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Micah Mileto

David Lifton teases Final Charade on the Night Fright Show

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http://www.maryferrell.org/mffweb/archive/viewer/showDoc.do?docId=43604&relPageId=5

 

“….even though Admiral Burkley and General Clifton insist on ambulance transport of JFK’s body to Bethesda, Gerald Behn at the White House subsequently orders Roy Kellerman:”You accompany the body aboard the helicopter” Finally, General Clifton insist and then repeats, in great detail, orders for a fork lift and platform at the left rear of the aircraft for the casket, a personnel ramp at the left front of the aircraft for President Johnson and other passengers debarkation, and another personnel ramp at the right front of the air plane (the dark, unlit side of the aircraft, where there is a galley door) for the departure of jacqueline Kennedy…..”

 

[snip]

 

“An air force document titled “Historical Highlights of Andrews Air Force Base, 1942/1989’ states that “the body of the slain President was removed to Walter Reed General Hospital…” 

 

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12 hours ago, David Lifton said:

David: 

You are one of those who has a completely incorrect model of conspiracy, and is destined to end up in the dustbin of history.

Thanks for archiving all the material you have collected, but your analysis leaves much to be desired.

If there was an Internet back in 1859, when Origin of the Species was published, you would have been one of those with a massive website arguing against evolution, and saying. . "Just look at all these dogs and cats that I have collected. . . and what about the apes and all the other animals in the zoo! You mean to tell me that all of this is somehow connected!  That all these different species came about naturally!  That's ridiculous!  Darwin is nothing but a kook!  All of this was created in about 7 days, and if you don't believe me, go to my Website, "Darwin Sucks.com"

DSL

Well, David Lifton, I think about the only thing a reasonable person needs to do in order to come to a firm conclusion that your theory is utter hogwash (not to mention impossible) is to read the following portion of this post of yours:

"The plan, from the outset, was to murder the president, and then alter his body to change the story of how he died. If one has control of the body (immediately) after the shooting, one then is in a position to change the story of how he died, i.e., to fabricate a false "solution" to the crime." -- David Lifton; Feb. 6, 2017

The key words written by David L. above are these words:

"The plan, from the outset, was to...alter his body."

Maybe we should all take a step back and just think about the above comment for a few moments. It shouldn't take very long, though, for any sensible person to fully appreciate just how ridiculous and far-out and nonsensical and impossible and downright crazy that comment by David S. Lifton truly is.

But I guess it does prove one thing: If a conspiracy theorist puts his mind to it, he can always manage to "improve" his fantasy theory --- even a conspiracy fantasy that began 50 years ago.

Time for a Reality Check now. Here's something I said to Mr. Lifton in 2013, and it certainly applies here in 2017 as well:

"The JFK case has a very curious effect on certain people (such as David Lifton of Los Angeles) -- They treat the evidence as if it's something that needs to be molded and crafted into something that it is not. In plainer terms, they simply IGNORE all the evidence of Lee Harvey Oswald's lone guilt in the assassination of the 35th President, and they expect the masses to fall at their feet and give thanks to these expert "researchers" like Mr. Lifton who have literally made a mockery out of the true evidence in this case.

Body alteration....casket-switching....bullet-planting...."diversions" in the Sniper's Nest window....NO SHOTS hit the victims from behind....and "Oswald Was Nothing But A Patsy" are the mottos endorsed by this band of JFK conspiracists.

And, incredibly, ALL of the above cloak-and-dagger hocus-pocus (aka: hogwash) is supposedly, per the likes of David Lifton, providing a MORE REASONABLE and MORE LOGICAL and MORE RATIONAL and MORE TRUTHFUL explanation to the events in Dallas on 11/22/63 than to simply believe that the evidence in this case has NOT been forged, faked, or manipulated and, therefore, Lee Harvey Oswald was just exactly what the evidence in this case says he was --- a double-murderer.

Somebody please provide Mr. Lifton with a dictionary -- because he evidently has no idea what the definitions are for words like "Reasonable", "Rational", "Logical", and "Truthful"."
-- DVP; May 4, 2013

http://jfk-archives.blogspot.com/2013/07/david-von-pein-vs-david-lifton.html

 

Edited by David Von Pein

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Hi David,

I would like to take this opportunity to say that I think your book Best Evidence is a great read from start to finish. I do have to be honest enough to say that I am yet to be convinced on it all, but nevertheless I still hold your book in the highest of esteem...

14 hours ago, David Lifton said:

The plan, from the outset, was to murder the president, and then alter his body to change the story of how he died.

Why not just shoot Kennedy from the 6th floor window in the first place and then there is no need to alter the body? That is the question I keep coming back to and is the stumbling block on which I am unable to convince myself on... no biggy though.

Really I just wanted to say kudos on your book.

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37 minutes ago, Alistair Briggs said:

Hi David,

I would like to take this opportunity to say that I think your book Best Evidence is a great read from start to finish. I do have to be honest enough to say that I am yet to be convinced on it all, but nevertheless I still hold your book in the highest of esteem...

Why not just shoot Kennedy from the 6th floor window in the first place and then there is no need to alter the body? That is the question I keep coming back to and is the stumbling block on which I am unable to convince myself on... no biggy though.

Really I just wanted to say kudos on your book.

Alistair,

I'd like to take a 'crack' at that. US Government doesn't like conspiracy. On Friday evening LHO was alive. USG thought there was going to be a trial, hence the alterations. Pointing to one shooter from the rear by the man in custody. That is the simplest explanation. It gives USG time to investigate then determine proper action. All this assumes however LHO faces justice, USG justice. This scenario also assumes USG is NOT part of the crime.

Alternatively, if USG IS part of the crime, then why not set it up properly from the rear. Surely they had the sharpshooters that could do that.

The way the crime 'played out' implies that USG was not a player. Just my opinion.

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Wow! Esteemed JFK authors/researchers David Lifton & David Von Pein take off the gloves here on EF. Can it get any better than this?

In David Lifton's corner, I am looking forward to Final Charade explaining to me why Lee Oswald wasn't killed immediately after the ambush of JFK either in the TSBD or close proximity  while allegedly 'on the run'. That explanation from early investigators would have made a lot of better, acceptable sense at the time: 'man in building shoots JFK & John Connally passing by in a car during a parade in Dallas, then man is killed after threatening police responders that entered the building. Man's rifle & spent shells is found next to his body after police took him out'.

I hope David Lifton explains why the JFK kill organizers risked Lee Oswald simply walking over to WFAA-TV, telling Program Director Jay Watkins he had important info about the attack on JFK & JBC & demand to be placed on the air. (Had LHO taken that route from the TSBD, he would have walked right past a parked bus at the intersection of Main & Houston streets that could have aided his 'escape' once traffic began moving again after the ambush). Would JFK kill organizers be so sloppy as to risk that?

In David Von Pein's corner, he pretty much has laid his Prosecutor's case out before: 'man in building shoots JFK & JBC, hides weapon between some boxes, is spotted in a lunchroom & questioned by a police responder, man's boss clears man, man walks out & makes his way to his rooming house to arm himself......encounters DPD officer Tippit & murders him...hides in the Texas theatre....etc....'

People globally have a tremendous amount of respect for both Davids (Lifton & Von Pein). I'm in that number. What they both say matters in this case that only has 3 possibilities: LHO did it alone, LHO did it with help, LHO was framed.

Sincerely & respectfully,

Brad Milch

Edited by Brad Milch

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On ‎2‎/‎6‎/‎2017 at 2:22 AM, David Lifton said:

David [Von Pein], 

You are one of those who has a completely incorrect model of conspiracy, and is destined to end up in the dustbin of history.

Thanks for archiving all the material you have collected, but your analysis leaves much to be desired....

DSL

David Lifton,

I also loved your book, Best Evidence (1980) and I agree with your theory of a previous autopsy and an altered autopsy.

However -- I also like the skeptical musings of David Von Pein (DVP) and have followed him for years.  There is too much nonsense in the CT community, and DVP helps to keep the CT community honest.

Yet like every other skeptic, DVP goes too far in one direction, IMHO.

I agree that the doctors at Bethesda Hospital were not above changing the Truth, in the interest of National Security, acting on orders from the White House.

Yet I don't blame LBJ for the JFK assassination.  I sharply distinguish the JFK Kill Team from the JFK Cover-up Team -- two different Teams with opposite goals.  (The JFK Kill Team had set up a "Communist" Oswald patsy, while the JFK Cover-up Team successfully challenged this with a "Lone Nut" Oswald.)

The main difference I have with your CT, David, is that I affirm that the tasks of the previous autopsy and the altered autopsy were rushed -- conceived quickly after the JFK assassination 11/22/1963 -- based on a rush order that started perhaps around 3PM CST, when J. Edgar Hoover quickly and brilliantly conceived the "Lone Nut" theory for the purpose of National Security (cf. Prof. David Wrone, 2005).

Can we imagine the propaganda victory that the USSR would have obtained during the Cold War, if the actual truth of a JFK plot by General Walker's Radical Right in Dallas had become public (cf. Dr. Jeffrey Caufield, 2015)?

It really was a question of National Security.   That's why, IMHO, after the USSR fell in 1990, President GHW Bush signed the JFK Records Act in 1992.  I truly expect to see all the Top Secret JFK assassination records still withheld by the US Government, revealed by October of this year.  That's only 9 months away now.

ANYWAY, David -- I eagerly look forward to reading your latest book, Final Charade (2017). 

Your preview suggests that Oswald was killed at Parkland Hospital.  That makes perfect sense to  me, since the Radical Right in Dallas (which included many members of the Dallas police and Sheriff's office) had complete control of Oswald.

Your preview suggests that Jack Ruby was part of a hasty backup plan.  That makes perfect sense to me, since as Seth Kantor (1978) argued, Jack Ruby was a stooge of the Dallas police.

Your preview suggests that Oswald probably did carry a large package containing a rifle into the TSBD, yet was not a shooter.   This means that Oswald handed over his rifle to somebody that he trusted.  This matches what A.J. Weberman wrote in NODULE 23, in his interview with Gerry Patrick Hemming, who told Weberman that he called Oswald from Miami on 11/21/1963 and offered him double the price of his Manlicher-Carcano rifle if he would bring it to the TSBD the next morning. 

Oswald trusted the person to whom he handed his rifle-- so that person was most likely an associate of Guy Banister  -- perhaps Loran Hall (who was in Dallas that day, according to Gerry Patrick Hemming) or perhaps one of many other Radical Right folks in Dallas.

In any case -- your latest CT has lots of energy, David Lifton.   Godspeed to you.

Regards,
--Paul Trejo

Edited by Paul Trejo
clarity

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22 hours ago, Claude Barnabe said:

Alistair,

I'd like to take a 'crack' at that. US Government doesn't like conspiracy. On Friday evening LHO was alive. USG thought there was going to be a trial, hence the alterations. Pointing to one shooter from the rear by the man in custody. That is the simplest explanation. It gives USG time to investigate then determine proper action. All this assumes however LHO faces justice, USG justice. This scenario also assumes USG is NOT part of the crime.

Alternatively, if USG IS part of the crime, then why not set it up properly from the rear. Surely they had the sharpshooters that could do that.

The way the crime 'played out' implies that USG was not a player. Just my opinion.

Claude, happy to discuss further this topic :) Perhaps if you start a new thread for it... ;)

22 hours ago, Brad Milch said:

People globally have a tremendous amount of respect for both Davids (Lifton & Von Pein). I'm in that number. What they both say matters in this case that only has 3 possibilities: LHO did it alone, LHO did it with help, LHO was framed.

QFT ;)

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On ‎2‎/‎6‎/‎2017 at 6:59 PM, Brad Milch said:

Wow! Esteemed JFK authors/researchers David Lifton & David Von Pein take off the gloves here on EF. Can it get any better than this?

(1) In David Lifton's corner, I am looking forward to Final Charade explaining to me why Lee Oswald wasn't killed immediately after the ambush of JFK either in the TSBD or close proximity  while allegedly 'on the run'. That explanation from early investigators would have made a lot of better, acceptable sense at the time: 'man in building shoots JFK & John Connally passing by in a car during a parade in Dallas, then man is killed after threatening police responders that entered the building. Man's rifle & spent shells is found next to his body after police took him out'.

(2) I hope David Lifton explains why the JFK kill organizers risked Lee Oswald simply walking over to WFAA-TV, telling Program Director Jay Watkins he had important info about the attack on JFK & JBC & demand to be placed on the air. (Had LHO taken that route from the TSBD, he would have walked right past a parked bus at the intersection of Main & Houston streets that could have aided his 'escape' once traffic began moving again after the ambush). Would JFK kill organizers be so sloppy as to risk that?

(3) People globally have a tremendous amount of respect for both Davids (Lifton & Von Pein). I'm in that number. What they both say matters in this case that only has 3 possibilities: LHO did it alone, LHO did it with help, LHO was framed.

Sincerely & respectfully,

Brad Milch

Brad,

Good questions.  I can't resist adding my own opinions here.

(1) I think the reason LHO wasn't killed in the TSBD was because he escaped.  People are still guessing about how he got out of the TSBD. 

(1.1)  LHO realized as soon as JFK was killed that the chances were high that he was being framed, since he had handed over his rifle to a trusted ally just that same morning.  So, LHO calmly avoided people and got out of the TSBD as fast and as calmly as he could.

(1.2) I think LHO was supposed to be killed at the site where J.D. Tippit was killed -- but LHO was faster on the draw.

(1.3) Thus, there is a fair chance that J.D. Tippit was Badgeman, and that Tippit was supposed to get rid of LHO later.

(1.4) There is also a chance that Tippit was driving the the beep-beep car outside LHO's rooming house.

(2) The reason the JFK Kill Team believed they could (mildly) trust LHO not to run to the Newsmen to tell them what he knew, was because LHO was part of their conspiracy.  Although, LHO had been told that the actual target of their plot was Fidel Castro (and LHO would have been paid a lot of money for his role in that plot, if it succeeded). 

(2.1) Also, Jeff Caufield (2015) believes that LHO might have been told that there was going to be a Fake Attempt to assassinate JFK that day, just to scare the public into attacking Fidel Castro and Cuba.  If Caufield is right, then LHO was part of the plot, and he would have avoided the Newsmen, and played it cool (as he did at the DPD station).

(3) It seems to me that the truth is closer to two of your options combined, Brad, i.e. LHO was framed, but he was an unwitting part of the Kill Team, and he handed his rifle over to them like an idiot. 

Regards,
--Paul Trejo

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@Paul

Very good points you make that deserve close scrutiny & consideration from those following the debates here at EF, good Sir!

I often wonder if some of the shooting people heard in Dealey Plaza over 53 years ago wasn't someone trying to gun down LHO in the TSBD before he could get out.

Another is the question: how would the story have been received by the public if it had been LHO laying dead in the street from bullets instead of DPD officer Tippit? Police gun down alleged fugitives on the run all the time.

Respectfully & sincerely,

Brad Milch

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2 hours ago, Brad Milch said:

@Paul

...Another is the question: how would the story have been received by the public if it had been LHO laying dead in the street from bullets instead of DPD officer Tippit? Police gun down alleged fugitives on the run all the time.

Respectfully & sincerely,

Brad Milch

Brad,

Good question.  IMHO, if Tippit had killed LHO (and Tippit did have his gun drawn when he died) the public would have condemned LHO, anyway, because LHO's rifle was found on the 6th floor TSBD.

Also, the JFK Kill Team had TV video of LHO in New Orleans promoting Fidel Castro.  This was already planned by Guy Banister of the Radical Right.  That would have been plenty for most people -- but there was more.  Thanks to David Morales, the CIA also had (bogus) evidence that LHO was speaking with KGB agent Valeriy Kostikov in Mexico City.   Case closed.

Most people would have quickly sided with the Dallas police, IMHO.

Regards,
--Paul Trejo

Edited by Paul Trejo
clarity

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8 hours ago, Paul Trejo said:

(1) I think the reason LHO wasn't killed in the TSBD was because he escaped.  People are still guessing about how he got out of the TSBD. 

It doesn't really take too much "guessing". He just walked out the front door. He was seen by Mrs. Reid on the 2nd floor headed for the area where the front stairs were located. Those stairs dump you out right by the front entrance of the building. The building wasn't sealed by the police until about 12:37 PM, and Oswald likely walked out the front door at about 12:33, beating the "sealing off" time by four minutes. So, there's really no big mystery there.

 

Quote

(1.1)  LHO realized as soon as JFK was killed that the chances were high that he was being framed, since he had handed over his rifle to a trusted ally just that same morning.  So, LHO calmly avoided people and got out of the TSBD as fast and as calmly as he could.

You seem to be making stuff up out of thin air, Paul. Please provide the citation/proof/testimony/verification that Lee Oswald "handed over his rifle to a trusted ally" on November 22, 1963. I'd like to see that proof. You wrote the above comment as if it were a proven fact, when, in actuality, you're just rewriting history and inventing conspiracy scenarios to suit your needs and/or wishes.

 

Quote

(1.2) I think LHO was supposed to be killed at the site where J.D. Tippit was killed -- but LHO was faster on the draw.

More speculation. And nothing more. And you're implying that Officer Tippit was part of some plot to rub out Oswald, which (IMO) is irresponsible, since there's not a scrap of reliable evidence to even suggest that J.D. Tippit was involved in any way whatsoever with the murders that occurred on 11/22/63, other than as Oswald's second victim.

 

Quote

(1.3) Thus, there is a fair chance that J.D. Tippit was Badgeman, and that Tippit was supposed to get rid of LHO later.

More ridiculous unsupportable speculation and conjecture.

 

Quote

(1.4) There is also a chance that Tippit was driving the beep-beep car outside LHO's rooming house.

I bet Mrs. Marie Tippit just loves this kind of talk about her murdered husband. She must do nothing but shake her head back and forth in disgust all day long when she hears all the fantasy talk about J.D.

http://jfk-archives.blogspot.com/2012/05/jfk-assassination-arguments-part-195.html

 

Quote

(2) The reason the JFK Kill Team believed they could (mildly) trust LHO not to run to the Newsmen to tell them what he knew, was because LHO was part of their conspiracy.  Although, LHO had been told that the actual target of their plot was Fidel Castro (and LHO would have been paid a lot of money for his role in that plot, if it succeeded). 

(2.1) Also, Jeff Caufield (2015) believes that LHO might have been told that there was going to be a Fake Attempt to assassinate JFK that day, just to scare the public into attacking Fidel Castro and Cuba.  If Caufield is right, then LHO was part of the plot, and he would have avoided the Newsmen, and played it cool (as he did at the DPD station).

(3) It seems to me that the truth is closer to two of your options combined, Brad, i.e. LHO was framed, but he was an unwitting part of the Kill Team, and he handed his rifle over to them like an idiot. 

What's the source for all of that junk, Paul? Jeffrey Caufield only?

Conspiracy talk can be fun to play around with, I guess. But when a whole bunch of evidence all points toward one single person (and one single rifle), then why pretend Oswald "handed over" his rifle to some co-conspirator, when a perfectly reasonable and sensible scenario -- i.e., Lee Harvey Oswald himself shot the President -- is right there on the table as well?

Should we over-complicate the evidence by interjecting "conspiracy", even though none of the physical evidence (or Oswald's own actions on Nov. 21 or 22) requires the interjection of any conspiracy whatsoever?

EDIT -- To be fair to Paul Trejo, when re-reading Paul's post, which is knee-deep in speculation and guesswork, Paul did say these words to begin his post: "I can't resist adding my own opinions here." Key word there being "Opinions". :)

 

Edited by David Von Pein

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@David Von Pein & Paul:

In several debates (and in his massive book), Vincent Bugliosi emphasizes that JFK researchers, enthusiasts, historians, students, hobbyists & journalists that separate the evidence all make the same mistake. The segments are only a portion of the whole picture. All the evidence against LHO, when viewed as a whole, paints a picture of his guilt (according to Mr. Bugliosi). That is, if one finds the evidence credible.

I'm obviously as guilty of not looking at the whole evidence in the case against LHO as the next person that does the same.

Vince was a brilliant reasoner. I wonder if he's convinced the Creator that he doesn't exist or if Vince was right all along that we're all alone on this crowded rock...(if Vince is correct on THAT divinity issue, it means he doesn't have anyone to debate the issue (wherever Vince is).

(lol)

 

Respectfully & sincerely,

Brad Milch

Edited by Brad Milch

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Brad Milch said:

In several debates (and in his massive book), Vincent Bugliosi emphasizes that JFK researchers, enthusiasts, historians, students, hobbyists & journalists that separate the evidence all make the same mistake. The segments are only a portion of the whole picture. All the evidence against LHO, when viewed as a whole, paints a picture of his guilt (according to Mr. Bugliosi).

Indeed, Brad. ....

http://jfk-archives.blogspot.com/2010/07/isolating-evidence.html

Excerpts from above article/webpage (BTW/FWIW, in the years since writing these comments, I've severely curtailed my use of the "K" word when referring to conspiracy believers):

"The Rabid Kooks will continue to isolate the evidence and then hold up each "isolated" piece and shout "Look! Here's proof of conspiracy!", without placing that piece back into the TOTALITY of the overall evidence in the case (in order to figure out if this isolated hunk of data really DOES, in fact, point away from Oswald's lone guilt).

Several recent "isolation" examples have been demonstrated by crazy CT-Kooks. Such as (but certainly not limited to the following):

The "Irving Sports Shop" controversy. Did LHO have some repair work done on his rifle (C2766)? Or was it part of the grand "plot" to set him up as the "Patsy"? .... Bud provided various reasonable examples of why the CT-Kooks have totally misinterpreted the Sports Shop incident. But the kooks fail to re-assess that incident. They, instead, will INSIST it was an act of "conspiracy". ....

Howard Brennan's testimony, which has been dissected to totally-ludicrous levels of craziness by some CT-Kooks. The kooks will "isolate" things within Brennan's testimony, and will single these things out as being that ever-desired "proof of conspiracy" in JFK's murder. And such isolation regarding Brennan's remarks is just plain screwy -- esp. when it comes to the kooks who wish to tear down Brennan's physical description of the sixth-floor assassin, which was a description that comes remarkably close, indeed, to matching Lee Oswald---"A [white] man in his early thirties, fair complexion, slender but neat, neat slender, possibly 5-foot-10, 160 to 170 pounds." -- Howard L. Brennan

That description, when taken as a "general" witness observation, certainly does NOT exclude Lee Harvey Oswald. In fact, it "fits" Lee Harvey Oswald pretty darn nicely in most crucial respects -- e.g., Oswald was "slender"; Oswald was a "white man"; Oswald did have a "fair complexion"; Oswald was 5'9" (Brennan was a mere one inch off there); Oswald weighed an "estimated 150 pounds" (per his autopsy report). So Brennan was only ten pounds off on his weight estimate of the assassin. .....

But the kooks will isolate the "early 30s" reference, or the "170 pounds" remark, and attempt to make it appear that Mr. Brennan could not POSSIBLY have been looking at Lee Oswald for those few fleeting moments on 11/22/63." -- DVP; August 2006

---------------

"JFK's head could have performed a Linda Blair imitation and spun around thirteen times after the bullet hit him, and it still wouldn't have altered the verifiable entry and exit wounds on his head that were discovered at the President's autopsy.

But CTers love to isolate the "Back And To The Left" motion of JFK's head, instead of looking at the autopsy photos and autopsy report which verify that JUST ONE BULLET hit Kennedy in the head. And that one bullet positively came from behind." -- DVP; December 2006

---------------

"The plain truth of the matter is that ANY kook can easily pick apart the Warren Report (they've had ample time, and desire, to do this of course) and then isolate some things that (on the surface) appear to lead down Conspiracy Avenue.

But what these CTers fail to EVER do is place those isolated items back into a COHESIVE WHOLE that adds up to a logical and reasonable...conspiracy plot to kill JFK.

Have we EVER seen such a COHESIVE WHOLE from the CTers? Ever? I sure haven't. Their theories are scattershot and piecemeal (at best); and utterly laughable (at worst)." -- DVP; February 2007

-------------------------------

Bonus Quote from VB....

"The Warren Commission critics and conspiracy theorists display an astonishing inability to see the vast forest of evidence proving Oswald's guilt because of their penchant for obsessing over the branches, even the leaves of individual trees. And, because virtually all of them have no background in criminal investigation, they look at each leaf (piece of evidence) by itself, hardly ever in relation to, and in the context of, all the other evidence." ----Vincent Bugliosi; Pages 952-953 of "Reclaiming History"

Edited by David Von Pein

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4 hours ago, Brad Milch said:

Vince was a brilliant reasoner.

I take issue with that assessment. If Bugliosi were a brilliant reasoner, he would have concluded many things that he did not. For example, that the magic bullet theory was a farce.

I think Bugliosi was a good apologist.

 

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