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Tim Carroll

The "Whole Bay Of Pigs Thing"

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I'll check further, but a Watergate article vintage 1972 named Bennett of Mullen Company as son of Sen Bennett.  I'll recheck though!

Tim Gratz:

Please don't take my assertion as an "attack," as I have nothing more to base my contesting of your assertion about your Bob Bennett having to be 20 years old or less on anything other than simple math. Perhaps E. Howard Hunt was employed by an almost teenaged ad-man, fronting for the CIA at Mullen, and possibly providing Woodward and Bernstein with the inside scoop under the psuedonym Deep Throat. It reminds me of the cruciality of your disputation of the date of Hunt's recommendation for the assassination of Castro, despite it not having been stated in the first place. When these discussions are sidetracked with ridiculous issues that involve outrageously "fuzzy math," it reminds me of how the American people could have been so misled as to have their Social Security trust fund destroyed in four short years by tax cuts to the wealthy. Forgive me for thinking that you're smarter than your petty distractions indicate.

Tim Carroll

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I'll check further, but a Watergate article vintage 1972 named Bennett of Mullen Company as son of Sen Bennett.  I'll recheck though!

Tim Gratz:

Please don't take my assertion as an "attack," as I have nothing more to base my contesting of your assertion about your Bob Bennett having to be 20 years old or less on anything other than simple math. Perhaps E. Howard Hunt was employed by an almost teenaged ad-man, fronting for the CIA at Mullen, and possibly providing Woodward and Bernstein with the inside scoop under the psuedonym Deep Throat. It reminds me of the cruciality of your disputation of the date of Hunt's recommendation for the assassination of Castro, despite it not having been stated in the first place. When these discussions are sidetracked with ridiculous issues that involve outrageously "fuzzy math," it reminds me of how the American people could have been so misled as to have their Social Security trust fund destroyed in four short years by tax cuts to the wealthy. Forgive me for thinking that you're smarter than your petty distractions indicate.

Tim Carroll

Tim, I'm not sure if it makes any difference to the subject of this Forum (the assassination of JFK) who Bob Bennett was. But I do believe that Shanet and Chris are correct that the current Sen Bennett was the Bennett of Mullen Company. I just looked at Sen. Bennett's biography on his web-site and he is the son of former U.S. Senator Wallace Bennett.

Whether or not Sen Bennett was "Deep Throat" I have no clue, other than it does fit with the conspiratorialist theory that the CIA was trying to undermine the presidency of Richard Nixon.

A link to the story of the Liddy court victory of Liddy over former Dem secretary Maxie Wells:

http://www.liddyletter.com/letter/victory.htm

Edited by Tim Gratz

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Tim, I'm not sure if it makes any difference to the subject of this Forum (the assassination of JFK) who Bob Bennett was. 

Tim Gratz:

In post #87 you made the unequivocal statement with regard to the current senator from Utah: "Quite sure Robert Bennett of Mullen Company was the son of the Senator." Whenever you get your quibbling facts wrong, they suddenly make no difference. That's very convenient.

Tim Carroll

Edited by Tim Carroll

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Tim, I'm not sure if it makes any difference to the subject of this Forum (the assassination of JFK) who Bob Bennett was. 

Tim Gratz:

In post #87 you made the unequivocal statement with regard to the current senator from Utah: "Quite sure Robert Bennett of Mullen Company was the son of the Senator." Whenever you get your quibbling facts wrong, they suddenly make no difference. That's very convenient.

Tim Carroll

All this personal stuff is silly, Tim. You just posted a reply in another thread that I was "offensively pedantic" and I apologized for offending you. Let's cut out the personal stuff (and I have no idea why it started). We have more important things to accomplish here!

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Let's cut out the personal stuff (and I have no idea why it started).  We have more important things to accomplish here!

The above quote misleadingly implies a one-sided personalization. As you can see from my posts and answers to others of your questions on this and other threads, I've worked diligently to uphold the standard of debate between us. After wasting much time in lengthy personal e-mail exchanges, I wrote the following:

Lastly, I will note that we had extensive e-mail contact until I finally terminated it by asking you why this was being done in private rather than on the forum. It is misleading to make it appear on the post that, as you say: you "have no idea why it started." I only write this now so that forum readers can understand the extent and style of the backchannel communicating. If you especially note the effort I've made just today on the "Hall" thread, then you will see that I'm still trying to do more than my share of advancing discussion and answering your questions.

A style which first says you are "quite sure" of something, then when it is shown to be remarkably improbable you're "not sure it makes any difference," constitutes too much of a moving target for the effort this debate requires.

And now perhaps you have a better idea of my view of the genesis of the "personal stuff," given that my efforts to explain such in the e-mails is being discounted. With that said, I hope we can be debating buddies, but please don't continue to make me repeatedly address misquoted statements. That was and is perturbing. Your good faith would be well-shown by a meaningful and extensive contribution to this seminar, without overly prejudging what relates to Watergate and what does not. To reiterate, the theme is the cross-pollinated thread of anti-Castro, CIA and Military Industrial interests that led to the downfall of three presidencies in just over a decade.

Tim Carroll

Edited by Tim Carroll

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Edited by Tim Carroll

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[Tim

I do not believe Maureen (then unmarried) was ever shown to be a member of the prostitution ring but her room-mate was the madam of the ring. It is the theory of the book Silent Coup that John Dean orchestrated the cover-up in large part to protect Maureen. I ran into a good synopsis of the theory that the CIA deliberately caused the Watergate burglars to be caught. I'll post it tomorrow (need time to relocate it).

MO DEAN'S OLD BOYFRIEND, BEDFORD WYNNE

There is another remarkable, if perhaps coincidental, connection between Watergate and the events surrounding the Kennedy assassination.

We had previously discussed the theory that the Watergate burglary was really about a high-class call girl ring being run out of the Democrat National Committee. In the book Silent Coup, Len Colodny advances the theory that John Dean orchestrated the break-in and the cover-up because his fiancé, Mo Biner (who he later married) was the room-mate of the head of the call-girl ring. (Contrary to a previous posting on this site, I am unaware of any writer that claims that Mo herself was a prostitute.)

It turns out that Mo Biner had a very interesting boyfriend before she met John Dean. His name was Bedford Wynne. Bedford Wynne was the senior partner of the Dallas law firm of Wynne, Jaffe and Tinsley, and he served as the Washington troubleshooter for the Murchison oil and construction interests in Texas. A true wheeler-dealer, in January of 1963 Wynne raised $500,000 (in 1963 dollars, remember!) for the Texas Democrat Party.

Perhaps parenthetically, one member of Bedford Wynne’s firm, Morris Jaffe, was the attorney for the mysterious Baron George de Mohrenschildt.

We already know that around the time of the assassination the congressional investigation of the Bobby Baker scandal was heating up. The November 22, 1963

edition of Life magazine reported that Bedford Wynne was a member of Bobby

Baker’s Quorum Club, which had become notorious as a place of assignation between politicians and call girls. Ellen Rometsch had been one of the call girls associated with the Quorum Club. Rometsch’s lovers included President Kennedy and a member of the Soviet Embassy, the same kind of relationship that had caused the Profumo scandal in England. Robert Kennedy had to appeal to J. Edgar Hoover to intervene with the leaders of the Senate to stop the investigation into the "sex angle" of the Bobby Baker case. The exposure of Kennedy's link to Rometsch could have brought down his presidency, but for the intervention of J. Edgar Hoover.

(Hoover's participation in this matter is one reason I doubt he had any involvement in the assassination. Had he wanted to destroy the Kennedy presidency, he had far easier ways to do so than a complicated assassination scheme. Of course, it is possible that if Kennedy had been toppled by a scandal in 1963, it could have destroyed Johnson's candicacy in 1964. And, as we know, Johnson was facing his own issues.)

Wynne’s family controlled the Great Southwest Corporation in Dallas, a firm that played an important role in the events immediately after the assassination.

At 6:30 on Sunday morning, November 24, Marguerite Oswald called Peter

Gregory, a friend of Lee and Marina Oswald, who had been giving Russian lessons to Marguerite. She asked Gregory to help get her and Marina a place to stay away

from media attention. Gregory called a secret service agent who made reservations for them at the Inn of the Six Flags, in a Dallas suburb. The Inn was one of the principal real estate assets of the Great Southwest Corporation. At the Inn, Marina met its manager, James Herbert Martin, who soon became her personal manager. It was Martin who negotiated the sale of the backyard photographs to Life magazine. (A FBI record linked Martin with a semi-underworld character, but this report was not disclosed until 1972).

In February of 1964 Marina fired Martin and replaced him with William A. McKenzie, a lawyer who had been a college friend of Bedford Wynnne and, until late 1963, a member of Bedford Wynne’s firm of Wynne, Jaffe and Tinsley. In late 1963 or early 1964 McKenzie entered a law partnership with Peter White. The new office number of the McKemzie-White firm was found in the notebook of Jack Ruby’s assistant Larry Crafard. White testified that he had “bumped into” Jack Ruby on November 20, 1963.

There is much more to the story of the prominence of the Great Souuthwest Corporation and the Bedford Wynne firm in the events following the assassination. It is detailed in Chapter Eighteen of Peter Dale Scott’s masterful

book “Deep Politics and the Death of JFK”.

.

Edited by Tim Gratz

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There is another remarkable, if perhaps coincidental, connection between Watergate and the events surrounding the Kennedy assassination.

We had previously discussed the theory that the Watergate burglary was really about a high-class call girl ring being run out of the Democrat National Committee. In the book Silent Coup, Len Colodny advances the theory that John Dean orchestrated the break-in and the cover-up because his fiancé, Mo Biner (who he later married) was the room-mate of the head of the call-girl ring. (Contrary to a previous posting on this site, I am unaware of any writer that claims that Mo herself was a prostitute.)

It turns out that Mo Biner had a very interesting boyfriend before she met John Dean. His name was Bedford Wynne. Bedford Wynne was the senior partner of the Dallas law firm of Wynne, Jaffe and Tinsley, and he served as the Washington troubleshooter for the Murchison oil and construction interests in Texas. A true wheeler-dealer, in January of 1963 Wynne raised $500,000 (in 1963 dollars, remember!) for the Texas Democrat Party.

Perhaps parenthetically, one member of Bedford Wynne’s firm, Morris Jaffe, was the attorney for the mysterious Baron George de Mohrenschildt.

We already know that around the time of the assassination the congressional investigation of the Bobby Baker scandal was heating up. The November 22, 1963

edition of Life magazine reported that Bedford Wynne was a member of Bobby

Baker’s Quorum Club, which had become notorious as a place of assignation between politicians and call girls. Ellen Rometsch had been one of the call girls associated with the Quorum Club. Rometsch’s lovers included President Kennedy and a member of the Soviet Embassy, the same kind of relationship that had caused the Profumo scandal in England. Robert Kennedy had to appeal to J. Edgar Hoover to intervene with the leaders of the Senate to stop the investigation into the "sex angle" of the Bobby Baker case. The exposure of Kennedy's link to Rometsch could have brought down his presidency, but for the intervention of J. Edgar Hoover.

(Hoover's participation in this matter is one reason I doubt he had any involvement in the assassination. Had he wanted to destroy the Kennedy presidency, he had far easier ways to do so than a complicated assassination scheme. Of course, it is possible that if Kennedy had been toppled by a scandal in 1963, it could have destroyed Johnson's candicacy in 1964. And, as we know, Johnson was facing his own issues.)

Wynne’s family controlled the Great Southwest Corporation in Dallas, a firm that played an important role in the events immediately after the assassination.

At 6:30 on Sunday morning, November 24, Marguerite Oswald called Peter

Gregory, a friend of Lee and Marina Oswald, who had been giving Russian lessons to Marguerite. She asked Gregory to help get her and Marina a place to stay away

from media attention. Gregory called a secret service agent who made reservations for them at the Inn of the Six Flags, in a Dallas suburb. The Inn was one of the principal real estate assets of the Great Southwest Corporation. At the Inn, Marina met its manager, James Herbert Martin, who soon became her personal manager. It was Martin who negotiated the sale of the backyard photographs to Life magazine. (A FBI record linked Martin with a semi-underworld character, but this report was not disclosed until 1972).

In February of 1964 Marina fired Martin and replaced him with William A. McKenzie, a lawyer who had been a college friend of Bedford Wynnne and, until late 1963, a member of Bedford Wynne’s firm of Wynne, Jaffe and Tinsley. In late 1963 or early 1964 McKenzie entered a law partnership with Peter White. The new office number of the McKemzie-White firm was found in the notebook of Jack Ruby’s assistant Larry Crafard. White testified that he had “bumped into” Jack Ruby on November 20, 1963.

There is much more to the story of the prominence of the Great Souuthwest Corporation and the Bedford Wynne firm in the events following the assassination. It is detailed in Chapter Eighteen of Peter Dale Scott’s masterful

book “Deep Politics and the Death of JFK”.

Tim Gratz:

Great post! I especially admire the insightful analysis of Hoover's role in the Rometsch affair, which directly paralleled the Profumo scandal in England. Why would Hoover assist in getting Rometsch out of the country and covering for JFK if he wanted him discredited, unless it was the timing? These events were happening at the same time that the Bobby Baker scandal was near its breaking point, which would have ruined LBJ's chances in 1964. Even without the Bobby Baker trouble, a Rometsch scandal alone would have tainted LBJ, albeit unjustifiably. The Texas connections become so byzantine they're hard to follow. By making this connection to Mo Dean's former boyfriend, the Dallas to Watergate connection is further established. And then there's deMorenschildt, who was related to Jackie Kennedy, and had his own Washington connections, stopping over there on his way to Haiti in April, 1963.

Tim

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I had done a list of emails to Gordon Liddy, Finally did hear back from him from his sec. a message over to me. READ MY BOOKS. That was from one of the responses.

I contacted John Dean through Salon.com and he was to answer our questions and or statements. NEVER HEARD FROM HIM.

Dean goes silent on so much. Liddy on the other hand doesn't.

Unmasking Deep Throat was done fast and pushed out fast as if Dean had a time line to get the book done.

Liddy goes on and on.

But what Liddy's real deep comment to me was this, "I am tired of Watergate." YEAH I GOT THAT FROM HIM.

Wonder why so much silence from Dean, he does say somethings but deep down he is silent. Except on Mo his wife and that he does comment is a bunch of bologna. Frankly, I do think Dean is correct IT IS NONSENSE.

If this about the key were to be pushed out sooner rather than hidden I might say there is something to it but it was silenced. WHY? For a call girl thing? NO, NO WAY. It is stupid and doens't make any sense.

I don't even think Hunt would go for that one. NOT AT ALL.

Why would Hunt blackmail Pres. Nixon? What would Nixon wish to break in to the watergate hotel to just get a key to the desk that they never even used on the desk for a call girl ring to get a picture of Mo???

COME ON?

NO WAY.

It doesn't even begin to cut the a grain of salt to what it was meant for.

Why would Martinez be so silent about the key and say nothing? It was attached to his notebook?

Why was the room already bugged prior and the break in team PLUMBERS were with tapping equipment.

According to Files knowing half the watergate team, he knew most of them were not equiped to handle that type of job. ONLY ONE. WHY? Files didn't know one was sort of qualifed to do that type of work.

Yes, I do have this in another letter from Jimmy. Of course he knew Sturgis this one is fact. Martinez is NOT one that Jimmy knew. I named him to him several times and he never would comment. Sort of cornered him on that one. Except for a high comment about the key. It was not the comments from me to him about it being a call girl thing nor did he ever comment that it was a call girl thing either.

I knew Files knew Liddy, Hunt very well.

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[

Great post!  I especially admire the insightful analysis of Hoover's role in the Rometsch affair, which directly paralleled the Profumo scandal in England.  Why would Hoover assist in getting Rometsch out of the country and covering for JFK if he wanted him discredited, unless it was the timing?  These events were happening at the same time that the Bobby Baker scandal was near its breaking point, which would have ruined LBJ's chances in 1964.  Even without the Bobby Baker trouble, a Rometsch scandal alone would have tainted LBJ, albeit unjustifiably.  The Texas connections become so byzantine they're hard to follow.  By making this connection to Mo Dean's former boyfriend, the Dallas to Watergate connection is further established.  And then there's deMorenschildt, who was related to Jackie Kennedy, and had his own Washington connections, stopping over there on his way to Haiti in April, 1963.

Tim

Tim, I didn't have time to summarize the entire chapter in the Scott book. But it talks about how people associated with the Great Southwest Corp were helping Marina connect Oswald to the Mannlicher-Carcano rifle (with links Scott characterizes as "highly questionable"); how Attorney McKenzie helped coach Marina for her WC testimony, etc. If time permits I may post more from the book about the Great Southwest Corp, but I highly recommend "Deep Politics" to every member of this Forum. I think it is a must read for any assassination researcher.

I must add one comment from the book (relating to Watergate not the JFK assassination). In commenting on the "Silent Coup" thesis that Watergate was motivated by Dean's desire to protect his wife who had been the room-mate of the call girl "madam" Heidi Rikan, Scott states:

"Silent Coup" does not consider the possibility that Dean and "Mo" Biner

had been compromised, by a hostile force, in order to gain leverage over

Dean, possibly to get his compiance in the matter of Hoffa's pardon in 1971.

Scott notes that Rikan was friends with Joe Nesline, the top organized crime representative in Washington.

Mo, by the way, had been introduced to Heidi Rykan by a close friend of Bedford Wynne.

Edited by Tim Gratz

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    "Silent Coup" does not consider the possibility that Dean and "Mo" Biner   

      had been compromised, by a hostile force, in order to gain leverage over   

      Dean, possibly to get his compiance in the matter of Hoffa's pardon in 1971.

Scott notes that Rikan was friends with Joe Nesline, the top organized crime representative in Washington.

Mo, by the way, had been introduced to Heidi Rykan by a close friend of Bedford Wynne.

Hoffa's connections should never be overlooked in any of the Watergate stuff.

Tim Carroll

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Apparently there were alot of meetings that morning, as we know that Bobby had just gotten home for lunch from a meeting with the Organized Crime Task Force when the news came from Hoover.  The description of the FIAB meeting is "quite extraordinary."  This is worthy of further research.  I'm not familiar with the publication, The Fourth Decade, which you cite.  And what year was the Evans article published?

Within hours of JFK being assassinated RFK, John McCone, director of the CIA, visited RFK at his home. We now know that during this meeting RFK asked McCone if the CIA killed JFK. When McCone left RFK phoned Haynes Johnson and asked him if Brigade 2506 had killed JFK. Is that what McCone told him? Both groups said no. Did RFK believe both groups?

Johnson was the author of the The Bay of Pigs: The Leaders’ Story of Brigade 2506 (1964). The book was written by Johnson with the help of Manuel Artime, Jose Perez San Roman, Erneido Oliva and Enrique Ruiz-Williams.

The book discusses the Bay of Pigs disaster in great detail. They agree that JFK made mistakes but their hostility is directed towards two groups: the CIA and right-wing political forces in America. It is these two groups they accuse of betrayal. They are full of praise for JFK and RFK for trying to get their comrades released from Castro’s prisons. They compare this to the CIA and the right-wing who provide no help over this issue. In fact, they suggest rightly, that these prisoners were used in the propaganda war against Castro. They claim it was in their political interests for the anti-Castro Cubans to remain in prison.

It has to be remembered that the leaders of Brigade 2506 were left of centre politicians. They had been opponents of Batista. Some had fought alongside Castro in the revolution. They had become disillusioned by Castro’s decision to move towards a Soviet type of government. Although the CIA worked with this group, their political sympathies were with the pro-Batista faction. It was this faction that is really linked with the assassination of JFK.

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I don't think Hoffa disliked Nixon that much to be involved with Watergate? He refused to do Nixon's wish to take over where Kissinger couldn't do. Hoffa wouldn't go to VietNam for any form of peace talks. Also, Nixon got him out of prison just to do that. Still that isn't enough to put Hoffa involved.

Seems to me this is a Seal operation just like I was told and it's roots go a way that shows up today.

When Bush threatened Mayor Street of taking down the Vet's Stadium it was a threat on Street's political career if he were to do this. Mayor Street stood his ground. Now, there is something behind that?

I hope one day we will know more answers.

Most of us read books put an ad live in and I am no exception to that rule. WE Just don't know. We take hear say and add it with maybe so called facts and then try to figure out what happened. I am not any better then anyone on that or less than anyone on that. We all do it.

However, this one on Hoffa I wish would come to light along with Nixon and Watergate.

JFK to much of a puzzle. To many hidden facts to add up any good possible who did it for real.

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Within hours of  JFK being assassinated RFK, John McCone, director of the CIA, visited RFK at his home. We now know that during this meeting RFK asked McCone if the CIA killed JFK. When McCone left RFK phoned Haynes Johnson and asked him if Brigade 2506 had killed JFK. Is that what McCone told him? Both groups said no. Did RFK believe both groups?

Johnson was the author of the The Bay of Pigs: The Leaders’ Story of Brigade 2506 (1964). The book was written by Johnson with the help of Manuel Artime, Jose Perez San Roman, Erneido Oliva and Enrique Ruiz-Williams.

The day after his brother's murder, Bobby Kennedy sought answers from Harry Ruiz-Williams, a CIA agent staying at a CIA-operated safe house used by Cuban exiles. Afterward, speaking with journalist Haynes Johnson, Bobby said that he "suspected CIA-backed anti-Castro forces of having been involved in his brother's death." He was later quoted as telling one of the investigators from his Senate committee days: "Those Cuban cunts are all working for the mob. They blame us for the Bay of Pigs, and they're trying to make this look like a Castro-Communist hit. I don't buy it. And I don't trust those guys at the CIA. They're worse than the Mafia."[1]

Notes

1. David C. Heymann, RFK. New York: Penguin Putnam Inc., 1998), 10.

Edited by Tim Carroll

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Castro's former mistress-turned-CIA agent, Marita Lorenz, testified of her direct knowledge of Hunt's participation, as well as that of other anti-Castro Cubans, in the events in Dallas leading up to November 22, 1963. She claimed to have been in a two car caravan with Frank Sturgis, Orlando Bosch and others traveling from Miami carrying numerous weapons. Upon their arrival in Dallas they were met at their motel on November 21st by their old paymaster, "Eduardo." An hour after Hunt delivered the money and departed, another character out of history arrived: Jack Ruby.

In that trial, an amazing exchange took place after Hunt testified that, "like thousands of other Americans, millions," he, his wife and children had huddled together at home that fateful weekend, "and watched the burial services."[20] Yet, despite providing his own children as alibis, he had also asserted his legal damages to be the doubts in their minds about their own father's activities. The question was asked:

"Mr. Hunt, why did you have to convince your children that you were not in Dallas, Texas on November 22, 1963, if, in fact, as you say, a fourteen-year-old daughter, a thirteen-year-old daughter, and a ten-year-old son were with you in the Washington, D.C. area on November 22, 1963, and were with you at least for the next forty-eight hours, as you all stayed glued to the T.V. set?" After a long pause, Hunt lamely asserted that. "it was less a question of my convincing them that I was in Washington, D.C. with them-rather, reminding them that I was-than it was to assure them that none of the charges...had any substance to them at all." The magazine's attorney followed up with: "What I want to know is since they knew how outrageous the lies were, why did they have to be convinced by you that you weren't in Texas?" Hunt simply replied: "Reminded, reminded."

In his 2002 edition of his book, The Kennedy Conspiracy, Anthony Summers includes an interesting story that could link Howard Hunt to Lee Harvey Oswald (page 465).

In 1975 a person living in Mexico City sent researchers a copy of a letter purportedly written by Oswald. It is dated 8th November, 1963:

Dear Mr. Hunt,

I would like information concerding (sic) my position. I am asking only for information. I am asking that we discuss the matter fully before any steps are taken by me or anyone else.

Thank you,

Lee Harvey Oswald

Three handwriting experts in 1977 concluded that the letter was written by Oswald. It was also discovered that the misspelling of “concerning” mirrors an identical error in a letter Oswald wrote in 1961.

The House Select Committee on Assassinations expressed doubts about the letter. They pointed out that even if it was written by Oswald, it is not known who the letter was sent to. There are two possibilities: H. L. Hunt and Howard Hunt.

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