ring. It is the theory of the book Silent Coup that John Dean orchestrated the cover-up in large part to protect Maureen.

I should have more accurately said the prostitution ring had formerly involved Maureen Dean.

Tim Carroll

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There's a good summary of Watergate in the appendix ("The Key to Watergate") of Liddy's book When I Was a Kid, This Was Still a Free Country. He means "key" literally, as the key found on Watergate burglar Martinez fit one desk, that of the secretary who kept the photos of prostitutes to be shown to out-of-town guests. A compromising photo therein of Dean's fiance was what the burglars were after. Liddy, who gives credit to the book Silent Coup, is thus convinced that Dean was behind the burglary, and that Dean betrayed his client Nixon "to save his own worthless skin."

The secretary sued Liddy for defamation when he portrayed her in public appearances as a procurer of prostitutes for men who visited the DNC. The secretary lost the case. At the conclusion of the book, Liddy says, "It has taken ten years and the expenditure of great energy and treasure to crush the Watergate rat, John Dean. It is personally gratifying, of course."

Edited by Ron Ecker

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Let's not forget that Dean "borrowed" money without any authorization from the RNC coffers to take Maureen on their lavish honeymoon.

Tim

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Let's not forget that Dean "borrowed" money without any authorization from the RNC coffers to take Maureen on their lavish honeymoon.

Tim

Here's a link to "The Key to Watergate" , a documentary that is about that

"callgirl-ring theory".

I haven't watched the film for over a year, but what I can remember as

most revealing is, when Liddy talkes about the "alledged" murder plot

,Hunt and Liddy agreed on, against the journalist Anderson (if I remember right).

http://www.nixonera.com/library/watergate.asp

Thanks to Nancy for giving me the link last year.

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