David Lifton teases Final Charade on the Night Fright Show

[Paul Trejo]

5 hours ago, Cliff Varnell said:

Prof. Wrone wasn't a witness.

Wrone is an enthusiast with a hunch.

You're parlaying his hunch into a root fact.

Hoover wasn't a rabid anti-Communist who would have loved an invasion of Cuba?

Paul, look...JFK was murdered in a military-style ambush.  That's a fact.  Everything else is speculation -- some of it good, most of it bad.

Cliff,

I realize Professor Wrone wasn't an eye-witness.  Yet he is a capable scholar and researcher.  He found enough FBI documents to show that J. Edgar Hoover came up with the Lone Nut scenario by 3pm CST.

For one thing -- by that time Hoover had called RFK with the firm information that Oswald was NOT a member of the Communist Party, and that Oswald was NOT an officer of the FPCC.

That's a lot of information in 2.5 hours.   In fact, Hoover had a fat file on Oswald, so he knew what he was talking about.

I'm not claiming it as a "root fact," I'm claiming it as a "viable theory."

Hoover was a Constitutionalist who would have approved an invasion of Cuba based on Constitutional procedures.   There was no supporting data.

I realize, Cliff, that JFK was murdered in a military-style ambush.   All the more reason to suspect General Edwin Walker of Dallas, who was closer to Lee Harvey Oswald than is generally suspected.

General Walker was still in his 50's in 1963 -- anybody who claims he was an old nut just isn't looking.   General Edwin Walker also led his own active group of Minutemen in Dallas in 1963.  He was deadly serious about Cuba.

Regards,
--Paul Trejo

Edited March 18, 2017 by Paul Trejo

[Paul Trejo]

On 3/15/2017 at 4:56 PM, Micah Mileto said:

I think Pat Speer's website has a great bit explaining how the arrangement of the scalp and bone flaps may have given the wrong impression of the large head wound in certain photographs. The films do show the large head wound extending somewhat to the back (parietal), but the BOH photographs conceal that with the Doctor holding up a flap of scalp. 

Micah,

I haven't checked out Pat Speer's website yet.  Thanks for the tip.  I'll check it out.

Regards,
--Paul Trejo

[Cliff Varnell]

13 hours ago, Paul Trejo said:

Cliff,

I realize Professor Wrone wasn't an eye-witness.  Yet he is a capable scholar and researcher.  He found enough FBI documents to show that J. Edgar Hoover came up with the Lone Nut scenario by 3pm CST.

Not even close.

Hoover told RFK that Oswald had visited Cuba.

Quote

For one thing -- by that time Hoover had called RFK with the firm information that Oswald was NOT a member of the Communist Party, and that Oswald was NOT an officer of the FPCC.

So? How does that establish that Hoover believed Oswald acted alone?

Hoover told Tolson he didn't buy the lone assassin scenario.

We've already been over this twice.

Quote

That's a lot of information in 2.5 hours.   In fact, Hoover had a fat file on Oswald, so he knew what he was talking about.

Especially the part about Oswald visiting Cuba...

Quote

I'm not claiming it as a "root fact," I'm claiming it as a "viable theory."

You state it as a fact, do you not?

 

 

 

Edited March 18, 2017 by Cliff Varnell

[Paul Trejo]

3 hours ago, Cliff Varnell said:

Not even close.

Hoover told RFK that Oswald had visited Cuba.

So? How does that establish that Hoover believed Oswald acted alone?

Hoover told Tolson he didn't buy the lone assassin scenario.

We've already been over this twice.

Especially the part about Oswald visiting Cuba...

You state it as a fact, do you not?

Cliff,

Hoover stated two FACTS to RFK:  (1) LHO was NOT a member of the Communist Party; and (2) LHO was NOT an officer of the FPCC.

Hoover stated as an OPINION to RFK that LHO was among the many Interpen members who had been to Cuba several times.  

IMHO, this showed Hoover's hand -- his FBI files showed that LHO was working at 544 Camp Street with Guy Banister & Co. which included members of Interpen.  (BTW, this includes several people who confessed to some role in the JFK murder, including Frank Sturgis, Gerry Patrick Hemming, Loran Hall, Jack S. Martin, David Ferrie and Tommy Beckham).  It was the Interpen boys who had been to Cuba several times.

So, the mistake by Hoover was an honest mistake.

We know for a fact that Hoover himself never believed the "Lone Nut" myth that he himself invented.   IMHO, Hoover knew that General Walker in Dallas, and Guy Banister in New Orleans, were the leaders of the JFK assassination.   He knew it like the back of his own hand.

Hoover received a lot of conflicting data -- still needing to be sorted out -- about LHO and Cuba.  The CIA, for example, was torn between a Mole Hunt for the LHO impersonator in Mexico City (Simpich, 2014) and the fact that LHO was trying to get a visa there in late September 1963, plus the fact that LHO was working at 544 Camp Street, which included so many Cuba Raid mercenaries.

I can forgive Hoover for making that error.  It was an error.

I propose this only as a viable CT.

Regards,
--Paul Trejo

Edited March 18, 2017 by Paul Trejo

[Cliff Varnell]

1 hour ago, Paul Trejo said:

Cliff,

Hoover stated two FACTS to RFK:  (1) LHO was NOT a member of the Communist Party; and (2) LHO was NOT an officer of the FPCC.

Hoover stated as an OPINION to RFK that LHO was among the many Interpen members who had been to Cuba several times.  

That's not how it reads.  From his 4:01 pm est memo:

I related that Oswald went to Russia and stayed three years; came back to the United States in June, 1962, and went to Cuba on several occasions but would not tell us what he went to Cuba for. 

Hoover's words -- "went to Cuba on several occasions."

 

1 hour ago, Paul Trejo said:

IMHO, this showed Hoover's hand -- his FBI files showed that LHO was working at 544 Camp Street with Guy Banister & Co. which included members of Interpen.  (BTW, this includes several people who confessed to some role in the JFK murder, including Frank Sturgis, Gerry Patrick Hemming, Loran Hall, Jack S. Martin, David Ferrie and Tommy Beckham).  It was the Interpen boys who had been to Cuba several times.

So, the mistake by Hoover was an honest mistake.

Where in that memo did he refer to Interpen?

1 hour ago, Paul Trejo said:

We know for a fact that Hoover himself never believed the "Lone Nut" myth that he himself invented. 

There you go again. You're incorrigible.

1 hour ago, Paul Trejo said:

 

IMHO, Hoover knew that General Walker in Dallas, and Guy Banister in New Orleans, were the leaders of the JFK assassination.   He knew it like the back of his own hand.

Hoover received a lot of conflicting data -- still needing to be sorted out -- about LHO and Cuba.  The CIA, for example, was torn between a Mole Hunt for the LHO impersonator in Mexico City (Simpich, 2014) and the fact that LHO was trying to get a visa there in late September 1963, plus the fact that LHO was working at 544 Camp Street, which included so many Cuba Raid mercenaries.

I can forgive Hoover for making that error.  It was an error.

I propose this only as a viable CT.

Regards,
--Paul Trejo

To claim that rabid anti-Communist J Edgar Hoover didn't want to pin the crime on Castro is a joke.

His December 12 '63 memo:

I said I personally believe Oswald was the assassin; that the second aspect as to whether he was the only man gives me great concern; that we have several letters, not in the report because we were not able to prove it, written to him from Cuba referring to the job he was going to do, his good marksmanship, and stating when it was all over he would be brought back to Cuba and presented to the chief; but we do not know if the chief was Castro and cannot make an investigation because we have no intelligence operation in Cuba; that I did not put this into the report because we did not have proof of it and didn't want to put speculation in the report; that this was the reason I urged strongly that we not reach conclusion Oswald was the only man.

[Paul Trejo]

1 hour ago, Cliff Varnell said:

(1)   That's not how it reads.  From his 4:01 pm est memo:

I related that Oswald went to Russia and stayed three years; came back to the United States in June, 1962, and went to Cuba on several occasions but would not tell us what he went to Cuba for. 

Hoover's words -- "went to Cuba on several occasions."

Where in that memo did he refer to Interpen?

(2)   There you go again. You're incorrigible.

To claim that rabid anti-Communist J Edgar Hoover didn't want to pin the crime on Castro is a joke.

(3)  His December 12 '63 memo:

I said I personally believe Oswald was the assassin; that the second aspect as to whether he was the only man gives me great concern; that we have several letters, not in the report because we were not able to prove it, written to him from Cuba referring to the job he was going to do, his good marksmanship, and stating when it was all over he would be brought back to Cuba and presented to the chief; but we do not know if the chief was Castro and cannot make an investigation because we have no intelligence operation in Cuba; that I did not put this into the report because we did not have proof of it and didn't want to put speculation in the report; that this was the reason I urged strongly that we not reach conclusion Oswald was the only man.

Cliff,

I realize the points you are making -- but my points are qualifying.  

(1)  Hoover made a MISTAKE when he claimed that Oswald "went to Cuba on several occasions" because Hoover was accidentally conflating Lee Harvey Oswald with Gerry Patrick Hemming (or Loran Hall).

He didn't SAY it -- but Hoover was well aware of Gerry Patrick Hemming in the politics of assassination and failed assassination games and headaches.   Hemming was on Hoover's mind.

Bear in mind that on 11/22/1963, the rifle of Gerry Patrick Hemming was found on the person of Loran Hall, and the FBI made a wider investigation of this, linking it to Roy Hargraves -- you know the story.

Furthermore, IMHO Hoover invented the "Lone Nut" myth by 3PM CST, as Professor David Wrone (Wisconsin U.) has discovered.  I don't know why you think that's incorrect.   It is perfectly viable as a CT.

(2)  If Hoover wanted to blame Castro he could have done that easily -- the entire case of Dallas officers -- top to bottom -- wanted nothing more.  Hoover only needed to rely on their claims.  BUT HE DIDN'T.

Instead, J. Edgar Hoover INSISTED on the doctrine that Lee Harvey Oswald, and NOBODY ELSE, was involved in the JFK murder.   Hoover maintained the "Lone Nut" nonsense from 11/22/1963 until the day he died.   That is the core of my CT.

(3)  The memo you cited, Cliff, really proves my point.  Here we see that Hoover backs away from the claim that Oswald had accomplices.  His excuse is that "we were never able to prove it," but that is sleight-of-hand.   Hoover really refers to rumors heard from Dallas -- lies that Dallas had prepared with which to frame LHO as a Communist working for Fidel Castro.   Hoover had every chance to use this data, but he REFUSED.  

J. Edgar Hoover is playing with the reader's mind when he says that I urged strongly that we not reach conclusion Oswald was the only man.   Hoover is trying to hide the fact that HOOVER was the inventor of the "Lone Nut" doctrine from 11/22/1963 forward.  

In evidence, it is now my turn to quote Hoover:  Hoover told the WC, while under oath:

Representative BOGGS. ...I read the FBI report very carefully and the whole implication of the report is that, number one, Oswald shot the President; number two, that he was not connected with any conspiracy of any kind, nature or description. 

Mr. HOOVER. Correct. 

Representative BOGGS. Do you still subscribe to that? 

Mr. HOOVER. I subscribe to it even more strongly today than I did at the time that the report was written. You see, the original idea was that there would be an investigation by the FBI and a report would be prepared in such form that it could be released to the public. 

Representative BOGGS. Surely. 

Mr. HOOVER. Then a few days later, after further consideration, the President decided to form a Commission, which I think was very wise, because I feel that the report of any agency of Government investigating what might be some shortcomings on the part of other agencies of Government ought to be reviewed by an impartial group such as this Commission. And the more I have read these reports, the more I am convinced that Oswald was the man who fired the gun; and he fired three times, killed the President, and wounded Governor Connally.  And I also am further convinced that there is absolutely no association between Oswald or Ruby...

In my CT, Hoover had settled this on DAY ONE.  This is also the opinion of Professor David Wrone.  Everything else was sleight-of-hand.

Regards,
--Paul Trejo

Edited March 18, 2017 by Paul Trejo
typos

[Cliff Varnell]

On 3/18/2017 at 3:37 PM, Paul Trejo said:

 Hoover made a MISTAKE when he claimed that Oswald "went to Cuba on several occasions" because Hoover was accidentally conflating Lee Harvey Oswald with Gerry Patrick Hemming (or Loran Hall).

 

He didn't SAY it -- but Hoover was well aware of Gerry Patrick Hemming in the politics of assassination and failed assassination games and headaches.   Hemming was on Hoover's mind.

,,,

 

J. Edgar Hoover is playing with the reader's mind when he says that I urged strongly that we not reach conclusion Oswald was the only man.   Hoover is trying to hide the fact that HOOVER was the inventor of the "Lone Nut" doctrine from 11/22/1963 forward.  

 

Some of the silliest assertions I've seen in this case.

And that's saying a lot...

[Paul Trejo]

8 hours ago, Cliff Varnell said:

Some of the silliest assertions I've seen in this case.

And that's saying a lot...

Cliff,

My assertions remain plausible, and they complement a viable CT in which the Radical Right in Dallas killed JFK.

BTW, I agree with you that JFK CT's include some of the stupidest things ever said in American literature.   CIA-did-it, Mafia-did-it and LBJ-did-it CT's come to mind.

Also, trying to blame TSBD employees, Russian Expatriates and Ruth Paine -- have all been useless.

It's been a half-century, y'all.   It's time to concentrate on the DPD and Dallas Deputy WC witnesses for a change.

Regards,
--Paul Trejo

Edited March 20, 2017 by Paul Trejo

[B. A. Copeland]

On 3/15/2017 at 7:49 AM, Paul Trejo said:

Micah,

Thanks for the reply.  What do you make of the official head photographs, in which some show the back of the head to be completely intact, and others show an apparent obliteration?  Do we not have contradictory photographs?   What is your theory of this?

Regards,
--Paul Trejo

Any person alive today and interested in the JFK murder has every single reason to believe that much of the autopsy evidence is not acceptable evidence today.

Edited March 29, 2017 by B. A. Copeland

[Paul Trejo]

2 hours ago, B. A. Copeland said:

Any person alive today and interested in the JFK murder has every single reason to believe that much of the autopsy evidence is not acceptable evidence today.

B.A. Copeland,

What is your personal assessment of the JFK autopsy evidence that we observe today?

Regards,
--Paul Trejo

[James DiEugenio]

On March 19, 2017 at 10:37 PM, Cliff Varnell said:

Some of the silliest assertions I've seen in this case.

And that's saying a lot...

Cliff and I don't agree on much but we agree on PT.

[Paul Trejo]

On ‎3‎/‎20‎/‎2017 at 0:37 AM, Cliff Varnell said:

Some of the silliest assertions I've seen in this case.

And that's saying a lot...

Cliff,

You're referring to my claim that J. Edgar Hoover was manipulating public opinion when he said he really believed LHO had accomplices, but was "never able to prove that."

Here is more evidence.  In the early 1990's former DPD Chief Jesse Curry told the press that he always thought that some shots came from the Grassy Knoll, "but we were never able to prove that."

See the pattern?  They were playing cat and mouse with the public.

Regards,
--Paul Trejo

Edited March 29, 2017 by Paul Trejo

[Cliff Varnell]

6 hours ago, Paul Trejo said:

Cliff,

You're referring to my claim that J. Edgar Hoover was manipulating public opinion when he said he really believed LHO had accomplices, but was "never able to prove that."

Here is more evidence.  In the early 1990's former DPD Chief Jesse Curry told the press that he always thought that some shots came from the Grassy Knoll, "but we were never able to prove that."

See the pattern?  They were playing cat and mouse with the public.

Regards,
--Paul Trejo

These were FBI memos Hoover wrote, not press releases.

J Edgar was manipulating Tolson's opinion?

Researcher, puh-leeze!

[B. A. Copeland]

17 hours ago, Paul Trejo said:

B.A. Copeland,

What is your personal assessment of the JFK autopsy evidence that we observe today?

Regards,
--Paul Trejo

Well its rather simple personally: my assessment can be fully understood once you study (at the very least) Dr's. David Mantik and Chesser, Milicent Cranor, Sibert and O'Neill, Pierre Finck and, of course, John Stringer testimonies and analyses. those are just a few...that "evidence" would absolutely not be accepted in a non-CIA/Power Elite/Establishment, etc., controlled court today.

 

 

Edited March 29, 2017 by B. A. Copeland

[Paul Trejo]

16 minutes ago, B. A. Copeland said:

Well its rather simple personally: my assessment can be fully understood once you study (at the very least) Dr's. David Mantik and Chesser, Milicent Cranor, Sibert and O'Neill, Pierre Finck and, of course, John Stringer testimonies and analyses. those are just a few...that "evidence" would absolutely not be accepted in a non-CIA/Power Elite/Establishment, etc., controlled court today.

B.A. Copeland,

So, could one say that your opinion roughly coincides with that of Pat Speer's autopsy theory?    

Regards,
--Paul Trejo