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Douglas Caddy

Steven Hager: The Two Oswalds

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5 hours ago, Douglas Caddy said:

screen-shot-2016-12-15-at-7-13-36-am

The caption says, "Lee Oswald at the Cuban embassy in Mexico City"

 

LOL. Nope.

(Details to follow ... ) 

Here they are.  Didn't take long, did it?  lol  From the "Blond Oswald in Mexico" thread.

On 12/9/2014 at 10:48 AM, Thomas Graves said:
  On 12/6/2014 at 1:03 PM, Thomas Graves said:
  On 12/6/2014 at 0:01 PM, Thomas Graves said:
  On 12/5/2014 at 3:35 PM, Bill Simpich said:

I made a mistake when I posted this a year ago - can someone blow it up for me? This set of photos dated Oct 2 1963, at 12:05 pm, taken at,the Soviet consulate minutes before the so-called Mystery Man, at numbers 6 and 7, shows the man looking like Witt listed as "LEON",

https://www.maryferrell.org/mffweb/archive/viewer/showDoc.do?docId=4490&relPageId=3

Could "Leon" be short for "Nikolai Leonov", the third consul who is in the russian parliament today?

The two photos in the top half of this page are blow-ups of Leon looked at by HSCA - some thought he looked like LHO

Here is a picture of Leonov during this era.

For what it's worth, Leonov was a short blond man.

Oswald_in_Mexico_thin_blond.JPG

 

There are lots of photos of Nikolai Leonov on the internet.

Here's one showing Leonov interpreting for Castro and Khrushchev in Moscow.

Nikita+Kruschev,+Nikolai+Leonov+y+Fidel+

http://manchiviri.blogspot.com/2013/12/por-que-fracasaran-las-reformas-de-raul.html

Same ears.

Mystery solved.

--Tommy :sun

Regarding another blond guy photographed in Mexico City whom some researchers think was Claude Capehart, according to Bill Simpich this guy was probably the Mexican graphic designer Ernesto Lehfeld Miller. As it turns out, there is an Ernesto Lehfeld (whose mother was Doris Miller) on ancestry.com.

Maybe there are some photos of him there...

http://records.ancestry.com/ernesto_lehfeld_records.ashx?pid=187823779

The following 11/20/63 CIA document about Claude Barnes Capehart says he was 6'1", 220 lbs and that he was born in Okemah, Oklahoma, on October 15, 1924, making him 40 years of age at the time of the assassination. So evidently Capehart wasn't the short, thin, Mexico City "blond Oswald".

https://www.maryferrell.org/mffweb/archive/viewer/showDoc.do?docId=14179&relPageId=2

In case you missed it.....

Here's the short, blond, thin-faced guy who was secretly photographed by the CIA in Mexico City.

Oswald_in_Mexico_thin_blond.JPG

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nikolai_Leonov

And here's blond haired Nikolai Leonov interpreting for Castro and Khrushchev in Moscow.

He was usually in Mexico City.

Nikita+Kruschev,+Nikolai+Leonov+y+Fidel+

http://manchiviri.blogspot.com/2013/12/por-que-fracasaran-las-reformas-de-raul.html

Simpich was right. It wasn't Louis Witt in Mexico City, it was KGB officer Nikolai Leonov. Could this be the "blond Oswald" Cuban Consul Eusebio Azque encountered? He was 35 years old in 1963.

--Tommy :sun

bumped

Edited February 6, 2015 by Thomas Graves

Bill Simpich

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I'm pleased that I was able to successfully convey to you that Nikolai Leonov Is one of the two men in the 1978 HSCA photos.

Now I want to make it clear that the other blond-haired man in the HSCA photos is Ernesto Lehfeld Miller. His HSCA photo is depicted below.

mex_63_22.jpg

I will go to the Archives later this year and pull the documents, unless someone beats me to it.

The Duran family depositions and the photobook known as JFK Document 7549 (not at the Mary Ferrell website) make it complelely clear that the man in the 1978 HSCA photos who was photographed at the Cuban embassy on Sept. 26, 1963 is Miller.

Take a look at the CIA's photo strip of the Cuban embassy on Sept. 26. See Miller's photos shown in the fourth column, first two photos, marked "24" and "23"?

The CIA's log of the Sept 26 photos for items 23 and 24 states that Miller was sent from the Cuban embassy to the Cuban consulate.

Sylvia Tirado Duran also identified Miller as the man depicted as #26 and #27 in the aforementioned photo book 7549. Duran said that he was the architect and friend of her husband - "Ernesto Lefel" (that would be Ernesto Lehfeld Miller) (#26 and #27). He was the guy who used to borrow her husband's car.

--  Tommy :sun

Edited by Thomas Graves

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Tom - in the Hager story you may have missed this line:

The person he supposedly had an affair with in Mexico City later claimed the Oswald she slept with was short and blonde, probably the man photographed as Oswald outside the Cuban embassy.

I don't think he was actually saying those photos were of LHO. I think he's being sarcastic like yeah right THESE are LHO?

----------

Regarding the Hager article, what a great, great write-up! So many things in it are how I think too - the neat and tidy convenience of it all, including the cartridge cases at the Tippit scene as well as the wallet.  "Oswald" would have been the dumbest murderer in history to have done all of this :)

The end though is silly.  The Mary Meyer - LSD - and all of the other hokum.  It's amazing someone can be so on point at the beginning of a story and veer way off into never land.

Edited by Michael Walton

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Quote

Regarding the Hager article, what a great, great write-up!

Michael, if you search through the many years of past threads on this Forum, you'll find better reporting and analysis than Hager's, on these and other issues.  Joseph McBride's good work here is only the most recent consideration of the Tippit kill scene - there is excellent information and debate in the older threads, going back to at least 2005.

Edited by David Andrews

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The man Ruby killed was never in Mexico City

Every item of "evidence" getting him there and back was fabricated for that singular purpose.


Sylvia Odio and her sister could not have been more plain about who they saw - why else bury her story on 2 pages in the WCR with the final sentence being that it could not have been Oswald as he was en route to and/or in Mexico City. (p322 WCR http://www.history-matters.com/archive/jfk/wc/wr/html/WCReport_0173b.htm )

btw - if you want to see the Two Oswalds...  here you go.  One man is 5'10" 165lbs while the other is 5'8" 135lbs.  The shoulders give it away.

 

DJ

 

Edited by David Josephs

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2 hours ago, David Josephs said:

 

"... f you want to see the Two Oswalds...  here you go.  One man is 5'10" 165lbs while the other is 5'8" 135lbs.  The shoulders give it away." -- DJ

 

Dear Joseph,

Nope.  You got it wrong, again.

It was Robert Webster who was 5' 10" and weighed 165 lbs.  You know, the former Air Force guy who showed up in Moscow the same week as Lee Harvey Oswald, who facially resembled Oswald, and whose biometrics were "inherited" by Oswald, courtesy of FBI agent Fain's attributing them source-wise to Marguerite Oswald and his inserting them into his early 1960 "interview" of her (which "information", btw, quickly made its way to CIA's Russia Division and was, there, incorporated by Bill Bright into CIA's computerized Biological Registry)?

https://www.maryferrell.org/pages/State_Secret_Chapter1.html

Image result for "robert e webster"

--  Tommy :sun

Edited by Thomas Graves

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I've always been just a little leery about the Oswald double theory but the DJ photo, for me, is really starting to make me change my mind.  Every time I look at that, my mind struggles with it's got to be one person vs. the soldier on the right, though looking a lot like the arrested LHO on the left, does have different features.  The photo in upper left with marina, too, does look quite different than the one on the right.

When I found this photo a few year ago, it, too, got me thinking about this.  This look alike does look more like the one on the right, the stockier Oswald one than the arrested one:

LEE_at_CC.jpg

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On 12/16/2016 at 1:59 PM, Thomas Graves said:

Dear Joseph,

Nope.  You got it wrong, again.

It was Robert Webster who was 5' 10" and weighed 165 lbs.  You know, the former Air Force guy who showed up in Moscow the same week as Lee Harvey Oswald, who facially resembled Oswald, and whose biometrics were "inherited" by Oswald, courtesy of FBI agent Fain's attributing them source-wise to Marguerite Oswald and his inserting them into his early 1960 "interview" of her (which "information", btw, quickly made its way to CIA's Russia Division and was, there, incorporated by Bill Bright into CIA's computerized Biological Registry)?

https://www.maryferrell.org/pages/State_Secret_Chapter1.html

Image result for "robert e webster"

--  Tommy :sun

Dear Tommy,

Is it really that hard to spell my name correctly - it appears right there on the page...  :huh:

Regarding the two men in the image I posted... they are both referred to as Lee Harvey Oswald.  
Neither one is Robert Webster.

Lee Oswald was discharged in March 1959 - Harvey in September.
Santa Ana MCAB and El Toro MCAS are 2 different bases ... they are close to each other, but not that close.

Can you somehow relate Robert Webster to the image I posted, the 2 bases in CA and Gorsky's statements?

 

 

 

Edited by David Josephs

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22 minutes ago, David Josephs said:

Dear Tommy,

Is it really that hard to spell my name correctly - it appears right there on the page...  :huh:

Regarding the two men in the image I posted... they are both referred to as Lee Harvey Oswald.  
Neither one is Robert Webster.

Lee Oswald was discharged in March 1959 - Harvey in September.
Santa Ana MCAB and El Toro MCAS are 2 different bases ... they are close to each other, but not that close.

Can you somehow relate Robert Webster to the image I posted, the 2 bases in CA and Gorsky's statements?

Gorsky and the El Toro Santa Ana mixup.jpg

58-29.jpg

63-11-22 1963 v 1959 Oswald.jpg

Dear David,

The reason none of the young men / boys whose photos you have posted on this forum over the years are Robert E. Webster is because they're all Lee Harvey Oswald at different ages, you know, some showing him with baby fat, and others showing him with (gasp) muscles from his being in the Marine Corps (where they feed you well and make you do lots and lots push ups and chin-ups and that sort of thing), etc.

--  Grave :sun

 

PS  I ain't gonna go down your H&L rabbit hole.  You know why?  Because it stinks down there.

 

Edited by Thomas Graves

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On 12/16/2016 at 3:49 PM, Michael Walton said:

I've always been just a little leery about the Oswald double theory but the DJ photo, for me, is really starting to make me change my mind.  Every time I look at that, my mind struggles with it's got to be one person vs. the soldier on the right, though looking a lot like the arrested LHO on the left, does have different features.  The photo in upper left with marina, too, does look quite different than the one on the right.

When I found this photo a few year ago, it, too, got me thinking about this.  This look alike does look more like the one on the right, the stockier Oswald one than the arrested one:

LEE_at_CC.jpg

What many seem to forget is we are not talking about a single image or a single item of evidence.

In the work I did on Mexico City I start with the Summer of 1963.  If Tommy can address the multiple instances of Ruby and Lee being together in Dallas at the same time Harvey and Family is in New Orleans... have at it.

Additionally, when John Ely was tasked with compiling Oswald's bio, his primary source up to March 20, 1964 was LIFE magazine as he mentions in the memo to Leibeler followed by his note to Jenner after reviewing the info.

The fact the DoD claims he never actually went to Taiwan, Ping Tung while not only his Marine history puts him there but his CO at the time Donovan put him there.  This is also where a fellow marine was shot.  Oswald also appears on the Unit Diary for Ping Tung Oct 6, 1958.

On the evening of October 4th Harvey Oswald was assigned to guard duty at
Ping Tung. About midnight, Lieutenant Charles R. Rhodes (Lake City, SC) heard four
or five rifle shots coming from the direction of the position that Oswald was guarding.
He drew his .45 automatic and ran toward the clump of trees to see what had happened.
Lieutenant Rhodes found (Harvey) Oswald slumped against a tree, visibly shaking and
crying while holding his M-1 rifle across his lap.
Oswald told Rhodes that hesaw men in the woods, challenged them, and then
started shooting. Rhodes put his arm around Oswald's shoulder and slowly walked him
back to his tent. Rhodes remembered, "He (Oswald) kept saying he just couldn't bear
being on guard duty." Rhodes reported the incident to his commanding officer and
Oswald was allegedly sent to Japan for "medical treatment" two days later (Oct 6) by
military plane. 51 On October 6, Harvey Oswald and Peter Cassisi are listed on Marine
Corps Unit Diary #158-58 at Ping-Tung (North Taiwan).

(H&L-John Armstrong)

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited by David Josephs

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30 minutes ago, Michael Walton said:

I've always been just a little leery about the Oswald double theory but the DJ photo, for me, is really starting to make me change my mind.  Every time I look at that, my mind struggles with it's got to be one person vs. the soldier on the right, though looking a lot like the arrested LHO on the left, does have different features.  The photo in upper left with marina, too, does look quite different than the one on the right.

When I found this photo a few year ago, it, too, got me thinking about this.  This look alike does look more like the one on the right, the stockier Oswald one than the arrested one:

LEE_at_CC.jpg

Everyone looks "different" in different photographs taken of them at different times, under different lighting conditions, from different angles, with different cameras.

--  Tommy :sun

Edited by Thomas Graves

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On 12/16/2016 at 4:12 PM, Thomas Graves said:

Dear David,

The reason none of the young men / boys whose photos you posted are Robert E. Webster is because they're all Lee Harvey Oswald at different ages, you know, some showing him with baby fat, and others showing him with (gasp) muscles from his being in the Marine Corps (where they feed you well and make you do lots and lots push ups and chin-ups and that sort of thing), etc.

--  Grave :sun

 

The photos of the Marines in uniform are taken less than 6 months apart

The attached shows Oswald in images taken 1 week apart as well as the large necked Lee and the scrawny Harvey 10 months apart.

 

 

Edited by David Josephs

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On 12/16/2016 at 4:20 PM, David Josephs said:

The photos of the Marines in uniform are taken less than 6 months apart

The attached shows Oswald in images taken 1 week apart as well as the large necked Lee and the scrawny Harvey 10 months apart.

Oswald - Lee 1959 passport and Harvey DoD card and photo from 1 week after 1959 passport photo.jpg

Lee and Harvey 10 months apart.jpg

 

Dear David,

I'll just add these few final observations:  It seems to me that a lot of your H&L confusion arrises from the fact that there probably was at least one Oswald impersonator in the Dallas - Fort Worth area (and maybe even New Orleans) before the assassination.  That, and the fact that you conflate the FBI's and CIA's "barium meal" (Popov's Mole q.v.) intentional misinformation about Lee Harvey Oswald with an imaginary person in your ever-expanding "reality." You mistakenly believe (fervently, I might add) that all of this somehow "proves" the existence of a CIA project involving a Russian-speaking "Harvey Oswald" going back at least to 1959.  And then you really get carried away with your uhhhh ... let's call it imagination ... and you start finding some "really suspicious scat, man," like, way back in places like NYC and Montana (or some such huntin' and fishin' state), and it all makes so much sense, doesn't it, and it proves that our parents and all of the authority figures in our miserable little lives are evil, evil, evil, man, especially the CIA and the FBI, and I mean, like, all the time, man, and I can hardly stand it anymore!!!

LOL

I actually feel sorry for you, David.  But I also feel sorry for all those erstwhile students of the assassination whom you (and Armstrong, and ...) have unintentionally ... uh, ... sidetracked ... over the years.  

Carry on, dude.

--  Tommy :sun

PS  You never have explained how the bad guys were able to choose two biologically-unrelated adolescents so that they would grow up looking so much alike as did your oh-so precious "Lee" and "Harvey."  

So, let me guess what you're gonna say now.  -- You don't think they look "all that much alike," do you?  LOL

Edited by Thomas Graves

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IYHO, no doubt.  Here's the "opinion" of his brother

Mr. JENNER - I show you an exhibit, a series of exhibits, first Commission Exhibit No. 281 and Exhibit No. 282 being some spread pages of an issue of Life magazine of February 21, 1964. I direct your attention first to the lower lefthand spread at .the bottom of the page. Do you recognize the area shown there? 
Mr. PIC - No, sir. 
Mr. JENNER - Do you see somebody in that picture that appears to be your brother? 
Mr. PIC - This one here with the arrow. 
Mr. JENNER - The one that has the printed arrow? 
Mr. PIC - That is correct, sir. 
Mr. JENNER - And you recognize that as your brother? 
Mr. PIC - Because they say so, sir. 
Mr. JENNER - Please, I don't want you to say-- 
Mr. PIC - No; I couldn't recognize that. 
Mr. JENNER - Because this magazine says that it is. 
Mr. PIC - No, sir; I couldn't recognize him from that picture. 
Mr. JENNER - You don't recognize anybody else in the picture after studying it that appears to be your brother? When I say your brother now, I am talking about Lee. 
Mr. PIC - No, sir. 

 

Mr. JENNER - Then right below that is a picture of a young man standing in front of an iron fence, which appears to be probably at a zoo. Do you recognize that? 
Mr. PIC - Sir, from that picture, I could not recognize that that is Lee Harvey Oswald. 
Mr. JENNER - That young fellow is shown there, he doesn't look like you recall Lee looked in 1952 and 1953 when you saw him in New York City? 
Mr. PIC - No, sir. 
Mr. JENNER - Commission Exhibit No. 284 do you recognize anybody in that picture that appears to be Lee Oswald? 
Mr. PIC - No, sir. 

The image on the right is Oswald in Oct 6th grade.  The boy at the zoo is taken 18 months later in Aug after his 7th grade in NYC.
How does a 5'4" 115lb incoming 7th grader become a 4'10" 90lb kid 10 months later?

Mr. JENNER - Exhibit No. 287 is two figures, taking them from top to bottom and in the lower right-hand corner, do you recognize those? 
Mr. PIC - No, sir; I don't. 
Mr. JENNER - Neither one of them? 
Mr. PIC - No, sir. The lower one appears to me to look like Robert rather than Lee. The upper one, unless they tell me that, I would never guess that that would be Lee, sir. 
Mr. JENNER - All right. Exhibit No. 288, there is ill the lower left-hand corner, there is a reproduction of a service card and a reproduction, also, of a photograph with the head of a man. Do you recognize that? 
Mr. PIC - That looks to me approximately how Lee Oswald looked when I seen him Thanksgiving 1962. 
Mr. JENNER - Directing your attention to Exhibit, Commission Exhibit No. 289, do you recognize any of the servicemen shown in that picture as your brother Lee? 
Mr. PIC - No, sir; I do not recognize them. 
Mr. JENNER - Exhibit No. 290, the lower left-hand corner there is a photograph of a young lady and a young man. Do you recognize either of those persons? 
Mr. PIC - He appears to me as Lee Harvey Oswald in 1962 when I seen him. 

 

 

 

Edited by David Josephs

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On 12/16/2016 at 4:31 PM, Thomas Graves said:

 

Dear David,

I'll just add these few final observations:  It seems to me that a lot of your H&L confusion arrises from the fact that there probably was at least one Oswald impersonator in the Dallas - Fort Worth area (and maybe even New Orleans) before the assassination.  That, and the fact that you, imho, 1 ) have a tendency to forget that the same person can look quite different when photographed at different times, under different lighting conditions, from different angles, with different cameras, with or without a smile on their face, with or without a fresh haircut, etc., 2 ) you have a tendency to misconstrue and misinterpret typographical and other all-too-human errors in documents, 3 ) have a tendency to lend way too much credence to "witnesses'" long-term memories, and 4 ) you have a tendency to conflate the FBI's and CIA's "barium meal" (Popov's Mole q.v.) intentional misinformation about Lee Harvey Oswald with an imaginary person in your ever-expanding "reality." You mistakenly believe (a bit too fervently for me, I might add) that all of this somehow "proves" the existence of a very long-term and complicated CIA Project involving a Russian-speaking "Harvey Oswald" of Hungarian parentage going back at least to 1959.  And then you really get carried away with your uhhhh ... let's call it imagination ... and you and John start finding some "really suspicious stuff, man," like, way back in places like NYC and Montana (or some such huntin' and fishin' state), and it all makes so much sense, doesn't it, and it proves that our parents and all of the authority figures in our miserable little lives are evil, evil, evil, man, especially the CIA and the FBI, and I mean, like, all the time, man, and I can hardly stand it anymore!!!

LOL

I actually feel sorry for you, David.  But I also feel sorry for all those erstwhile students of the assassination whom you (and Armstrong, and ...) have unintentionally ... uh, ... sidetracked ... over the years.  

--  Tommy :sun

PS  You never have explained how the bad guys were able to choose two biologically-unrelated adolescents so that they would grow up looking so much alike as did your oh-so precious "Harvey" and "Lee".

So, let me guess what you're gonna say now.  -- "Well, Thomas, I don't think they look all that much alike.  Just enough alike to, you know, fool a buncha people, but different enough for me and John to tell them apart." 

bumped

Edited by Thomas Graves

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