Sylvia Odio, Lee Harvey Oswald and Harry Dean

[Paul Trejo]

Combining Jeff Caufield's recent Walker-did-it CT (2015) with the testimony of Harry Dean and Sylvia Odio, I find many points in common.

Harry Dean is certain that his friends in the Radical Right in Southern California in 1963 were connected with Lee Harvey Oswald (LHO) through General Edwin Walker.  Although Harry Dean himself never met LHO, he did know two Hispanic Americans, Loran Hall and Larry Howard, who used the war names, "Lorenzo and Alonzo." 

Harry Dean claims that he helped Loran Hall and Larry Howard load a trailer with military supplies for mercenaries planning to shell Cuba in Right-wing raids.  They collected funds and supplies from John Birch Society supporters in Southern California, and stored them in the garage of war-hero Gabby Gabaldon.  Gabaldon was also Harry Dean's personal friend, and a heroic figure to Loran and Larry.  Some of these supplies might go to Interpen, to La Sambra, to Lake Pontchartrain, or to Cuba raid camps in Miami. 

In any case, Harry Dean's memoirs say that one day in mid-September, Gabby Gabaldon received a large cash donation from California Congressman John Rousselot, and he gave part of this to Loran and Larry.  After their trailer was loaded, Gabaldon gave Loran and Larry instructions to park the trailer somewhere, and pick up LHO in New Orleans, and drive LHO to Mexico City by going through Dallas, by September 26, 1963.  

According to Harry Dean, on their way to Mexico City, for some reason Loran, Larry and LHO decided to stop and visit Sylvia Odio.  Sylvia thought the two Hispanic men were Cuban, and she remembered their war names as "Leopoldo and Angelo", though she also admitted that her memory was vague about their names.  But she did remember that they introduced the American as Leon Oswald.  This is what Sylvia Odio told the Warren Commission.

Sylvia said of the two Hispanic men, one was taller (Lorenzo), looked Cuban, and did most of the talking in Spanish.  The other was heavier and more hairy (Alonzo) and looked more Mexican than Cuban.  In fact, Larry Howard was a heavy, hairy Mexican American from Southern California.  Loran Hall was a slimmer, taller, Cuban-American from Kansas.

So, Harry Dean is certain that Loran Hall and Larry Howard were with Lee Harvey Oswald at Sylvia Odio's door, on or about September 25, 1963.

What was their business at her door?  Sylvia told the Warren Commission -- and in December 1963 had told James Hosty -- that their purpose seemed to be based on a mistaken information that she, Sylvia, had the ability to recommend that JURE (the anti-Castro group of which she was a member) accept new members.  So they tried for a long time to persuade her that "Leon Oswald" would be perfect to help JURE with their goals to overthrow Fidel Castro.

Sylvia didn't have that power, and she didn't trust these guys, but she did hear them out for about 20 minutes on her front porch of her apartment before she sent them away empty-handed.  She also wrote to her father in a Cuban jail cell to tell him about their visit.  We have her father's reply (which the Cuban government permitted to be mailed 10 weeks later).

In any case, the next day, after work, Leopoldo called Sylvia Odio on the telephone, and again tried to persuade her to accept Leon Oswald into JURE.  Leopoldo tried two tactics: the direct tactic, and when that didn't work, a negative tactic, i.e. he said that Leon told him that Cubans didn't have any guts; that they should have shot JFK after the Bay of Pigs, because it was JFK who was holding back the freedom of Cuba.  Then Leopoldo said that Leon was "kind of loco" and was a Marine sharpshooter who said it would be easy to kill that SOB.

Sylvia Odio knew very well that JURE wanted to topple Fidel Castro from power -- but she also knew that being a member of an organization like JURE meant being very careful not to allow anybody to infiltrate the organization, even if they have a good story.  Sylvia was disturbed by this telephone call, and just hung up.  She told her priest and her psychiatrist about it, and later told the FBI and the Warren Commission.

Now -- how does all this fit in with Jeff Caufield's recent Walker-did-it CT -- that's the question. 

It seems to me that Harry Dean, like Jeff Caufield, is portraying LHO among the Radical Right in politics, in which his Leftist Persona was just a cover.  This corresponds with the Hardway-Lopez Report (2003) which reveals FOIA documents from the CIA that portray LHO with a Fake FPCC resume in Mexico City, trying to get easy access into Cuba -- which failed to impress the Cuban Consulate and USSR Embassy staff.

What was LHO doing in Mexico City?   According to the Consulate staff, LHO was trying to sneak into Cuba, disguised as an FPCC officer.  It is likely, IMHO, that LHO planned (in cooperation with Guy Banister and Ed Butler) to meet an Anti-Castro team in Cuba, and join their efforts.

If this is true then we can also explain why Loran, Larry and LHO stopped by to visit Sylvia Odio on September 25, 1963 -- namely -- to have an alternate plan in case the Fake FPCC resume plan did not work in Mexico City.   If Sylvia Odio could have introduced LHO to JURE, then they might have hustled LHO into Cuba in their own ways.

This also corresponds to Marina Oswald's (and Ron Lewis') claim that LHO talked about hijacking an airplane to Cuba in early September 1963, and sat in his kitchen and cried.  It seems that LHO was under tremendous pressure to get into Cuba.  Very likely LHO was offered a lot of money for this mission, and he had no job, and his young wife was pregnant with their second baby, and LHO was desperate.  LHO was probably also promised that if he was successful in his Cuba mission, he would get a full-time job with the CIA or the equivalent.

The pressure was on.  Yet at the same time, the danger was high.  Richard Case Nagell, a CIA-KGB double-agent, warned LHO that if he succeeded in getting into Cuba, Nagel would have to shoot LHO dead.  The pressure was on. 

In conclusion: I accept Jeff Caufield's Walker-did-it CT which portrays extensive new evidence of a Radical Right conspiracy in the JFK assassination, and I accept his portrait of LHO as a double-agent wannabe, who would do anything to infiltrate Cuba and assassinate Fidel Castro.  The Fake FPCC in New Orleans had no other purpose.  

It is no coincidence that this correct solution to the JFK mystery also confirms the eye-witness accounts from both Harry Dean and Sylvia Odio.

Regards,
--Paul Trejo 

Edited November 28, 2016 by Paul Trejo
grammar

[Glenn Nall]

45 minutes ago, Paul Trejo said:

Combining Jeff Caufield's recent Walker-did-it CT (2015) with the testimony of Harry Dean and Sylvia Odio, I find many points in common.

Harry Dean is certain that his friends in the Radical Right in Southern California in 1963 were connected with Lee Harvey Oswald (LHO) through General Edwin Walker.  Although Harry Dean himself never met LHO, he did know two Hispanic Americans, Loran Hall and Larry Howard, who used the war names, "Lorenzo and Alonzo." 

Harry Dean claims that he helped Loran Hall and Larry Howard load a trailer with military supplies for mercenaries planning to shell Cuba in Right-wing raids.  They collected funds and supplies from John Birch Society supporters in Southern California, and stored them in the garage of war-hero Gabby Gabaldon.  Gabaldon was also Harry Dean's personal friend, and a heroic figure to Loran and Larry.  Some of these supplies might go to Interpen, to La Sambra, to Lake Pontchartrain, or to Cuba raid camps in Miami. 

In any case, Harry Dean's memoirs say that one day in mid-September, Gabby Gabaldon received a large cash donation from California Congressman John Rousselot, and he gave part of this to Loran and Larry.  After their trailer was loaded, Gabaldon gave Loran and Larry instructions to park the trailer somewhere, and pick up LHO in New Orleans, and drive LHO to Mexico City by going through Dallas, by September 26, 1963.  

According to Harry Dean, on their way to Mexico City, for some reason Loran, Larry and LHO decided to stop and visit Sylvia Odio.  Sylvia thought the two Hispanic men were Cuban, and she remembered their war names as "Leopoldo and Angelo", though she also admitted that her memory was vague about their names.  But she did remember that they introduced the American as Leon Oswald.  This is what Sylvia Odio told the Warren Commission.

Sylvia said of the two Hispanic men, one was taller (Lorenzo), looked Cuban, and did most of the talking in Spanish.  The other was heavier and more hairy (Alonzo) and looked more Mexican than Cuban.  In fact, Larry Howard was a heavy, hairy Mexican American from Southern California.  Loran Hall was a slimmer, taller, Cuban-American from Kansas.

So, Harry Dean is certain that Loran Hall and Larry Howard were with Lee Harvey Oswald at Sylvia Odio's door, on or about September 25, 1963.

What was their business at her door?  Sylvia told the Warren Commission -- and in December 1963 had told James Hosty -- that their purpose seemed to be based on a mistaken information that she, Sylvia, had the ability to recommend that JURE (the anti-Castro group of which she was a member) accept new members.  So they tried for a long time to persuade her that "Leon Oswald" would be perfect to help JURE with their goals to overthrow Fidel Castro.

Sylvia didn't have that power, and she didn't trust these guys, but she did hear them out for about 20 minutes on her front porch of her apartment before she sent them away empty-handed.  She also wrote to her father in a Cuban jail cell to tell him about their visit.  We have her father's reply (which the Cuban government permitted to be mailed 10 weeks later).

In any case, the next day, after work, Leopoldo called Sylvia Odio on the telephone, and again tried to persuade her to accept Leon Oswald into JURE.  Leopoldo tried two tactics: the direct tactic, and when that didn't work, a negative tactic, i.e. he said that Leon told him that Cubans didn't have any guts; that they should have shot JFK after the Bay of Pigs, because it was JFK who was holding back the freedom of Cuba.  Then Leopoldo said that Leon was "kind of loco" and was a Marine sharpshooter who said it would be easy to kill that SOB.

Sylvia Odio knew very well that JURE wanted to topple Fidel Castro from power -- but she also knew that being a member of an organization like JURE meant being very careful not to allow anybody to infiltrate the organization, even if they have a good story.  Sylvia was disturbed by this telephone call, and just hung up.  She told her priest and her psychiatrist about it, and later told the FBI and the Warren Commission.

Now -- how does all this fit in with Jeff Caufield's recent Walker-did-it CT -- that's the question. 

It seems to me that Harry Dean, like Jeff Caufield, is portraying LHO among the Radical Right in politics, in which his Leftist Persona was just a cover.  This corresponds with the Hardway-Lopez Report (2003) which reveals FOIA documents from the CIA that portray LHO with a Fake FPCC resume in Mexico City, trying to get easy access into Cuba -- which failed to impress the Cuban Consulate and USSR Embassy staff.

What was LHO doing in Mexico City?   According to the Consulate staff, LHO was trying to sneak into Cuba, disguised as an FPCC officer.  It is likely, IMHO, that LHO planned (in cooperation with Guy Banister and Ed Butler) to meet an Anti-Castro team in Cuba, and join their efforts.

If this is true then we can also explain why Loran, Larry and LHO stopped by to visit Sylvia Odio on September 25, 1963 -- namely -- to have an alternate plan in case the Fake FPCC resume plan did not work in Mexico City.   If Sylvia Odio could have introduced LHO to JURE, then they might have hustled LHO into Cuba in their own ways.

This also corresponds to Marina Oswald's (and Ron Lewis') claim that LHO talked about hijacking an airplane to Cuba in early September 1963, and sat in his kitchen and cried.  It seems that LHO was under tremendous pressure to get into Cuba.  Very likely LHO was offered a lot of money for this mission, and he had no job, and his young wife was pregnant with their second baby, and LHO was desperate.  LHO was probably also promised that if he was successful in his Cuba mission, he would get a full-time job with the CIA or the equivalent.

The pressure was on.  Yet at the same time, the danger was high.  Richard Case Nagell, a CIA-KGB double-agent, warned LHO that if he succeeded in getting into Cuba, Nagel would have to shoot LHO dead.  The pressure was on. 

In conclusion: I accept Jeff Caufield's Walker-did-it CT which portrays extensive new evidence of a Radical Right conspiracy in the JFK assassination, and I accept his portrait of LHO as a double-agent wannabe, who would do anything to infiltrate Cuba and assassinate Fidel Castro.  The Fake FPCC in New Orleans had no other purpose.  

It is no coincidence that this correct solution to the JFK mystery also confirms the eye-witness accounts from both Harry Dean and Sylvia Odio.

Regards,
--Paul Trejo 

"What was their business at her door?  Sylvia told the Warren Commission -- and in December 1963 had told James Hosty -- that their purpose seemed to be based on a mistaken information that she, Sylvia, had the ability to recommend that JURE (the anti-Castro group of which she was a member) accept new members.  So they tried for a long time to persuade her that "Leon Oswald" would be perfect to help JURE with their goals to overthrow Fidel Castro."

Thanks for this, Paul. To think how much time and how many lives would have been saved had they all known that Fidel Castro would be in 53 years dead anyway. Damn.

(seriously - good stuff from Harry Dean.)

 

 

[Glenn Nall]

52 minutes ago, Paul Trejo said:

Combining Jeff Caufield's recent Walker-did-it CT (2015) with the testimony of Harry Dean and Sylvia Odio, I find many points in common.

Harry Dean is certain that his friends in the Radical Right in Southern California in 1963 were connected with Lee Harvey Oswald (LHO) through General Edwin Walker.  Although Harry Dean himself never met LHO, he did know two Hispanic Americans, Loran Hall and Larry Howard, who used the war names, "Lorenzo and Alonzo." 

Harry Dean claims that he helped Loran Hall and Larry Howard load a trailer with military supplies for mercenaries planning to shell Cuba in Right-wing raids.  They collected funds and supplies from John Birch Society supporters in Southern California, and stored them in the garage of war-hero Gabby Gabaldon.  Gabaldon was also Harry Dean's personal friend, and a heroic figure to Loran and Larry.  Some of these supplies might go to Interpen, to La Sambra, to Lake Pontchartrain, or to Cuba raid camps in Miami. 

In any case, Harry Dean's memoirs say that one day in mid-September, Gabby Gabaldon received a large cash donation from California Congressman John Rousselot, and he gave part of this to Loran and Larry.  After their trailer was loaded, Gabaldon gave Loran and Larry instructions to park the trailer somewhere, and pick up LHO in New Orleans, and drive LHO to Mexico City by going through Dallas, by September 26, 1963.  

According to Harry Dean, on their way to Mexico City, for some reason Loran, Larry and LHO decided to stop and visit Sylvia Odio.  Sylvia thought the two Hispanic men were Cuban, and she remembered their war names as "Leopoldo and Angelo", though she also admitted that her memory was vague about their names.  But she did remember that they introduced the American as Leon Oswald.  This is what Sylvia Odio told the Warren Commission.

Sylvia said of the two Hispanic men, one was taller (Lorenzo), looked Cuban, and did most of the talking in Spanish.  The other was heavier and more hairy (Alonzo) and looked more Mexican than Cuban.  In fact, Larry Howard was a heavy, hairy Mexican American from Southern California.  Loran Hall was a slimmer, taller, Cuban-American from Kansas.

So, Harry Dean is certain that Loran Hall and Larry Howard were with Lee Harvey Oswald at Sylvia Odio's door, on or about September 25, 1963.

What was their business at her door?  Sylvia told the Warren Commission -- and in December 1963 had told James Hosty -- that their purpose seemed to be based on a mistaken information that she, Sylvia, had the ability to recommend that JURE (the anti-Castro group of which she was a member) accept new members.  So they tried for a long time to persuade her that "Leon Oswald" would be perfect to help JURE with their goals to overthrow Fidel Castro.

Sylvia didn't have that power, and she didn't trust these guys, but she did hear them out for about 20 minutes on her front porch of her apartment before she sent them away empty-handed.  She also wrote to her father in a Cuban jail cell to tell him about their visit.  We have her father's reply (which the Cuban government permitted to be mailed 10 weeks later).

In any case, the next day, after work, Leopoldo called Sylvia Odio on the telephone, and again tried to persuade her to accept Leon Oswald into JURE.  Leopoldo tried two tactics: the direct tactic, and when that didn't work, a negative tactic, i.e. he said that Leon told him that Cubans didn't have any guts; that they should have shot JFK after the Bay of Pigs, because it was JFK who was holding back the freedom of Cuba.  Then Leopoldo said that Leon was "kind of loco" and was a Marine sharpshooter who said it would be easy to kill that SOB.

Sylvia Odio knew very well that JURE wanted to topple Fidel Castro from power -- but she also knew that being a member of an organization like JURE meant being very careful not to allow anybody to infiltrate the organization, even if they have a good story.  Sylvia was disturbed by this telephone call, and just hung up.  She told her priest and her psychiatrist about it, and later told the FBI and the Warren Commission.

Now -- how does all this fit in with Jeff Caufield's recent Walker-did-it CT -- that's the question. 

It seems to me that Harry Dean, like Jeff Caufield, is portraying LHO among the Radical Right in politics, in which his Leftist Persona was just a cover.  This corresponds with the Hardway-Lopez Report (2003) which reveals FOIA documents from the CIA that portray LHO with a Fake FPCC resume in Mexico City, trying to get easy access into Cuba -- which failed to impress the Cuban Consulate and USSR Embassy staff.

What was LHO doing in Mexico City?   According to the Consulate staff, LHO was trying to sneak into Cuba, disguised as an FPCC officer.  It is likely, IMHO, that LHO planned (in cooperation with Guy Banister and Ed Butler) to meet an Anti-Castro team in Cuba, and join their efforts.

If this is true then we can also explain why Loran, Larry and LHO stopped by to visit Sylvia Odio on September 25, 1963 -- namely -- to have an alternate plan in case the Fake FPCC resume plan did not work in Mexico City.   If Sylvia Odio could have introduced LHO to JURE, then they might have hustled LHO into Cuba in their own ways.

This also corresponds to Marina Oswald's (and Ron Lewis') claim that LHO talked about hijacking an airplane to Cuba in early September 1963, and sat in his kitchen and cried.  It seems that LHO was under tremendous pressure to get into Cuba.  Very likely LHO was offered a lot of money for this mission, and he had no job, and his young wife was pregnant with their second baby, and LHO was desperate.  LHO was probably also promised that if he was successful in his Cuba mission, he would get a full-time job with the CIA or the equivalent.

The pressure was on.  Yet at the same time, the danger was high.  Richard Case Nagell, a CIA-KGB double-agent, warned LHO that if he succeeded in getting into Cuba, Nagel would have to shoot LHO dead.  The pressure was on. 

In conclusion: I accept Jeff Caufield's Walker-did-it CT which portrays extensive new evidence of a Radical Right conspiracy in the JFK assassination, and I accept his portrait of LHO as a double-agent wannabe, who would do anything to infiltrate Cuba and assassinate Fidel Castro.  The Fake FPCC in New Orleans had no other purpose.  

It is no coincidence that this correct solution to the JFK mystery also confirms the eye-witness accounts from both Harry Dean and Sylvia Odio.

Regards,
--Paul Trejo 

 

also, did you write all that in your own words...? just curious...

[Paul Trejo]

20 hours ago, Glenn Nall said:

(seriously - good stuff from Harry Dean.)

also, did you write all that in your own words...? just curious...

Glenn,

Thanks for the comment.  Yes, this is all in my own words.  I was re-reading Sylvia Odio's WC testimony (for a new college paper I'm writing for US History) and it occurred to me that Sylvia Odio's account dovetails with Harry Dean's account in a perfect match.

Regards,
--Paul Trejo

Edited November 29, 2016 by Paul Trejo

[Steve Thomas]

8 minutes ago, Paul Trejo said:

Glenn,

Thanks for the comment.  Yes, this is all in my own words.  I was re-reading Sylvia Odio's WC testimony (for a new paper I'm writing for professor HW Brands) and it occurred to me that Sylvia Odio's account dovetails with Harry Dean's account in a perfect match.

Regards,
--Paul Trejo

Paul,

 

In her WC testimony, Sylvia says several times that when the two men came to visit her, she was in the process of moving from the Crestwood Apartments to Oak Cliff.

 

Do you know where in Oak Cliff she was moving. I don't think it indicates that in her testimony.

 

Steve Thomas

[Paul Trejo]

5 hours ago, Steve Thomas said:

Paul,

In her WC testimony, Sylvia says several times that when the two men came to visit her, she was in the process of moving from the Crestwood Apartments to Oak Cliff.

Do you know where in Oak Cliff she was moving. I don't think it indicates that in her testimony.

Steve Thomas

Steve,

You're right that Sylvia Odio never gives her Oak Cliff address, and the WC attorneys never ask her.

It could be interesting because LHO himself moved to Oak Cliff in Dallas in just a couple weeks -- in early October, 1963.

I myself don't think that LHO tried to link up with Sylvia Odio after that pre-Mexico visit.  IMHO that visit was entirely Loran Hall's idea.  Loran Hall was close to a lot of Cuban refugees and mercenaries there at Lake Pontchartrain, including some of the residents of the Crestwood Apartments, namely, Kiki and Rolando Masferrer. 

The following seems more likely:

(1) LHO complained to Loran Hall and Larry Howard as they were driving to Mexico City, that he didn't think that the Fake FPCC credentials that Guy Banister and Ed Butler had designed for him would work, and that he would fail to get into Cuba that way.

(2) Loran Hall called his friends in the Cuban refugee community, and they told Loran a lot of background data on Sylvia Odio (which they knew from the old Cuba days), who was right there in Dallas.

(3) Loran Hall dreamed up this alternate plan to get LHO into Cuba; namely, get Sylvia Odio to vouch for LHO as a new member of JURE, and let them sneak LHO into Cuba;

(4) Loran's plan failed, as Sylvia Odio turned them down.

(5) LHO had never met Sylvia Odio before in his life.  She had never met LHO before in her life.  They had no further business together.

(6) In Mexico City, LHO failed utterly to get into Cuba as a Fake FPCC officer.  At that point, LHO had to start worrying about his wife who was about 9 months pregnant, and about a steady job in Dallas.

(7) Nor do I see any link between the fact that Sylvia Odio's workplace was in Irving, and Ruth Paine lived in Irving.  It was an ordinary commute.

Why didn't the WC attorneys ask Sylvia Odio for her address in Oak Cliff when they always asked witnesses for their current address?  IMHO it was because the FBI failed to give Sylvia Odio protection against Loran Hall and Larry Howard, and she was afraid, so she probably asked the WC to refrain from publicizing her home address.  (I know I would have.)

Regards,
--Paul Trejo

Edited November 29, 2016 by Paul Trejo

[Steve Thomas]

15 hours ago, Paul Trejo said:

Steve,

You're right that Sylvia Odio never gives her Oak Cliff address, and the WC attorneys never ask her.

It could be interesting because LHO himself moved to Oak Cliff in Dallas in just a couple weeks -- in early October, 1963.

Loran Hall was close to a lot of Cuban refugees and mercenaries there at Lake Pontchartrain, including some of the residents of the Crestwood Apartments, namely, Kiki and Rolando Masferrer. 

The following seems more likely:

(2) Loran Hall called his friends in the Cuban refugee community, and they told Loran a lot of background data on Sylvia Odio (which they knew from the old Cuba days), who was right there in Dallas.

Why didn't the WC attorneys ask Sylvia Odio for her address in Oak Cliff when they always asked witnesses for their current address?

--Paul Trejo

Paul,

 

I've noted that Oswald went from the YMCA in downtown Dallas to the north part of Oak Cliff twice. Once in late October, 1962 when he "disappears" between October 19th to November 3rd. Gary Taylor went looking for Oswald on the north side of Beckley in Oak Cliff. The second time on his "return" from Mexico City in October of 1963.

 

In her WC testimony, Bertha Cheek said that she owned a 32 unit apartment complex in Oak Cliff, but she didn't identify where that was. Any connection?

 

I was just wondering if Syvia Odio was involved in more than just "translating a letter". These three guys had to travel from New Orleans to Dallas to get a letter translated? I don't think so.

 

"Mrs. ODIO. Well, I had been having little groups of Cubans coming to my house who have been asking me to help them in JURE. They were going to open a revolutionary paper here in Dallas. And I told them at the time I was very busy with my four children, and I would help, in other things like selling bonus to help buy arms for Cuba. And I said I would help as much as I could."

 

"This man, the other one, the second Cuban, took out a letter written in Spanish, and the content was something like we represent the revolutionary counsel, and we are making a big movement to buy arms for Cuba and to help overthrow the dictator Castro, and we want you to translate this letter and write it in English and send a whole lot of them to different industries to see if we can get some results."

 

"my children at the time were in Puerto Rico, I and I went down to get them in Puerto Rico June 29th.
That was exactly the day that I saw Ray again. We had been trying to establish a contact in Dallas with Mr. Johnny Martin, who is from Uruguay. He is from there, and he had heard that I was involved in this movement. And he said that he had a lot of contacts in Latin America to buy arms, particularly in Brazil, and that if he were in contact with one of our chief leaders of the underground, he would be able to sell him second-hand arms that we could use in our revolution."

 

Steve Thomas

[Mark Knight]

JURE, the Junta Revolucionaria Cubana, was an anti-Castro organization.

How would LHO figure to get into Cuba by portraying himself as a member of an ANTI-CASTRO group, at the Mexico City embassy of Castro's Cuban government?

 If anything, JURE membership would likely get Oswald turned down for a visa so fast it would make him dizzy.  So you're saying that a fake JURE membership would get Oswald SMUGGLED into Cuba?  I daresay he could likely do that on his own, without resorting to joining what, if discovered by Castro's forces, would be incriminating political connections.

Your argument fails the logic test, Mr. Trejo. 

[Glenn Nall]

16 minutes ago, Mark Knight said:

JURE, the Junta Revolucionaria Cubana, was an anti-Castro organization.

How would LHO figure to get into Cuba by portraying himself as a member of an ANTI-CASTRO group, at the Mexico City embassy of Castro's Cuban government?

 If anything, JURE membership would likely get Oswald turned down for a visa so fast it would make him dizzy.  So you're saying that a fake JURE membership would get Oswald SMUGGLED into Cuba?  I daresay he could likely do that on his own, without resorting to joining what, if discovered by Castro's forces, would be incriminating political connections.

Your argument fails the logic test, Mr. Trejo. 

details, Mr Knight. mere details...

Edited November 30, 2016 by Glenn Nall

[Paul Trejo]

3 hours ago, Mark Knight said:

JURE, the Junta Revolucionaria Cubana, was an anti-Castro organization.

How would LHO figure to get into Cuba by portraying himself as a member of an ANTI-CASTRO group, at the Mexico City embassy of Castro's Cuban government?

 If anything, JURE membership would likely get Oswald turned down for a visa so fast it would make him dizzy.  So you're saying that a fake JURE membership would get Oswald SMUGGLED into Cuba?  I daresay he could likely do that on his own, without resorting to joining what, if discovered by Castro's forces, would be incriminating political connections.

Your argument fails the logic test, Mr. Trejo. 

Mark,

Your logic is dualistic -- either they were with Castro or against Castro -- and no middle term.

The logic I use is dialectical -- it recognizes nuances.  For example, there were fakes and phonies everywhere in the post-Castro Cuba Revolution.  There were pro-Castro Cubans who were pretending to be anti-Castro, and there were anti-Castro Cuband who were pretending to be pro-Castro. 

The WC testimony of Carlos Bringuier highlights this historical fact.

There can be little doubt that JURE had secret members inside Cuba, who were working for Castro's downfall.  This was true of all of the anti-Castro groups -- they had moles everywhere -- in Miami, in the training camps, and inside Cuba.

The alternative that I perceive for JURE had nothing to do with Mexico City, but with a secret voyage to Cuba -- perhaps on a Raid vessel like those used by Gerry Patrick Hemming and his Interpen group, or described by Johnny Martino.  These Cuba raid vessels would sneak onto the Cuban shores and attack farmers and burn crops and so on.  Some of them could drop off snipers, or moles, or anything they wanted -- AS LONG AS THERE WAS A RECEIVING PARTY.  In this scenario, JURE moles inside Cuba could receive LHO from a Raid vessel.  That was Loran Hall's specialty.

So, Mark, my argument retains a very strong logical component.

Regards,
--Paul Trejo 

Edited November 30, 2016 by Paul Trejo

[Paul Trejo]

4 hours ago, Steve Thomas said:

Paul,

I've noted that Oswald went from the YMCA in downtown Dallas to the north part of Oak Cliff twice. Once in late October, 1962 when he "disappears" between October 19th to November 3rd. Gary Taylor went looking for Oswald on the north side of Beckley in Oak Cliff. The second time on his "return" from Mexico City in October of 1963.

In her WC testimony, Bertha Cheek said that she owned a 32 unit apartment complex in Oak Cliff, but she didn't identify where that was. Any connection?

I was just wondering if Syvia Odio was involved in more than just "translating a letter". These three guys had to travel from New Orleans to Dallas to get a letter translated? I don't think so.

"Mrs. ODIO. Well, I had been having little groups of Cubans coming to my house who have been asking me to help them in JURE. They were going to open a revolutionary paper here in Dallas. And I told them at the time I was very busy with my four children, and I would help, in other things like selling bonus to help buy arms for Cuba. And I said I would help as much as I could."

"This man, the other one, the second Cuban, took out a letter written in Spanish, and the content was something like we represent the revolutionary counsel, and we are making a big movement to buy arms for Cuba and to help overthrow the dictator Castro, and we want you to translate this letter and write it in English and send a whole lot of them to different industries to see if we can get some results..."

Steve Thomas

Steve,

The answer, IMHO, is to take Sylvia Odio at her word.  This is what many CTers refuse to do.  She said she never saw these guys before, and she doubted that they were really JURE members.  They didn't act like it, but it was confusing, because they knew many facts about her father in the Cuban jail cell.  So, she didn't dismiss them immediately.  She let them talk.

The letter that "Angelo" had was in Spanish, but Loran Hall and Larry Howard weren't the literary type.  They probably got that letter from Kiki Masferrer (who was also anti-Castro, but in competition with JURE, because his group thought JURE was too leftist).  Kiki didn't write that letter, either, but he probably got it from one of the more innocent JURE people. 

It was a JURE fund-raising letter, and Sylvia said she recognized the letter.  That's why she asked "Angelo" if he was sent by "Eugenio".  "Angelo" said, no, and then Sylvia asked "Angelo" if he even knew "Eugenio," and "Angelo" said, no.  That's when Sylvia knew they weren't legitimate JURE people, because everybody in JURE knew "Eugenio."  Everybody.

These were not friends of her father's, and they were not friends of JURE.  If Loran Hall's charade would have worked, Sylvia might have introduced LHO to people in JURE.  But as it turned out, Sylvia sent them away empty-handed, wrote to her father about the incident.   Loran Hall had struck out.

Sylvia Odio had no further contact with "Leon" Oswald until she saw his face on TV as the accused assassin of JFK.

Regards,
--Paul Trejo

Edited November 30, 2016 by Paul Trejo

[Mark Knight]

I still don't see it.  IF the folks of JURE managed to get Oswald into Cuba, how is this yanqui'  who speaks English and Russian, but LITTLE TO NO SPANISH, going to keep from drawing attention to himself in Cuba?  I'm trying to connect the dots, and they just aren't there.

[Glenn Nall]

3 minutes ago, Mark Knight said:

I still don't see it.  IF the folks of JURE managed to get Oswald into Cuba, how is this yanqui'  who speaks English and Russian, but LITTLE TO NO SPANISH, going to keep from drawing attention to himself in Cuba?  I'm trying to connect the dots, and they just aren't there.

ah, dots, schmotz, Mark. what's a few details like 'stick out like a sore thumb' among excessively skilled international spies...?

[Glenn Nall]

44 minutes ago, Paul Trejo said:

Mark,

Your logic is dualistic -- either they were with Castro or against Castro -- and no middle term.

The logic I use is dialectical -- it recognizes nuances.  For example, there were fakes and phonies everywhere in the post-Castro Cuba Revolution.  There were pro-Castro Cubans who were pretending to be anti-Castro, and there were anti-Castro Cuband who were pretending to be pro-Castro. 

The WC testimony of Carlos Bringuier highlights this historical fact.

There can be little doubt that JURE had secret members inside Cuba, who were working for Castro's downfall.  This was true of all of the anti-Castro groups -- they had moles everywhere -- in Miami, in the training camps, and inside Cuba.

The alternative that I perceive for JURE had nothing to do with Mexico City, but with a secret voyage to Cuba -- perhaps on a Raid vessel like those used by Gerry Patrick Hemming and his Interpen group, or described by Johnny Martino.  These Cuba raid vessels would sneak onto the Cuban shores and attack farmers and burn crops and so on.  Some of them could drop off snipers, or moles, or anything they wanted -- AS LONG AS THERE WAS A RECEIVING PARTY.  In this scenario, JURE moles inside Cuba could receive LHO from a Raid vessel.  That was Loran Hall's specialty.

So, Mark, my argument retains a very strong logical component.

Regards,
--Paul Trejo 

NOT so fast, Captain Kaos - 

You're basing this on the assumption that whoever O. allegedly "saw" in either consulate was also willing to see this - what's the word - "dialectically." With nuance. On an impromptu "walk in."

Nuance is pretty much the last thing i can imagine in any of the "diplomats" manning the borders of all worlds communist.

"Who are you?"

"My name's Hidell."

"What can we do for you?"

"I'd like to go to your great country, Cuba. I've already been to Russia and am looking for something with a view."

"What are your credentials?"

"I have these papers here which say I'd kill Fidel Castro for a quarter."

"Next??!!!"

[Glenn Nall]

53 minutes ago, Paul Trejo said:

Mark,

Your logic is dualistic -- either they were with Castro or against Castro -- and no middle term.

The logic I use is dialectical -- it recognizes nuances.  For example, there were fakes and phonies everywhere in the post-Castro Cuba Revolution.  There were pro-Castro Cubans who were pretending to be anti-Castro, and there were anti-Castro Cuband who were pretending to be pro-Castro. 

The WC testimony of Carlos Bringuier highlights this historical fact.

There can be little doubt that JURE had secret members inside Cuba, who were working for Castro's downfall.  This was true of all of the anti-Castro groups -- they had moles everywhere -- in Miami, in the training camps, and inside Cuba.

The alternative that I perceive for JURE had nothing to do with Mexico City, but with a secret voyage to Cuba -- perhaps on a Raid vessel like those used by Gerry Patrick Hemming and his Interpen group, or described by Johnny Martino.  These Cuba raid vessels would sneak onto the Cuban shores and attack farmers and burn crops and so on.  Some of them could drop off snipers, or moles, or anything they wanted -- AS LONG AS THERE WAS A RECEIVING PARTY.  In this scenario, JURE moles inside Cuba could receive LHO from a Raid vessel.  That was Loran Hall's specialty.

So, Mark, my argument retains a very strong logical component.

Regards,
--Paul Trejo 

"There can be little doubt that JURE had secret members inside Cuba, who were working for Castro's downfall.  This was true of all of the anti-Castro groups -- they had moles everywhere -- in Miami, in the training camps, and inside Cuba."

and it's safe to say that they didn't enter through the Cuban Consulate in Mexico City. Which is what the original argument was: "as an ANTI-CASTRO group, at the Mexico City embassy of Castro's Cuban government."